NaanContributor
Provider of delicious flatbread, and nothing else.
- Location
- Hawaii
Then what tags do you want for it, and by what means do you want to mindbreak a cultivator in their Way, if not with something at least related to those concepts?
Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)
- Thread starter yrsillar
- Start date
- Original Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Kek, looks like the Gu really dodged a bullet (mixed together from two questions):
Abeo said:
Yrsillar said:
Karthak said:
Yrsillar said:
Abeo said:
Yrsillar said:
- Location
- Chicago
- Pronouns
- She/They
I'm kind of curious how you expect stealing from other people's heads to avoid dealing with the ways they lie to themselves. It seems like sincerity is required, at least.
I think the question of means isn't where our main focus should be. What and how need to be answered, but in the context of what a mindbreak technique is, Ling Qi's attention is going to be much more on the questions of who, when, and why. The consequences are just way more substantive to the narrative of the technique than its methods, as it relates to Ling Qi's concept, imo.
The reason I'm iffy on pulling in Truth/Clarity/Sincerity for the mindbreak technique is that it feels like inserting conundrum on the less important side the of the equation. Sort of putting our not-best foot forward, for the sake of it. And to me it looks like busywork. Padding the technique with the potential for controversy (the truth-nexus stuff is still wiffle-waffley) when it already inherently has huge potential for controversy, elsewhere. It's an attention allocation thing.
But anyway, if you want to know what concepts I'd be positively disposed to, probably one (or more) of the ones Thief of Names actually has as a keyword:
Mystery III (4/5): Hunger is privation of the body, loneliness privation of the heart, Ignorance privation of the mind. In privation, seek answers.
Choice IV (0/8): Choice blossoms in plenty, in solidarity, in empathy. To accept Choice is to accept uncertainty, fear, the end of your reach
Expression IV (7/8): The truth of art is communication. To have one's Way taken up shows the greatest mastery of self.
Mystery stands out as a particularly solid candidate, to me. Seeking the ignorance of the target, the un-knowing of their own self, the shrouded corners they haven't sought answers, etc. That's the ammunition anyway, Expression seems solid for actually inflicting the understanding Ling Qi's gained on the target. Way past my bedtime, so about 3 other thoughts have fallen out of my head.
Basically, I don't think the process of inquiry and revelation/challenge has any particular need for Clarity/Sincerity. That's just bogging down the conceptual space with things that can be relevant but don't actually need to be there, when there's more central ideas to confront when we're actually using the technique (like, why is it okay for me to be punching this particular dude in the brain right now?).
Edit: oh, duh. Choice is involved because of the nature of waybreaking. The injury is, in the end, self-inflicted by the target. That doesn't mean the user of the technique isn't culpable, of course they are, but ultimately they're posing a contradiction and leaving the target to process it. In that, there's Choice. (Not great choice, mind, but it's there. Always a slim chance somebody'll get a tribulation power-up instead of developing soul tumors.)
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I think you're ignoring a problem in the hopes that it doesn't come to bite us in the ass later. Since we have the objective to reach the highest level on our cultivation ALL of it, all of our arts, concepts and understanding has to be harmonious. Thief of names has to work with our whole understanding and philosophy because if not, there's an error in our way and we won't be able to progress. That's why it's so important to try and adapt it now with what we are learning otherwise once it's too set in stone we won't be able to change it anymore and our Way will be flawed.
The nightmare below in the roots, and the nightmare above in the spider king are extensions of each other. Because when the Spider King tore holes to release the deep nightmares, nightmares in the roots, the simplicity of their truths made them the perfect weapon. There is a truth in fear.
Crown and Roots form a duality. The reality that it wasn't *Truth Alone* that won the battle at the end, because the Truth of Nightmares was just as potent in the final battle. So our two Mentor quests are thematically connected. Not all truths are radiant, it was *sincerity* in-hand with the truth that *convinced* the Sublime Tree to let them win..
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- Location
- CA
(I'm just gonna call any such mindbreak technique the Objection for this post, because I'm an Ace Attorney fan and it's punchy.)
