Transposition, or: Ship Happens [Worm/Aoki Hagane no Arpeggio | Arpeggio of Blue Steel]

[ensou]

After reading Ward I'm always expecting everybody to add a little bit of evil or highly questionable thoughts to their Amy's. What are your thoughts on Canon Amy and where do you think your character sits on a scale of one to evil?

Click to shrink...

NaN

Barring extenuating circumstances, calling or characterizing a teenager as evil is ridiculous. Can they do horrible things? Absolutely. In fact, the impulsiveness that comes with the emotions of a teenager and the lack of critical thinking/foresight can make things worse, one-hundred percent. If you're talking about the Vickyblob, a determination of temporary insanity is not only practically guaranteed, but almost expected after everything Amy went through.

Writing teenagers as anything but the absolute mess of emotions, bad decisions, self-centric worldviews, and craziness they are is a disservice. And that is honestly all I have to say about the topic.

Also, I liked the divergence of the bank robbery scene about how Amy knocked Tattletale out by herself. Was that mentioned before? In any case, it explains why Amy seems more...aggressive here. I like it!

Click to shrink...

It's been mentioned a few times, but as with any off-screen change to canon, bringing it up and mentioning it multiple times before we see the direct results (other than Leah herself, of course) is important. Both Leah and Taylor have limited knowledge of things happening in the background, and the narration is further limited by what their characters choose to focus on because of what they consider important and relevant.

Religious iconography aside, do they share any similarity with Relentles's armor?

Click to shrink...

Not a ton. It's power armor-esque, yes, but I think I made a comment after the chapter with Greg's drawings that described some of the influences. I've got a whole folder of reference images.

This seems really odd; what can't Taylor do? Sure, she may not be aware of the best thing to do, but it's weird for her to see herself as powerless.

Click to shrink...

It's the same problem she had with the bombings: she can act, yes, but how can she do that in such a way she would be more of a help than a hindrance? She's not the Protectorate or PRT, in fact I imagine they asked independents not to get involved unless requested because of the amount of coordination that needs to happen for people not to get in each others' way.

Also, will Taylor offer to make New Wave better costumes, after seen how unarmored most of them are or will you have Victoria ask her tinker buddy for something to keep her sister safe (that spirals into everyone getting better suits)?

Click to shrink...

Taylor's not a Tinker, and the current consensus in-world is that she has a Tinker partner (which they're going to be casting Leah as). I doubt New Wave would ask for new costumes, as their current ones probably took a lot of time to get right, and each cape has different requirements, but Victoria asking Taylor about something for Amy is quite possible.

A great new chapter, but I don't think I understand how Taylor is able to jump and run on things she creates.

Click to shrink...

Her Klein field, when expressed, acts as a barrier that absorbs force, essentially making it a solid surface. The panels can be configured as either statically tied to a set of coordinates (as seen when mental models walk on them), or dynamically adjusting position (when used as a force-field for a moving ship). At the level the Fog operate, it's all literally just a bunch of math either way.

-why? It's not like they can kill themselves with their power. Likely the worst that could happen is dislocated joints.-

Click to shrink...

She wasn't sure how their damage reduction functioned, nor how it would interact with her Klein field. As seen at the end, she did use it exactly that way, but only after learning more about their powers and how they functioned by testing the waters.

Btw was that Amy comment sarcasm? I never heard of anyone that liked writing the ball of contradictions that is Amy.

Click to shrink...

No, I actually enjoy writing Amy. As long as the contradictions don't create problems with characterization, it makes things more fun for me. Hell, look at Taylor here. The entire story is practically about contradictions and cognitive dissonance.

I was surprised when reading the end of the fight to see that Relentless didn't seem to escalate when Brandish was injured and it looked like Menja would escape. It is fine to practice when you are untouchable and your side is winning but once her allies started going down I'd have expected Relentless to step things up.

Amy's bit in capturing Menja still works fine since even ramped up Taylor wouldn't be willing to seriously harm Fenja so that would provide enough of a delay. But as is the single line:
doesn't really make it feel like Relentless had actually started using her wave force and such and was just continuing to play around with her sword.

Click to shrink...

I mean, I don't know what you want me to say? They did escalate. Relentless went from "let me just play around and wear you down until you're too tired to move" to "take you down and completely disable you" in like thirty seconds.

