My guess is a liminal boat. A ship on the lake that can go into the waterfall and travel into the liminal, letting Qi travel farther, safer with more people. Also calls back to their first date here and their liminal adventures.
Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)
- Thread starter yrsillar
- Start date
- Original Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Winged One
Not the Simurgh
- Location
- definitely the ground
- Pronouns
- They/Them/It
They revere dragons, and treating people like things is the inevitable consequence of hierarchy.
The Lady's Homecoming and Feng's Gift
I know how the parts after here go. I knew, at least kind of, how the first two were going to go. Writing about an almost five year old girl seeing their superhero come home, incased in bandages and wheelchair bound...this won't be easy.
I do know how Feng is going to help though. Some concern up front, sadness and bitterness in the middle, and sweet kindness as the chaser for this part.
Oh and for those curious on what the idea is here goes:
Ling Friendship
Cautious Adventurer
The Lady's Homecoming and Feng's Gift
Pushing Up Burdens (Zhang Shu POV)
Zhang Feng 4
Zhang Feng 5
Laps for Longevity (Zhang Shu POV)
Zhang Feng 6
Zhang Wen, Proud Mother
Zhang Feng 7
And possibly two or three more Zhang Feng POVs depending on how certain ideas turn out pacing wise.
Don't really plan on Min Leidi POV, as a potential priestess it's likely that will happen in-story. Dong Hua and Chyou will happen if I can figure out how to express a Food Network Show mixed with Being a Servant in a Kind Cultivator Household.
Also over here or on the discord, could someone clarify the omake point rule stuff? Is that even still a thing? I know it is brought up super early in the thread, but I am unsure of any changes. Don't want to step on toes here.
I do know how Feng is going to help though. Some concern up front, sadness and bitterness in the middle, and sweet kindness as the chaser for this part.
Oh and for those curious on what the idea is here goes:
Ling Friendship
Cautious Adventurer
The Lady's Homecoming and Feng's Gift
Pushing Up Burdens (Zhang Shu POV)
Zhang Feng 4
Zhang Feng 5
Laps for Longevity (Zhang Shu POV)
Zhang Feng 6
Zhang Wen, Proud Mother
Zhang Feng 7
And possibly two or three more Zhang Feng POVs depending on how certain ideas turn out pacing wise.
Don't really plan on Min Leidi POV, as a potential priestess it's likely that will happen in-story. Dong Hua and Chyou will happen if I can figure out how to express a Food Network Show mixed with Being a Servant in a Kind Cultivator Household.
Also over here or on the discord, could someone clarify the omake point rule stuff? Is that even still a thing? I know it is brought up super early in the thread, but I am unsure of any changes. Don't want to step on toes here.
The Lady's Homecoming and Feng's Gift
Feng is concerned for her friend. Biyu decided that since people did not know how fast Magic people healed, that her sister was probably fine. Feng knew, however, that grown-ups did not move beds and drawers from the top of a house down the stairs, unless they needed to. She also knew they made the bed less tall somehow. The Lady was really tall, it would only make sense if Lady Ling needed a short bed.
"Every-one is being weird, Feng!" The Young Miss declared, starting to get excited. "Siss-y will come home today, and Mommy and you and others will see Siss-y is better!"
"I did not say if she would be better or not," Feng did not want to argue with Biyu again. After the first few days, Biyu had decided her sister had enough days being 'sick', and everyone got better in a week or less. "I was sick for months. I know the Lady is Magic, but maybe her hurt is also Magic. I do want her to be well." Feng had to add that last part, her friend had an angry face.
"Well, we are dressed fancy, and we should wait for Siss-y." Biyu seemed to go back to excitement. "You will see, and we can catch froggies and do other fun stuff." Feng did not know if Biyu was telling her, or herself these things.
"Are both you girls ready?" Nanny Min asked, after coming down the stairs. Almost everyone else was waiting in the front of the house, so Nanny had time to get into her fancier things. Mother was checking the Lady's new room one last time, and the Madam was getting people ready.
"Yes, Nanny." They both said together. No giggles this time, though. Feng thought Biyu might be more worried than she told her. "Should we join the front?" Feng wanted to be where she was supposed to be.
