Transposition, or: Ship Happens [Worm/Aoki Hagane no Arpeggio | Arpeggio of Blue Steel]

It's not independent motion, it's movement relative to her. Don't ask me why it's like that, haha, but in canon anything involving flight like that had to be cobbled together (such as Hyuuga's anti-grav platform). It seems like the two options for the Klein field's expressions are "anchored to fixed location in space" or "anchored relative to my position"

In that case, what if she created a Klein field anchored to her position, then pushed off of it? By Newton's third law, the force she exerted on the field, pun not intended, would result in an equal force being exerted in her. Furthermore, since the field is anchored to her, she never gets further from it, which means that she can keep pushing on it.

TLDR: Relentless can use her Klein field as a Reactionless Drive.
 
In that case, what if she created a Klein field anchored to her position, then pushed off of it? By Newton's third law, the force she exerted on the field, pun not intended, would result in an equal force being exerted in her. Furthermore, since the field is anchored to her, she never gets further from it, which means that she can keep pushing on it.

TLDR: Relentless can use her Klein field as a Reactionless Drive.
Long story short: A field anchored to her can't be used that way. Just like putting two magnets together on a single platform won't result in propulsion.
 
I came out to my parents as queer when I was fifteen and they were like "uh-huh, yeah okay let's wait and see" (spoiler alert: nothing changed) and so I know exactly how frustrating it can be to be blown off simply because you're not seen as completely matured. However, there were also other things I completely changed my position and views on since then.

And shall we bet on you changing those positions ONLY while you were a teen? No? And there's the problem about exaggerating "teenager behaviour". People have a tendency to change more and faster during teenager years because most of the time, there's a lot happening to them then to cause it, but the reason for changing is usually not directly because they are teenagers either in age or development, but because of the situation.

However, that does not preclude the fact that adolescent are still developing. Complex cognitive behaviors such as metacognition are being formed. Social skills are more important than ever. Views of the world are transitioning from a very personal focus to one that is much larger and understands the indirect impact of actions rather than just the direct. Identity does not generally solidify and become static until late adolescence, even if portions of that identity are explored, characterized, and/or committed to.

Ah but here's the problem about thinking like that, it's based on the by now extremely obsolete view that the brain becomes more or less immutable later in life. And on the assumption that we don't do that before we become teens. Some do, some don't. Some do it AFTER they're teens. Some NEVER do it.

It wasn't my intention to imply that teenagers are any less complicated or have less developed thinking than adults, or that adults are any less able to have horrible decision-making and lack of planning and can be emotionally immature, so if it came off that way, I'm sorry.

Your writing is overall excellent and my arguments should in no way be taken as any form of critique against it. The funny thing here is that you already DO portray teens in writing as individuals and NOT as the stereotypical exaggerated teenager you said they must be shown as.
So you've effectively already disproved yourself there. :p
 
I'm just glad Amy isn't treated as a cute woobie waifu that unironically did nothing wrong nor as an irredemable psychopath in this fic, but as a complex character with both virtues and faults.

A character that's tired and so done with this shit, that scene was so amusing :lol:
 
Oh my bad, this is Worm Canon. Foreshadowed from the very beginning. Your point might still stand though, considering Worm gets the same complaint
Many people are taking that as Wildbow retroactively reinterpreting something that could be taken as something else (playing with Vicky's biology for example) in the worst way possible just to screw with his fandom that likes Amy, specifically the fanfic writers.

I am among those people and don't accept Ward as canon for a long laundry list of reasons, this being a minor footnote among them, though that speaks more of Ward than it does of how badly Amy was treated as a character.
 
I'm just glad Amy isn't treated as a cute woobie waifu that unironically did nothing wrong nor as an irredemable psychopath in this fic, but as a complex character with both virtues and faults.

A character that's tired and so done with this shit, that scene was so amusing :lol:
Is it weird that I've never actually seen this "cute woobie waifu" Panacea everybody seems to be rallying against? Whenever a fic brings her in, she tends to be "tired and so done with this shit" above all else.
 
It's more like her usually coming in contact with Taylor in some way and suddenly becoming this giggling schoolgirl who suddenly puts becoming BFF with Taylor as the most important thing to have happened to her, or something along those lines.
 
Many, many writers are not even bothering to include Ward canon because it is so toxic. And, well, stupid. The GrimDerp has no breaks in that story from what I've heard second or third hand.
So, you decry Ward as toxic and stupid without ever having read it? Don't you think that this position is more toxic and stupid then Ward could ever be? What if someone who would have enjoyed reading it is turned away by this propagation of unsubstantiated aspersions?
 
