- Location
- Earth
If anything the determination to continue being human works in the favor of everyone else who doesn't want to see Taylornet pop out of the woodworks.
Transposition, or: Ship Happens [Worm/Aoki Hagane no Arpeggio | Arpeggio of Blue Steel]
- Thread starter ensou
- Start date
- Crossover
Nixeu
Lord of Madness, Harbinger of Llamas
- Location
- Your nightmares.
At what level? High school? Regardless, I'd like to smack them in the back of the head. Even if the levels of hormones can be equaled by the process you stated, puberty involves maintaining a lot of those elevated levels for a longer period of time. It also often involves those levels shifting in response to something other than the normal environmental factors. Hormone affect thinking. Hormones doing weird sh*t on their own really affects your thinking. To the point where your self becomes magnified and altered to the point of almost being a different person, in some cases. I should know, I've lived through that.
I'd be willing to believe that you could replicate the neurochemistry of a manic episode in a perfectly normal human for a short period of time, under the right conditions. It's not like there's anything unique about the chemicals involved, since they're all produced by the body. Does that make the random fluctuations in the my unregulated brain chemistry not a mental illness, because you can produce them in a specific circumstances? Does that mean I can actually control them with any sort of precision without medication? Because I gotta say, while exercise can certainly help a fair amount with things like depression, it's pretty often not enough on it's own to effect major, consistent change, from what I can tell.
Given my own observations, if you think you avoided the effects of altered hormone levels, chances are you just didn't notice. It's incredibly difficult to distinguish from normal conigition, especially from the inside or from memory. Partially because altered mental states tend to impede memory formation. Partially because hormones don't cause any specific thought, they influence them. I have a medical condition that causes me to experience unnaturally elevated adrenaline levels for extended periods of time at night. It causes paranoia and an intense sense of doom. Every sound becomes a threat, a sound that my life is about to end suddenly from some unexplained threat. And yet, those thoughts always "feel" organic.
One particularly subtle effect I never realized until recently was concerns over the health of my parents. I hear them snuffling in their sleep, and I worry over their respiratory health, or worry that some tiny sound from their room is a sign that they're having a heart attack. The concerns over my own safety were easy for me to dismiss after a while. All the subtle ways elevated heart-rate and adrenaline levels influence my view of the world at night are much, much harder to notice.
And yet, those concerns evaporate in the light of day. They seem silly, and I don't know why my brain jumped to those extremes. But then, I think lots of random thoughts from random stimuli. Hell, to some extent, having thoughts like that at night is natural. But not to the degree I experience them. They also greatly reduced in intensity after I began to take medication that stabilized my heart-rate at night.
It's actually pretty impressive how much influence hormones have on thought. I wouldn't expect anyone but an expert, or someone with a condition like mine, to really grasp the extent of it. Hell, I don't think I do myself. Trying to actually spot all the subtle effects is incredibly difficult, because of how they shape thought in ways that, from the inside, in the moment, often feel totally coherent and reasonable. There's a reason psychiatrists and psychologists aren't allowed to self-diagnose.
Comes down to it, that sort of biochemistry is a pretty major factor in how brains function. Makes me wonder how the Fog managed to replicate them so well (yes, I'm trying to make this at least slightly relevant to the story). It's actually a really impressive feat, that the Fog ships seem to experience those effects. Certainly explains why Mental Models take so much processing power.
Or human abnormal, as cases like Hyuuga seem to demonstrate. That's honestly a more impressive feat than just replicating the hypothetical "average human mind". The sheer amount of interplay between environment, internal chemistry, experience, and neurostructure is astounding. Totally replicating or simulating that system is a real challenge.
Eh. It's not necessarily all that different, in a lot of ways. The more interesting difference is that, as far as I know, Taylor's emotional control influences all emotions, and is controlled by something other than her conscious mind, at least partially. Which is a fairly effective way to do it, since it can be hard to realize emotions are negatively effecting cognition to a harmful extent from the inside, but has other consequences.
