Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
I have no idea how that Insight is supposed to calcify ingroup/outgroup when it provides both a clear-cut test AND mandates that she pays attention to the test. If you say "well, she could ignore the test!", then no, that's not true. If you say "well, she could evaluate people harshly on the test!", then that's a universal problem. If you assume Ling Qi is going to treat people with bad faith, then nothing is safe! That's why treating people in bad faith is a problem.

Plus, this is a quest. Putting this in an Insight means that it's more likely that is something on the borderline gets a vote, because the voters have classified it as something important to the character. I'd say "if potential misuse of the Insight bothers you, then get ready to type up big paragraphs on the matter whenever it comes up for a vote," but apparently you're already on that task. Good job!
 
I'm actually pretty consistent about writing up big paragraphs far too late due to quirks of work schedules and some health issues.

Which is pretty funny, at least.

I think this is great as an example of the core of my profound disagreement with you: Why in the hell would the Insight in question mean that Ling Qi doesn't make friends with Gu Xiulan?

Her whole rest of her way is about the ability to change people via proper communication, why would you think that one or two examples of 'bad neighbor' behavior would result in refusing to be friends rather than result in trying to guide the person in question to being a better neighbor? Like, she's not obligated to do so, but it's sure more in line with her Way as a whole than suddenly cutting someone off is, assuming she has any reason to believe changing them is possible.

Betrayal is a whole different thing, but absolutely nothing about the neighbor insight at all disincentivizes trying to make bad neighbors into good ones, or even strangers into good neighbors. Quite the opposite, if anything.
Because we have precedents born from structural forces which the insight exacerbates.

Engagement with both Luo Zhong and Jin Tae was fumbled pretty badly. The reasons weren't exactly the same, but in both cases a large factor was the lack of capacity for even mild antagonism within the narrative from characters held conspicuously at arm's length. Basically, it was impossible to do anything with/to counter a black box, which meant they and their problems had to magically disappear for the broader narrative to progress.

It was a writing structure/pacing/framing/style issue more than an interpersonal character-driven one. Heck, things shook out contrary to explicit player votes and character intentions.

The insight basically obligates the structural dynamic which did not work, that of purposeful distance, and throws in some actual character motivation on top this time around, just to seal the deal.

It formalizes some of the most lackluster performance as a burgeoning diplomat Ling Qi's ever had.
 
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I'm not understanding all this catastrophic take on the neighbour insight.

Ling Qi has been struggling to reach a humane understanding of the idea of Other, which is inherent for the concept of Community.
Her approach now seems to be about establishing different tiers of relationship.

There is her family and closest friends. There are her allies and close associates. There are those under her rule or supervision. There are her enemies.
And in between all that there are the neigbours. People not under your purview, so they don't have to follow your rules. They also aren't necessarily working together with you toward a common goal. But you can't treat them as enemies either just because they aren't part of your group.

So Ling Qi starts with a tentatively amicable approach, and changes the way she deals with them according to their behaviour.
The notion of good neighbour has to be seen through the appropiate cultural lens. Different power dinamics will lead to different expectations of what constitutes a good neighbour.
For example, it's expected for neighboring barons and viscounts to keep tabs on each other. So a bit of "espionage" won't cause a total fallout between them, as long as it doesn't go beyond what's acceptable.

What I'm struggling to understand is this weird idea that, as soon as a neighbour doesn't perfectly adhere to LQ's "code of neighbourly conduct", she will cut all relations with them, burn all bridges and irrevocably designate them as Other. All because she was "challanged".
It's just so extreme and bizarre of an interpratation of an Insight about reciprocal coexistence with groups beyond your own.
 
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It formalizes some of the most lackluster performance as a burgeoning diplomat Ling Qi's ever had.

This is my whole problem with your argument: It doesn't do that at all. Nowhere in the insight is the idea of cutting people off for being 'bad neighbors' even mentioned or implied, so doing so is not remotely obligatory. That's a weird and extreme take and I don't understand why you feel that way.
 
Reading comprehension, mainly.

Okay, so, where exactly in the insight does it necessitate cutting people off for violating your standards of 'good neighbor'? The Insight clearly disapproves of being a bad neighbor, for both Ling Qi and others, but quite a few of Ling Qi's other insights are pretty invested in changing people you disapprove of via communication rather than cutting them off and refusing to engage.