 

[13th Bee]

I mean, it looks to me like Relentless acted in a nice responsible manner rather than going "stop *blam blam* police!"

 

[Jim Starluck]

Her Klein field, when expressed, acts as a barrier that absorbs force, essentially making it a solid surface. The panels can be configured as either statically tied to a set of coordinates (as seen when mental models walk on them), or dynamically adjusting position (when used as a force-field for a moving ship). At the level the Fog operate, it's all literally just a bunch of math either way.

Click to shrink...

I'm curious -- couldn't she use a set of moving panels to carry herself through the air, and thus achieve flight?

 

[ensou]

I'm curious -- couldn't she use a set of moving panels to carry herself through the air, and thus achieve flight?

Click to shrink...

It's not independent motion, it's movement relative to her. Don't ask me why it's like that, haha, but in canon anything involving flight like that had to be cobbled together (such as Hyuuga's anti-grav platform). It seems like the two options for the Klein field's expressions are "anchored to fixed location in space" or "anchored relative to my position".

 

[Jolly Reaper]

After reading Ward I'm always expecting everybody to add a little bit of evil or highly questionable thoughts to their Amy's. What are your thoughts on Canon Amy and where do you think your character sits on a scale of one to evil?

Click to shrink...

I don't understand this. Is there a flashbacks or something in Ward that warrant this, or just because what she is doing in Ward.
Because the 2+ years difference, reconnecting with Marquis, and all other stuff that happened would make her change from who she was in the begin ing of Worm, and currently this story is sometime in April 2011.

 

[WHM Sukamia]

I've got a whole folder of reference images.

Click to shrink...

Could we perhaps see some of them?

 

[Pyrotech51]

It's not independent motion, it's movement relative to her. Don't ask me why it's like that, haha, but in canon anything involving flight like that had to be cobbled together (such as Hyuuga's anti-grav platform). It seems like the two options for the Klein field's expressions are "anchored to fixed location in space" or "anchored relative to my position".

Click to shrink...

Does this not mean that she could create a little tiny drone that she controls with just enough processing power to generate a disk of Klein fields that remain in a fixed location relative to it?

Sure it's effectively the same as Hyugga's workaround, but it could work for high speed transport where Taylor can't break out the bigger tricks. Bonus points if it looks like a Lantern Ring platform, a cloud, or some other relevant reference .

 

[FeepingCreature]

It's not independent motion, it's movement relative to her. Don't ask me why it's like that, haha, but in canon anything involving flight like that had to be cobbled together (such as Hyuuga's anti-grav platform). It seems like the two options for the Klein field's expressions are "anchored to fixed location in space" or "anchored relative to my position".

Click to shrink...

Can she theoretically anchor a forcefield to a large rotating sphere underground and turn the sphere to move her? Actually, do the forcefields transmit force back to the anchored object in a way that matches torque/levers proportional to distance? Could she have stopped Fenja by anchoring her to an underground forcefield?

Obligatory anti-endbringer weapon: anchor a forcefield to the sun.

 

[MobiusC]

Does this not mean that she could create a little tiny drone that she controls with just enough processing power to generate a disk of Klein fields that remain in a fixed location relative to it?

Sure it's effectively the same as Hyugga's workaround, but it could work for high speed transport where Taylor can't break out the bigger tricks. Bonus points if it looks like a Lantern Ring platform, a cloud, or some other relevant reference .

Click to shrink...

Can she theoretically anchor a forcefield to a large rotating sphere underground and turn the sphere to move her? Actually, do the forcefields transmit force back to the anchored object in a way that matches torque/levers proportional to distance? Could she have stopped Fenja by anchoring her to an underground forcefield?

Click to shrink...

The Klein Field/Wave Force Armor is generated by her Union Core, trying to move with it is a fair bit like trying to move a sail boat by putting a fan on it and pointing it at the sail.

 

[DW75]

Writing teenagers as anything but the absolute mess of emotions, bad decisions, self-centric worldviews, and craziness they are is a disservice.

Click to shrink...

This is a horribly overused and exaggerated stereotype which simply isn't real. It's real for a small minority which often ends up being considered more or less "bad" or "problematic", and it's partially real(as in one or more descriptor but not all and/or only to some limited extent) for many more, but it's not a universal truth.