Is it weird that I've never actually seen this "cute woobie waifu" Panacea everybody seems to be rallying against? Whenever a fic brings her in, she tends to be "tired and so done with this shit" above all else.
It's definitely more common in older fics. These days, grumpy Amy is the meta, so to speak. :V

Anyway I'd ask everyone to stop losing their minds over Amy, but in my experience, that's impossible. v:
 
Many people are taking that as Wildbow retroactively reinterpreting something that could be taken as something else (playing with Vicky's biology for example) in the worst way possible just to screw with his fandom that likes Amy, specifically the fanfic writers.

I am among those people and don't accept Ward as canon for a long laundry list of reasons, this being a minor footnote among them, though that speaks more of Ward than it does of how badly Amy was treated as a character.

I dunno, the original text, paired with Wildboar pointing out each and every hint in the Reddit link above.. doesn't have the feel of reinterpretation. It just feels pretty ominous to me - He's got a history of well planned foreshadowing even in the stories people don't like. Even without him spelling it out, the description is definitely trying to hint towards something worse. Why would the hints be about changing Victoria if it's described in horrible detail later on?

But sexual assault though? That's definitely something an author would hint at while purposely never using the word "rape." Amy was planned from the very beginning to be a tragic villain.

(I am also worried the thread is about to get locked down because this is all very very off-topic, sorry ensou!)
 
This is a horribly overused and exaggerated stereotype which simply isn't real. It's real for a small minority which often ends up being considered more or less "bad" or "problematic", and it's partially real(as in one or more descriptor but not all and/or only to some limited extent) for many more, but it's not a universal truth.

I could give you lots of examples, but i'll just say, it's stereotype because it happens repeatedly and when it does it is very noticeable, making it seem more common than it is, not because it's true for all or even most people.
Yeah...given that the prefrontal cortex (which is commonly linked with preventing and controlling the behaviors ensou cited) is generally still developing until the age of 25, it's not an entirely unfounded stereotype. Sure, kids and teens can be and are often mature in specific areas, usually based on their experiences in life. Put a kid through the right experiences, and they'll mature in related areas more rapidly. However, that doesn't mean they're fully mature in all areas, nor that they're ready to be treated as adults in all areas of life.

I say this as someone who definitely had areas in which I was far more mature than my age indicated at pretty much every stage of my life. Still didn't stop me from being hormonally illogical in ways I simply wouldn't be now, back when I was a teenager. I had a pretty massive chip on my shoulder when I was younger. It didn't take much for me to write someone off as not being worth associating with or being nice to, and took not caring about what others (beyond my friends) thought of me to an extreme. Now? I hold doors for just about anyone, because why the hell not make someone else's day little better at the cost of fairly minor inconvenience for myself (which often gives me a little more time to listen to music in the bargain)? I don't necessarily care what strangers think of me, but I don't just write them off as not worth my time for looking at me funny, either.

Teens all have a lot of room to grow and improve, and are going to make mistakes. This is expected. If they exceed those expectations, excellent. If not? Well, they're teens. We cut them a bit of slack, for not having the experience, self-control, or maturity required to always respond to situations correctly.

Admittedly, Panacea's actions exceeds the boundaries our usual allowances for teenage hormones considerably, but there are other complicating factors in her case, including massive physical and mental strain. Given that the strain of the profession her powers forced her into can and does break mentally-balanced, fully-grown adults, I'd say the game was rigged against her long-term sanity from the start. Even if, from where some sit, it looks like a string of terrible actions and behaviors that qualifies as evil.

...I feel like I should work a joke about brain-surgery-by-bullet in here somewhere, just to round out the New Vegas reference, but I don't quite know how...
sigh*
Everything you state above is exaggerated to the point where if it was real, being a teenager would equal being legally insane or at least completely unaccountable for their own actions, ALWAYS, without exception(in reality it is the opposite, fancy that, just reduced liability). By the same logic, female teenagers should be considered adults about 20 days of the month, and then judged as a teen for 5-10 days per month until menopause. While males should be considered adolescents for forever, as we keep having far more hormones fluffing around ever since puberty starts. It also suggests that pre-pubertal children are more adult than teenagers.

And if it is true, why don't you explain why the MAJORITY of people going through adolescence does NOT behave like the stereotypical teenager? I can count on my fingers the number of people i have known in my 44 years that could be considered an "absolute mess of emotions, bad decisions, self-centric worldviews, and craziness" and still have several fingers left because that's the extreme outlier that is very rare.

