Remove ads

Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Reader mode
yrsillar said:
-Ling Qi receives a 10 point bonus to Social Perception when attempting to discern lies or see through illusions.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Update on this, confirming via 3rd party PM that this is the correct phrasing and reads like it appears to; the bonus is restricted to Social Perception solely, even in the case of illusions. Not sure if @yrsillar's refined his concept for the Domain lesson from AM or it was simply intended to be this way from the start, but it's disappointing.

Slotting mastered Green arts to our domain is a permanent, irrevocable decision with reasonably significant impacts on character direction even aside from mechanical concerns. It's the kind of decision I'm wary about being altered retroactively, and the above simply isn't what players voted for at the time. The debate around which lesson to take (taking none wasn't in the running, really) involved the question of applicability pretty heavily, with both main camps claiming their preference was superior in terms of applying the perk. I don't think we've ever seen a social illusion from a peer and it seems heavily redundant with the bonus to discerning lies unless it somehow double dips when a social foe is aiding their deception with illusion. Cutting out non-social illusions is more or less halving the applications the players voted to take into their Domain.

I don't know if this version would have changed the player choice, ultimately, but it's frustrating lingering question to have, and it's very uncomfortable moving forwards. It's especially so with the already complicated debate over whether or not to train the other two, non-mastered, Argent arts. I can't speak for others, but I'm feeling a real chilling effect on mastering any art but one with overwhelming thematic connection to Ling Qi's established character and direction, purely because of the prospect of Domain slotting.
 
Neshuakadal said:
From elder Jiao's interlude
"There did remain some advantages to physicality, Jiao mused. "Yes, I suppose so," he replied, the majority of his attention still spread through the newly formed basin, exterminating the plague mutated spirits and fauna. It was a little irritating that the barbarian child had been slain by an arrow, death imprints pulled from a bow were less clear than those of a blade. "Gnawing Ones, hm," it had been clear enough to see pale, long faced figures loping in the dark, and a great deal of teeth, flesh and spirit offered in return for the tools of vengeance."

My best guess is that these creatures are related to the gnawing ones and I have a theory about what gnawing ones are.

What we know about the creation of the world right now means a massive amount of spiritual toxins and "mixed essence" or impurities were created at the very beginning. One of the key things in many spiritual ideas is that purity ascends upward while impure things descend downwards. We can see some proof that empire believes this too in the world building interlude.

"The first days of the world were harsh indeed. The bones of our Mother yet quaked endlessly, and the divine ichor of the multitude of enemies that our most honored progenitors had slain still boiled close to the surface, toxic to the children of the creators." (Emphasis mine.)

This says to me that since the divine ichor was close to the surface but importantly under the surface. It may have simple sunk below the surface instead of just disappearing. Now we get to the really interesting thought I had about the creation of the world.

"The dolls needed more motion. He poured greater essence into the effort, going so far as to longer puppet the dolls, but to infuse them himself," Elder Ying smiled. "And so, his essence mingled with the Mothers, and from it was born two things. Understanding, and the very first humans."" (Week 24)
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
This makes sense, the chaotic mass of undifferentiated energies is unlikely to cease to be.
Neshuakadal said:
From this tidbit of the creation myth we see that humans were made before the great conflict that built the world. This would also explain why there are humans inhabiting places all around the world. During that great conflict humans were separated from the nameless mother and nameless father in that chaotic period. This lead to them simple being in different places when the process was done. This neatly gets around the need for the migratory routes that would be needed to spread a species over such massive distances. Since this is a death world I do not believe that migratory routes survive very long. There are simply to many different threats for a migratory system to be viable. This means however that creatures and humans could have been trapped underground during the creation stage.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I'd dispute this by the very existence of nomadic human populations being present in every non Imperial biome.
People will travel. As long as the environment is not immediately or eventually lethal, but rather potentially lethal, humans will range out to seek resources. Sure, lots die, but arguably the existence of cultivators and spiritblooded means that they actually would have better odds than IRL stone age migrations.

Particularly when baseline humans are while fun to toy with, not especially valuable to the various spirits and beasts of the land. Not enough meat, not enough power. They'd kill of course, but they make more sport than prey.
Neshuakadal said:
We have seen from our breakthroughs and heard from our lectures that qi and impurities are incompatible with one another if not out right antithetical. If impurities sink and qi raises then going underground becomes a terrible dangerous task. There will come a point underground where there is less qi then there are impurities. This raises some very interesting ideas.