Mystery would be involved in the investigation, but once you get to the point where you're trying to Objection the enemy into oblivion, Mystery is directly detrimental. Any remaining "ignorance" or "shrouded corners" are avenues of retreat that might keep the blow from fully landing. You're trying to spin every part of them into a story of their failure and their inevitable defeat, and Mystery undermines that narrative. You were in privation, you sought answers, now you have them, and you don't want your enemy to be able to doubt that.
Similarly, if Ling Qi's Choice is about uncertainty, restriction, and allowances for others, then she's withdrawn that consideration for anyone she's hitting with the Objection. They've made choices, but they're outside the social contract, so they're no longer allowed Choice. Expression's going to be present, of course, but only as a means. What's being presented? That has to be present in the tags.
Any such technique is almost certainly going to be tagged Truth, even as she goes deeper into Sincerity and Clarity. As Huisheng said in just this last update, the Radiant Truth is an absolute that Ling Qi fears. That image of "an eternal scouring moment" is an extremely vivid image to turn into a blade, the same way she's done with Isolation. It's not something she wants for herself, but it's a good weapon.
Agree with most of the post, but the Truth part was already refuted in a previous post I believe.
To paraphrase what I remember was said:
In one of the Moon's Vows side chapters, Jiao and Xin killed Towering Pride by showing him his mediocrity. However, they hid certain parts of the truth to make sure that attack was a killing blow. That lie of omission is basically proof that Truth isn't needed for this kind of
Sincerity and Clarity certainly fit though.
There's an easy argument that for any kind or Expression based art, ensuring that people listen (Sincerity) and understand (Clarity) would improve it.
However, this argument feels... too easy(?)
By this logic, every single art with Expression, would also have Sincerity and/or Clarity.
And this would make Expression feel obsolete.
Yeah, I don't see this being Ling Qi's weapon, but I do wonder if they'll be an opportunity for a combo attack. Like, Ling Qi pilfers some way-breaking secrets, and Cai Ren fires off the Truth Beam that can't be defended against.
In a different line of thiught, I realised that Thief of Names doesn't have the a Want keyword, which, if we'll turn it into a potentially offensive art, that last part sounds especially relevant. (Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm guessing that was due to us choosing Thief of Names rather than Thief of Hearts??)
Similar to AbeoLogos, I'm most curious of the what and why of the technique. We only ever saw way-breaking in active combat before (against Towering Pride and Still Waters Deepning), but could it be used before then, like a preventative measure. Something that's more than talking, but less than active combat.
For example, if we know some guy is gonna do a crime, could we do some mind fuckery to make them reconsider. (I'm not sure if something like this would be illegal against mortals in the empire, but certainly would be against nobles).
Maybe someone could give a better example. I'm just hyped to see how the roots arc will turn out.
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I largely agree with this. And putting my own spin on it, fiddling with Clarity/Sincerity feels like adding more moving parts when they're not really necessary. It's... cluttery. It doesn't help that Clarity is easily our concept with the most obscure meaning and Sincerity wraps itself around to saying almost nothing. Generally, we want cool things Ling Qi does to be narratively punchy and arise from unambiguous lines of thought/philosophical origins.
Expression IV (7/8): The truth of art is communication. To have one's Way taken up shows the greatest mastery of self.
-It is the artist's duty to question. The trickster's role to make fools of the mighty. Hold the mirror to history and tradition, and reveal their absurdities.
This concept and this Insight are more than enough for the job.
Moaning about how she feels about stabbing someone with Sincerity, or whatever, before she comes around to being able to perform the technique doesn't actually help us. We're already at the finish line if we want to be. It's a waste of our time. This is not a real philosophical vulnerability, and permanently flavoring a technique a certain way in order to avert a non-problem is just limiting space to maneuver for long-term cohesion. I'm tired of having to rip Truth-based stuff out by the roots because it was planted recklessly.
Anyway, interesting thing about Thief of Names is that there's this in the projects section:
Which I'm pretty sure is a leftover from early days, but Want was there at some point.
Edit: Like, I keep seeing this refrain that a way-breaking technique has to use Truth in some capacity. And no, that's not how cultivation works. It is in no way a necessity. There's a hundred ways of doing anything.