Wouldn't surprise me if there's still some degree of emotional control that her Core maintains. Mostly to stop Taylor from experiencing a Haruna-like episode and blowing up a local town. But it could be entirely under her conscious control. In which case, that outcome is still on the table. Which is certainly a cheery observation to end this post off on.
My read on that is that she was enjoying basically flying. She's sharing 2 of Taylors senses right now and was probably having fun with it, don't want to let your new boss/mechanic/friend hear you flight giggling over the mic.
How do you get sex from that? I have read the bit WB did like four times now, even checked on the synonyms to make sure I wasn't missing something.
What I see there is Amy talking about changing Vicky,to her idea of perfect, before changing her mind and trying to change her back and not being able to do it. What I don't see,is one phrase or comment that I would use to mean sex, angry, forced or some weird freaky thing that can only be done by a bio-tinker.
I think that chat was WB trolling the hell out of people, and making Vicky look better, stronger since she's a major part of Ward. Honestly, I've quit reading most of his chats, threads and works since he started Ward, because the only way to make all his WoGs fit is to make every single person in Worm an asshole the devil wouldn't take.
Did she warp Vicky like a pretzel? Hell yes. Did she change her brain? Yup. In fact, here's the description from Canon:
"A caricature. A twisted reflection of how Amy saw Victoria, the swan curve of the nape of the neck, the delicate hands, and countless other features, repeated over and over again throughout. It might even have been something objectively beautiful, had it not been warped by desperation and loneliness and panic. As overwhelming as the image and the situation had been in Amy's mind, Victoria was now equally imposing, in a sense. No longer able to move under her own power, her flesh spilled over from the edge of the mattress and onto the floor."
Canon Amy is a bitch, Snarky as hell, and so full of complexes, issues and neuroses that a team of shrinks could make a career of her, but incestuous rapist? No. That's just WB making things worse again, even though his own words in Worm Canon don't back him up.
apparently it's mentioned somewhere in Ward.
So... any thoughts on what caused Coil to set off this whole thing now?
Is it an early attempt to gain power?
A mistaken activation of his FU plan? Possibly caused by something Taylor did when the cleaned up the bay?
Did he actually die off screen in this changed timeline? Possibly caught in a Bakuda bomb?
I had assumed he snagged Dinah as planned during the bank heist and was holed up in his lair learning how to use her power to his greatest benefit, but we never actually got confirmation of that.
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Also this makes thePurity Radiance chapter much more significant. The Protectorate has already semi-officially recognized her as an Independent, and no longer a member of the E88.
Is it an early attempt to gain power?
A mistaken activation of his FU plan? Possibly caused by something Taylor did when the cleaned up the bay?
Did he actually die off screen in this changed timeline? Possibly caught in a Bakuda bomb?
I had assumed he snagged Dinah as planned during the bank heist and was holed up in his lair learning how to use her power to his greatest benefit, but we never actually got confirmation of that.
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Also this makes the
Honestly could be because of losing one of his primary intelligence assets in Tattletale and damage to the Undersiders in general. Hard to make them one of the main forces in the underworld if their members are being captured and killed.
Also if the cleaning up of the boat graveyard is being spun positively by the city/prt. Don't need a new director if things are looking up for the city for the first time in years. Sure Piggot had nothing to do with it, but its about optics. She was in charge when it happened so people associate it with her, even if objectively it's a bit of a fuck up because they don't know who done it.
Basically a power play to cause chaos and eliminate competitors, likely so the travelers can smash and grab their way into significance and discredit the PRT all at once to get his plans back on track. It actually working I'm not really sure about so I do wonder if he actually has Dinah.
IT LIVES!!! And words can not express my joy. And also, after rereading this fic, I rerealize why this is such a great fic. And now to reread Blade, which was updated as I read this. You go girl! Your author powers have activated and are at FULL POWER!!!
Then why can she jump off of fields anchored in space? If she can do that, then it's possible to push on them, and that already violates conservation of momentum, which is the reason why putting two magnets together on a single platform won't result in propulsion.
Using them as a reactionless drive breaks physics in the same way using them as a springboard does.
