The Froggy Ninja
The Blade Will Never Die
I mean, the entire premise of the Rule of Two was predicated on chronic backstabbing. Just two maniacs, driving each other to be more and more murderous and treacherous.
Using The Force Made Easy
- Thread starter Fencer
- Start date
- Sci-Fi
lancelot
Completely worth it
What I'm saying is that one of these idiots should have put a base self destruct on a dead man switch as a 'how dare you kill me before I'm prepared to die' fuck you. Or something along those lines at least.
Bane and whoever that girl was did it as it was supposed to go. Bane teaches the crazy bitch everything he knows. Tells her so, and then they fight to the death. She wins she goes on, he wins and he finds another to teach.
Never mind outside influence, between Masters refusing to teach certain things as a ace in the hole, and apprentices finding ways to assassinate their masters well before their ready. Have this go on for a 1000 years and they never should have lasted as long as they did.
Neruz
Rogue Spiderbanana
- Location
- The Land of Fire and Poison
For all the people pointing out how much smaller the Jedi are now than they used to be, do keep in mind that as per the Ruusan Reformation a significant downsizing of the Jedi was intentional.
The Jedi Lords scared the ever-loving shit out of the political types in the galaxy due to their combination of personal and political power, a substantial amount of the Ruusan Reformation was basically about the Jedi promising that they wouldn't do the whole 'Lord' thing anymore and in fact would disarm and downsize, as now that the Sith threat was dealt with forever and would definitely never ever return the Jedi had no need to be a militant order, nor was there any requirement for thousands of Knights.
So yes, the Jedi are lesser than they used to be (mostly, some sects like the Green Jedi are exactly the same as they have always been for example), and they are fully well aware of this because they did it deliberately. Many of the Jedi, especially the ones pushing the Consular classes over the Guardian and Sentinel classes, would thus argue that the Order is not dying out at all, it has simply adapted to an era without the threat of the Sith or the need for warrior Jedi.
(They would be wrong of course, but they don't know that.)
Also keep in mind that from the perspective of the Coruscanti Jedi, they are responsible for the last 1000 years of peace and prosperity. They would tell you that their methods are clearly working extremely well, because since the Reformation the Republic has had 1000 'uninterrupted' years of 'peace' (note my quotation marks), which demonstrably proves (to them) that they are on the right path.
And none of this is even getting into the subtle and unnoticed effect of the Dark Side Nexus under the Coruscant temple that is slowly eroding the Force sensitivity of the Jedi, because they were apparently stupid enough to not only build a temple on top of a Dark Side Nexus, but then forget that they had done that.
From an external, omnipotent view point it is very obvious that the Jedi Order is crumbling around itself, but from an internal, in-character view point only the hidden Baneite Sith are really aware of the true scale of how far the Jedi have unknowingly fallen.
e:
So yeah, the Baneite plot succeeded very much in spite of Bane's incredibly dumb methodology. It is not a coincidence that it took 1000 years for the Baneite Sith to accomplish anything, nor that it was ultimately Darth Vader who finally ended the line of succession, not a Jedi.
Compare what the Sith of the past could and did accomplish in much shorter lengths of time, to what the Baneites achieved, and it's no competition at all. The only thing the Baneites were actually good at doing was hiding from the Jedi, fortunately for them that was really all they needed to do.
The Jedi Lords scared the ever-loving shit out of the political types in the galaxy due to their combination of personal and political power, a substantial amount of the Ruusan Reformation was basically about the Jedi promising that they wouldn't do the whole 'Lord' thing anymore and in fact would disarm and downsize, as now that the Sith threat was dealt with forever and would definitely never ever return the Jedi had no need to be a militant order, nor was there any requirement for thousands of Knights.
So yes, the Jedi are lesser than they used to be (mostly, some sects like the Green Jedi are exactly the same as they have always been for example), and they are fully well aware of this because they did it deliberately. Many of the Jedi, especially the ones pushing the Consular classes over the Guardian and Sentinel classes, would thus argue that the Order is not dying out at all, it has simply adapted to an era without the threat of the Sith or the need for warrior Jedi.
(They would be wrong of course, but they don't know that.)