I could give you lots of examples, but i'll just say, it's stereotype because it happens repeatedly and when it does it is very noticeable, making it seem more common than it is, not because it's true for all or even most people.

 

[Somdudewillson]

Barring extenuating circumstances, calling or characterizing a teenager as evil is ridiculous. Can they do horrible things? Absolutely. In fact, the impulsiveness that comes with the emotions of a teenager and the lack of critical thinking/foresight can make things worse, one-hundred percent. If you're talking about the Vickyblob, a determination of temporary insanity is not only practically guaranteed, but almost expected after everything Amy went through.

Writing teenagers as anything but the absolute mess of emotions, bad decisions, self-centric worldviews, and craziness they are is a disservice. And that is honestly all I have to say about the topic.

Click to shrink...

That is immense generalization and stereotype. Teenagers are not just a chaotic mess of emotions and impulses - they do have a personality, you know. They are just as capable of being evil as any adult, and refusing to acknowledge that's honestly a little dehumanizing.

 

[qsurf]

This is a horribly overused and exaggerated stereotype which simply isn't real. It's real for a small minority which often ends up being considered more or less "bad" or "problematic", and it's partially real(as in one or more descriptor but not all and/or only to some limited extent) for many more, but it's not a universal truth.

I could give you lots of examples, but i'll just say, it's stereotype because it happens repeatedly and when it does it is very noticeable, making it seem more common than it is, not because it's true for all or even most people.

Click to shrink...

That is immense generalization and stereotype. Teenagers are not just a chaotic mess of emotions and impulses - they do have a personality, you know. They are just as capable of being evil as any adult, and refusing to acknowledge that's honestly a little dehumanizing.

Click to shrink...

You know guys, Ensou may be pointing out that Amy at the end of the day is a teenager, a super-powered one brought up in conditions that are not ideal in the slightest but a teenager nonetheless, therefore applying a stark Black and White morality to her actions is completely ignoring a few things:

1) Adolescence, aka the time the human body floods itself with all kinds of hormones to prepare for sexual reproduction, also the time that brains get rewired, preferences change, all kinds of physiological conditions pop up or die down depending. It's also an EXTREMELY stressful point in a human's social life if they have the chance to go to school or live in a community that has any kind of adult initiation ceremony looming over them.
2) Due to the Hormonal Changes mentioned above, the most important thing that basically has a teen stay in control is the environment they were raised in up to that point and what it is like during those 4-8 years, their own personality (which could change over this time, but it informs how they react to their environment and changes), and the people they are with.

Exaggerating a known fact to make a point clear to someone is something we do all the time whether you notice it or not, and considering how well Ensou writes, I believe that she was making the point that before anything else, Amy is a teenager and thus prone to certain well-documented behaviours that teenagers have expressed. This includes moments of cruelty.

 

[KrugSmash]

This is in my top 5 wanting for an update stories that I follow.

Did you forget about Brandish's invulnerable breaker state?

 

[The Name of Love]

NaN

Barring extenuating circumstances, calling or characterizing a teenager as evil is ridiculous. Can they do horrible things? Absolutely. In fact, the impulsiveness that comes with the emotions of a teenager and the lack of critical thinking/foresight can make things worse, one-hundred percent. If you're talking about the Vickyblob, a determination of temporary insanity is not only practically guaranteed, but almost expected after everything Amy went through.

Writing teenagers as anything but the absolute mess of emotions, bad decisions, self-centric worldviews, and craziness they are is a disservice. And that is honestly all I have to say about the topic.

Click to shrink...

No, I actually enjoy writing Amy. As long as the contradictions don't create problems with characterization, it makes things more fun for me. Hell, look at Taylor here. The entire story is practically about contradictions and cognitive dissonance.

Click to shrink...

If I may, I'd like to get a word in about how I view Amy Dallon, how her depictions in Worm and Ward differ from those often found in fanfiction.

Oftentimes, I find that fanfiction authors depict Amy as the woobie archetype, the person who is sympathetic and suffering. And there are admittedly a lot of things that are causing Amy to suffer in her backstory. She knows she's the daughter of a villain and fears following in her biological father's footsteps, she has an adopted mother who doesn't care about her and an adopted father who's suffering from depression, she's been Mastered into having a sexual attraction with her adopted sister, something that makes the only positive relationship in her life very awkward while disgusting herself. The only way she's able to get by is by convincing herself she's a good person by acting as Panacea. However, she suffers from burnout as a direct result of constantly pushing herself to heal people. And she can't take a break in good conscience because every moment she's away from a hospital is another moment someone is suffering or dying of something only she can cure. So yeah, she's definitely earned her reputation as a woobie amongst the Worm fanfic community.