"Yes, since the Madam is organizing this like the arrangements at the celebration of merit. The family first, the cultivator families and the Madam's senior staff, then everyone else in groups by duties and families." Nanny had explained this during Manners lessons a few times, but Feng was still nervous she would be in the wrong place.
"Feng, you are ready to go still." Mother had come, and with Shu. "Come along, we need to be in position." Mother held her hand out for Feng's, like they were crossing a street at a market. She let Shu walk along side her without holding hands. That was unfair, not having to hold hands was for Grown-ups. Feng did not bring this to Mother's attention, there were so many Grown-ups but it was so quiet.This was not the time for pointing out Shu acting this way.
It was a partly cloudy day. The walk and garden out front looked clean, and the guards' armor gleamed in the small spots of sun. Even they looked extra ready, the ones with beards and mustaches looked neat and trimmed, and the guard captain had come wearing a fancy helmet.
The Madam approached the gate for the house, holding Biyu's hand. Nanny Min and Lei-Lei followed right behind them, and Mother signaled for Feng and Shu to follow Nanny. "Greetings, Guard Captain Rou of White Cloud Town. We are honored that our hosts hold us in such esteem." The Madam spoke louder than normal, so all the people could hear her. The shuffling behind Feng stopped, it seemed everyone had found their place.
"Honorable Madam Ling! The return of the Baroness, She who helped create a new peace and helped prevent a new war, is celebrated in White Cloud Town. We are of the last true outposts of civilization this close to the Wall. Your daughter's service to her Duchess, her Province, and her Empire resound, especially here!" Captain Rou seemed very happy to be a part of the Lady's return, but if her Lady did all that, who wouldn't be excited?
"The House of Ling is honored to be so graciously recognized in our current home." Madam Ling responded, and then turned her head. A wagon could be heard coming up the road, most likely their Lady. Then the gate was opened, to allow the first member of the wagon group to enter.
"Zhengui greets Grandmother, and Littlest Sister, and the Family." The xuanwu, the storied Spirit Beast who was the House Guardian Spirit rumbled and hissed at the same time. He looked really shiny and polished. His snake half, Zhen, came close to the Madam and Biyu, looking them over. "Zhengui is glad to see the Family in good health."
"Good turt'le, where is Siss-y? I don't see her!" Biyu asked, checking the sky. The Lady did usually fly to the House. Feng could not hear the music either.
"Littlest Sister, Big Sister is in the carriage. Hanyi is making sure she is ready." The xuanwu came fully past the gate, having become smaller. Zhen's head came right next to the Young Miss, who scratched the ridges above his eyes.
The carriage opened, and Hanyi stepped out. She brought out some sort of thingy, and set it on ground to move parts of it. When she was done, it looked like some sort of wheeled chair. "Elder Sister has returned triumphant to her House. I hope all of the necessary adjustments have been made to accommodate her arrival back to her Family?" Hanyi was always so formal.
"All of the needed changes have been made, Miss Hanyi. You can be assured we are prepared for my daughter's return." The Madam had workers from outside help put in covers for any bumps, and ramps for the stairs in and out of the garden. That and all the work moving the Lady's room to first floor.
Hanyi gestured to two girl guards, who looked ready for something. "Respected Guards of White Cloud Town, please assist me with Elder Sister." Both guards followed Hanyi into the carriage. Feng was worried, why would the Lady need help from three people? The thee of them returned, with a doll.
The doll was wrapped in cloth, almost like bandages, and all kinds of fancy writing on them. On top of the bandages were slips of paper, covered in more writing and glowing slightly. One guard held the dolls legs, another the dolls back, and Hanyi the head.
They gently placed the doll into the wheeled chair.
"My gratitude to the White Cloud Town and to the Argent Peak Sect, for the protection of my Family and House in my absence." Feng could hear the Lady! But it was strange. Her voice was neither close or far, loud or quiet, or some any direction. Where was she?
"It is only just, when our noble alumni are guarding the interests of the Empire from both foreign intrigues and domestic threats, that we ensure the safety of their loved ones and our citizens." Spoke the guard captain. "But we know that sometimes the best reward for high valor is rest and healing at your own hearth. Please, pass along our congratulations again to Heiress Cai, and we can speak more when you have had time to rest."
"Thank you, fellow warrior of the Emerald Seas, for being so understanding in this matter. I will see to it that your message is communicated to my liege." Feng still could find the Lady, maybe see was invisible somehow?