What about this Insight contradicts that? Please explain, using the actual text of the insight. Because my reading comprehension is usually pretty good, and I remain deeply confused where you think it says that.
 
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Okay, so, where exactly in the insight does it necessitate cutting people off for violating your standards of 'good neighbor'? The Insight clearly disapproves of being a bad neighbor, for both Ling Qi and others, but quite a few of Ling Qi's other insights is pretty invested in changing people you disapprove of via communication rather than cutting them off and refusing to engage.

What about this Insight contradicts that? Please explain, using the actual text of the insight. Because my reading comprehension is usually pretty good, and I remain deeply confused where you think it says that.
I think the primary disconnect is how we're interpreting the relationship between the halves of the insight.
A good neighbor listens without spying, speaks without demanding, takes without dominating, gives without submitting. Respect is the foundation of community. (Community, Communication, Home
I think they're related, and that the first sentence consists of illustrative examples of respectful conduct. Probably not an exhaustive one, but each example is now a definite standard of Ling Qi's, thanks to being, well, defined.

This is why I don't think the "good" is the escape clause you think it is. The conduct is equivalent to respect, which is the precondition for community. Without the conduct, there is no respect, and community (or at least community with Ling Qi) is axiomatically unachievable. A breach of the conduct is reasonably viewed as disrespect and a rejection of community.

This is backed up by Diao Linqin's external assessment that Ling Qi has the means to cut off/otherize/un-community people hard enough to kill them and all that fun stuff. I'm not saying Ling Qi's obligated to murderhobo anyone who disrespects her, but I do believe these are buttons which will create genuine uphill battles for connection if pressed. It's just a necessity of how the insight is constructed.

I also largely agree with @Doramas's position that the insight introduces/reinforces a sort of tiered hierarchy of relationships, which is fine. But I disagree on the conclusion; meeting the insight's definition of "respect" should be understood as the baseline requirement for the ground floor of that tower. Which is just general eligibility for community. Being outside that category isn't automatically the same as "enemy", but it's a pretty precarious place to be with the way Ling Qi's broader philosophy is constructed, and the ways that's reinforced by this insight.

Again, not a death sentence, but a steep difficulty modifier. To one of the activities that most defines the character. Which is a bummer.
 
I think they're related, and that the first sentence consists of illustrative examples of respectful conduct. Probably not an exhaustive one, but each example is now a definite standard of Ling Qi's, thanks to being, well, defined.

This is why I don't think the "good" is the escape clause you think it is. The conduct is equivalent to respect, which is the precondition for community. Without the conduct, there is no respect, and community (or at least community with Ling Qi) is axiomatically unachievable. A breach of the conduct is reasonably viewed as disrespect and a rejection of community.

I'm not sure I buy this logic (all of the 'good neighbor' behaviors are examples of respect, certainly, hence the reference, but they're not the only way to be respectful and the Insight doesn't say they are), but even if I did, why does them being outside the community cut off all communication? Seeking communication in order to bring people into a community is hardly a new thing for Ling Qi or something unusual or disallowed by her other Insights.

Like, let's say you're correct and behaving as a 'bad neighbor' means you aren't part of the community. Why would that lead to a lack of communication or Ling Qi not trying to get them to be respectful and join the community? As a blanket thing?

She's obviously not gonna try that with every possible person who behaves unpleasantly, but she never was, and I don't see how this makes it less likely.
 
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Adhoc vote count started by Killer_Whale on Mar 22, 2025 at 6:50 PM, finished with 113 posts and 46 votes.
 
I'm not sure I buy this logic (all of the 'good neighbor' behaviors are examples of respect, certainly, hence the reference, but they're not the only way to be respectful and the Insight doesn't say they are), but even if I did, why does them being outside the community cut off all communication? Seeking communication in order to bring people into a community is hardly a new thing for Ling Qi or something unusual or disallowed by her other Insights.

Like, let's say you're correct and behaving as a 'bad neighbor' means you aren't part of the community. Why would that lead to a lack of communication or Ling Qi not trying to get them to be respectful and join the community?
Ling Qi has a history of going "Eh, fuck that guy" if somebody is even vaguely irritating and not already a half-step inside one of her social circles. And just straight up ignoring or avoiding them as much as possible. Wen Cao and Meng De are a couple of other examples I can throw on top my earlier pile of Jin Tae and Luo Zhong.