At the same time, she's shown to not be a very nice person at all. She threatens Taylor with uncontrollable weight gain (though you have to remember that Taylor is, at that point, holding innocent people hostage with black widows), she constantly tries to sabotage the Undersiders because she classifies them as "villains" in spite of their noble actions and intentions, she enables Victoria's violent tendencies, and she has outright contempt for her sister's boyfriend for getting to have a relationship with Victoria. In a way, she has the opposite problem to Taylor: Taylor's morality is strictly an "ends justify the means" type of utilitarianism (which causes her to be prone to escalation), whereas Amy's morality is based entirely on an arbitrary, self-imposed code of conduct that classifies everyone in terms of pure-white "heroes" and pure-black "villains," disregarding how everyone's really a mix of good and bad. In TV Tropes terms, I'd classify her as somewhat of a Jerkass Woobie, as while she is self-centered, spiteful, insensitive towards others' feelings, and outright cruel towards acceptable targets (those she classifies as "villains"), most of these character traits were acquired as a result of her harsh backstory, and she deep-down wants to be a real hero.

When Amy accidentally turned Victoria into a bio-blob, I'm convinced that it was an accident. Ward shows how Amy's powers are very difficult to control, that she's prone to making mistakes. I believe that these mistakes are in large part caused by her questionable sanity; that is, if she is in a better state of mind, then she has more control. Amy at the end of the S9 arc was not in a good state of mind. The result was her doing the one thing she swore not to do and becoming a "villain." This caused her no end of self-loathing.

I think that her characterizations in Ward - her wanting to be treated as a good guy because she has some basic decency, her insistence that she never made any mistakes, and her over-the-top self-centeredness to the point of hypocrisy - is her way of coping with her becoming a "villain" according to her own moral system. She couldn't accept that a hero could make mistakes, that a hero could have a dark side they need to fight. As a result, she's had to delude herself into thinking she's a "good guy" by lowering her own moral standards. It was always arbitrary to begin with, so why not change it? The end result is that all of her earlier flaws are amplified to the degree that it overshadows pretty much every other part of her character to the point where she really had become a villain. But I have a feeling, deep down, she still despises herself.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on this, @ensou. As a fellow writer, do you think this is right?

That is immense generalization and stereotype. Teenagers are not just a chaotic mess of emotions and impulses - they do have a personality, you know. They are just as capable of being evil as any adult, and refusing to acknowledge that's honestly a little dehumanizing.

Click to shrink...

Now that's just being uncharitable to ensou. She never denied teenagers have personalities and free will. She's just pointing out how there's a reason why we don't criminalize criminals that are teenagers as harshly as criminals that are adults.

 

[Somdudewillson]

"They don't just get stronger as they gets larger, they get harder to hurt too, Taylor. I think it's some kind of Breaker effect. Something that reduces force or damage somehow?" Leah said.

Click to shrink...

The fact that Fenja and Menja's growth also shrinks damage done to them is common knowledge that Leah would have encountered off of a quick internet search on them.

Now that's just being uncharitable to ensou. She never denied teenagers have personalities and free will. She's just pointing out how there's a reason why we don't criminalize criminals that are teenagers as harshly as criminals that are adults.

Click to shrink...

Then she should have said that rather than claim that teenagers can't be evil and state that all characterizations of teenagers should be an "absolute mess of emotions, bad decisions, self-centric worldviews, and craziness".

 

[ensou]

This is a horribly overused and exaggerated stereotype which simply isn't real. It's real for a small minority which often ends up being considered more or less "bad" or "problematic", and it's partially real(as in one or more descriptor but not all and/or only to some limited extent) for many more, but it's not a universal truth.

I could give you lots of examples, but i'll just say, it's stereotype because it happens repeatedly and when it does it is very noticeable, making it seem more common than it is, not because it's true for all or even most people.

Click to shrink...

