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To Establish Peace - A Romance of the Three Kingdoms Quest

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Thanatosra said:
Wait is the guy leading the yellow turbans in Bing one of the three brothers
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Yes, Zhang Bao, he ravaged You, leading to the discontent that killed Liu Yi, then allied with the Heishan Bandits to cross the mountains, before turning on them and starting the three way battle in the North.

Due to QM comments I believe Chu Yan may be working with him even as he fights the other bandits.

If we crush Chu Yan here and team up with Lu Bu to fight the Yellow Turbans using Ding's army, we will be facing one of the Three Generals of the Yellow Turban Uprising, namely the General of the Earth.
 
Gaz said:
I personally respect the hell out of Liu Bei, Cao Cao, Sun Jian and Sun Ce. (Sun Quan became a drunken madman, so I dislike him because I'm in that picture and I don't like it)
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What did Sun Quan do?

I gotta respect all three being older to understand their successes and failings.

Liu Bei a guy from rags to establishing a power base after numerous failures. A successful warlord politician that one with his behavior that enticed many to his service.

Cao Cao as the one who had the lion's share of ancient China after close calls of military ventures got the best military but even then it did not guarantee success at Red Cliffs. Perhaps that contributed to his head pains that killed him he could beat many but he could not beat the remaining in his lifetime.

The Sun family that was said to be descended from Sun Tzu? Pretty good start with Sun Jian already working in the government and also warlord ready.

Sun Ce a brilliant military man who came who saw and who took by force the South lands just like that.

Sun Quan who inherited it all but had the makings of a leader at times of great crisis to let the best of his officers do what they do best. No match for Zhang Liao with twice the men but good at deception to seize Jing from Guan Yu and defend against Liu's revenge attack.

Overall successful enough warlords to take powerbases from others and poach their men to last long enough to be the last remaining ones before Sima Yi's successor like Ieyasu got to eat the cake.
 
rx915 said:
So what? It's the only source there is about him and the other people living in that time and that's what will supplement this quest.

If it was really that easy to discredit his lineage his enemies would've done it in their propoganda as the son of a bastard, son of a cuckold affair or son of a deluded mother with dementia because a random man claiming with the family of Liu had a fling with her with their records.
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You are aware that the two sources you named give different names for imperial ancestor. First strike against him being truly related.

Yes, and this source is extremely suspect in that claim. If he had any of it he would not just name only his father and grandfather but all members of the line of Liu Zhen or Liu Fu. But they are not named. A normal family tree over three hundred years has roughly 12 generations. We know three from them, one, the source of the claim and the direct ancestors for him(Liu Bei). No sign of any connection. This makes the overall claim highly suspect. If you want to claim an ancestor, you normally have the line written out. Second strike for me against it actually being fact and not just a baseless claim or even just family legend. In every other circumstance someone claiming such a connection, would get laughed out of the room.

Then there comes the circumstances of when this all was announced. The point about his lineage was historically brought up when he himself became de facto emperor of Han or Shu-Han as it is better known. Because contrary to the King of Wu or the King of Wei, Liu Bei had no actual high rank title and could not claim some great connection to the Han court. He declared himself King of Hanzhong. Shu-Han was in dire need of a justification and there you have this obtuse connection. It is so vague, so old and considering Liu Zhen is said to have had 100 sons hard near impossible to disprove. Third strike.

Some of it would make me doubtful of his claim but all of it makes questions completely. Why it was never made a big deal of is actually simple. For the same reason you don't give true attention to claims about aliens or "fake news comments" or hoaxs. It is not worth it. The people followed Liu Bei for his massive charisma, abilities as a leader and not because he was the great^10 grandfather was a member of the imperial family. Like stated his claim is incredibly hard to disprove, but the burden of proof in this case should actually lay with the claimant and not someone else. If I claim to be a member of the Imperial family, I have to bring forth proof. If it is lacking, the claim is shit.