Beast II
Naping since the Babylon incident.
- Location
- Realm of Imaginary Numbers.
Dude, they can turn those fields into walking platforms and blunt swords in the anime(both done by best girl Kongo). If you think Fog or anime in general gives a single fuck about physics then I have some bad news for you...
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yep anime most of the time violates physics so hard we really don't care about it
That's the point, a reactionless to drive gives the finger to physics in the same way using it as a springboard does, which we already know it can be used as.
Diazo
Can you tell me how to get to Sesame Street?
- Location
- Daniel Tiger's Neighbourhood
Glad to see you again ensou!
And I agree with your author's note about being done with fights scenes for now. I'm looking forward to seeing just how badly you've abandoned the station of cannon here to write your own story.
That's why I follow all your works, you take a setting and go off in this crazy direction with it while making a coherent story that is enjoyable to read while being internally consistent and logical in how the plot progresses.
Looking forward to more.
Klien fields are gravitational objects that are anchored to something, she can anchor them to herself for defensive reasons, or she can anchor them to the "world space" for a static object for the platforms she jumps off.
She can no more use a Klein field like you are describing then you can stand on a chair and jump up while holding on to the back of said chair, you just don't go anywhere as the downwards force on the chair from your legs (upwards force on you) is canceled by the upwards force on the chair through your hands resulting in no movement.
D.
And I agree with your author's note about being done with fights scenes for now. I'm looking forward to seeing just how badly you've abandoned the station of cannon here to write your own story.
That's why I follow all your works, you take a setting and go off in this crazy direction with it while making a coherent story that is enjoyable to read while being internally consistent and logical in how the plot progresses.
Looking forward to more.
Klien fields are gravitational objects that are anchored to something, she can anchor them to herself for defensive reasons, or she can anchor them to the "world space" for a static object for the platforms she jumps off.
She can no more use a Klein field like you are describing then you can stand on a chair and jump up while holding on to the back of said chair, you just don't go anywhere as the downwards force on the chair from your legs (upwards force on you) is canceled by the upwards force on the chair through your hands resulting in no movement.
D.
Considering that several people outright commented on it, including my parents(compared to my elder brothers and mom's experience from working as a daycare for ages 1-16 for some years) and a neurologist, because of my nearly complete absence of "teenager-isms", no i do not think.
And no, adrenaline does not cause "paranoia and an intense sense of doom", nor everything to seem a threat. It causes heightened awareness and puts the mind into overdrive, making every thought "acute" and "immediately important".
Due to a chronic neurlogical disease contracted at age 10, whenever i am more active, physically OR mentally, the result is an adrenaline rush that can keep going more or less strongly for hours, days or weeks at worst, even months at the extreme, because the longer it's around, the worse the crash from when it stops gets.
I'm just as paranoid on an adrenaline rush as i am without, the only difference is how the mind defaults to highlighting it first when it runs on adrenaline. But with how i spent at least a third of my time at school(and more or less overall) on adrenaline, i am extremely well aware of what its actual effects are.
Just because you're unable to notice the difference between your baseline thoughts and thoughts affected by current state, doesn't meant noone else can. I would suggest trying a few forms of meditation to establish, or at least get closer to figure out what your baseline is.
Yes she taught high school. Doesn't change that she had a Phd in her subject. And even if she wouldn't have had that, she would still have been a pretty darned good teacher and a professional on the subject.
Are you done downplaying whatever i say now? Doing that and then upgrading your own supposed level of expertise isn't a very nice way of arguing.
Except some areas of high level math(because my way of doing math simply sucks for them and i've never had a good reason to learn it the "normal way", as the way i do it can still handle almost anything up until low university level anyway), i'm yet to find a subject that i am unable to grasp once i start focusing mentally on it. I do for example find FTL-physics simple, as long as they're not expressed mathematically.
I'll repeat your important lesson for the day, just because you can't do it doesn't mean someone else cannot.
There ships and such can fly, the admirality code just prevents it.
Nixeu
Lord of Madness, Harbinger of Llamas
- Location
- Your nightmares.