An insight which leads her to taking an outright critical/judgmental view of their behaviour, framing it as in conflict with "the foundation of community", can only exacerbate that trend.
 
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Mmm, we don't yet have any insights regarding actually doing diplomacy, or the means of trying to make a better world. It's still just kind of floating around implicitly in our motivations and conflict-aversion.
 
Ling Qi has a history of going "Eh, fuck that guy" if somebody is even vaguely irritating and not already a half-step inside one of her social circles. And just straight up ignoring or avoiding them as much as possible. Wen Cao and Meng De are a couple of other examples I can throw on top my earlier pile of Jin Tae and Luo Zhong.

An insight which leads her to taking an outright critical/judgmental view of their behaviour, framing it as in conflict with "the foundation of community", can only exacerbate that trend.

So your logic is 'because Ling Qi has not perfectly worked with people who are assholes before, any Insight that disinclines working with assholes in even small ways is an existential problem'? Because that strikes me as really reaching to make the Insight the problem there.

Like, inasmuch as this is a problem, it is not one that has anything to do with the Insight except in the most tangential way. Ling Qi dismissing people for being unpleasant is a perfectly normal trait in, er, people in general to be honest, and long predates the Insight, nor do I see anything resembling evidence that the Insight has made it worse.

Mmm, we don't yet have any insights regarding actually doing diplomacy, or the means of trying to make a better world. It's still just kind of floating around implicitly in our motivations and conflict-aversion.

This seems like a much more reasonable diagnosis of what the actual problem is here. An Insight actually focused on Doing Diplomacy and what sort of conditions it should be done under is much more of a solution to a problem of 'unwilling to try diplomacy with certain people' than complaining about a very tangentially related Insight is.
 
Ling Qi has a history of going "Eh, fuck that guy" if somebody is even vaguely irritating and not already a half-step inside one of her social circles. And just straight up ignoring or avoiding them as much as possible. Wen Cao and Meng De are a couple of other examples I can throw on top my earlier pile of Jin Tae and Luo Zhong.

An insight which leads her to taking an outright critical/judgmental view of their behaviour, framing it as in conflict with "the foundation of community", can only exacerbate that trend.

When you put it like that, I get where you're coming from, and I agree that is a problem. It sounds like like what we need is a firm insight on how to deal with "those who are other but are not enemies". Like Erebeal said,

Mmm, we don't yet have any insights regarding actually doing diplomacy, or the means of trying to make a better world. It's still just kind of floating around implicitly in our motivations and conflict-aversion.

Which is definitely a problem that we need to address. We still have slots to fill, thankfully. And given our experiences with the summit and the upcoming war (in the case of possible butting of heads with "others who are temporary allies"), I think we might be getting something along those lines soon?

Honestly, there's a chance (though a very slim one) that we could get it from Thief of Names, of all places. We now have a weapon in Weight of Want in which we target and twist the "other's" desires explicitly. We also just saw LQ refuse to use it on a complete stranger, someone who is by definition "other", for the sake of practice. She drew a line here, and she will likely have to draw even more lines on how it should be used in the future.

This is all to say, that I think we'll end up getting some insight to deal with the "hierarchy of other" sometime in the future.
 
Oh come on. An insight which is explicitly and solely about the conditions under which admittance to community can happen is not "tangentially related" to either diplomacy broadly or forming prospective ties with new people specifically.

The ramifications are absolutely direct.

And yes working with assholes is an existential issue. That's our job and the path to our goals, whatever they might be when we eventually figure them out, is going to be littered with them.
Edit: but more importantly, it's a matter of story health. We can't just keep stumbling past assholes half-accidentally without real consequences. It's bad storytelling.
 
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Oh come on. An insight which is explicitly and solely about the conditions under which admittance to community can happen is not "tangentially related" to either diplomacy broadly or forming prospective ties with new people specifically.

The ramifications are absolutely direct.

No, it really is only tangentially related. 'Willing to work with someone' and 'willing to admit them into our community' are completely different things and having higher standards for the latter than the former is not only reasonable but fundamentally necessary if you're to actually have functioning communities. You need to be able to kick out bad actors from your communities.

And yes working with assholes is an existential issue. That's our job and the path to our goals, whatever they might be when we eventually figure them out, is going to be littered with them.

I didn't say it wasn't. Indeed, I said that was a much more reasonable issue to have and agreed that an actual Insight about it would be really useful.

My disagreement is that the 'good neighbors' Insight has much of anything at all to do with that.
 