And this problem goes back all the way to when we first slotted our Truth insight, because people were convinced that since self-knowledge is necessary for cultivation, Truth would be a huge boon, or even requirement, for cultivation. It wasn't. That is not how cultivation works.
There is a distinction between the truth and the Truth that is not being respected. Every Insight or Concept a cultivator internalizes will be true for them; that does not imply any relation to the metaphysical, conceptual construct of Truth. Ling Qi is tall, she is not Tall. Things can be things without being Things. Most things are like that most of the time, even.
I get the temptation to connect every dot you can, as soon as you see it. But that's not actually productive. And here, it wouldn't even really be in line with our journey of backing off from being so preoccupied with Truth.
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ReignTorrential
Save Your Crown for a Rainy Day
My reading is that for LQ, Expression and Sincerity are indeed rather incontrovertibly connected (not sure about Clarity). This would not, if fact, make Expression "obsolete". It sort of makes Sincerity superfluous, in the sense that I wouldn't be at all surprised if it got subsumed into Expression at some point. That's healthy and normal as far as I can tell.
I definitely feel like the understandable frustration with the Truth stuff has blinded some people to, ironically, the truth. It's easy to ignore the utility of concepts like Sincerity in the wake of that.
Winged One
Not the Simurgh
- Location
- definitely the ground
- Pronouns
- They/Them/It
Oh, sure. Though I don't really trust speculation from a guy who disdains the concept of truth as anything more than fear of Shenhua.
Highgarden 1
It was strange and a little scary, to be a King.
The echoing emptiness where he reached out, finding no lord above him, no great storm pressing down, no courts and enclaves of power rebuffing his still young roots. There were the sleeping mountains, whose titanic stony hides and shells stretched into the sky. But there were not kings. None of them ruled any but itself, in splendid solitude. Even the little lives which clung to their backs did not feel their authority. They thought and dreamed much too slow for minds of flesh and blood to acknowledge.
Even ancient wood and deep root did not live in the slow deep time of the mountains and the molten veins of [Firmament]
[Growth] and [Renewal]; Gui and Zhen, only knew that here was an empty throne, and here, Sister had made her home. The Great Patriarch of the South was far away. The grumbling souls of Star and Stone were far away, the endless scream of the east, and the pounding heart drums of the west were far away.
The rumbling groan that shook the world, and made his heads ache so badly if he listened so far remained, but here, with his roots sunk deep into soil, even this seemed quieter. Muffled by the song of land which had begun to awaken to him.
It was not empty. There was the Grump in the south, the shifting ice and contemptuous rime. There was ice and rain, grumbling groves and giggling fairies, proud horned horses cantering upon the storm clouds and lightning struck peaks but they were not…Organized?
Gui was not good at such thoughts. Zhen turned them over instead, with a haughty hiss.
Not courts, never courts, too far from priests and writs and rites. They had no departments, no ministers, no clerks. Wild, untamed, messy. Oh Yes, Zhen could see the shape and the seeds of them, the spirits incoherently spread about, could see the shape of his courtiers and subordinates, and how they might one day be ordered!
And Miss Snowblossom, who was very shiny, like Miss Cui's scales, if very damp and not a little cold, but her smile was very warm.
Gui thought that Zhen was getting too far off track. He too liked Miss Snowblossom. Much more than Bossy and mean Cui, and her rains felt very nice when they strode among the farms. However, dreamy Zhen was getting lost.
And foolish Gui was only slowing him down, his tangent would have been done by now. Foolish. Foolish indeed. Show respect to great and intelligent Zhen!
Gui shows respect when Zhen is being great and intelligent.
"Sir Zhengui."
Zhengui's senses pulled back into himself pulling back along roots through stream and dell and gravel and dirt. Until he was only himself, resting embedded into the gravel pit his roots had dug to let him meditate snug in the heated rock and earth atop the hills where he and scholar friends had made the pretty geyser. There was the 'Xuan Shi' the Nest Mimic, the man with handy hands. Gui did not like him. He did not like him, though he tried not to be rude for Big Sister's sake.