When did I say I was completely unable to do so? I said it could be difficult to pinpoint all of the subtle ways biochemistry impacts your thinking. Partially because the more major stuff can end up concealing it, partially because it's subtle and minor. I also never said other people couldn't tell the difference. I got told I wasn't acting much like a "normal" teen either. Outliers exist, and there are often quite a few of them, and they tend to flock together, sometimes influencing their views on how common their experiences are. If anything, it kinda feels like you're the one having trouble accepting that other people can experience things you haven't, here.
FYI, that "I've yet to find a subject I can't grasp that doesn't involve math" statement sounds...really freaking arrogant, TBH. Especially when real-life application almost always involves math. I can usually grasp the basics of most fields pretty quickly too, but I never assume that means I have the same level of knowledge as an expert (not calling myself one, here, but the experts seem to generally disagree with you). Especially in a field that's still yet to be totally understood like neurology or endocrinology. They're both complex network of factors that are highly variable and not fully understood. At best, we usually can spot general trends that may, or may not, track to a given individual.
Addressing your comment on the effects of elevated adrenaline, different root causes, different levels (the elevation in my case likely being on a significantly lower scale than yours, as well as much less consistent, it being an indirect byproduct of a bad interaction between medication for one illness, and a separate illness causing elevated heart-rate, which is generally biochemically induced by adrenaline), and minor differences in biology between individuals can change the exact results. Also, I think we're probably just using different words to talk about similar phenomena. And I already had anxiety issues, which may complicate my case.
As for my debating tactics, given that you hadn't brought up your own experiences, I don't feel particularly bad about it. Again, most people don't have much experience about this sort of thing, so I genuinely don't expect others to get it. It's not something most people have had to consider. You do have experience with it, which makes you an exceptional case. I'm quite willing to call your experience with your medical BS greater than mine, though I reserve the right to claim I understand my situation better. Doesn't make you right, same as my observations and experience don't necessarily make me right.
As for your teacher's credentials, I'm sure she was a great teacher. Doesn't make her statement any less overly reductionist. My dad's a microbiologist. He's taught it for years. He still doesn't know anywhere near as much about hormones and their effects as an endocrinologist or neurologist would. It's a tangential, if related, field to medicine.
Addressing your comment on the effects of elevated adrenaline, different root causes, different levels (the elevation in my case likely being on a significantly lower scale than yours, as well as much less consistent, it being an indirect byproduct of a bad interaction between medication for one illness, and a separate illness causing elevated heart-rate, which is generally biochemically induced by adrenaline), and minor differences in biology between individuals can change the exact results. Also, I think we're probably just using different words to talk about similar phenomena. And I already had anxiety issues, which may complicate my case.
As for my debating tactics, given that you hadn't brought up your own experiences, I don't feel particularly bad about it. Again, most people don't have much experience about this sort of thing, so I genuinely don't expect others to get it. It's not something most people have had to consider. You do have experience with it, which makes you an exceptional case. I'm quite willing to call your experience with your medical BS greater than mine, though I reserve the right to claim I understand my situation better. Doesn't make you right, same as my observations and experience don't necessarily make me right.
As for your teacher's credentials, I'm sure she was a great teacher. Doesn't make her statement any less overly reductionist. My dad's a microbiologist. He's taught it for years. He still doesn't know anywhere near as much about hormones and their effects as an endocrinologist or neurologist would. It's a tangential, if related, field to medicine.
If you want to continue this, I suggest we move to PMs. Personally, I'd prefer to just stop here and agree to disagree, because I have enough other stuff going on that I'm pretty busy.
To be fair, can't the ships that used to be aircraft carriers "jump" themselves long distances?
- Location
- Belfast
I think the big thing here is that these are the ships not the mental models. Ships could easily mount and power tech that allows them to fly and 'jump' through an entirely different mechanism to Klein fields, and that tech may not be able to scale down effectively past a certain point.