Furthermore, as I already said it is frankly speaking ridiculous to claim relations to another person from an ancestor 300 years ago. Considering how nowadays the biggest ancestry tree is reaching back 500 years and includes millions of people, it should become obvious how ambiguous or how much worth such a connection, if it truly existed, truly has/had. To give you a number in the 12th generation he would have roughly over 4000 ancestors (4096), if there was no incest or marriage to close relatives. The part of his ancestors that would have been an imperial would not even be one percent (0,024).

I have a closer connection with my ancestors who fought in the Napoleonic War or some people in Israel then Liu Bei has with the Imperial Family, if his claim was true.
 
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rx915 said:
Sun Quan who inherited it all but had the makings of a leader at times of great crisis to let the best of his officers do what they do best. No match for Zhang Liao with twice the men but good at deception to seize Jing from Guan Yu and defend against Liu's revenge attack.
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Sun Quan was a good guy when he was young, and did very well after inheriting a bad situation.

Sadly as he became older, he slipped down the drain very quickly. Whether it is due to all the partying and drinking he indulged in or something else is unclear.

He turned a blind eye to the crimes of generals like Pan Zhang and Gan Ning. He pissed off his court on several occasions. He set fire to Zhang Zhao's gate. He almost went to war with Gongsun Yuan over horses. He sent a navy to conquer a mythical island, and when 90% of them were killed, he executed the 10% that returned. He set up his court and successors in a way to encourage ASOIAF style cut throat politics, resulting in the Crown Prince affair. He shamed the hell out of Lu Xun. The list goes on.
 
Gaz said:
Sun Quan was a good guy when he was young, and did very well after inheriting a bad situation.

Sadly as he became older, he slipped down the drain very quickly. Whether it is due to all the partying and drinking he indulged in or something else is unclear.

He turned a blind eye to the crimes of generals like Pan Zhang and Gan Ning. He pissed off his court on several occasions. He set fire to Zhang Zhao's gate. He almost went to war with Gongsun Yuan over horses. He sent a navy to conquer a mythical island, and when 90% of them were killed, he executed the 10% that returned. He set up his court and successors in a way to encourage ASOIAF style cut throat politics, resulting in the Crown Prince affair. He shamed the hell out of Lu Xun. The list goes on.
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Stuff like this really reminds me why I prefer the Dynasty Warriors-Versions of these Characters. So much more fun and sympathetic in many Points.
 
Erzherzog_Karl said:
You are aware that the two sources you named give different names for imperial ancestor. First strike against him being truly related.

Yes, and this source is extremely suspect in that claim. If he had any of it he would not just name only his father and grandfather but all members of the line of Liu Zhen or Liu Fu. But they are not named. A normal family tree over three hundred years has roughly 12 generations. We know three from them, one, the source of the claim and the direct ancestors for him(Liu Bei). No sign of any connection. This makes the overall claim highly suspect. If you want to claim an ancestor, you normally have the line written out. Second strike for me against it actually being fact and not just a baseless claim or even just family legend. In every other circumstance someone claiming such a connection, would get laughed out of the room.

Then there comes the circumstances of when this all was announced. The point about his lineage was historically brought up when he himself became de facto emperor of Han or Shu-Han as it is better known. Because contrary to the King of Wu or the King of Wei, Liu Bei had no actual high rank title and could not claim some great connection to the Han court. He declared himself King of Hanzhong. Shu-Han was in dire need of a justification and there you have this obtuse connection. It is so vague, so old and considering Liu Zhen is said to have had 200 sons hard near impossible to disprove. Third strike.

Some of it would make me doubtful of his claim but all of it makes questions completely. Why it was never made a big deal of is actually simple. For the same reason you don't give true attention to claims about aliens or "fake news comments" or hoaxs. It is not worth it. The people followed Liu Bei for his massive charisma, abilities as a leader and not because he was the great^10 grandfather was a member of the imperial family. Like stated his claim is incredibly hard to disprove, but the burden of proof in this case should actually lay with the claimant and not someone else. If I claim to be a member of the Imperial family, I have to bring forth proof. If it is lacking, the claim is shit.