Zhen was more ambivalent, the dislike was tangled down in his roots, where his thinking thoughts did not go, and so Zhen, who had woven himself from many thinky thoughts, did not trust it either. Nest Mimic. Water and salt and blowing wind, the twinkling tapestry and swirling current. Foreign even to the faraway shoal which Zhen could just barely accept were kin.
But he helped Big Sister, he made a strong shell for Grandmother and the littlest, to save them even when Zhen and Gui and sister were very far away.
And Gui followed, because even if Zhen was often dumb, he was also very smart.
Gui thought that the Xuan Shi and Zhen were very similar that way.
"This one knows Sir Zhengui is not fond, gratitude to you then, young King, that you agree to speak."
"...I, Zhen should not be in thrall to sourceless feelings. Therefor, I give you a chance."
The fishy man smiled behind his collar. Gui bristled a little.
"And not at all for the joy of the sky, the roar of flames and soaring free 'pon currents of wind."
Gui glowered at him. The Fishy man was too familiar, but… "Gui is not a liar. So he will not saying lying words."
That didn't mean he had to agree.
But the Xuan Shi seemed content with that alone, for all that Zhen could taste the curdled knot of bad dreams lodged in his skull pulsing with malevolence. Did he keep it because such a voice was much less scary than the same words but carried on his own thoughts, Zhen, wondered. Perhaps the naggy nightmare drowned those out.
It would be a better excuse for keeping bad Supper around than any other Zhen had heard.
"Big Sister told us, it was probably only a dream thing. Gui is bound to the earth, rooted deep."
"Bound to land, a growing Prince, it is true," Xuan Shi agreed. "Yet, this one thinks… perhaps the land may soar, with the aid of man."
"I, Zhen, am listening."
"Thy nature is destroy, honored serpent, so that all might be renewed, it is true, and yet, the crumbling core remains. Thy flames sunder. Thy flames scorch. It is not impossible that they might burn even the bonds of natural Law upon thyself," Xuan Shi said pensively. "Yet, not unaided, this one thinks. Devices. Attunements. Filters and guidance might enhance the burn, might transfigure it to other more suited form. Does the young lord follow?"
Gui stared blankly. Those were definitely words, they sounded like scholar friend when he was deep in his books. Which…
"I, Zhen see what you may mean. The quality and nature of my flame is not toward movement, even if its nature might weaken the bonds of earth. You propose works… worn?"
Xuan Shi nodded.
"Upon Zhen, that he might channel his flames through through a nature transforming array,"
"Several likely. Propulsion, steering, starting lift, all will require differing filters. Other complications may arise. It will be a complex working, especially should the young lord wish to maintain other abilities."
"Gui and Zhen are more than one."
Zhen's hiss was shrewd. "But we are not more than two. Hm, hm. I see your goal and acknowledge it. But to soar… I, Zhen, would not mind having you upon my back again a time or two."
"Fiiiine," Gui grumbled. Even stubborn Gui would not be so muleish.
The Xuan Shi radiated contentment, for once it did not bother Gui nor Zhen, for their thoughts were up in the clear blue sky as well. It was one thing to be carried as spirit in Big Sister's dantian, or even hurled as he had been a time or two. To fly under your own power…
Zhengui wanted to feel that again.
"This one has made in some designs. If it pleases the young lord, testing versions may be ready in a few weeks time." Xuan Shi stood and bowed low, low enough that it felt as if his hat might fall.
"Make it so. I, Zhen, will be waiting."
"Gui will look forward to it as well. The Xuan Shi is welcome on hill this at any time."
There was no need for him to look so pleased.
The echoing emptiness where he reached out, finding no lord above him, no great storm pressing down, no courts and enclaves of power rebuffing his still young roots. There were the sleeping mountains, whose titanic stony hides and shells stretched into the sky. But there were not kings. None of them ruled any but itself, in splendid solitude. Even the little lives which clung to their backs did not feel their authority. They thought and dreamed much too slow for minds of flesh and blood to acknowledge.