As i already stated, the stereotype is based on a rather small minority, which gets noticed far more exactly because they stand out from the norm. While the average is to exhibit the stereotypical behaviour to SOME degree or partially in some ways.

Many teens argue with their parents, some rebel more or less, some DO get emotionally messed up, some make bad decisions etc etc.
But extremely few do it all to the point of "absolute mess".
And more importantly, none of those things are limited to teens but mostly to SITUATION, and if you're prone to any of them in your teens, you probably were prone to them BEFORE your teens and still are prone to them AFTER your teens as well.

Being a teenager CAN exaggerate things, but there is absolutely nothing guaranteeing that so happens and it's far more likely to be situational than biological. "Teenager" is NOT a binary thing of yes or no.
Also, changing personality usually has very little to do with "teenager", it tends to happen when something important or drastic happens, regardless if you're 5, 15 or 50 years old.
As someone who was a teenager slightly more recently...I feel you're half-right, and half-wrong, here. I wasn't much of a stereotypical teenager in a lot of ways. I did argue with my parents, but I did that before I was a teen, too. I'd always tried to be independent in my thought processes, even if I wasn't always the best at it. I'd also always liked looking at the big picture, and trying to solve problems. That never changed, even if I've gotten better at it over time.

But, in-retreospect, I was a pretty different person as a teen. Way too tightly wound, way more prone to taking offense, way more judgmental, way more emotionally volatile. Admittedly, some of that change was probably from having to deal with my physical health tanking at 16, forcing me out of school, and forcing me to reduce my stress levels. But some of that was probably my brain developing beyond that mindset.
And shall we bet on you changing those positions ONLY while you were a teen? No? And there's the problem about exaggerating "teenager behaviour". People have a tendency to change more and faster during teenager years because most of the time, there's a lot happening to them then to cause it, but the reason for changing is usually not directly because they are teenagers either in age or development, but because of the situation.

Ah but here's the problem about thinking like that, it's based on the by now extremely obsolete view that the brain becomes more or less immutable later in life. And on the assumption that we don't do that before we become teens. Some do, some don't. Some do it AFTER they're teens. Some NEVER do it.

Your writing is overall excellent and my arguments should in no way be taken as any form of critique against it. The funny thing here is that you already DO portray teens in writing as individuals and NOT as the stereotypical exaggerated teenager you said they must be shown as.
So you've effectively already disproved yourself there. :p
The brain might never be entirely immutable, but you're just flat out wrong that the idea that the brain isn't fully developed until around 25 is obsolete. Like...it's the current consensus. You can disagree with it all you like. Indeed, I encourage it. That is, after all, how science progresses. But your disagreement doesn't stop the consensus from being the consensus, either.

I fully agree, the brain is develops in response to the "situation"...but the situation is as much biochemical as it is anything else, and puberty has major biochemical and neurochemical consquences. If it didn't, I probably wouldn't have suddenly developed bipolar disorder as a teen, likely due to the genes I have that are linked with the disorder finally coming into play. We aren't shaped purely by nature, sure, but it ain't purely nurture, either. Yes, puberty and brain development isn't one-size fits all. Yes, there are outliers in pretty much every area of development. Yes, the "average human" is a purely statistical construct. So what? Averages and general trends still have utility in predicting general outcomes. So long as you treat them as a baseline only, and adjust your views of a person based on new data, they serve a useful function.

From the sounds of it, I think your issue is less with the general view of teens, and more in how people use it to look down on them, or to justify them making completely random decisions in fiction. Which I'll agree is stupid, and that viewpoint severely grated on my nerves when I was younger. People are people, no matter the age. People are individuals, and need to be treated as such. My parents treated me that way, and it's how I treat my younger brother's teenage friends. But I equally expect them to be a little volatile, emotionally, same as I am when my neurochemistry isn't being corrected by medication. Because they are just a touch insane, IMO, due to the hormonal storm of puberty. Not always, not even most of them time, and not all of them. But enough that I keep it in mind.

Puberty is significantly worse if you add in actual mental illnesses, too. It tends to exacerbate them significantly, and, typically, teens are still working on figuring out their own coping mechanisms, so it makes everything much more complicated, especially for those not being treated. Honestly, whoever the f*ck decided to throw a teen into one of the most mentally stressful professions in the world without a therapeutic safety net is a damn fool, and I blame them significantly more than I blame Panacea for her breakdown and the results of it. That she was the only person able to save the lives that she did doesn't excuse putting a teen into a profession that is inflicts enough trauma and emotional stress to seriously harm the mental state of most adults, without providing even the most basic of mental health oversight to try and spot the signs of burnout. Even if they thought her powers could only heal, her mental health shouldn't have been neglected like that. A breakdown was pretty much inevitable, IMO.