That is immense generalization and stereotype. Teenagers are not just a chaotic mess of emotions and impulses - they do have a personality, you know. They are just as capable of being evil as any adult, and refusing to acknowledge that's honestly a little dehumanizing.

Click to shrink...

It wasn't my intention to imply that teenagers are any less complicated or have less developed thinking than adults, or that adults are any less able to have horrible decision-making and lack of planning and can be emotionally immature, so if it came off that way, I'm sorry.

In a number of ways, adolescents are actually more complicated, both in mentality and emotions, simply because there is such a degree of malleability and variety of possibilities, and nobody develops at the same rate.

However, that does not preclude the fact that adolescent are still developing. Complex cognitive behaviors such as metacognition are being formed. Social skills are more important than ever. Views of the world are transitioning from a very personal focus to one that is much larger and understands the indirect impact of actions rather than just the direct. Identity does not generally solidify and become static until late adolescence, even if portions of that identity are explored, characterized, and/or committed to.

I came out to my parents as queer when I was fifteen and they were like "uh-huh, yeah okay let's wait and see" (spoiler alert: nothing changed) and so I know exactly how frustrating it can be to be blown off simply because you're not seen as completely matured. However, there were also other things I completely changed my position and views on since then.

I really don't want to get into the philosophical discussion of evil, whether as an extreme of immorality or the immense subjectivity of justifying actions. I won't say evil doesn't exist and that adolescents aren't capable of it (as I said before, extenuating circumstances), but there's a reason we don't typically try children and teenagers as adults, and there's a reason why parents are held accountable for their kids.

Now, I hope this details things better, because I really have to go get ready for work now. >.>

 

[The Name of Love]

Then she should have said that rather than claim that teenagers can't be evil and state that all characterizations of teenagers should be an "absolute mess of emotions, bad decisions, self-centric worldviews, and craziness".

Click to shrink...

Dude, she was exaggerating. Get over yourself.

 

[Somdudewillson]

but there's a reason we don't typically try children and teenagers as adults

Click to shrink...

Those reasons are mostly tied to the severity of the crime and how it affects public opinion of the offender. The logical, rehabilitation-related reasons are also artificially strengthened by the fact that most adult prisons care only about punishment rather than rehabilitation, and many of them are for-profit prisons which want to profit off of government-supplied funds and the cheap labor of the prisoners and actually would often rather the inmates not be rehabilitated as that would drain away their profits.

Dude, she was exaggerating. Get over yourself.

Click to shrink...

Ahh yes, how dare I not pick up on the nonexistent indicators of exaggeration within her message.

 

[Warclaw_Prime]

As for the fight itself, unless there were some shard shenanigans I would have expected Taylor's sword to have sheared through her opponent's in short order. Steel, even the best, most durable, just wouldn't take the sorts of abuse it'd take under those circumstances, against whatever super-alloy Taylor's blade is made of.. Then you add in Brute levels of strength and a nano-scale edge profile....

 

[SoaringJe]

As for the fight itself, unless there were some shard shenanigans I would have expected Taylor's sword to have sheared through her opponent's in short order. Steel, even the best, most durable, just wouldn't take the sorts of abuse it'd take under those circumstances, against whatever super-alloy Taylor's blade is made of.. Then you add in Brute levels of strength and a nano-scale edge profile....

Click to shrink...

It was noted prior to her leaving the house that she dulled the edge with a layer of nanomaterial, and during the fight she changed the sharpness to that of a kitchen knife

 

[BigBadBen]

I want to see Panpan being snarky to everyone at school tomorrow due to her lack of sleep, and just lovingly carry, hold, posses a very large thermos, 52 ounces, of coffee, creamer and enough sugar to give Skidmark pause before drinking it.

 

[tyry95]

Er, didn't mean to start this whole debate about Amy being evil but I do want to clarify. At this point in her life she's just horribly conflicted and needs a therapist. But after the S9 show up? She goes down a horrible twisted path, and screwing up Victoria's body is barely even the worst thing she did. Wildbow himself confirmed that Amy repeatedly sexually assaulted and brainwashed her in the process of turning Victoria into whatever the hell we're supposed to call it.



All I wanted to know was whether or not Amy is going to be different. Like, is she going to get help before everything can go wrong? Or does she have a whole different mindset in this story? "Out of character fanon" but for the better?

