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Using The Force Made Easy

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I can't hear those character names without thinking of the role they played in The Desert Storm, which is leading me to wonder how John Kesel and "Ben Naasade" would get along. Their discussions would be lively, at minimum.
 
One of the younglings would most likely ask why he's adding so much competition for Padawan spots.

Also I would think some mothers would ask why they kidnapped her baby if anyone can learn it.
 
Flaamwing said:
One of the younglings would most likely ask why he's adding so much competition for Padawan spots.

Also I would think some mothers would ask why they kidnapped her baby if anyone can learn it.
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"We would never kidnap children! We always ask for permission, and nobody can prove otherwise! No, we don't ever require signatures on legal documents because we convinced the Senate to pass a law, why do you ask?"
 
Lycanthromancer said:
"We would never kidnap children! We always ask for permission, and nobody can prove otherwise! No, we don't ever require signatures on legal documents because we convinced the Senate to pass a law, why do you ask?"
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They actually DO NOT kidnap children, though. The 'Baby Ludi' case was noted to be a bizarre outlier that is implied to have only got as big as it did because Palpatine needed it to.
 
Lycanthromancer said:
"We would never kidnap children! We always ask for permission, and nobody can prove otherwise! No, we don't ever require signatures on legal documents because we convinced the Senate to pass a law, why do you ask?"
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The Truth of Jedi Recruitment by
SilverTonguedSlytherin1

The Truth of Jedi Recruitment - SilverTonguedSlytherin1 - Star Wars - All Media Types [Archive of Our Own]

An Archive of Our Own, a project of the Organization for Transformative Works
archiveofourown.org
 
Prince Charon said:
They actually DO NOT kidnap children, though. The 'Baby Ludi' case was noted to be a bizarre outlier that is implied to have only got as big as it did because Palpatine needed it to.
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They don't...
But, what we know paints an image that seems to show that anyone looking into Republic laws and such knows that legally, they could easily take custody of the child. This isn't the first time this topic came up.
Themarineguy said:
...Honestly, the mind tricks are completely unnecessary if the jedi wanted to push things, if I remember correctly, by law they don't even need to bother asking for any sort of permission, which may or may not be there to fuel such rumors, which may also be perpetuated by certain jedi convinced that not having them receive training in the jedi way would put everyone at risk. Though there seems to be no solid evidence of such things happening, though not hard to see happening.
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So It might happen if legends is right, or it might not if it's just a sith plot. But either way, I can easily see a mother missing her child and "remembering" it as the Jedi stealing it due to festering resentment. Especially with the sith pushing that view of things. Which means I still think it's a valid question that someone would ask.
 
Its likely one more point where the extensive EU canon contradicts itself in places, because while the old EU was better planned and coordinated than many others, it was still far from perfect in that regard.
 
In this case, I think it's more along the lines of "You can not bring your pig to the bar on Saturday" type laws. That is, once WAY in the past a Jedi had to either rescue a child or found a child who was already channeling the Dark Side, and they had the law added to help prevent problems in the future.

Skip ahead 2000 years when noone really remembers the details, or might not even know that law is on the books. Can we say PR nightmare? :)
 
Prior to Karin(sp?) Traviss being set loose on the old Canon with her goddamned soapbox this wasn't any kind of debate.

Jedi approach the parents of children with strong force connections who are still young enough.

Approach.

Key word there. The parents have/had no legal obligation to say yes.

It was a plot point in the pre clone wars meta arc once upon a time that The Jedi would have a hard time filling out creches some years. Precisely because parents weren't willing to give up their children.

Their other method were the same as any other monastic order. They'd adopt force sensitive children who wound up in-the-system for whatever reason. (Orphaned, home removal, etc.)
 
Álli Méra said:
It was a plot point in the pre clone wars meta arc once upon a time that The Jedi would have a hard time filling out creches some years. Precisely because parents weren't willing to give up their children.
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The inability to rely on the likelihood of Force sensitivity being inherited probably didn't help, what with the prohibition against Coruscant Jedi having families.
 
When someone can mind-control you with a wave of the hand, thinking they might have "convinced" you to give up a child when you suddenly regret it afterwards is pretty likely.
 
Sure. And even in the old Canon that was one of the wedges palpatine used to turn the citizens of The Republic against the Jedi.

The problem is the fanbase has turned it into an incredibly enduring peice of fanon based off the writings of one author with a horrible trackrecord for derailing properties she writes in.
 
Old Canon, New Canon, Crap(Disney) Canon....

They all have parts that are stupid or break the rest of the details. Some groups are worse than others.

I have rants, and I have complaints, and I have "WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT" moments, but none of them are worth derailing the thread about.
Because this is Fencer's story, and Fencer's canon. :) We need to figure out what specific choices are for this story.
 
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Are the Jedi Kidnappers?
  • Informational
    • GamingGeek said:
    Old Canon, New Canon, Crap(Disney) Canon....

    They all have parts that are stupid or break the rest of the details. Some groups are worse than others.