One of those ideas is that when that line is reached then it becomes easier to fill up spiritual cores with impurities then it is to get rid of them. This could result in a complete flipped form of cultivation where instead of trying to gather as much qi as possible the creatures and "humans" under this line try and gather as many impurities as possible. I say "humans" because we know from Elder Jiao's interlude that mutations are rampant were the gnawing ones get close to the surface. We also know from the weliu that very old and strange practices have a tendency to warp humanity. If this practice is true then I severely doubt that they would look anything like humans. However I don't believe that this is what is happening with the gnawing ones.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Um...thinking at this point you got things mangled.

Yrsillar had not stated outright, but the thing with impurity is that its not a definite, elemental force. Everything is qi. Cultivators expel impurity during breakthroughs by ordering their qi and venting what no longer matches their Way.

All mortal life is definitionally impure, just not to the extent the total chaotic mass of black gunk, but the partly ordered, partly chaotic state is where basically all mortal life is.
Neshuakadal said:
Another idea is that once the line where qi density is less the the impurity density then every scrap of qi becomes that much more precious. I do think that the gnawing ones are humans who were trapped underground at the beginning of the world and they are desperate for every drop of qi they can get. We know from elder Hua that everything is made of qi. Even mortal flesh,blood, and teeth have qi in them. The qi in such objects would be greater than if they were created underground because of the differing qi/impurities ratio. If the gnawing ones are desperate for every scrap of qi they can get in their impurity laden world than offering such physical things that they could extract qi from would be very tempting for those gnawing ones. The plauge that Elder Jiao describes may also serve another purpose than just mutating things. If the qi that is bound in physical objects is the best way to get qi than a method for extracting that qi is needed. A method that would induce instability to the qi so that it's purpose or form shifted would likely be ideal for breaking down the physical world into a more spiritual form. This would then allow for much easier consumption of the qi. Qi that is shifting wildly into different forms may cause mutations. The plague that was unleashed by the barbarian kid may have just been a form of the gnawing ones cultivation art.

In such an environment a new breed of spiritual beast might be created through evolution. Li Suyin has already discovered how valuable those "cores" are in ripping impurities from an environment. Where large numbers of those creatures gather cultivating qi would be easier because those creatures are eating all the impurities one might other wise absorb.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Actually I'd think they attract impurity because its what they have to work with. The mass of dead primordial ichor mixed chaotically beneath the earth represents an endless fount of power...for anything that could digest it.

AbeoLogos said:
I don't know if this version would have changed the player choice, ultimately, but it's frustrating lingering question to have, and it's very uncomfortable moving forwards. It's especially so with the already complicated debate over whether or not to train the other two, non-mastered, Argent arts. I can't speak for others, but I'm feeling a real chilling effect on mastering any art but one with overwhelming thematic connection to Ling Qi's established character and direction, purely because of the prospect of Domain slotting.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Personally it would not have had any effect. The preference to slot Argent Mirror was there ever since we learned of Domain slots.
And again, the chilling effect is imaginary, because there is a pretty damned strong consensus that Argent Storm and Argent Current would not be it, and that Abyssal Exhalation would very likely not be it.

Its just your personal dislike for those arts here I'm afraid.
 
veekie said:
Personally it would not have had any effect. The preference to slot Argent Mirror was there ever since we learned of Domain slots.
And again, the chilling effect is imaginary, because there is a pretty damned strong consensus that Argent Storm and Argent Current would not be it, and that Abyssal Exhalation would very likely not be it.

Its just your personal dislike for those arts here I'm afraid.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
There was another option other than not slotting it:
yrsillar said:
[] Internalize Argent Mirror
-[] Ling Qi and Allies of at least four dots positive relation within one hundred meters may reroll a failed perception test once per combat or scene.
-[] Ling Qi receives a four die bonus when attempting to discern lies or see through illusions.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I for one regarded these somewhat equally and would've been swayed to the former if I'd known it wasn't all illusions. What next; do lies that are made in a combat context not count?


As to consensus around Abyssal Exhalation, I haven't seen a single person talk about liking the art and not wanting to slot it. Most of what I see written about our domain is that lessons are filtered through our theme so we can comfortably slot anything we cultivate.
 
Last edited:
AbeoLogos said:
Update on this, confirming via 3rd party PM that this is the correct phrasing and reads like it appears to; the bonus is restricted to Social Perception solely, even in the case of illusions. Not sure if @yrsillar's refined his concept for the Domain lesson from AM or it was simply intended to be this way from the start, but it's disappointing.

