- Location
- Staring into the void
You can't damage what you can't hit, and you can't hit what you can't see. Stealth and speed all the way.
Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)
- Thread starter yrsillar
- Start date
- Original Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
- Location
- United States of America
I see a couple of problems with this analysis. I don't believe the question is "what does stealth allow us to replace" but rather "what does stealth enhance" and "what is the opportunity cost."
If we want a stronger defense, then exchanging our time cultivating direct offensive arts for stealth arts is a viable tradeoff. Thinking about stealth "replacing" something is, I think, the wrong way to go about this as it leads to linear replacements in specific fields rather than the myriad ways we can divide our time.
Next is the analysis that the main threat for a stealth build is "AoE and high-perception high-accuracy sniper builds." But that analysis falls apart even when we are taking stealth in a vacuum. It is AoE and High-perception anything. It doesn't need to be a sniper build, a pure stealth art will be countered by high-perception. High accuracy is only needed if the target has high dodge.
Which brings up the next point. High armor and high dodge both can counter AoE's and high-perception attacks. Simply look at our AoE's to demonstrate this point. Dissonance creates phantoms that tear and rend in an area around the caster, and yet they are perfectly dodgeable by one skilled enough. Unless the AoE is filled with physical material, then we have the ability to dodge it given our ability to become insubstantial. Even explosions are dodgeable as we can dodge through the shockwave. Similarly, high perception attacks like Ji Rong's homing laser are dodgeable, especially since we are able to dodge through attacks.
Additionally, there is synergy just in the number of things to train should we go for dodge and stealth. Both of which rely on Dexterity. Even more so when you consider our domain weapon and PLR's dance. Armor requires stamina which trains significantly fewer things than Dexterity does for us. Which means that training dodge/stealth instead of armor/stealth is a difference of 1 attribute to train.
So, to wrap this up, stealth has mechanical synergy with dodge, dodge is perfectly capable of dodging high-perception and AoE attacks, which are the counters to having stealth as a part of our defensive set up, and stealth should be used in addition to our defensive suite rather than as a replacement for part of it.
- Location
- The United States
- Pronouns
- He/They
That may be valid.
Against Peers that specialize in AOE though,I'd rather not put all my eggs in one basket without WAAAAY more movement and/or stealth.
Regardless though, we still need some sort of physical defense capability going on.
While in the short term we can be choosy with the cultivators we fight to avoid such matchups, eventually we're going to be expected to be able to share a battlefield with enemies a bit stronger than us, so being able to take at least one hit in order to Escape Talisman or call out to Baron "My Only Job Here is Engress and Exit" is rather important.
Random aside,
We know that TRF is a Weilu art because of both it's flavor-text combined with their lore and from the Bloody Moon Nightmare where the Horned Prince accused of learning it by torturing/killing one of his relatives.
In addition to the Traditional 5 the Weilu practiced Sun, Moon, and Darkness.
I think that there's a TRF successor art that uses Moon and/or Darkness.
Furthermore, I think the Sect has a copy.
Why? Number 3 of the Sect is a Moon Cultivator, and Ying gave us TRF.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
We have spirits that are really good at tanking the purpose of stealth in a combat for us is not to hide, but to help them draw aggro.
Not that I think it'll be an issue, but my reading was more that TRF adds to a cultivator's inherent durability, and will do less good for a mortal, rather than actively harm them.
TRF makes Ling Qi pretty tanky, but Ling Qi is already pretty tough without it. Will it be enough for mortals to tank Green Zhengui's poison and fire?
Mind you, if Ling Qi doesn't think TRF is enough, then she'd probably make some defensive formations or something. I'm just nitpicking.
- Location
- The United States
- Pronouns
- He/They
I reread TRF to make sure, but the only thing to exlude mortals is...
While that RAW would exclude family, I wouldn't put too much stock in a single word that is probably in a list on Yrs' Google Drive labeled "Names with variety for Art Targets".
Even if it doesn't, the 10 Armor passive it gives to them is a lot.
Most importantly though, Ling Qi is smarter than us, knows how her her Arts work on a far more detailed level than us, doesn't want to hurt her family, and will give more thought to this than any one of us.
Besides, even if the whole affair is incredibly shocking for our less Enlightened family, we've got Harmony of the Dancing Wind, specifically Summer's Day's Rising to smooth things over. We've never seen word that
would translate to "Trauma Resistance", but to me that doesn't seem like too generous of a reading.
- Location
- At the end of the world
Also Dexterity is our only uncapped Physical Attribute, it isn't that significant for now, but would be in the near future. We just mechanically can't train armor/stealth build further than dodge/stealth one.
I'd make a note that the main drawback of stealth for US specifically...is that Team Support specialty finds it hard to play nice with Stealth unless there is an ability to perform Team Stealth. Noting of course that Cai Renxiang who we'd be supporting has arts which offer little to no subtlety.
Black Noise
Curious
- Location
- About 1AU from Sol
That's just wrong. The only kind of team support that doesn't work with personal stealth is "tank hits for others", everything else is fine. Better even since we're harder to take out of a fight and remove our support that way.
The actual cost of stealth is the opportunity cost of getting the skill to a high rank and getting an art to support it. These costs are notably lower for us than for most others since so many of our arts already play nice with stealth (FVM, PLR, SCS, EPC), and stat-wise we're still a Dex-focused build with effective B stealth skill. The marginal cost of relevant stealth is one art and ~75xp to get the skill to S.