The extra guards and the carriage all left, leaving Zhengui, Hanyi, and the doll in the chair. The tall deal-girl-looking Spirit went to stand behind the chair, and fluffed a pillow for the doll. Weird. Hanyi seemed too grown-up to play with dolls. "Madam, would you like to be the one to bring Elder Sister into the house?" Hanyi then stepped to the left.
The Madam nodded and moved to where Hanyi just was, bringing Biyu with her by handhold. As the Madam put her hands on the chairs handles, they shook a little before Madam Ling gripped them hard.
Why would-oh. That wasn't a doll, was it. Feng could see eyes, blue and icy, looking at the Household. Familiar eyes.
"Welcome home, daughter." Madam Ling said in a tone the reminding her of Mother, when Feng or Shu caused an issue in the market of the old place. The promise of trouble later. The Lady was hurt, and badly. She did not think any one doctor had that many bandages.
"It is good to home, Mother, Biyu, and the hard working people for my House." Her mouth was wrapped up, so how was the Lady talking? Did she get hurt so bad she learn new Magic to talk?
"Momma, where's Siss-y? Why are you pushing this doll-thing?" It seems Biyu thought the same as Feng. The Lady was just so still...
"I am right here, Little Sister." The Lady tried to move her right hand, up slowly.
"NO! YOU'RE NOT SISS-Y! SISS-Y NEVER GETS HURT BAD! SHES TOO MAGIC AND STRONG AND..."
Biyu took off, running into the house. Nanny Min was right behind her. Feng felt real bad. Shu had also been upset, when Feng was stuck on bed, sick for weeks. He even yelled at Mother once. She just looked so tired and upset he said he was sorry by himself, without being told to.
"I am sorry, my daughter. She really does look up to you. In truth, I myself did not believe the full reality of the issue until you needed to be carried. Biyu will calm down." The Madam offered the Lady comfort. She is a good mom, no wonder her and Mother are friends. "Please let us bring my daughter and our Lady into her home to rest. I am certain days will be busy again, with the preparations for the eventual move south and my daughter's other business."
As Feng followed her Mother inside, she thought about the last time she was as upset as Biyu. She could bit play outside when she was sick, so Mother had made Feng her doll to play with. It made her feel better, and if Shu was stupid and hurt Mother could fix it. Mother had also taught her sewing, to fix her own doll.
Then, Feng had an idea. She thought about what made Biyu happy. She did not know if that would even be possible, but she could ask Mother for help. Feng would do her best.
__________________________________________
Thwipthwipthwipthwipthwipthwipthwipthwip
The sounds needle and thread, from Feng's efforts with cloth, and Mother's work on soft leather were all she could hear. Biyu had returned to Manners lessons, and would eat with Feng, but she would not play games. Biyu was also very quiet, and would only talk to Feng a little. She would fix it.
Fengs idea was harder than she thought. Structure was needed, Mother said, and when Feng asked how they could do that Mother offered to work leather, for the inside pieces. Feng did most of the two covers, and got Mother to help with the button holes and eyes. She asked Mother about where she learned to work leather and Mother said the same way she learned sheets and uniforms and costumes, and to ask again when she was a grown-up.
"Okay Feng, it's almost ready. We just got to get the stuffing between the center and the cloth, and check all the buttons to make sure the covers fix right." It was so cool, when she and Mother were done it would be nicer than almost any toy in the marketplace. Three mornings and nights working on this would be worth it. "Do the buttons in order. You need to explain to your friend, after all."
Feng started with the tail, making sure the cover was fully attached and checking the eyes and tongue. She then buttoned the tail to the place on the main piece of leather. It could move, but not too much. Then the stuffing in the pockets of the other cover's ridges, and then the eight buttons to hold that cover in place. She checked the eyes on front.
It was time to check her work. Feng walked the doll to the window, and compared. The colors were as close as she could get. "It's ready." Mother then brought out a nice box from her room, and helped her place it inside. Feng held the door open for Mother and the box.
When they arrived at Biyu's room, the Madam was waiting for them. "So, you did finish whatever this surprise is, Zhang Wen".
"It was my daughter's idea, for Biyu. I simply lent her my expertise." Mother had done a lot of the planning and work, but whatever Feng could do Mother left to her.