Consider the size of Hyugga's hover egg thing, and while I'd assume that is bigger than necessary to allow for additional functionality it's probably a decent indicator for the size of a viable piece of Fog flight tech. Maybe it could be compressed down to a slim backpack or something, but a mental model probably needs at least that much for flight capability to become an option.
- Location
- US
The important part in what you quoted was the 'anchored to her' qualifier. She cannot jump off a field anchored to her. She can from one that's anchored statically. Yes, this violates conservation laws, unless the field is actually transferring the force to whatever it is anchored to somehow.
The question I would have, is what keeps her from having a field with a moving anchor, e.g. appear here and move that direction at this speed.
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Diazo
Can you tell me how to get to Sesame Street?
- Location
- Daniel Tiger's Neighbourhood
One thing to keep in mind is that in the Manga I don't think we ever see a Klein field used as a platform at all, it is always as a defensive shield/bubble.
Early on in the manga, one of the I-401's crew is doing that presentation on about the Klein Field in the lecture hall (before getting taken by the Diet Member? for that job offer) and it is described as a bottle with the ship it is defending inside. I can't recall an instance of the Klein field being used in the manga without the ship it is being projected from being right there. Both the Mental Model and the actual ship hull qualifying for "ship" here.
This implies that a functional limitation of the Klein field is that it can only be projected from, and around, the generating ship.
Now, presumably in-universe this is not a complete understanding of the Klein field as it is a human trying to describe a Fog technology, but I would also assume this was the author's giving the audience a break and throwing us some techno-babble on what we can expect to see from the Klein field going forward so I would assume it is mostly accurate.
(I think there was something about crushing the crab-tanks when the Fog takes Makie, but not sure that was the Klein field or how it fits into this. Can't reread right now.)
In the Anime, we do see the Klein field (or what I assume is the Klein field) being used as a platform, notably when Kongo is coming ashore at the island in the later part of the series. But even then, Kongo's ship hull is right there so it could be argued that the Klien field platforms are being anchored to the Ship hull so the Mental Model can walk on them.
Which is a long winded way of saying, the Klein fields as platforms is specific to Experimental Platform X-1 and so it's up to Ensou how they work as they are specific to this story.
My personal assumption is that because in Cannon the Klein field is very clearly part of the Fog's ability to mess with space-time, I assume the Klein field can be anchored to anything of "significance" on the local space-time curvature. At the current location, that is pretty much Earth. So we have 2 usable anchor points, Earth itself and Relentless herself as the Generating Object for the field.
How ensou uses it going forward remains to be seen, it has already established that Relentless is working at a level above the Fog we see in cannon, so something minor like this (a Klein field platform) hardly stretches my suspension of disbelief.
D.
Early on in the manga, one of the I-401's crew is doing that presentation on about the Klein Field in the lecture hall (before getting taken by the Diet Member? for that job offer) and it is described as a bottle with the ship it is defending inside. I can't recall an instance of the Klein field being used in the manga without the ship it is being projected from being right there. Both the Mental Model and the actual ship hull qualifying for "ship" here.
This implies that a functional limitation of the Klein field is that it can only be projected from, and around, the generating ship.
Now, presumably in-universe this is not a complete understanding of the Klein field as it is a human trying to describe a Fog technology, but I would also assume this was the author's giving the audience a break and throwing us some techno-babble on what we can expect to see from the Klein field going forward so I would assume it is mostly accurate.
(I think there was something about crushing the crab-tanks when the Fog takes Makie, but not sure that was the Klein field or how it fits into this. Can't reread right now.)
In the Anime, we do see the Klein field (or what I assume is the Klein field) being used as a platform, notably when Kongo is coming ashore at the island in the later part of the series. But even then, Kongo's ship hull is right there so it could be argued that the Klien field platforms are being anchored to the Ship hull so the Mental Model can walk on them.
Which is a long winded way of saying, the Klein fields as platforms is specific to Experimental Platform X-1 and so it's up to Ensou how they work as they are specific to this story.
My personal assumption is that because in Cannon the Klein field is very clearly part of the Fog's ability to mess with space-time, I assume the Klein field can be anchored to anything of "significance" on the local space-time curvature. At the current location, that is pretty much Earth. So we have 2 usable anchor points, Earth itself and Relentless herself as the Generating Object for the field.