Slotting mastered Green arts to our domain is a permanent, irrevocable decision with reasonably significant impacts on character direction even aside from mechanical concerns. It's the kind of decision I'm wary about being altered retroactively, and the above simply isn't what players voted for at the time. The debate around which lesson to take (taking none wasn't in the running, really) involved the question of applicability pretty heavily, with both main camps claiming their preference was superior in terms of applying the perk. I don't think we've ever seen a social illusion from a peer and it seems heavily redundant with the bonus to discerning lies unless it somehow double dips when a social foe is aiding their deception with illusion. Cutting out non-social illusions is more or less halving the applications the players voted to take into their Domain.

I don't know if this version would have changed the player choice, ultimately, but it's frustrating lingering question to have, and it's very uncomfortable moving forwards. It's especially so with the already complicated debate over whether or not to train the other two, non-mastered, Argent arts. I can't speak for others, but I'm feeling a real chilling effect on mastering any art but one with overwhelming thematic connection to Ling Qi's established character and direction, purely because of the prospect of Domain slotting.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Devil's advocate: Comparing the effect to only itself is dishonest, there are potential balance concerns between it and the foundational Domain effect.
yrsillar said:
Allies in a scene with whom Ling Qi has at least four ranks of positive relation receive a 10 point bonus to spiritual avoid and armor, and a 5 point bonus resolve and composure
-Ling Qi receives a 10 point bonus to Social Perception when attempting to discern lies or see through illusions.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Here we see that the first, base, ability is quite broad in effect, but it is also punishingly restrictive. Though it applies to other people, it doesn't apply to Ling Qi herself, and there are only 3 people in the universe that it effects. Arguably, an ability that applies a bonus to seeing through lies and all kinds of illusions would be too close to matching the power of the foundation of our Domain, and @yrsillar therefore felt it was necessary to reduce the scope of its effects to reflect its subordinate and less-developed nature.

veekie said:
Personally it would not have had any effect. The preference to slot Argent Mirror was there ever since we learned of Domain slots.
And again, the chilling effect is imaginary, because there is a pretty damned strong consensus that Argent Storm and Argent Current would not be it, and that Abyssal Exhalation would very likely not be it.

Its just your personal dislike for those arts here I'm afraid.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
You misunderstand. I was talking about the choice between the two lessons being offered by AM, not between choosing to slot the art or not. The chilling effect I'm talking about is less the fear of slotting certain arts than it is the fear of misleading choices. The already heavily congruent arts seem less likely to contain choices that could betray player expectations to the same degree if they turn out to be confusingly or erroneously stated. My uncertainty is with appealing looking lessons that turn out to be lemons compared to what they promised.
 
Last edited:
AbeoLogos said:
I don't know if this version would have changed the player choice, ultimately, but it's frustrating lingering question to have, and it's very uncomfortable moving forwards. It's especially so with the already complicated debate over whether or not to train the other two, non-mastered, Argent arts. I can't speak for others, but I'm feeling a real chilling effect on mastering any art but one with overwhelming thematic connection to Ling Qi's established character and direction, purely because of the prospect of Domain slotting.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I can say that for me this version would not have changed how I voted. While rehashing the reasons why I voted for this insight would be both fruitless and meaningless, I am perfectly content with the current version. I'm also not particularly concerned about mastering more arts because figuring out what is overwhelming thematic for Ling Qi is very difficult and pretty much impossible to decide for other people. This is demonstrated by the fact that I can make the case where AE is overwhelming thematic to Ling Qi, on par with, or even more than, TRF or FVM. Now some arts may not be overwhelming thematic, but that criteria does not actually reduce the arts we would be considering mastering when we are getting arts that fit with what we want to do.

I agree that we need to be cautious about what we fit in our domain, but I'm not having a chilling effect for mastering arts because of that.

George said:
As to consensus around Abyssal Exhalation, I haven't seen a single person talk about liking the art and not wanting to slot it. Most of what I see written about our domain is that lessons are filtered through our theme so we can comfortably slot anything we cultivate.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I like the art and I don't want to slot it. Despite my claim I made above where I said I can make the case that AE is very thematic for Ling Qi, I don't think that the domain lessons would be healthy for Ling Qi in the long run. It would probably a very powerful lesson, and extremely potent, but injecting themes of hunger and consumption into our domain might cause problems.

As for slotting anything we care to cultivate into our domain because it is filtered through our theme, while I suppose that's possible it would probably make for a weakened domain. Really, we are looking for synergies that build upon the effects we already have while promoting our theme of home (however we define it). The possible TRF insights is a good example because I can see it doing the exact same thing as our original domain effect, only for physical. These two insights synergize creating a stronger whole for the people affected by our domain.
 