"Well I will see if my daughter can entertain her vistors." The Madam knocked twice on Biyu's door. "Daughter, Feng and her mother are here to see you."
A few moments past, and the door opened. "Im sowwy Feng," Biyu said, sounding tired and sad, "But Biyu is too sad to play still."
"I got you something, to cheer you up!" Feng waved to her Mother, excited to help her friend be more happy. "Mother, could you please place that on the ground for the Young Miss?"
Biyu walked over to the box, curious. The Madam also watched closely, looking like she wanted to know the secret too. Then Biyu opened the lid.
"Good turt'le!"
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[X] Study the nature of doors
[x] Study the nature of borders
Would you rather have the people of the empire be subject to the predations of powerful and capricious spirits? It seems obvious to me that the people of the empire benefit from being part of a powerful state. I really can't think of an example where a state having more power has made people worse off. People suffer without a strong central authority.
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- CA
Nuclear weapons? There wasn't really any need to have weapons that automatically salt the earth in their wake. Sure, MAD, but you don't need to have Mutual Assured Destruction if Destruction isn't even on the table. The world might have ended in 1983 if not for Stanislav Petrov.
And when it comes to Sovereign threats, humans scale up to it much more quickly and in much greater numbers than Spirits. Even if once the world needed a serious calling of its Sovereign Spirit predator population, that culling already happened. It seems like pretty much all the remaining need to scale up to Sovereign is to protect against human threats, not Spirit ones. This is seemingly the White Sky's perspective on the matter, and I think it's a hard one to argue against.
- Location
- Finland
Basicly yes.
We talk about treating spirits like people.
But Peaks does that. It's just that their extreme hierarchy boner means that people are treated like things (in abstract at least, people being people, there will be lot of variety to in person interactions).
Deadly Snark
Tryhard As Fuck
You are saying that in the wake of powerful states having either culled hostile spirits or made mutually acceptable pacts with amendable spirits. What happens when it breakdowns?
Oh wait we know exactly what happens, Anarchy and mass suffering.
This is like saying "We don't need government" and then being surprised when Leather Clad Warlords drives in to do unspeakable things. Nature abhors a vacuum.
Nature abhors a vacuum, and while Humans are the most active of the Sovereigns, they are far from the only ones, nor are they the most potent. Keep in mind a Mortal Sovereign has at most a millennia lifespan before they either ascend or much more likely just die. And even then, they never start out as such. They have to climb to reach that peak from below even red while many powerful spirits naturally hit green, cyan or even higher without any input past being born. Furthermore, they are fundamentally either stuck at white or get booted of planet for being too strong, while spirits can and have surpassed white into being Sublime, which while they are not the most active anymore, could if roused dominate a white with little effort. Keep in mind, that the First Emperor won the acceptance of Serpent Grandmother by taking one blow from her, which created a bay you can see on the map to this day. Spirits and spirit beasts vastly outscale humans, they always have and always will. The difference is they are slow, slow to change and slow to rouse, in exchange for a massive differential in power in their own bailwick.
That's part of the reason why the Sunflower Goddess is such a massive threat, she's an active and angry Sublime which means removing the Jungle is a fool's errand, at best. At worst it is entirely MAD with two Sublimes or more going at each other full tilt and making a ruin that make the Golden Sands look quaint. And while you can argue that the Sunflower Goddess is a self-inflicted Sublime on the Empire, given how utterly alien many spirits are to humans and how entirely we are out scaled by them, the fact humans escalate faster is the only reason as a race we've not been ground out. Because even the most base spirit can kill dozens or more humans relatively easily if left unchecked by an equivalent power, and all too often that power has to be a human cultivator because other spirits are either unwilling, unable or too uncaring to intervene.
This planet for all its wonder and majesty, is still a death world compared to even our earth which hosts some extreme environs even for us. Either we grow and adapt to face it, or we get consumed. This is doubly true in Forge, upon which we've seen only a small snippet of planet and even then, it's downright inhospitable or even worse actively working against it in some areas.
Winged One
Not the Simurgh
- Location
- definitely the ground
- Pronouns
- They/Them/It
Technically the Mad Max shit isn't anarchy. Anarchy is the five seconds before the Mad Max shit starts up where nobody's in charge.