How ensou uses it going forward remains to be seen, it has already established that Relentless is working at a level above the Fog we see in cannon, so something minor like this (a Klein field platform) hardly stretches my suspension of disbelief.
D.
ensou
Magical G̶i̶r̶l̶ Servant Mordred-chan
- Location
- NEW YORK CITY!??
- Pronouns
- She/Her
...I hadn't even considered the explanation that it was anchored solely to the Union Core, and that Kongou walking on her platforms could be connected to the fact that she didn't have her Union Core in her Mental Model like other ships have been shown to. The explanation that it's all anchored to the Union Core and/or ship-self makes a lot more sense, so it's completely on me for making a false assumption like that.
If I were to do this story a second time, I'd probably not have Relentless able to use her Armor to walk on, simply because it doesn't really match up with canon, but that also severely limits her mobility in ways that I've used since... Chapter 2? IIRC? When she uses them like a staircase to walk out of the water? Back then I wasn't as conscious of how strict certain things were in regards to Fog technology, and it's a bit late for taking that back now. The phrase "that ship has sailed" seems rather appropriate.
Now, in defense of her being able to do it, however, (even if it isn't displayed in canon) I would say that it could be explained as her Core tagging a point in three-dimensional local space, exerting whatever it needs to in order to express one of her panels, and then simply maintaining that force upon that point, dynamically adjusting for her movement relative to it. Because honestly that's just math and not even terribly complicated math at that, although maybe the interaction of a four-dimensional energy manifold centered on the Union Core makes it more complex? I'd imagine QA would be more than happy to help with those calculations, so I could also explain it away like that: saying it's because she has QA, a co-processor extremely experienced and optimized for these sorts of problems that she's able to do such a thing, and thus is unique to her. This is probably what I'm going to go with, honestly.
But yeah, doing a good long think and canon dive has shown that there's no explicit examples of a ship/Union Core moving with a panel not static relative to them. There's some pretty confusing imagery that almost implies that happening (such as Haruna's walk of doom in the Mansion assault and catching bullets/grenades/mortars as she goes) but could in reality just be for the dramatic framing and is completely consistent with all the other evidence.
jwolfe_beta
Semi Genre-Savvy Overlord
- Location
- Canada
Well in the manga during Haruna's fight at the mansion (chapter 24 and up) she uses the field in various ways.
1. Blasts away soldiers as a giant shockwave.
2. She's shown to crush a vehicle under a bubble of force.
3. In chapter 25 page 11 she flicks two grenades off a soldier's belt (cutting the connections via a 2d plane of the field) before removing the pins in a similar fashion before batting them into a helicopter.
So it's certainly possible for them to use the KF as a platform given that they can push/support/elevate objects using it, it's probably not something they'd normally do since using it as a platform takes away from being able to use it as effectively for defense.
Okibruez
(Verified Mid-Boss)
- Location
- Dreams
Alternatively, there's also the fact that if you assume QA is part of the Union Core then Taylor could be creating the platforms relative to QA in n-dimensional space.
QA is a LOT bigger and more stable than any Fog ship, after all...
Really, the fact that the Fog is routing through QA can be used as a 'Wizard Did It' for a lot of the inconsistencies. Powers are bullshit, QA is bullshit even by power standards, and combining the Fog with QA has to have resulted in physics bending BULLSHIT that neither faction would be capable of on their own.
- Location
- Somewhere amongst the stars...
And this is Canon as per the Kongo fight in the Manga. Gunzhou's strategy was based on changing the density of seawater to the point where Kongo and her attending vessels would have to use their fields to keep floating and leave themselves open to return fire.
Mal-3
Fun Tyrant
Gripping hand, I for one am perfectly willing to accept "because it looks cool" with no further justification necessary for Taylor pinballing off her Klein fields. Because it does look cool, and as Mystery Science Theater 3000 teaches, it's just a show and we should really just relax. 
want to listen to a song(skitter aw man)