Thor's Twin said:
I like the art and I don't want to slot it. Despite my claim I made above where I said I can make the case that AE is very thematic for Ling Qi, I don't think that the domain lessons would be healthy for Ling Qi in the long run. It would probably a very powerful lesson, and extremely potent, but injecting themes of hunger and consumption into our domain might cause problems.

As for slotting anything we care to cultivate into our domain because it is filtered through our theme, while I suppose that's possible it would probably make for a weakened domain. Really, we are looking for synergies that build upon the effects we already have while promoting our theme of home (however we define it). The possible TRF insights is a good example because I can see it doing the exact same thing as our original domain effect, only for physical. These two insights synergize creating a stronger whole for the people affected by our domain.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Well, I guess we'll see, but I for one will be surprised when the day comes that we choose not to slot a mastered art.

Also, for the record, I think viewing our domain theme as just 'home' is oversimplifying things and makes TRF look comparatively better than AE than it does when you look at the full picture.

BungieONI said:
For a while at least.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Yeah, besides that constraint, I don't agree with the assertion anyway. It's just the closest thing to a consensus opinion I've read.
 
I'm mostly confused by what the Lesson we incorporated means in the context of our broader Domain. At one point, yrsillar described it as sort of a warden role to keep her Home safe by keeping an eye out for threats. With it now being restricted to social-only, that's not an invalid take, but feels like it better represents a gatekeeper theme instead or something. Knowing what choices we have made in the past is important for making choices in the future.
 
George said:
Also, for the record, I think viewing our domain theme as just 'home' is oversimplifying things and makes TRF look comparatively better than AE than it does when you look at the full picture.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
This somewhat ignores the stuff from the first thread. Particularly these things:

yrsillar said:
Softly, Lightly, without the slightest sound, Ling Qi stepped from the cliff and flew. The night wind made her gown and loose hair flutter as she soared over the misty lake, toward the welcome of the peak. It was the place where she belonged, she knew. While she could warm herself at the fireside for a time, hide in the darkness or soar in the sky, none of those were her place.

None of those were her home.

How long had it been since had a home, really?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

yrsillar said:
As she set one foot in front of the other, ascending the peak with only three at her side, Ling Qi came to understand that which she truly desired.

Home. A place that was hers, and people to inhabit it. Family. Her bonds were frayed, Mother flickered in her sight, features changing to one icy and imperious, and then to one of warm silver eyes. She did not dare invite the girl behind her closer, afraid of what it could mean. Only Zhengui stood solid and wholly real at her side.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

yrsillar said:
It does offer some small variation, the reroll leans into making your domain a thing of self reflection, helping those within face their problems. The perception dice lean more toward external defense of the home, preventing your threshold from being invaded by those with false or malignant intentions. They both conform to the original 'seed' of your domain, and the lesson can change as you add to your domain and grow, or rather, your understanding of said lesson will change with the further context of other elements added.

That isn't to say that Argent Mirror doesn't make certain avenues more difficult. A disguise art or an art focused on theatrical performance, for example, would probably not mesh well with it, given the themes, though it wouldn't be impossible, since this is still early days. You're a long way from your domain becoming 'set' as it were



Sorry, yes the changes are retroactive.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...


Our vision on breaking through was all about the home and what is in it or not in it.
 
AbeoLogos said:
Arguably, an ability that applies a bonus to seeing through lies and all kinds of illusions would be too close to matching the power of the foundation of our Domain, and @yrsillar therefore felt it was necessary to reduce the scope of its effects to reflect its subordinate and less-developed nature.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I would be ok with smaller +5 point bonus to discern lies or see through illusions in all situations.
 
BungieONI said:
Our vision on breaking through was all about the home and what is in it or not in it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The focus on what is in it or not in it rather than comfort and security is just what I mean, though. We're every bit as prickly about who we let in as Bai Meizhen (both requiring 4 dots to count as an ally) and the lesson we took from Argent Mirror was one of being even more careful about that by making sure people can't lie to us to gain entry to our home.