- Location
- CA
If the problem is Sovereign+ threats, and you're filling the world with more of them, then you're increasing the odds that sooner or later, one of them goes off. There's a reason my implicit comparison was nuclear weapons. They're simply more power than anyone really requires, and given the nature of their power, they run the risk of polluting the world itself in a way that can't be easily erased.
I'm not saying the answer is unilateral disarmament. But if you actually care about a no-nuclear future, if you want to escape the threat of constant annihilation or subjugation from the next Twilight King or Sage Emperor, then there comes a point where you actually have to start destroying the damn missiles.
The White Sky are not a Mad Max wasteland, and your Hard Men Making Hard Decisions rhetoric is entirely ignoring their existence. It's been provably shown that you can have a functional society that deals with problematic spirits and that also isn't ruled by Whites. And if we're speaking of Nature Abhoring a Vacuum, Hidden Moon, Grinning Moon, Beast Kings. Ling Qi has quite a few stories about how people can, if given a chance, respond to threats without simply smashing them with equivalent power, and we've been given abundant evidence that all of these stories actually happened. Hell, even the Yith demonstrate that you don't need to bring yourself under the threat of constant annihilation by your own Whites to have a response to threats of that level.
Deadly Snark
Tryhard As Fuck
Alright, who's going to be this world-spanning Authority who can be trusted to lead a globe wide the disarmament program and who will not take advantage of said program eventually to conquer the world? And this is assuming said world-spanning authority can even be established in the first place, because Nukes are objects.
Sovereigns are people, they are parents, spiritual and temporal leaders and Reverred Living Ancestors. Destroying the Damn Missiles in this context means killing or crippling someone's god or ancestor, ripping out the heart of a whole culture. And if you are the kind of person who can convince Sovereigns to follow your and make deals, why wouldn't you just become the ruler of the world with their backing ala the First Emperor?
And no shit the White Sky is not a Mad Max Wasteland. They are a functioning Society, where their Sovereigns and Whites deliberately turn over Temporal Power for Spiritual Authority. No, they leave the killing to their Priests that they imbue with Temporal Power. With their power projection being Sovereign Fortresses and Mantles that allows non-Sovereign to nuke enemies. So the foundation of their state is still Sovereign Power.
Or to use your Analogy. The difference is that their Nukes aren't the rulers. But the words and actions of their temporal rulers are still backed by a fully functional nuclear arsenal. If they did not have this, they'd get overrun. So back at square 1.
You are looking at their rethoric instead of the actual functionality of their system. You believe both ES/Imperial and WS/Northern folks who are playing up the "We are different people", instead of looking at how the basic functions of their systems are the same.
As for the Yith. Their response to threats is voltroning into Whites and white Pantheons based on consensus. That's a recipe ripe for civil strife and that's assuming fusions do not have a chance of going wrong. Furthermore. We do not even know enough about their system and culture to judge, so its a little rich to go "Their system is better or worse" when we plainly do not know.
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- CA
I'm gonna be frank with you, any desire I had to respond died a violent fiery death the moment I read "Sovereigns are people, they are parents, spiritual and temporal leaders and Reverred Living Ancestors. Destroying the Damn Missiles in this context means killing or crippling someone's god or ancestor". My dude, as CuriousRaptor pointed out earlier, human Sovereigns have limited lifespans. The convenient thing about them, compared to nuclear missiles, is that they neutralize themselves in time. You just need to not make more.
If you're extending so little generosity in your arguments that you go to that interpretation, then there's no real point talking to you. Have a nice day.
Deadly Snark
Tryhard As Fuck
Sublime Ancestors are Sovereigns and above, and are the nuclear foundations of many Empires. They are Immortal as far as anyone knows. Now answer the question instead of insulting me.
Also, do you not know that Nuclear Missiles also degrade/neutralize themselves in time? The march of Entropy affects them as well. While the nuclear materials last a long time, the things that makes them functioning missiles like electronics degrade.
One of the current world crisis is that the Cold War Nuclear Arsenal of the United States is aging fast because Victory Disease meant they didn't care to maintain or modernize them. Whereas Russia and China did. So now because the White House was too drunk, US strategists are in a position where they need to either rush modernizing nukes right the fuck now, (not a good thing when nukes), or they need to go into knife range with Russia and China right away to obtain lasting concessions before their nuclear deterrence goes offline just as their rivals are at the apex of their strength.
