Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

[Elsecaller]

Yeah all the old clans have methods of cultivation that doesn't need spirit stones, there were sovereigns before Qin took over afterall. The Bai like Meizhen have methods to cultivate from lakes like lake Hei and even Qi has methods to replace spirit stones with Qi taken from the moon and stars. You can get rid of spirit stones but you can't get rid of all sites and sources of Qi.

Heck, Shu Yue is a sovereign and has been noted to have never used a single spirit stone.

 

[nope0]

The thread has yet to admit to a conviction that would enable us to become sovereign. The general consensus seems to be that the attitude towards domination seemingly needed to be sovereign is unethical in and of itself.

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We have. It is that no conflict should come from miscommunication and ignorance.

 

[ReignTorrential]

The thread has yet to admit to a conviction that would enable us to become sovereign. The general consensus seems to be that the attitude towards domination seemingly needed to be sovereign is unethical in and of itself.

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Turns out Ling Qi is capable of being unethical. What an earth-shaking revelation.

 

[Aliya]

Huisheng is choice and multitude-pilled, and yet clearly was Sovereign once upon a time. So the path is viable.

 

[Glau]

And what do you suppose Huisheng imposed or over-ruled?

I think we got a hint of it from our geomancy teacher.

We have. It is that no conflict should come from miscommunication and ignorance.

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And what do you think it means to force this to happen? Forcible education at very least, to prevent conflict from ignorance. What else?

 

[Elsecaller]

And what do you suppose Huisheng imposed or over-ruled?

I think we got a hint of it from our geomancy teacher.



And what do you think it means to force this to happen? Forcible education at very least, to prevent conflict from ignorance. What else?

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Eh, Qi has already dealt with that portion, the option to keep silence and choose not communicate is integral to communication in itself. Qi wants to remove the barriers that prevent communication, not force it, she's still about choice after all. It's pretty clear that she's on the path of the sovereign, and the seeming contradictions are something she's actively working through. She has time of course because she's still green, but sovereignty seems to be inevitable to her path.

 

[nope0]

And what do you think it means to force this to happen? Forcible education at very least, to prevent conflict from ignorance. What else?

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I sincerely do not see why that is needed. Culture is not so inflexible to persuasion and change. Ling Qi seeks to change the world and the way that people think without intruding on their agency. She does not seek to be powerless. Powelessness is not a virtue.

You know the sidestory about the seafaring Bai? They met a buddhist whose presence foreclosed even thinking about violence. Perhaps in the future Ling Qi could be similar? People communicating their needs and wants more clearly when in her presence, people being more disposed to talk and negotiate first before committing to violence. Something like that.

 

[Glau]

Ling Qi seeks to change the world and the way that people think without intruding on their agency.

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So, Ling Qi explicitly does not want to intrude on agency. What about this then drives progression? This is something that is feasible at green. What is it about refusing to rule that leads to sovereignity?

the option to keep silence and choose not communicate is integral to communication in itself.

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So, basically, what you are saying is that Ling Qi wishes people would do things a certain way but is unwilling to impose that way on them. This seems like the exact opposite of sovereignity.


Huisheng, I think, got to be sovereign by saying "none shall be forced into peace and unity". It definitely overrules the wills and desires of those following the Orthodox dreaming way, but I don't think it works for us. 'None shall be forced to communicate' is squarely in opposition to 'no conflict shall arise from ignorance or miscommunication'.

 

[Aliya]

I mean, there people to overrule for us. People who don't consider foreigners people due to it being inconvenient or due to blind dogma, instead of deciding to treat them badly after a fair consideration (which is somewhat acceptable to our way). Just need to steamroll over Alabaster Sands and Celestial Peaks.

 

[Elsecaller]

So, basically, what you are saying is that Ling Qi wishes people would do things a certain way but is unwilling to impose that way on them. This seems like the exact opposite of sovereignity.

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Making it easier to communicate doesn't mean you have to force communication on them. Sovereigns say that the world is wrong and they are right. Qi has done that many times already and is working on changing the world. The world is predisposed to communication issues and constant violence and conquest as seen by the primordial nightmare "The Forever King". Qi is going to impose her version of reality on the world, one where communication and peace is easier, that's sovereignty in another way. Tsu ascended with a diplomatic way and ordered the seasons. It's not impossible to have the kind of way Qi is going towards, the supposed contradiction is something Qi is working through, not an impossible obstacle. Heck yrs himself said that as long as we keep reading the story will go all the way to white.

 

[Anderein]

"We don't need Sovereigns!" We say, in a thread about a character who will not stop until she becomes one.

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This is unfortunately irrelevant to the argument. The best form of government by far is a benign and well-intentioned god-king, given their power and the alacrity of individual and unfettered action; the worst form of government by far is a cruel and selfish god-king, given their power and the alacrity of individual and unfettered action. The problem with nuclear weapons isn't that a good person will eventually use them badly, it's that they will inevitably end up in the hands of a bad person simply by existing, and at that point the damage done may be lasting and nigh-irreversible. One Twilight King's damage surpasses the benefits of half a dozen different Tsus.