Specifically as concerns TRF vs AE, I think our domain's theme of a secure location and an us vs them mentality would focus insights towards the bolded part of its description:
yrsillar said:
An art designed by a wanderer of the deep paths under the earth, where things best not seen gnaw at the foundations of the world. Yet in the darkness, he found truth. That earth and darkness are as one, devouring all things in the end. This art allows its user to surround themselves with that power; consume the energy of their foes, and call upon the things that lie in the dark.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
We're quick to exclude people from our home and, consulting the passage quoted just below this, conceive of that home as being at the peak of a mountain.
yrsillar said:
The mountain stretched overhead, the tune floating down from the peak of thing of welcome. What awaited her at the peak was beyond wretched double edged freedom, beyond power, or fleeting companionship. She would hold tightly to her friends, but in the end, such bonds changed. As she set one foot in front of the other, ascending the peak with only three at her side, Ling Qi came to understand that which she truly desired.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
There are strong parallels between foes having to scale our mountain to reach our home and us being surrounded by power and consuming the energy of our foes. AE would just change which element that defensive paradigm is viewed through.


For TRF, it seems clear this is the most likely portion:
yrsillar said:
An old and well polished art developed by a once powerful but defunct family within the Emerald Sea province. The user joins themselves to the qi of the land, becomes as one of the mighty trees which stand in the deepest forests of the province, vital and sturdy. Yet one tree is not a forest, and so the user may extend their vitality to their allies.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I think this focuses on the 'us' part, which fits what I would generally think of the word home, but the meaning of allies in TRF is whoever we choose at the moment, while for our domain it's only people we have a profound relationship with. A forest of trees is a much looser connection than what we are concerned with in our domain.
 
Personally I voted for that one specifically because I was concerned about Illusions in combat. I absolutely would've gone for the perception reroll if I'd known that wasn't applicable. Given that the Art itself gives +10 vs Illusions generally I do feel that it's a pretty big bait and switch.
 
Last edited:
AbeoLogos said:
Also I miss daggers, and what is needlework but stabbing over and over and over again?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Everything is stabbing if you think about it hard enough. Me typing this is stabbing my phone's screen with dagger-thumbs. This headache from thinking too hard about how to twist everything into being a form of stabbing is stabbing my brain. Etc.

AbeoLogos said:
If we comb our fancy hair with the comb enough, it'll awaken as a wind/stellar spirit.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Archangels of the Sephiroth era Stellar, or what?
 
George said:
The focus on what is in it or not in it rather than comfort and security is just what I mean, though. We're every bit as prickly about who we let in as Bai Meizhen (both requiring 4 dots to count as an ally) and the lesson we took from Argent Mirror was one of being even more careful about that by making sure people can't lie to us to gain entry to our home.

Specifically as concerns TRF vs AE, I think our domain's theme of a secure location and an us vs them mentality would focus insights towards the bolded part of its description:

We're quick to exclude people from our home and, consulting the passage quoted just below this, conceive of that home as being at the peak of a mountain.

There are strong parallels between foes having to scale our mountain to reach our home and us being surrounded by power and consuming the energy of our foes. AE would just change which element that defensive paradigm is viewed through.


For TRF, it seems clear this is the most likely portion:

I think this focuses on the 'us' part, which fits what I would generally think of the word home, but the meaning of allies in TRF is whoever we choose at the moment, while for our domain it's only people we have a profound relationship with. A forest of trees is a much looser connection than what we are concerned with in our domain.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
So... You're saying that TRF fits less than AE. I disagree because I think you are ignoring the point that they fit to different parts of the domain. In this case what I'm talking about is that TRF fits to the image one generally thinks of home, AE does not, and TRF can feasibly be held to fit to looser relationships(though I do have objections to this fit which I'll discuss later), and AE parallels some of the thematic portions of our domain vision itself in the sense of tighter relationships and hardship to make those connections.

As described in your quotes they each have one piece which agrees and one which does not. Thus by that, one can argue they fit the same, merely hitting different facets which are counter to each other.

My objection to the looser relationship comes from moving beyond the borders of our current discussion and pointing out that we have almost never used TRF for allies of convenience as implied by saying "allies we choose at the moment". We have used it on ourselves, Zhengui(our son/brother), the Horror used it on us(a construct made by us), and Xiulan(who is one of our best friends, like Meizhen). Coupling that restricted use in the story to the fact that what insights we gain are filtered through the lenses of Ling Qi's character and domain, what lesson options we receive should not be loose but variants on protecting those we are bound tightly which is extremely in line with how Ling Qi's domain currently expresses itself.

E: I was slightly off, we used it on our colleague Gan and his subordinates once to help him no sell Ji Rong.
 
Last edited:
BungieONI said:
My objection to the looser relationship comes from moving beyond the borders of our current discussion and pointing out that we have never used TRF for allies of convenience as implied by saying "allies we choose at the moment"
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
poor Ji Rong

that time he got no sold by Guangli was one of the most humiliating moments in his life, but for Ling Qi it's only causing her to draw a blank questioning look
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top