Sentinel setbacks expose aged and decrepit US nukes - Asia Times
The LGM-35A Sentinel intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM) program faces significant overruns and delays, casting an unwelcome spotlight on America’s
asiatimes.com
So "You just need to not make more" also doesn't work. Because that still means trusting everyone to follow that compact, and you need oversight to insure everyone follows it. And it means that the first person to betray that compact is gonna have an unassailable advantage for a time period.
Well I suppose one can just punish them. Or but wait, they have Sovereigns and you don't. You literally don't have the power to punish someone from breaking the "Non-Sovereigns" compact, unless you have a Pantheon of Sovereigns ready at all time to teleport in and kick any would be sovereign's ass. And you can only maintain that surveillance if you Watchmen Sovereigns have heirs to continue their work.
Also bro, "Just don't make more Sovereigns" in the context of the Northerners and White Sky is telling their Cultivators that they should no longer take on their sacred duty of becoming cities and refuges for their people. So what? Are they supposed to just not make Fortresses against Polar Demons and not make refuges to house their growing pop?
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...Nukes neutralize themselves in time... actually, every modern weapon(and by modern I mean, since we invented FLINT KNAPPING) neutralizes themselves in time. It takes genuinely massive expenditure to maintain modern nuclear arsenals.
EDIT: @Deadly Snark you need more Tritium to keep modern Nuclear weaponry operational every five or so years.
Deadly Snark
Tryhard As Fuck
That was the one, a friend of mine talked about this to me before, but I forgot the name of the material. And yeah, I think the current US Nuclear Arsenal has a pretty big deficit of Tritium.
I think you are underestimatong the positive effects that sovereigns jave on the world. It is only after Tsu ascended that the seasons came to exist and it became possible for people in the empire to farm.
It is only because of sovereigns existing that the world is even livable. Do you want them to give all of that up? Give up the capacity to change the laws of the world to make the world more hospitable to human kind? That is an enormous-- and frankly unacceptable-- thing to give up.
Giving up power does not lessen the ability of peoples to destroy themselves. Even when we didn't have nuclear weapons there were still genocides and other war crimes. It only makes people helpless to solve issues.
- Location
- Chicago
- Pronouns
- She/They
Y'all are missing the point.
Sovereigns are becoming increasingly unnecessary.
That means that we did need them, and do need them, but the benefit/harm scale is increasing and inevitably tilting towards harm as the history of ascensions puts more and more constraints on what the world is. Most importantly, their interests are not the same as the people under them, so you cannot ignore the people under them.
The assumption that there must be an authority to do this is mistaken.
Want an empire without sovereigns? Poison the spirit stone mines or break the dragon's geomancy, wait a thousand years, and there won't be any sovereigns because green spirit stones are as much as you are going to be able to find.
Which is meaningful from the perspective of the ruling class, the ones who order battles and survive them. Less so for the people getting orders and dying.
Entitled much?
Sovereigns are becoming increasingly unnecessary.
That means that we did need them, and do need them, but the benefit/harm scale is increasing and inevitably tilting towards harm as the history of ascensions puts more and more constraints on what the world is. Most importantly, their interests are not the same as the people under them, so you cannot ignore the people under them.
The assumption that there must be an authority to do this is mistaken.
Want an empire without sovereigns? Poison the spirit stone mines or break the dragon's geomancy, wait a thousand years, and there won't be any sovereigns because green spirit stones are as much as you are going to be able to find.
Which is meaningful from the perspective of the ruling class, the ones who order battles and survive them. Less so for the people getting orders and dying.
Entitled much?
Ok... now how about all the other methods of Becoming Sovereign?
- Location
- Finland
"Great Spirit or Bust."
- Ling Qi, the first mattriarch and founder of the Southern Emerald Seas Ling clan.
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Like really, destroying the spirit Stones mines wont stop people from becoming Sovereigns at all. There are many more ways to cultivate even in the empire beside that. Like reason it is so widespread is that it is safe and its flexibility. If you really wanted to stop people from getting that high you would need to destroy the world. Because as long as there are spirits and the world is a magical place there will be ways to get that high.
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- Location
- Chicago
- Pronouns
- She/They
The thread has yet to admit to a conviction that would enable us to become sovereign. The general consensus seems to be that the attitude towards domination seemingly needed to be sovereign is unethical in and of itself.