Would I be fine with Ling Qi being a Sovereign? Yeah, she's a good person and she means well, and given the existence of other Sovereigns, it's basically a necessity for her to make lasting change. Otherwise it's simply too easy for some opponent of hers to snuff her out with brute force. But that's an adaptation to a bad situation, not a sign of hypocrisy or proof the ideal is inherently unworkable.

 

[Glau]

I mean, there people to overrule for us. People who don't consider foreigners people due to it being inconvenient or due to blind dogma, instead of deciding to treat them badly after a fair consideration (which is somewhat acceptable to our way). Just need to steamroll over Alabaster Sands and Celestial Peaks.

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I agree, I just think that communication is a red herring if that is truly where we are going to make our stand. Changing dogma and belief has communication as the tool, not the goal, not the 'on this, I am right' statement.

Making it easier to communicate doesn't mean you have to force communication on them. Sovereigns say that the world is wrong and they are right. Qi has done that many times already and is working on changing the world.

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What about the world is wrong?

It's not the lack of communication, really. That only gets you to the point where irreconcilable conflicts of interest are fully exposed. The right way to resolve them is something we (if I may be so bold) aren't willing to cut on the way to white, so we can't build a way without it and still get to white.

The world is predisposed to communication issues and constant violence and conquest as seen by the primordial nightmare "The Forever King".

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Yeah except he was REAL clear in his communication. Simple message, strongly conveyed. I don't understand how you see the forever king as problem of communication and not power incentives.

 

[Blademaster]

That means that we did need them, and do need them, but the benefit/harm scale is increasing and inevitably tilting towards harm as the history of ascensions puts more and more constraints on what the world is. Most importantly, their interests are not the same as the people under them, so you cannot ignore the people under them.

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Ascension fade with enough time if there are no others ascension building on them

 

[Elsecaller]

Yeah except he was REAL clear in his communication. Simple message, strongly conveyed. I don't understand how you see the forever king as problem of communication and not power incentives.

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The problem with communication there is that people never resort to talking, they always resort it violence because that's the way things have always been and how they always will be. The world is wrong because there are barriers like this to communication, things that make it harder for people to understand each other and easier to just fight instead. That's what Qi sees is wrong with the world, and what she means to change.

 

[Elsecaller]

"Bao Qian. I have an answer to the question you asked, back at the start. About what I need the power of ascension for."

"Ah, do you now?" He questioned. "I suspected."

She gave a shallow nod. "I am going to improve the way we in the Emerald Seas communicate. Within and without. There are so many squabbling factions, in clans and between clans, a million petty disputes and borders that snarl and tangle every single thing, that cause battles that have no need to happen. This is what I am going to contribute to the future Cai Renxiang sees."

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Found the quote I was looking for. Qi specifically sees the way that they communicate as so wrong that she intends to ascend to fix it. She sees the world as wrong and fully intends to fix that.

 

[Glau]

The problem with communication there is that people never resort to talking, they always resort it violence because that's the way things have always been and how they always will be

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I think I found the root of our disagreement. I don't think people resort to violence because they don't know a better alternative. I think people resort to violence because they think they can win and they think they can get away with it.

Of you come up to someone who has something you want and you trade for it, you can both walk away happy.

But if you just take the thing, then you've got it and don't have to give up anything for it.

Communication can change the 'do they think they can win' and 'do they think they can get away with it' calculus, but only if what it conveys is credible.

 

[Ehorin]

One Twilight King's damage surpasses the benefits of half a dozen different Tsus.

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Does it really though?

And like... no, no it doesn't, not at all.

Like, here's the thing, society still exists after the Twilight King. Tsu ordered the seasons, I don't think it's actually possible to overstate just how much of an impact that has, not just on settled agriculture, but on wandering hunter gatherers, wandering agriculture, and frankly, every other form of life on top of that.

As in, it's really hard to imagine how there even WAS life pre-Tsu. There clearly was, Tsu came from somewhere after all, but like... trying to imagine what you'd need to not die when you can go from the depths of winter to the height of summer multiple times a month, week, day.

It is actually impossible to figure out what life was actually like pre-Tsu anymore, beyond, well, definitely massively worse than literally anywhere on the current planet.

 

[Karthak Urzak]

Ascension fade with enough time if there are no others ascension building on them

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Is that actually stated anywhere in the text? Older great spirits tend to be stronger.

Imperial stuff is pretty scattered but centers around notions of ancestor worship, with the idea of various GS' overseeing a waiting room sort of afterlife where ancestors can watch over their descendants while they contemplate the Dao until they're ready to join with a great spirit(in the core everyone's ancestors are literally the staff of the heavenly bureaucracy) Others less so Dreaming way goes with reincarnation and so do some other local strains of faith.