No, it really is only tangentially related. 'Willing to work with someone' and 'willing to admit them into our community' are completely different things and having higher standards for the latter than the former is not only reasonable but fundamentally necessary if you're to actually have functioning communities. You need to be able to kick out bad actors from your communities.



I didn't say it wasn't. Indeed, I said that was a much more reasonable issue to have and agreed that an actual Insight about it would be really useful.
This is a misunderstanding of what the baseline of "community" means to Ling Qi, philosophically. And what this insight is actually saying. It doesn't talk about Ling Qi's personal community. It discusses community. People trespassing this insight are, in Ling Qi's view, showing themselves inadequate for community. Community is the only cure for Isolation. The Isolated are prey to the world, doomed to a cold demise. Yadda yadda.

This insight drives deeper judgement of people's characters which will make it very difficult for Ling Qi to deal with them in good faith if they fail to measure up. There's also some weird interactions with Ling Qi's resolutions to extend trust/faith to social risks, with the insight kind of straight up walking it back to a degree.

The whole thing's just a huge mess. And, again, the insight gives us basically zero perks.
 
This is a misunderstanding of what the baseline of "community" means to Ling Qi, philosophically. And what this insight is actually saying. It doesn't talk about Ling Qi's personal community. It discusses community. People trespassing this insight are, in Ling Qi's view, showing themselves inadequate for community. Community is the only cure for Isolation. The Isolated are prey to the world, doomed to a cold demise. Yadda yadda.

This insight drives deeper judgement of people's characters which will make it very difficult for Ling Qi to deal with them in good faith if they fail to measure up. There's also some weird interactions with Ling Qi's resolutions to extend trust/faith to social risks, with the insight kind of straight up walking it back to a degree.

The whole thing's just a huge mess. And, again, the insight gives us basically zero perks.

I strongly disagree with this interpretation of that Insight. I do not think it says that 'bad neighbor' behaviors somehow make someone unworthy of the whole of Community as a concept without any hint of nuance. That's a real reach conceptually.

Specifically, it's a reach because it talks about how respect is necessary for a community and how you can't form a community without it, and that's correct, but it says nothing about someone who doesn't respect one person or group being incapable of respect or forming communities with others that they do respect, which would be necessary for this interpretation (ie: people who do 'bad neighbor' stuff are unworthy of community) to be controlling. It says you can't form communities without respect, not that anyone who has ever been disrespectful cannot form communities even with people they behave respectfully towards. That's a wild overreach of interpretation there.

I also disagree that it gives zero perks, it's an important tool for calling out bad behavior on both Ling Qi's own part and that of others, and that's super necessary for any Way that intends to create a person capable of moral judgments rather than an amoral monster.
 
In this post, I will discuss Propositional Logic.
This will start off somewhat abstract, and will be very boring.
I do have a point to wish to make at the end of it, so to anyone bothers to read it, you have my thanks.

Let us Implication.
"A implies B"
To understand this, look at it as a if statement.
If A is true, than B must be true.
For example, If it is raining, then it must be cloudy.
Or, "It is rainy implies it is cloudy"

By itself, this is fairly boring. The interesting part is what other statements we can deduce from this

Here is an example of a correct deduction
1"A implies B"
therefore
2"not B implies not A"
I will not be providing a formal proof of this, however, the intuitive explenation for this is this:
Statement 1 says that B must be true if A is true. In that case, if we observer B to be false, then A must not have been true.
"It is rainy implies it is cloudy"
therefore
"it is not cloudy implies it is not rainy"
Simple, and as boring as I have warned.

Here is an incorrect decuction. The deduction below does not follow the rules of propositional logic
1"A implies B"
therefore
2"not A implies not B"
Intuitively, this might make sense, after all, we are only inverting both our objects.
However, this is completely wrong. Statement one only tells us what happens if A is true, it does not tell us anything about the world when A is false. This deduction does not follow the rules of propositional logic. This is simply not true.
"It is rainy implies it is cloudy"
therefore
"It is not rainy implies it is not cloudy"
As mentioned, this deduction is false

Lets look at another statement.
A = You are a good neighbour
B = You deserve respect (or deserve not to be spied on, dominated, etc.)
If we have the axiom "You are a good neighbout implies that You deserve respect"
then it follows that "You do not deserve respect implies that you are not good neighbour"
this is the only thing that we can deduce from this statement.
If you tried to deduce something like "You are not a good neighbour, then you do not deserve respect", then that would be wrong, due to the same explenation I already gave.