 

[Gregory Crey]

I want to see Panpan being snarky to everyone at school tomorrow due to her lack of sleep, and just lovingly carry, hold, posses a very large thermos, 52 ounces, of coffee, creamer and enough sugar to give Skidmark pause before drinking it.

Click to shrink...

This is me, every day.

Edit: No, really, I am rather horrible to put up with unless I have my pot of coffee for the morning.

 

[DW75]

Ugh...

1) Adolescence, aka the time the human body floods itself with all kinds of hormones to prepare for sexual reproduction, also the time that brains get rewired, preferences change, all kinds of physiological conditions pop up or die down depending.

2) Due to the Hormonal Changes mentioned above, the most important thing that basically has a teen stay in control is the environment they were raised in up to that point and what it is like during those 4-8 years, their own personality (which could change over this time, but it informs how they react to their environment and changes), and the people they are with.

Click to shrink...

*sigh*
Everything you state above is exaggerated to the point where if it was real, being a teenager would equal being legally insane or at least completely unaccountable for their own actions, ALWAYS, without exception(in reality it is the opposite, fancy that, just reduced liability). By the same logic, female teenagers should be considered adults about 20 days of the month, and then judged as a teen for 5-10 days per month until menopause. While males should be considered adolescents for forever, as we keep having far more hormones fluffing around ever since puberty starts. It also suggests that pre-pubertal children are more adult than teenagers.

And if it is true, why don't you explain why the MAJORITY of people going through adolescence does NOT behave like the stereotypical teenager? I can count on my fingers the number of people i have known in my 44 years that could be considered an "absolute mess of emotions, bad decisions, self-centric worldviews, and craziness" and still have several fingers left because that's the extreme outlier that is very rare.

As i already stated, the stereotype is based on a rather small minority, which gets noticed far more exactly because they stand out from the norm. While the average is to exhibit the stereotypical behaviour to SOME degree or partially in some ways.

Many teens argue with their parents, some rebel more or less, some DO get emotionally messed up, some make bad decisions etc etc.
But extremely few do it all to the point of "absolute mess".
And more importantly, none of those things are limited to teens but mostly to SITUATION, and if you're prone to any of them in your teens, you probably were prone to them BEFORE your teens and still are prone to them AFTER your teens as well.

Being a teenager CAN exaggerate things, but there is absolutely nothing guaranteeing that so happens and it's far more likely to be situational than biological. "Teenager" is NOT a binary thing of yes or no.
Also, changing personality usually has very little to do with "teenager", it tends to happen when something important or drastic happens, regardless if you're 5, 15 or 50 years old.

It's also an EXTREMELY stressful point in a human's social life if they have the chance to go to school or live in a community that has any kind of adult initiation ceremony looming over them.

Click to shrink...

That has absolutely nothing to do with being a teenager or not. If culture makes a certain agegroup's life stressful, then shit is going to happen, end of story, no matter if the agegroup is teens or whatever else.

Exaggerating a known fact to make a point clear to someone is something we do all the time whether you notice it or not, and considering how well Ensou writes, I believe that she was making the point that before anything else, Amy is a teenager and thus prone to certain well-documented behaviours that teenagers have expressed. This includes moments of cruelty.

Click to shrink...

Being a teen does not cause "moments of cruelty". Unintentional cruelty is common, but this is due to situation or lack of "wisdom of age" which is something we do not just GET from teenage years, nor stop gaining after. Nor "moments of cruelty" something people just start with nor quit because of age/development alone.

You know guys, Ensou may be pointing out that Amy at the end of the day is a teenager, a super-powered one brought up in conditions that are ideal in the slightest but a teenager nonetheless, therefore applying a stark Black and White morality to her actions is completely ignoring a few things:

Click to shrink...

"not ideal in the slightest" otherwise your sentence makes zero sense.

Applying "a stark Black and White morality" nearly always means you have to ignore something. But saying a person CANNOT be evil solely because of age is simply wrong.

 

[Arthur Hansen]

All I wanted to know was whether or not Amy is going to be different. Like, is she going to get help before everything can go wrong? Or does she have a whole different mindset in this story? "Out of character fanon" but for the better?

Click to shrink...

Many, many writers are not even bothering to include Ward canon because it is so toxic. And, well, stupid. The GrimDerp has no breaks in that story from what I've heard second or third hand.