(Note: I'm not much of a fan of Worm, and have only read the occasional fan-fic for fun. However, two of my aunts work(ed) in the nursing field, and I'm pretty sure the stress of the job, combined with other mental and physical health issues, some due to self-medication, was a factor the early death of one of them. It's an incredibly stressful job, and I can't imagine curing fatal illnesses day-in, day-out is much less so.)
 
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Those reasons are mostly tied to the severity of the crime and how it affects public opinion of the offender. The logical, rehabilitation-related reasons are also artificially strengthened by the fact that most adult prisons care only about punishment rather than rehabilitation, and many of them are for-profit prisons which want to profit off of government-supplied funds and the cheap labor of the prisoners and actually would often rather the inmates not be rehabilitated as that would drain away their profits.
You being wrong about private prisons aside, your claims about the relative harshness of adult prisons compared to juvenile detention centers only reinforces my point. People in general don't care as much about adult offenders than teen offenders.

Ahh yes, how dare I not pick up on the nonexistent indicators of exaggeration within her message.
There is something called "being charitable." I suggest you try it sometime.
 
Can we go back to discussing how Amy is going to get her doomtree to use Alabaster to bludgeon Hookwolf into the ground? Or the possible legal shingdings of Leah once the PRT gets wind of her?
 
but you're just flat out wrong that the idea that the brain isn't fully developed until around 25 is obsolete.

Except i never said anything about that.

Yes, the "average human" is a purely statistical construct. So what? Averages and general trends still have utility in predicting general outcomes. So long as you treat them as a baseline only, and adjust your views of a person based on new data, they serve a useful function.

That was part of the point. The "stereotypical teenager" IS NOT THE AVERAGE. It's the exception. A small part of it is where the average is.

Because they are just a touch insane, IMO, due to the hormonal storm of puberty. Not always, not even most of them time, and not all of them.

The "hormonal storm" which about a quarter of teens never even notices and completely ignores.
A hormonal storm that can pretty much be replicated by a combination of working out for an hour and watching a horror movie and something X-rated.
Which is why it is so ridiculous to exaggerate like that.

And that explanation originates from one of my biology teachers by the way.

Note: I'm not much of a fan of Worm, and have only read the occasional fan-fic for fun. However, two of my aunts work(ed) in the nursing field, and I'm pretty sure the stress of the job, combined with other mental and physical health issues, some due to self-medication, was a factor the early death of one of them. It's an incredibly stressful job, and I can't imagine curing fatal illnesses day-in, day-out is much less so.

I'm completely not a fan of worm, quite the opposite, but there's lots of fanfics based on it that are excellent.

Yeah...given that the prefrontal cortex (which is commonly linked with preventing and controlling the behaviors ensou cited) is generally still developing until the age of 25, it's not an entirely unfounded stereotype.

"not entirely unfounded" no. But that is one helluva far distance from ALL TEENS MUST be "absolute mess of emotions, bad decisions, self-centric worldviews, and craziness". And the real world normal is far closer to "nothing to see here" than the stereotype.

I say this as someone who definitely had areas in which I was far more mature than my age indicated at pretty much every stage of my life. Still didn't stop me from being hormonally illogical in ways I simply wouldn't be now, back when I was a teenager.

That's the thing here, "hormonally illogical", how do you know hormones had anything to do with it?
How do you tell the difference from it being something in your personality that was simply "really bad idea" and therefore something you really didn't want to ever happen again, so you changed it, consciously or not.
It's one of the many reasons i am annoyed by the overuse of the stereotype, it's not based on evidence, but on assumptions that are contra-indicated by everyone who does NOT go "hormonally illogical" despite having the exact same "hormonal storm".

And as i noted before, males retain a big chunk of that storm for the rest of their lives, does this mean all males are insane? By your definition, probably yes.

Teens all have a lot of room to grow and improve, and are going to make mistakes. This is expected. If they exceed those expectations, excellent. If not? Well, they're teens. We cut them a bit of slack, for not having the experience, self-control, or maturity required to always respond to situations correctly.

Exactly. They're not reacting poorly to things because they're teens, they're reacting poorly due to lack of experience. Which is one of the points i've been trying to make.
 
Can we go back to discussing how Amy is going to get her doomtree to use Alabaster to bludgeon Hookwolf into the ground? Or the possible legal shingdings of Leah once the PRT gets wind of her?