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A reply that got a thumbs up from Yrs:

So in universe is 'dead ancestors slowly making it to ghost-ascension' part of the reasons the older ascensions would be more powerful? That even beyond any 'known' biological and/or ideological descendants that made it to ascension while alive, theres at least theoretically a trickle of dead people adding their ghost-ascensions weight to the Great Spirits?

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Regarding the wider discussion I find it a bit weird that it's being argued that people striving to achieve the pinnacle of might shouldn't happen. Which genre is this story again?

 

[Candesce]

The best form of government by far is a benign and well-intentioned god-king, given their power and the alacrity of individual and unfettered action;

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This isn't true, unless your god-king is so much a literal god that literally only their actions could ever matter - and even in that case, your God is going to have problems benefiting the rest of society.

Unfettered action is not a positive for any serious state; they're too big and cause too much damage with even the slightest movements for that alacrity to accomplish anything but tearing themselves apart. There's a reason that liberal states have been so much more successful than the authoritarian ones, and it's not just that there's no such thing as a benevolent tyrant in practice.

 

[Ehorin]

t's not just that there's no such thing as a benevolent tyrant in practice.

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meanwhile: "half the liberal states looking back at the benevolent tyrant who dragged them kicking and screaming into liberalism in the first place".

Liberal Democracies have strong advantages over pretty much every authoritarian system in practice, true enough. But, it is also true that people are people, and some people, are, in fact, capable of exercising power in genuinely positively ways. Authoritarian systems have issues consistently getting such individuals reliably, but when they DO get such individuals, there are very positive effects.

 

[Elsecaller]

I think I found the root of our disagreement. I don't think people resort to violence because they don't know a better alternative. I think people resort to violence because they think they can win and they think they can get away with it.

Of you come up to someone who has something you want and you trade for it, you can both walk away happy.

But if you just take the thing, then you've got it and don't have to give up anything for it.

Communication can change the 'do they think they can win' and 'do they think they can get away with it' calculus, but only if what it conveys is credible.

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It doesn't matter what you and I think, only what Qi herself thinks. And she does think that in many many cases the violence is because of a lack of understanding and communication, and that's what drives her to ascend. As shown in the quote that I provided, she intends to ascend because she sees these barriers and intends to remove them.

 

[reignonyrparade]

Yeah all the old clans have methods of cultivation that doesn't need spirit stones, there were sovereigns before Qin took over afterall. The Bai like Meizhen have methods to cultivate from lakes like lake Hei and even Qi has methods to replace spirit stones with Qi taken from the moon and stars. You can get rid of spirit stones but you can't get rid of all sites and sources of Qi.

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Even if you got rid of all the spirit stones, made the old clans forget their original methods of cultivation, locked away all cultivation sites, you'd still have Tribulation Unending meaning you could toss yourself into incredibly dangerous situations and if you make it through have a chance of a suitable cultivation reward.

(Also, like, ascensions don't just restrict the nature of reality, they can also open it back up again, like when Palace of One said "hey you can do dream stuff in the emerald seas now even though Inviolate Death previously kept all but the higher realms from doing that.")

 

[Doramas]

The problem with any Xianxia world is it has "natural" ocurring Sovereigns popping around. Sticking to the metaphor, even if you don't build nukes, nukes can still appear on their own and drop on you.

Sovereigns are becoming increasingly unnecessary? What? Are we even reading the same story?
Should the Golden Sands clans stop cultivating Sovereigns to fight against the desert zombies?
Should the Polar Nations just let the starbeasts corrode the world?
Even at a smaller scale, what if a spirit like Madam Gray manages to hit 6th realm and proclaim themselves the owner of humans? Or if a kilin or dragon decides to emulate the dragon gods of old?

Humanity's basic survival, their very right to exist, hangs on having enough Sovereigns at all times.
And as soon as one group has Sovereigns, the others will also need them, because we all know what happens when there is such a big difference of power between two groups.

 

[Imugi]

Barriers. Borders. These were things of division. They impeded communication. People divided themselves in order to quarrel and fight to define who was kin and who was not. That was the ugly root at the core of Community. Exclusion, enemies, these were how its boundaries were defined.

She saw the rusty blades sprouting under the Emerald Mourners rot slick hooves. Saw the passage under the mountains lined with dying slaves.

This was the Unity of Blades, iron law written into the fabric of the Emerald Seas.

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'Barriers. Borders. These were things of division. They impeded communication.' Boundaries impede communication, but it does not have to be that way. Because there are boundaries, there is communication and through the establishment of better boundaries, better communication can be had. Power is wrought through boundaries. Those who can better establish their boundaries can better use their power.

 

[ReignTorrential]

What about the world is wrong?

It's not the lack of communication, really.

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It's good you disagree with LQ. That's a good sign. They say a thesis that everyone agrees with is a bad thesis, and the same surely applies to a Way. There will be people in universe who look LQ in the eyes and say the same stuff you're saying, and three cheers for that.