Also keep in mind that from the perspective of the Coruscanti Jedi, they are responsible for the last 1000 years of peace and prosperity. They would tell you that their methods are clearly working extremely well, because since the Reformation the Republic has had 1000 'uninterrupted' years of 'peace' (note my quotation marks), which demonstrably proves (to them) that they are on the right path.
And none of this is even getting into the subtle and unnoticed effect of the Dark Side Nexus under the Coruscant temple that is slowly eroding the Force sensitivity of the Jedi, because they were apparently stupid enough to not only build a temple on top of a Dark Side Nexus, but then forget that they had done that.
From an external, omnipotent view point it is very obvious that the Jedi Order is crumbling around itself, but from an internal, in-character view point only the hidden Baneite Sith are really aware of the true scale of how far the Jedi have unknowingly fallen.
e:
They fucked themselves over multiple times, and the final 'culmination' of the Baneite plot (ie; Sidious's Empire) was exactly the opposite of what Bane actually wanted. (Bane wanted an ever growing, ever evolving Sith, Sidious planned to make himself the immortal king forever and the only true Sith as a way of 'breaking' the Rule of Two.)
So yeah, the Baneite plot succeeded very much in spite of Bane's incredibly dumb methodology. It is not a coincidence that it took 1000 years for the Baneite Sith to accomplish anything, nor that it was ultimately Darth Vader who finally ended the line of succession, not a Jedi.
Compare what the Sith of the past could and did accomplish in much shorter lengths of time, to what the Baneites achieved, and it's no competition at all. The only thing the Baneites were actually good at doing was hiding from the Jedi, fortunately for them that was really all they needed to do.
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lancelot
Completely worth it
It doesn't become a full Dark Side Nexus until around the Vong era I believe or even later.
Neruz
Rogue Spiderbanana
- Location
- The Land of Fire and Poison
Huh. That is strange because I definitely remember that the reason the Temple had been built there was because it was a Dark Side Nexus; the theory being that the presence of so many Light Side Adepts (Jedi) would influence the Nexus and 'tip' it towards Light. In fact I could have sworn I remember it being referenced as an outright Sith Shrine that the Jedi built on top of...
Yeah, here we go:
Tarkin said:
I've also found references claiming that 'Before his death Nyax imbued his hate and despair on the sacred spire, muddying the Force energies emanating from its peak.' Which is I think what you were thinking of, and doesn't really say much about the Nexus itself: Only that Nyax made it worse.
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- Location
- Wisconsin
I always believed that the Sith cheat without remorse or hesitation, because they believe the ability to do something is enough justification to do it.
They ALL think they are better than the Rule of Two, and so cheat, everyone (including the more advanced Apprentices) has a spare Secret Apprentice or two laying around just waiting for the spare to surpass and kill the primary, or for the primary to get his ass killed trying to become the Master.
Each one of the spares (those aware of the other Apprentice) think they are the primary or true Apprentice and the other one is just being taught enough to die to some threat the Master wants dead.
Edit: That's not even counting the ones created as a weapon, with no intention of making them a real part of the Sith. Here is your lightsaber, this is how to Force, kill that guy and I'll teach you more, eventually.
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Lordamnesia
What are we doing again?
You, my friend, earn all the internet cookies on the plate. I've argued this point over and over on other SW stories, and it feels GOOD to see someone else get it!
Although, I'm going to expand on it a little so people really get what your saying:
When the Ruusan Reformation was written and implemented, the Republic was made up of JUST the Core Worlds. The Neo-Sith Empire had basically conquered the galaxy expect these heavily fortified worlds, and were slowly gearing up to smash them. Combat Jedi's basically got fed up waiting around on Coruscant, took Jedi starfighters, and infiltrated enemy territory. They successfully liberated various worlds / systems / regions, all by their lonesome (because the force likes balance questionmark?!?). And then the worlds / systems / regions rose up, and slowly defeated the invicible Neo-Sith Empire, in a cumulate battle that literally destabilized a Nebula, trapping all the souls of the force users in a single temple.
So you have the Core Worlds, who have always considered the rest of the Republic THEIRS, see that Jedi CAN and WILL conquer world / systems / regions, all - by - their- lonesome. So politicians do what politicians do: Fuck everything up, trying to aleviate their fears. Suddenly, Jedi can't marry. Jedi have to follow one code. All force users now answer to the Coruscanti Jedi. Jedi can't rule planets.