And so, finally, about the neighbour insight.
A good neighbor listens without spying, speaks without demanding, takes without dominating, gives without submitting. Respect is the foundation of community. (Community, Communication, Home
From these statements, if we find someone who does not deserver respect* (ie. does not "listens without spying", etc,etc) then we can mark them as a bad neighbour.
However, this insight says nothing about how a bad neighour should be treated.

*It is very important to note that how we deduce who does not deserve respect is also outside of the scope of this insight. If someone does not "speaks without demanding" then you could say they're a bad neighbour, but deciding what is and isn't demanding is not a trivial decision, the fact that we have rulers who have a right to 'demand' things of their vassals muddies that even further.

Lastly, I want to say that this does not fully refute what AbeoLogos has been saying.
"You are a good neighbout implies that you deserve to not be spied on"
therefore
"You deserve to be spied on implies that you are not a good neighbour"
By the axioms of this insight, anyone we spy on, dominate, demand from, etc. must be a bad neighbour.
If we plan to do any of the things above, then we must be ready to call others bad neighbours.
This is not a problem yet, because we simply have nothing to dictate how a bad neighour is treated.
Marking someone as a bad neighbour means we don't need to "listens without spying", but it doesn't stop us from doing so.
Our options are more open for bad neighbours than for good ones.

The greatest weakness of this insight is if we define someone as a good neighbour, and they do something we hate, then we cannot spy, dominate, or demand anything from them, because they are still a good neighbour.
However, ironically enough, marking someone as a good neighbour is also not defined within this art.
Back to propositional logic.
1"A implies B"
It does not follow that
2"B implies A"
The example above does not follow the rules of propositional logic. Therefore, we cannot deduce statement 2 from statement 1.

The real example of the above is
"You are a good neighbour implies that you listen without spying"
From this, we cannot deduce, that
"If you listen without spying, then you are a good neighbour".
This is not a real deduction, nor can we deduce anything that would imply that you are a good neighbour.

So, what AbeoLogos implied here true
This is what I mean when I raise concerns that the insight either gets ignored or it gets in the way in ways we can't do much of anything with.
Abeo said that this insight could get "ignored", and they're half right. It will not be ignored, but it will have no practical effects, because this insight by itself does nothing!

This insight tells us what a good neighbour should do, but tells us nothing about who we must mark as a good neighbour.
On the other hand, this insight tells us how we can mark someone as a bad neighbout, but tells us nothing on how to treat a bad neighbour.

As for other insights, I see nothing that addresses these shortcomings. There no insight that tells us "if they act like this, then they must be a good neighbout", nor do I see anything stating that "if they are a bad neighbour, then we must treat them this way"
 
P.S. if we do get an insight that resolves those two 'shortcomings' then we will be well on our way to becoming some sort of inflexible monster like we see in sovereigns.
This is not something that should be done this early in our cultivation.
 
I'm sympathetic to this line of argumentation because it's an excellent demonstration of how the insight is basically just a mess, but I should point out it's flawed in two respects.

One, the two clauses of the insight aren't paired by coincidence, but by deliberate and artistic intent, so their relationship can't really be analysed by pure logic because that's effectively excluding context.

Edit: was at work and rushed when I wrote that (still am). What I should have said is that strictly speaking on a textual level, I don't think either clause of the insight implies the other. Rather, it's the context of the Claude's proximity and that it's an insight that implies that they're related.
So something like C implies A implies B and C implies B implies A. /Edit

Two, Diao Linqin's statements from the previous update strongly imply some of these conclusions are incorrect.

Also, I meant ignored in the Doylist sense. It's happened with weird awkward insights before. See Ling Qi constantly lying despite her truth/sincerity insight.

By the axioms of this insight, anyone we spy on, dominate, demand from, etc. must be a bad neighbour.
This conclusion in particular is really funny when mapped onto an upcoming event, though.

The ith we're slated to talk to are a coerced protectorate who were, and are, quite literally dominated. As part of facilitating communication between them and the Emerald Seas ministries, we're almost certain to transmit demands.

By the logic above, the instant Ling Qi takes part in the domination of and demands on the ith by being the voice of the imperial force which put them under boot, she must categorize the ith as bad neighbours.

Which is funny.
 
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