Even ancient wood and deep root did not live in the slow deep time of the mountains and the molten veins of [Firmament]
[Growth] and [Renewal]; Gui and Zhen, only knew that here was an empty throne, and here, Sister had made her home. The Great Patriarch of the South was far away. The grumbling souls of Star and Stone were far away, the endless scream of the east, and the pounding heart drums of the west were far away.
The rumbling groan that shook the world, and made his heads ache so badly if he listened so far remained, but here, with his roots sunk deep into soil, even this seemed quieter. Muffled by the song of land which had begun to awaken to him.
It was not empty. There was the Grump in the south, the shifting ice and contemptuous rime. There was ice and rain, grumbling groves and giggling fairies, proud horned horses cantering upon the storm clouds and lightning struck peaks but they were not…Organized?
Gui was not good at such thoughts. Zhen turned them over instead, with a haughty hiss.
Not courts, never courts, too far from priests and writs and rites. They had no departments, no ministers, no clerks. Wild, untamed, messy. Oh Yes, Zhen could see the shape and the seeds of them, the spirits incoherently spread about, could see the shape of his courtiers and subordinates, and how they might one day be ordered!
And Miss Snowblossom, who was very shiny, like Miss Cui's scales, if very damp and not a little cold, but her smile was very warm.
Gui thought that Zhen was getting too far off track. He too liked Miss Snowblossom. Much more than Bossy and mean Cui, and her rains felt very nice when they strode among the farms. However, dreamy Zhen was getting lost.
And foolish Gui was only slowing him down, his tangent would have been done by now. Foolish. Foolish indeed. Show respect to great and intelligent Zhen!
Gui shows respect when Zhen is being great and intelligent.
"Sir Zhengui."
Zhengui's senses pulled back into himself pulling back along roots through stream and dell and gravel and dirt. Until he was only himself, resting embedded into the gravel pit his roots had dug to let him meditate snug in the heated rock and earth atop the hills where he and scholar friends had made the pretty geyser. There was the 'Xuan Shi' the Nest Mimic, the man with handy hands. Gui did not like him. He did not like him, though he tried not to be rude for Big Sister's sake.
Zhen was more ambivalent, the dislike was tangled down in his roots, where his thinking thoughts did not go, and so Zhen, who had woven himself from many thinky thoughts, did not trust it either. Nest Mimic. Water and salt and blowing wind, the twinkling tapestry and swirling current. Foreign even to the faraway shoal which Zhen could just barely accept were kin.
But he helped Big Sister, he made a strong shell for Grandmother and the littlest, to save them even when Zhen and Gui and sister were very far away.
And Gui followed, because even if Zhen was often dumb, he was also very smart.
Gui thought that the Xuan Shi and Zhen were very similar that way.
"This one knows Sir Zhengui is not fond, gratitude to you then, young King, that you agree to speak."
"...I, Zhen should not be in thrall to sourceless feelings. Therefor, I give you a chance."
The fishy man smiled behind his collar. Gui bristled a little.
"And not at all for the joy of the sky, the roar of flames and soaring free 'pon currents of wind."
Gui glowered at him. The Fishy man was too familiar, but… "Gui is not a liar. So he will not saying lying words."
That didn't mean he had to agree.
But the Xuan Shi seemed content with that alone, for all that Zhen could taste the curdled knot of bad dreams lodged in his skull pulsing with malevolence. Did he keep it because such a voice was much less scary than the same words but carried on his own thoughts, Zhen, wondered. Perhaps the naggy nightmare drowned those out.
It would be a better excuse for keeping bad Supper around than any other Zhen had heard.
"Big Sister told us, it was probably only a dream thing. Gui is bound to the earth, rooted deep."
"Bound to land, a growing Prince, it is true," Xuan Shi agreed. "Yet, this one thinks… perhaps the land may soar, with the aid of man."
"I, Zhen, am listening."
"Thy nature is destroy, honored serpent, so that all might be renewed, it is true, and yet, the crumbling core remains. Thy flames sunder. Thy flames scorch. It is not impossible that they might burn even the bonds of natural Law upon thyself," Xuan Shi said pensively. "Yet, not unaided, this one thinks. Devices. Attunements. Filters and guidance might enhance the burn, might transfigure it to other more suited form. Does the young lord follow?"