- Location
- At the end of the world
Also, we have team stealth tech... well Sixiang has.
Near means 10 meters, enough to include even ZhenGui.
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EternalObserver
eYe Gaze baCk
- Location
- The Void
Reminds me a bit of when Xuan Shi made the Formation for the Ji Rong ambush. For that one, the drawback would be the lack of movement. One has to stay there in order to be hidden.
Diomedea
A piece of the continent
- Location
- The interblag
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Stealth actually has wonderful synergy with team support. It means you can't gank the support, so must face the fully buffed team. Add in Ling Qi's area control/aoe style, she can still attack while stealthed, not even factoring in her spirit's contributions to a fight. She can also gank the enemy support with CtE, which if she lines it up properly with arts is a very brutal amount of damage in a very short time.
we do not. Neither Hanyi nor Sixiang can play tank. Zhengui tried in the tournament (i.e. against Ji Rong) and failed because he has no taunt and is too slow (both speed and initiative) to intercept.
- Location
- United States of America
Inserted tally
Bao Qingling
EternalObserver
eYe Gaze baCk
- Location
- The Void
Now here's more art on Li Suyin......'s teacher
Included a head canon in it
So yeah, I have a head canon that she has a spider that attaches itself on her back to add more limbs for her
Hope we interact with her more in the future. Planning for next one to be Yan Renshu
@yrsillar another one
Included a head canon in it
So yeah, I have a head canon that she has a spider that attaches itself on her back to add more limbs for her
Hope we interact with her more in the future. Planning for next one to be Yan Renshu
@yrsillar another one
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- Location
- California
The plan is to let Hanyi stay on top of Zhengui so that she can use LWM's taunt to bring opponents to Zhengui. LWM also prevents Hanyi from being attacked so long as she is able to land it. Hanyi is vulnerable if LWM fails, but she will have Zhengui and us as backup.
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As I see it, Stealth has the following combat uses:
(1) still lets you avoid being targeted, but that just means the enemy can target someone else. Unless the stealth user was the most valuable target, the enemy wouldn't want to target them anyways - and unless they are the most valuable target by a meaningful margin, the enemy doesn't lose much by just attacking someone else instead.
(3) Still lets you disengage from combat, but does nothing for your allies. If we are fighting with other cultivators, we would have to leave them behind to their own devices; if we are fighting with our bound spirits, we must either do the same or get to each of them to dematerialize them before fleeing.
- Boost Defense by making one untargettable by many attacks
- Boost Offense by enabling Sneak Attacks (which normally only provide a small bonus, but which might potentially be boostable by appropriate arts)
- Enhance one's ability to disengage from combat
(1) still lets you avoid being targeted, but that just means the enemy can target someone else. Unless the stealth user was the most valuable target, the enemy wouldn't want to target them anyways - and unless they are the most valuable target by a meaningful margin, the enemy doesn't lose much by just attacking someone else instead.
(3) Still lets you disengage from combat, but does nothing for your allies. If we are fighting with other cultivators, we would have to leave them behind to their own devices; if we are fighting with our bound spirits, we must either do the same or get to each of them to dematerialize them before fleeing.
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fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
They can if we stealth.
Hanyi doesnt have the defensive stats to play tank, She is a DPS/CC focused build. Sixiang has absolutely no way to tank damage as they dont have a body, so they wont be a tank either. Zhengui, as i wrote before, couldnt play tank as he had no way to focus attacks on himself and was too slow to keep up if the opponent just went somewhere else or jumped over him.
And while i dont mind having stealth, I feel like it is getting overhyped here: There should be a reason (or more) why stealth builds arent the only one that exists in the story (which is what would happen if it was the clearly best option). That could be the existence of perception arts that can counter it for example or maybe other reasons (i.e. something being hard to hide, maybe?)
We also should consider in what situations LQ would need to fight: a formal duel is not the same as the defense of a soft target or an attack against a barbarian tribe. Stealth has different utility in those scenarios. (i.e. it would be awesome for the attack, probably still but not as useful on the defense and a lot less useful in the duel, when the arena is small enough that one can just hit everything)
And while i dont mind having stealth, I feel like it is getting overhyped here: There should be a reason (or more) why stealth builds arent the only one that exists in the story (which is what would happen if it was the clearly best option). That could be the existence of perception arts that can counter it for example or maybe other reasons (i.e. something being hard to hide, maybe?)
We also should consider in what situations LQ would need to fight: a formal duel is not the same as the defense of a soft target or an attack against a barbarian tribe. Stealth has different utility in those scenarios. (i.e. it would be awesome for the attack, probably still but not as useful on the defense and a lot less useful in the duel, when the arena is small enough that one can just hit everything)
Varder
Tired Cultist
- Location
- Hell
Take out the mage, then the support is a usual tactic for dealing with groups though. In a setting where everyone is a mage, supports are the first priority imo.
- Location
- Fabulously Rainbow Ireland
What part of this is hard to understand?
Why are you guys so focused on stealth's potential combat use? Isn't avoiding undesirable battles the entire point of stealth?
I want more stealth mainly to help us to acquire more resources, like we did in the Outer Sect. The ability to bypass enemies and defenses will also make almost any mission we take easier and safer.
I want more stealth mainly to help us to acquire more resources, like we did in the Outer Sect. The ability to bypass enemies and defenses will also make almost any mission we take easier and safer.