What's worse, is that no one dissagreed with these new laws. Because everyone that would have, and could have pointed out how dumb that was had left, fought the Sith, and died. All that's left of the Jedi are the Secular Monks who had no problem with these new rules, because they already followed them for the most part! And well, they are the surviving Jedi, why shouldn't their views become ascendant?
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Neruz
Rogue Spiderbanana
- Location
- The Land of Fire and Poison
I mean, the core of the Sith doctrine is basically 'with enough power I can do anything I want and no-one can stop me' plus 'the Force has the power I need and all I have to do is take it' when you boil it down to its essence, so yeah. That is pretty much correct.
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The hoax version of the experiment is the correct format in this instance.
The Jedi Order was being drugged by centuries of Sith manipulations, and was ultimately lobotomized (the final blinders between The Order and the Civil Service Adepts) during Darth Plagueis's lifetime.
Palpatine himself was impatient enough to willingly fuck over centuries of work by "realizing" a large enough fire surrounding the boiling pot will kill the frog anyways; either it jumps out into the fire or it hides in the water.
Ultimately, Palpatine's "contribution" to the plan of his ancestors was tricking a drugged and lobotomized frog into hurgling itself over the edge of the frying pan, its head in the fire and it's legs In the water, stuck in place by the skin of the frog's belly burning to the metal edge of the pot.
- Location
- The Temple of the Winds
The Rule of two has less to do with actually making the Sith survive and/or thrive in this harsh time of Jedi dominance and more with giving Darth Bane the chance for total control over the Sith.
This might be a late response, but remember that according to Lucas the Coruscant Jedi were NOT a celibate order - they were against relationships, not sex or reproduction. So it's canon that Jedi could have one night stands all they want.
The Corellian order on the other hand was pro-family, they wanted their knights to have large families that never left their world
Had Anakin and Padame just had a 'ships in the night' type relationship, then they could have been public. Or if Anakin decided to swap to the Green Order, he could have been openly married. These are things that were suppose to be known to anyone in the order.
Because IMO, that's one way that the Jedi Order knew where to find Force Sensitive kids, they just look for previous hook-ups.
Your view of the order may differ. But again, IMO, given that it's canon that they weren't a celibate monastic order... That many Jedi were super attractive... Well, just saying.
- Location
- Toronto, Ontario(occasionally)
Of course, this runs into questions of what counts as a crime.
The Jedi answer to the Senate and have been operating long enough that the stuff they do should have legal precedent. There is probably a legal document somewhere which makes them drafting kids legal, and when they accept a no they're just being nice guys/ignorant of the law.
Álli Méra
Sometimes I forget my name
Attractive and extremely athletic. That's a big one.
Xexilf
Oblivion Sempiternum Daemonis
Ive looked up one of the Later EU works, "The Jedi Path", and while its real annoying that i cant copy the text directly, therein is claimed:
1. The Jedi have the legal right to take Children (with apparently some jedi masters arguing that having force sensitivity constitutes consent to join even in infants).
2. That such things sometimes happen and give jedi a bad reputation.
3. But apparently also cases where they back of because of hostile reception, though they may come back with a different approach.
It has nothing like statistics or anything how often such things are, and the way its written suggests watsonian that whoever wrote the specific passages was a rather pompous ass, i feel. I can defnitely see some of the worst head-stuck-up-their-ass jedi masters raising arguments like under point 1.
...
Found a quotable version. Heres some critical bits
1. The Jedi have the legal right to take Children (with apparently some jedi masters arguing that having force sensitivity constitutes consent to join even in infants).
2. That such things sometimes happen and give jedi a bad reputation.
3. But apparently also cases where they back of because of hostile reception, though they may come back with a different approach.
It has nothing like statistics or anything how often such things are, and the way its written suggests watsonian that whoever wrote the specific passages was a rather pompous ass, i feel. I can defnitely see some of the worst head-stuck-up-their-ass jedi masters raising arguments like under point 1.
...
Found a quotable version. Heres some critical bits
Asking because you people seem to know the lore and because I've been browsing comments.