Yes, please. I too would like to see this strangely appealing suggestion for an infinitely repairing Nazi used as a baseball bat for a living blender. It's clearly the best use for both Nazis. :D

Not really sure what there is to do about Leah, though. I mean, prove she exists! Really, she's just some mysterious cape that has powers which aren't clearly tied to Tattletale's anyway. Remember, people weren't really sure what Tattletale's power was, as evidenced by her head games about being a psychic.
 
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All I wanted to know was whether or not Amy is going to be different. Like, is she going to get help before everything can go wrong? Or does she have a whole different mindset in this story? "Out of character fanon" but for the better?
It doesn't seem like it'd take too much to derail that, honestly. Right now she's just a teenager with some creepy thoughts and a serious burnout case -- it took her father's brain injury plus a full-on Bonesaw interrupt to get her to where canon took her, in terms of finally breaking her rules, and all the stuff which happened in Wildbow's comment was after that. She's already missed out on the damage from the bank, given that this chapter said Tattletale didn't talk to her there... and she's Doing Conflict right now, which might be making her shard happy with her (note how enthusiastic it was with helping her make that tree move) and making it less likely to nudge her into brainwashing.

So, some healthier social interactions? Viable. Leah could even be useful, as a Thinker who can notice what's going on without said noticing being tied to Tattletale's need to push.
 
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So, some healthier social interactions? Viable. Leah could even be useful, as a Thinker who can notice what's going on without said noticing being tied to Tattletale's need to push.

Oh boy does that change how her character works. The fact Tattletale tends to push that is. I was rather amazed at how relatively little friction TT tended to inspire in characters despite being either annoying or rage inducing in her personal interactions.

Though on the psych tangent I do wonder how Taylor/Relentless will develop mentally. She doesn't have a meat brain or hormonally influenced emotions (I mean the chemical interactions not puberty). How will she mature in comparison to a normal person?
 
Though on the psych tangent I do wonder how Taylor/Relentless will develop mentally. She doesn't have a meat brain or hormonally influenced emotions (I mean the chemical interactions not puberty). How will she mature in comparison to a normal person?
Mental Models seem like a fairly sophisticated emulation of all that stuff, albeit with the ability to suppress it if needed. Note the earlier chapters in school where she's having her emotions suppressed a lot to deal with the bullying. I'd suspect bullshit Fog-tech is up to the task of making her basically human-normal mentally if she wants to be.
 
So, you decry Ward as toxic and stupid without ever having read it? Don't you think that this position is more toxic and stupid then Ward could ever be? What if someone who would have enjoyed reading it is turned away by this propagation of unsubstantiated aspersions?
Actually, I attempted to read it and gave up after it kept on going into grinding depth about how the heroes have group therapy and no one can be a functioning person or hero. Vicky as the viewpoint character became distinctly unsympathetic quickly.
 
Mental Models seem like a fairly sophisticated emulation of all that stuff, albeit with the ability to suppress it if needed. Note the earlier chapters in school where she's having her emotions suppressed a lot to deal with the bullying. I'd suspect bullshit Fog-tech is up to the task of making her basically human-normal mentally if she wants to be.

Disregarding actual physical brain development, she will at least have a rather different experience when it comes to emotions. Learning how to cope with emotions is a key element in personal development- and she will reduce them instead of learning like a "normal" person would.

As an example: public speaking in high school. Most of the people i know started out learning how to cope and function despite being nervous/scared/etc. Taylor in this case would be able to minimize her emotions instead. At the very least I would think that that vastly different experiences would result in a different mental development.
 
As an example: public speaking in high school. Most of the people i know started out learning how to cope and function despite being nervous/scared/etc. Taylor in this case would be able to minimize her emotions instead. At the very least I would think that that vastly different experiences would result in a different mental development.
It's maybe a fine distinction to draw? The human method of "acknowledging emotions and working past them" and the Mental Model method of "acknowledging emotions and suppressing them" produce similar outcomes, of a person who's not being dominated by their emotional responses. Particularly since the emotional suppression system is presumably under her control now following the post-Lung limitations-removal, so she's free to work to develop the human response if she wants to. (And let's face it, deliberately clinging to being-human is a fairly noticeable part of Taylor's current character.)

So, some healthier social interactions? Viable. Leah could even be useful, as a Thinker who can notice what's going on without said noticing being tied to Tattletale's need to push.
Oh, I was thinking, the other Thinker who could demonstrably tell what was up with her was Gallant, who similarly had some handicaps when it came to drawing Amy out. Even so, it's not implausible that him surviving Leviathan would have also been enough to avert Amy's canon bad-path...
 
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