Gui stared blankly. Those were definitely words, they sounded like scholar friend when he was deep in his books. Which…
"I, Zhen see what you may mean. The quality and nature of my flame is not toward movement, even if its nature might weaken the bonds of earth. You propose works… worn?"
Xuan Shi nodded.
"Upon Zhen, that he might channel his flames through through a nature transforming array,"
"Several likely. Propulsion, steering, starting lift, all will require differing filters. Other complications may arise. It will be a complex working, especially should the young lord wish to maintain other abilities."
"Gui and Zhen are more than one."
Zhen's hiss was shrewd. "But we are not more than two. Hm, hm. I see your goal and acknowledge it. But to soar… I, Zhen, would not mind having you upon my back again a time or two."
"Fiiiine," Gui grumbled. Even stubborn Gui would not be so muleish.
The Xuan Shi radiated contentment, for once it did not bother Gui nor Zhen, for their thoughts were up in the clear blue sky as well. It was one thing to be carried as spirit in Big Sister's dantian, or even hurled as he had been a time or two. To fly under your own power…
Zhengui wanted to feel that again.
"This one has made in some designs. If it pleases the young lord, testing versions may be ready in a few weeks time." Xuan Shi stood and bowed low, low enough that it felt as if his hat might fall.
"Make it so. I, Zhen, will be waiting."
"Gui will look forward to it as well. The Xuan Shi is welcome on hill this at any time."
There was no need for him to look so pleased.
- Location
- San Ramon, CA
Rule of Courtship #43: Get in good with your intended's other family members.
- Location
- Unknown
Just to establish something, we've all come to the conclusion that Zhengui dislikes Xuan Shi and calls him Fishy Man/Nest Mimic because the boy's mysterious mom is related to some form of Spirit that practices Brood Parasitism (laying eggs in something else's nest to bum parenting off of them) on Xuan Wu and this has become such a problem that while it doesn't affect parents young Xuan Wu regardless of species have an instinctive revulsion/suspicion towards there young that no doubt worsened any problems of Isolation Xuan Shi had as a child due to Xuan families bloodline intermingling with their Sublime Ancestor.
For the record I've kind of had this theory in the back of my head since Zhengui called Xuan Shi Fishy Man and kind of lost track of whether anyone else actually stated it at some point in these threads vast history so if no one's actually pointed this out while I've been staying silent then well... oops.
For the record I've kind of had this theory in the back of my head since Zhengui called Xuan Shi Fishy Man and kind of lost track of whether anyone else actually stated it at some point in these threads vast history so if no one's actually pointed this out while I've been staying silent then well... oops.
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- Location
- Spain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
What would LQ and Xuan Shi's children be like?
Ice fish? 🤔
Ice fish? 🤔
ReignTorrential
Save Your Crown for a Rainy Day
XS's mom is a sea folk witch. That's where the "fishy man" thing comes from. I don't think she necessarily has to have any kind of parasite bloodline for XS to be thought of as a "nest mimic", though it is possible. afaict just having sea folk heritage would be enough.
Yeah, the Living Ilse had a full sublime level fight with their ancestor. That could have put instinctual hatred of them in the entire species, even if Zhengui isn't descendant directly from him. Though Zhengui's parents are from around that area.
- Location
- Space between realms
- Pronouns
- He
I got the Dragon patriarch, the Sunflower Goddess, and the...thing at the Grave's center. But what is the Star and Stone?
- Location
- Colorado
Fallen Stars have been related to the Cloud Tribe war plotline since the start of this thread, how'd you forget that?
- Location
- Space between realms
- Pronouns
- He
OMFG. HOW THE FUCK?!?! I'm the one who suggested calling the upcoming conflict the War of Star and Stone! I'm losing it.
Edit: Ok, it might've been that I read one of the Moon Phases omakes recently and started associating the Star stuff here with the Eldritch Horror elements of Elden Ring.
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