What were the limits of the Jedi Mind Trick? Could it have been used to convince parents to give up their children to the Jedi order, parents who wavered, parents who would not consider it and / or parents who were actively against it? I'm asking because of how Fencer said it was something he saw as uncommon for the story, and because when I looked up the Baby Ludi custody case and People's Inquest on Wookieepedia it came up and seemed quite a powerful tool for those who see themselves as in the right if they decide that a child belongs in the Jedi Order.
What were the limits of the Jedi Mind Trick? Could it have been used to convince parents to give up their children to the Jedi order, parents who wavered, parents who would not consider it and / or parents who were actively against it? I'm asking because of how Fencer said it was something he saw as uncommon for the story, and because when I looked up the Baby Ludi custody case and People's Inquest on Wookieepedia it came up and seemed quite a powerful tool for those who see themselves as in the right if they decide that a child belongs in the Jedi Order.
Xexilf
Oblivion Sempiternum Daemonis
I dont think there are hard limits really, more a sliding scale of difficulty. But from a jedi master trained in such things, against a non force sensitive without exceptional willpower or some such, presumably even very disliked actions could be managed.
And it isn't permanent, so it would certainly help breed resentment if someone done that...
...Yeah, the Jedi kinda hobbled themselves thanks to an alliance between the secular monk side of the order and the politicians. I mean, the everything about the Russan Reformation changes also happened to help cement their group as ascendant and endlessly kneecapping the rise of any potential opposition that disagrees with their viewpoint. Which, wound up being EXACTLY the problem in the prequel trilogy, where those efforts threatened to tear the order apart.
Not permanent? Wookieepedia seems to imply that it was more often permanent than not, and even gave an example.
"Should the trick succeed, he or she then agreed to whatever was being said to them without being able to think for themselves. Moments later, they would feel puzzled about their new opinion, but usually didn't feel like changing it back."
"During this same time, Qui-Gon used the mind trick to convince a pushy Sebulba to wait outside while he talked with Watto after the Boonta Eve Race and later to make a cruel slave owner give his slaves water and to never harm them"
Is it different in the books or is this one of those things where the lore contradicts itself?
....Honestly, I am not really deeply familiar with the lore. And I may have underestimated the mind trick.😅
Damn scary stuff... And according to Wookieepedia it could be used on groups... And across interstellar distances... Forget Force Lightning, this is what Darksiders should be concentrating on.
Of course, Mind Trick is effective and Force Lightning is flashy...
Of course, Mind Trick is effective and Force Lightning is flashy...
On Jedi celibacy.
Fencer
Writer
- Location
- 2nd shift
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Right this argument keeps cropping up and I think I've addressed it a few times already but what the hell. Lets go again.
The jedi are not required to be celibate. This is fact and I am well aware. But this runs right into the teeth of more than a few issues. The Jedi, any jedi I've ever seen on screen, do not strike me as the kind to go chasing one night stands. For a lot of reasons.
The jedi's primary duties are negotiators and bodyguards at this time. With less common instances of doing things like leading raids on things like pirates or human traffickers. As a negotiator someone showing up and trying to sex you up is a potential spy looking to get info out of you while you are blissed out and distracted. As a bodyguard they would be a potential distraction from your duties and might even have been sent by an assassin to separate you from the target. For combat missions? Well maybe if it's a joint op with non jedi but they certainly wouldn't want to do the dirty with someone they'd see on the regular because that would open the door for attachment, force forbid. When not on missions most Jedi stay in the temple and I've just outlined the reason they'd shy away from partnering with each other.
Temperament and morality. I am not saying there is anything wrong with one night stands between consenting adults. But there can be expectations there on either side that a night like that means something more and that is not a complication a jedi wants to deal with. Further sex is an intimate act. It urgh how best to phrase this…. For a lot of people it makes a connection. Maybe it's just thinking fondly of that person/night, maybe it's wanting to keep them close and get to know them better, but it has an impact and attachments are forbidden.
Jedi for all their many issues tend to feel at least personal responsibility….. well… ok not Jinn because the fucker just left Shmi and screwed up by the numbers with Obi-Wan. But can you imagine Obi-Wan's reaction if he found out he left someone to be a single parent with no emotional or financial support? Or the kinds of issues it might cause if the temple got semi regular calls from single mothers demanding child support from the deadbeats who knocked them up and were gone before dawn?