    I have rants, and I have complaints, and I have "WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT" moments, but none of them are worth derailing the thread about.
    Because this is Fencer's story, and Fencer's canon. :) We need to figure out what specific choices are for this story.
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    Ehhhh *wiggles hand back and forth* don't get me wrong I don't want to see the thread dissolve into a massive fight about which canon is the most canon or whatever. But as I've said before my exposure to the wider star wars universe is pretty limited and I've ranted more than a few times about stupid decisions and inconsistencies. But that does mean discussion like this exposes me to new ideas facts and concepts, which I can often incorporate. For example this fic would be 90% less interesting if I hadn't stumbled across the Matukai in a couple of other stories and got to thinking.

    you are absolutely correct when you say that this fic is running on my own version of canon. It has to. The way the Force works especially given John's decidedly grey approach and how contradictory the wiki is.

    And if we are digging into poorly explained/defined/explored background info? Ohh you had better believe I'm making decisions that work for the story that don't necessarily conform. And there are actually bits I made up on the fly I'd like to go back and edit for more realistic statistics now that I've had so much time to sit on them and think about it but the core concept would stay the same regardless.

    For example the Jedi order do not successfully recruit every youngling. In medieval times giving your kid to monks to raise might have guaranteed them education and food. During the Sith Wars it was probably the only chance the kid had for not being some Sith's apprentice. but in the current time period on even moderately developed planets? Public school and an average job guarantee the same thing and you don't have to give your kid up.

    Luke despite being incredibly Force sensitive made it into his late teens just fine with no training. Leia didn't have any problems either. The Jedi could claim otherwise to parents, but the facts don't support it. I have no trouble imaging a lot of parents telling the Jedi to shove it and the kids growing up to lead normal lives where luck and skill seam to favor them. Which is a big chunk of John's target audiance.

    On the other hand, while I'm sure jedi can and do accept being told no, there is a definite trend or at least subgroup who have superiority complexes and holier than thou attitudes. I don't even have to try to imagine someone like that pulling out every manipulative argument and stance they can think of while speaking with absolute calm and certainty until some parents cave. Or if someone like that found a kid in a loving home, where a single parent is struggling to make ends meet, and the neighborhood is bad?

    "How could I leave a child so strong in the Force in such an environment? It would all but guarantee their eventual fall and even an untrained Force adept falling to the Dark Side could cause untold harm. For the good of the child, and the community it is my duty to rescue them from this fate. Why else would the Force have led me to them?"

    So on the question of child kidnapping jedi my official stance is that it's uncommon. Partly because most listen when told no. Partly because they've been practicing their arguments and justifications for generations so they can convince some of the ones who initially say no. But it does sometimes happen on backwater planets or neighborhoods where a kid disappearing could have a number of much worse explanations.
     
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    • And then of course there's a small number of individuals who pull this crap but would really rather not.

    But they do so anyway, because the Order is dying out, and to some that supersedes their principles.
     
    Leechblade said:
    And then of course there's a small number of individuals who pull this crap but would really rather not.

    But they do so anyway, because the Order is dying out, and to some that supersedes their principles.
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    Actually I find that argument unlikely. Not impossible but unlikely. the idea that the order is already on the decline is something I've mostly seen as an outside observation. Or something someone suddenly realizes as a turning point for a fanfic. Internally I doubt they've come to that conclusion. Unless your suggesting John's video's have already or will apply the kind of pressure it would take to make someone think that way. But that's a good long way down the road and unlikely to go well once the whole order is under a microscope as the public really starts looking at them with the space wizard aura stripped away as the Force becomes less and less an unknown.
     
    Leechblade said:
    But they do so anyway, because the Order is dying out, and to some that supersedes their principles.
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    The Order isn't dying out. In this period it's as large as it's ever been, and they have more candidates than they can train. (At least in their preferred 1 on 1 apprenticeship system.)

    The Order doesn't need to get pushy about recruitment; they seem to have more than enough recruits.
     
    Leechblade said:
    Frankly I'm surprised that the Jedi hadn't come to that realization themselves in Canon.
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    eh, have a kid less in each class every decade on average... way to slow a decline for anyone to really react, but by the time of the clone wars, there is ALOT less kids then it was when Yoda was a youngling.

    have a 1 to 1 ratio of knight to Padawan... some die, or don't make it.... pretty much every single Padawan spot is always filled, with a small amount waiting and looking for someone suitable. so we can't accept more, or turn down the required training... training that takes several years, probably over a decade if Obi Wan in episode 1 is an indication. Soo every master who doesn't live for centuries (and those races are very much a minority) only get to train a select few Padawan maximum... i don't see it being very common to train more than, say, 2-4 padawans. and that is counting padawan that don't make it to knight... all you need is to have padawans and masters die of faster than you get new knights to decline even faster as the amount of padawan slots slowly shrink. but every slot is still full, so what is that decline you are talking about, we have a near 100% filling of all training slots at all time...
     
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    TaliesinSkye said:
    The Order isn't dying out. In this period it's as large as it's ever been, and they have more candidates than they can train. (At least in their preferred 1 on 1 apprenticeship system.)

    The Order doesn't need to get pushy about recruitment; they seem to have more than enough recruits.
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    An organization can be dying out while still gaining loads of new members. The fact that the candidates who don't get trained are just kind of neglected and eventually sent to become farmers is a good sign of how the Order is dying out.
     
    There used to be Jedi Temples all over the place. Now only Coruscant and Corellia have one, not counting the caves on Ilum, and they don't talk to each other very much. So yeah, the Order's slowly dying out.
     
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