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To Establish Peace - A Romance of the Three Kingdoms Quest

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Erzherzog_Karl said:
The marquis, who lost his title. I made a mistake it was over 100 not 200. Still, a weird claim.

I don't deny the historical Liu Bei's abilities, but for me it is a bullshit claim like the one from Frederick the Great that he had one on Silesia. A simple/smart political move to grant a pragmatic power grab the venue of legitimacy. Calling it bullshit does not detract from the achievements of the person, who made that claim. Liu Bei was the comeback kid of the era. Capable of leading his rag tack team of retainers through more losses than any other. Holding them together through sheer power of personality and charisma. That is impressive, but I still find it ridiculous how big of a deal is made out of his claim of Imperial Lineage and personally dispute its existence.

I would not say the lineage of the Yuans was the thing that mattered, I mean the initial phase of the era after Dong Zhuo was nothing more than a Yuan Civil war. The big contestant Yuan Shao and Yuan Shu. Their massive network of patronage and retainers was a big deal. The wealth they had accumulated over time also mattered. To reduce them to simply their lineage is wrong. The two great Yuans are getting a bad reputation in the fandom most of the time. Even though they have some of the most compelling narratives possible. One a true hero, who falls and the other someone who in a world of pretentiousness and false humility took a stand and openly confessed to the ambition many other warlords had.

...ah the Bandit Empress begins her rise. How devious. Does this mean she failed her task with the mercenaries deliberately?
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Oh that guy. Couldn't pay the title tax to keep his title?

That's the problem when you have so many children especially sons. The inheritance gets smaller and smaller that the family tree wouldn't matter if they're poor as dirt so any family registry wouldn't keep much note of it if unless they proved their ability.

Which is what I see Liu Bei background as. Inheriting very little because there was little to be had.

Then let me clarify the Yuans. They had both their lineage and their inheritances at as best a time when they had followers, money and property but still failed.
 
It is kind of lucky how things come together for us. Most likely Dong Zhuo's army will come to Bing, Lu Bu is close by and we even have a great target to kill. All the ingredients for a massive windfall in contributions and rewards. Depending on how things go, I would not be surprised if Lu Bu gets a title early. Maybe not Marquis like in OTL but something impressive.
 
Thanatosra said:
So is this guy related to Liu Bei cause it seems weird he would proclaim vengeance for one distant kinsman or was it just because Liu Yu was more popular. Also the guy who killed a Grand Administrator is on his way to possible kill a second.
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Okay so I did some research, and I legit don't know. Not all Lius were members of the Imperial clan. For example, Liu Xun, vassal of Yuan Shu and later warlord, was not, neither was Wei adviser Liu Ye. I actually don't know much at all about him. Perhaps a book like the Biographical Dictionary of Ancient Han would help give me answers, but sadly that's not something I can afford.
 
Also, yeah, this might be the timeline where the likes of Dong Zhuo, Lu Bu and Gongsun "fuck the tribes, all my homies hate the tribes" Zan become actual, legit heroes. Holy shit.
 
Gaz said:
Sun Quan was a good guy when he was young, and did very well after inheriting a bad situation.

Sadly as he became older, he slipped down the drain very quickly. Whether it is due to all the partying and drinking he indulged in or something else is unclear.

He turned a blind eye to the crimes of generals like Pan Zhang and Gan Ning. He pissed off his court on several occasions. He set fire to Zhang Zhao's gate. He almost went to war with Gongsun Yuan over horses. He sent a navy to conquer a mythical island, and when 90% of them were killed, he executed the 10% that returned. He set up his court and successors in a way to encourage ASOIAF style cut throat politics, resulting in the Crown Prince affair. He shamed the hell out of Lu Xun. The list goes on.
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Seeing the fall of the Sun dynasty the apple really didn't fall too far from the tree.

Gaz said:
Also, yeah, this might be the timeline where the likes of Dong Zhuo, Lu Bu and Gongsun "fuck the tribes, all my homies hate the tribes" Zan become actual, legit heroes. Holy shit.
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May the butterflies cause more interesting times.
 
Erzherzog_Karl said:
It is kind of lucky how things come together for us. Most likely Dong Zhuo's army will come to Bing, Lu Bu is close by and we even have a great target to kill. All the ingredients for a massive windfall in contributions and rewards. Depending on how things go, I would not be surprised if Lu Bu gets a title early. Maybe not Marquis like in OTL but something impressive.
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Eh, if we win this battle against Chu Yan and Ding doesn't get trampled outright by the Turbans before Lu Bu gets back there, chances are Dong will sit there for a while longer, the Han wouldn't really need to give the resources to build an army to him, things would generally be under control, especially with greater success fighting the Turbans closer to the capitol.

More likely he'll be sent to Liang Province, which is set for revolt very soon, a revolt regarded as far more important then even the Heishan Confederacy. Once we secure Bing we can probably direct our forces there in support, win a bit more glory and secure ourselves a foothold in the province for when we become a Warlord.
 
McLuvin said:
Ding doesn't get trampled outright by the Turbans before Lu Bu gets back there,
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The big thing is whether or not Ding Yuan survives or not. Because I can see all the things so many people could stand to gain should he... come up short.

-A staunch and capable ally of He Jin is removed.
-Bing Province is suddenly leaderless and while already on the brink, is pushed further into chaos
-A Provincial Inspector position just opened up
-Sudden opportunities for quick military advancement and merit are available.

Like, there are a lot of people who could gain quite bigly should ol' Ding get got.
 
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SwordsmanofS said:
The big thing is whether or not Ding Yuan survives or not. Because I can see all the things so many people could stand to gain should he... come up short.

-An ally of He Jin is removed.
-Bing Province is suddenly leaderless and while already on the brink, is pushed further into chaos
-A Provincial Inspector position just opened up
-Sudden opportunities for quick military advancement and merit are available.

Like, there are a lot of people who could gain quite bigly should ol' Ding get got.
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we do need to watch who gets all that.
Considering the politics of the time a noble or a powerful gentry is more likely
 
SwordsmanofS said:
The big thing is whether or not Ding Yuan survives or not. Because I can see all the things so many people could stand to gain should he... come up short.

-A staunch and capable ally of He Jin is removed.
-Bing Province is suddenly leaderless and while already on the brink, is pushed further into chaos
-A Provincial Inspector position just opened up
-Sudden opportunities for quick military advancement and merit are available.

Like, there are a lot of people who could gain quite bigly should ol' Ding get got.
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I'm not banking on his death but if it does happen, Dong will be there to benefit.
 
SwordsmanofS said:
The big thing is whether or not Ding Yuan survives or not. Because I can see all the things so many people could stand to gain should he... come up short.

-A staunch and capable ally of He Jin is removed.
-Bing Province is suddenly leaderless and while already on the brink, is pushed further into chaos
-A Provincial Inspector position just opened up
-Sudden opportunities for quick military advancement and merit are available.

Like, there are a lot of people who could gain quite bigly should ol' Ding get got.
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Ding does have a very well equipped and led army, that is experienced and well trained.

Even if someone takes a shot at him, the guy isn't totally incompetent, he got to his position from being a commoner, and he isn't without ruthlessness, he burned a city to send a message I believe.

Don't count your chickens before they hatch. Especially with the possibility of either Ding, or if we get there, Liang Shu, adding the strength of the Tribes to Dings army.
 
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