Furthermore, as I already said it is frankly speaking ridiculous to claim relations to another person from an ancestor 300 years ago. Considering how nowadays the biggest ancestry tree is reaching back 500 years and includes millions of people, it should become obvious how ambiguous or how much worth such a connection, if it truly existed, truly has/had.

I have a closer connection with my ancestors who fought in the Napoleonic War or some people in Israel then Liu Bei has with the Imperial Family, if his claim was true.
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Yes I'm aware. It means he does have a lineage but conflict at which one instead of disputing his claims are false.

A lineage is just a lineage. It didn't do the Yuans any good when it all came crashing done.

As you said he had ability and that was what allowed followers to stick with him from the lowest to the highest moments. Ridiculous or not he staked his claim and people still followed unlike Yuan Shu.

Which Liu Zhen are you talking about?
 
I slightly updated Ge Maiyu's profile. What, you thought she was being honest about her abilities? Might even give Maiyu her own seperate mini-informational like Chu Yan has at this point.
 
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@Gaz Hello! I have been reading and i gotta say this is pretty a awesome quest but i gotta wonder though will we meet Lianshi?
 
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BuKoG said:
@Gaz Hello! I have been reading and i gotta say this is pretty awesome quest but i gotta wonder though will we meet Lianshi?
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Welcome! Glad you're enjoying it! If you mean Bu Lianshi, aka favoured lady of Sun Quan, sure she could appear! I don't -think- she is born yet, though! Or, if she has been, she would be very very young as of the current date in the quest. If we get that far, maybe she can meet Liang Shu's son or daughter in the future?
 
rx915 said:
Which Liu Zhen are you talking about?
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The marquis, who lost his title. I made a mistake it was over 100 not 200. Still, a weird claim.

I don't deny the historical Liu Bei's abilities, but for me it is a bullshit claim like the one from Frederick the Great that he had one on Silesia. A simple/smart political move to grant a pragmatic power grab the venue of legitimacy. Calling it bullshit does not detract from the achievements of the person, who made that claim. Liu Bei was the comeback kid of the era. Capable of leading his rag tack team of retainers through more losses than any other. Holding them together through sheer power of personality and charisma. That is impressive, but I still find it ridiculous how big of a deal is made out of his claim of Imperial Lineage and personally dispute its existence.

I would not say the lineage of the Yuans was the thing that mattered, I mean the initial phase of the era after Dong Zhuo was nothing more than a Yuan Civil war. The big contestant Yuan Shao and Yuan Shu. Their massive network of patronage and retainers was a big deal. The wealth they had accumulated over time also mattered. To reduce them to simply their lineage is wrong. The two great Yuans are getting a bad reputation in the fandom most of the time. Even though they have some of the most compelling narratives possible. One a true hero, who falls and the other someone who in a world of pretentiousness and false humility took a stand and openly confessed to the ambition many other warlords had.
Gaz said:
I slightly updated Ge Maiyu's profile. What, you thought she was being honest about her abilities? Might even give Maiyu her own seperate mini-informational like Chu Yan has at this point.
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...ah the Bandit Empress begins her rise. How devious. Does this mean she failed her task with the mercenaries deliberately?
 
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Gaz said:
Welcome! Glad you're enjoying it! If you mean Bu Lianshi, aka favoured lady of Sun Quan, sure she could appear! I don't -think- she is born yet, though! Or, if she has been, she would be very very young as of the current date in the quest. If we get that far, maybe she can meet Liang Shu's son or daughter in the future?
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Yeah! that will be awesome!
 
Erzherzog_Karl said:
...ah the Bandit Empress begins her rise. How devious.
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Before I forget, Karl, would it be kosher if I used some of the names you included in your Maiyu negaverse post? Already have a list but could always flesh it out more!

also yes in hindsight, any and all actions she would have taken under your faction would have "somehow" failed
 
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