And that's just for the guys. Let's talk about the ladies. You are a smoking hot female jedi, your mission is complete and there was the hottest guy at the local cantina who didn't even notice your lightsaber because he's too busy staring at your legs and wouldn't you know it one thing led to another and now…. Oops.
Seriously think about it. I'm not going to pick a fight on the morality of abortion in the current political climate, I am not fucking crazy. But I'd bet my front teeth Jedi are pro life. So that young lady now has to make a decision. If they decide to carry the baby to term, fucks sake. the kid is growing inside them, that at least in the later months they would be able to feel developing in the Force. The connection between mother and kid is normally something new mothers would kill to protect, and now this woman has to give her baby up so that she won't be attached. Lets say it's even possible. What woman would want to risk putting herself through that. Especially one who thinks failing to give up the kid means they have failed… basically everything they've been raised to be and believe. It's so much simpler to just not risk it.
And imagine if the kid is Force sensitive which they probably are and KNOW what mommy feels like and suddenly mommy is gone. I don't know anything about child psychology but I'd bet that would have an impact and I know it's just needlessly cruel to the child.
All of these things create a stigma, a culture, where sex is discouraged as a matter of course. And in a culture like that there are added complications as well. A padawan is by and large supposed to stick with there master. The master indulging in a one night stand would send a message to the padawan that it is acceptable and if the master is responsible in this culture they'll want to avoid doing that. Likewise the padawan will not want to disappoint or anger their master by doing something so discouraged. Which means the most likely time jedi sex happens is solo missions. So not until they are knights or masters when the expected behavior is already engrained.
I am not saying one night stands don't happen. That would be a dumb argument. Of course they happen. But in a culture that views attachments as a potentially deadly flaw things which lead to attachment are going to be discouraged. It's a distraction from your duty, it's not fair to your partner, it's a potential road to the dark side. Allowed on paper sure, but discouraged at every turn. And you get enough generations of a culture like that going it becomes institutionalized to the point where the ones who don't question things think that the only reason it's not a rule is because it's so damn obvious they shouldn't need to write it down. And in that sort of climate anyone who "slips up" is going to keep that fact as quite as they can which only perpetuates the culture.
Justforkicks
I'm just here to have fun and stuff.
Obi-Wan and Satine totally bumped uglies.
Enthusiast#117
This is not the Profile you are looking for
- Location
- United States
I think it's worth noting that quite a bit of that seems specific to the role of being a Jedi Knight in particular. The high-profile Jedi Knights are caught up in deadly politics and criminal cases on the regular, which isn't a good environment for romance or raising any produced kids.
Other branches of the Jedi, like the agricorp, the explorers, the librarians, and the healers likely live different sorts of lives, and so the expectations may be different.
Operating as a Knight would often involve long stretches where it's just You, the Force and the Mission, while a librarian likely never moves very far from their support network.
The bits about attachment may be more universal, but I still would expect the standards to be higher for Knights. Having a psychological weakness (attachment) is so much more dangerous for Knights, exactly because they operate more or less alone.
I think part of what makes the Correlian Jedi work is likely the fact that they restrain their focus to a smaller area, and are integrated with law-enforcement, instead of ranging out alone. It gives them more of a support network.
Anakin is proof that even abstinence is not 100% effective when the Force wants that baby to exist.
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To be fair to Jinn, he may've accepted that he would not be able to pull out Shmi Skywalker as well if he rescued Anakin, and Anakin was very much his focus there, and he was from all appearances an able if unorthodox master of the Force who trained one of the best Jedi Knights the contemporary Jedi Order saw. Obi-Wan's later by the book approach to teaching his Padawan when he is himself noted to have been a very unorthodox youngling may well have been a desperate attempt to cope with the responsibility of being Anakin's parental figure after Qui-gon Jinn's death, especially since Anakin has just been uprooted from everything he knew and the man that did it while promising him a better life just got murdered.
Not to say Jinn didn't fuck up. Just that one of the problems is that Jinn died unexpectedly.