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Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
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Aaaa, obvious choice is obvious (for me?).

[X] The teachers meditations on Choice and Sincerity, and their interactions with Truth

It's the thing that ling and huisheng talked about in the chapter! I'm curious to explore the topic further, and it's going to be central to Ling Qi's future shaping of her Way, so it's more useful (i think).
 
Truth is indeed more useful, i am surprised so many are going for the Community option. :s
 
Glau said:
It addresses the heart demon we are building.

The core conflict it is addressing is the tension between peace and choice, as outlined last chapter, which is extraordinarily relevant when walking into a war. We've chosen choice, but we are striving for peace, and this chasing two hares.

Why is it ok for us to fight the ith?

Self defence is unrelated to communication. It has no justification nor is it prohibited. Why, then, do we feel it is acceptable and righteous? If that isn't made into part of our way, it will be cut on the way to white.

What choices remove one from a community? Does the individual get a choice? Isolation is imposed, not chosen, almost always.

Pretending that choice and truth don't need to be resolved, that we can go and make hard choices in a war without investigating what it means to choose, and how it matters if the choice is based on a lie rather than truth? That is begging for a heart demon.
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This kind of highlights the issue I have with the second option.

Is Choice important to Ling Qi's Way and circumstances? Yeah, absolutely, that's a position I've expressed even. But this formula of Choice, in this vote, glues it together with Sincerity and Truth, in ways that are really weak.

In your post, Truth just kind of gets tacked on at the end, unrelated to the (to be clear, I think cogent and thoughtful) main body of subject matter. Heck, your second to last sentence invokes the concepts of exclusion and isolation, which are the province of the first vote option, as connected to Choice, in a more convincing way than you present Truth's connection.

And I don't think that's the fault of anything but the inherent weakness of the Truth/Sincerity here, in the vote. You're making basically the strongest argument possible. It's the material which lacks substance and doesn't stand up to scrutiny. I can picture circumstances where that's different, but the requirement is lead-up before this point, which obviously we don't currently have.

Like, maybe I can put it another way. It's possible that this "Choice" vote could be salvaged from the problems I've highlighted by deemphasizing the Truth/Sincerity stuff in the coming scene. Focus hard on the big, core Choice stuff. That's a doable approach. Based on several posts, I think it would even be a popular approach, reflecting the intentions of some voters. But then the vote option itself isn't true, shouldn't exist as it does, and would just prove that the Truth/Sincerity stuff is an undercooked distraction. If the best outcome for a vote option just reinforces its premise was flawed, and that's not even intentional, I don't know why it should be attractive to us before the fact.

Edit: And I don't really anticipate a heart demon any time soon. Even if there's highly appropriate events coming up to cause one, Ling Qi's characterization doesn't look like it's on course to be in a prudent place to receive one. Not with the plot threads we want to do things with post-war. Our last heart demon was pretty much an unmitigated disaster because we kept getting plowed through "too big to fail" plot points without getting to reflect on our issues. The same dynamic is in play. Quite a few things have, for good reason, grown giant in their delays and being locked behind looming disasters.

It's not good terrain for confronting a heart demon. Not that crises have been either, which just adds to my skepticism we'll be picking one up.

More relevant to this vote, I don't think either option has an impact on whether or not we get a heart demon. If we do, it'll be fit to the circumstances we find ourselves in, and we're on course to go through enough shit that if we're getting one, we're getting one regardless.
 
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AbeoLogos said:
This kind of highlights the issue I have with the second option.

Is Choice important to Ling Qi's Way and circumstances? Yeah, absolutely, that's a position I've expressed even. But this formula of Choice, in this vote, glues it together with Sincerity and Truth, in ways that are really weak.

In your post, Truth just kind of gets tacked on at the end, unrelated to the (to be clear, I think cogent and thoughtful) main body of subject matter. Heck, your second to last sentence invokes the concepts of exclusion and isolation, which are the province of the first vote option, as connected to Choice, in a more convincing way than you present Truth's connection.

And I don't think that's the fault of anything but the inherent weakness of the Truth/Sincerity here, in the vote. You're making basically the strongest argument possible. It's the material which lacks substance and doesn't stand up to scrutiny. I can picture circumstances where that's different, but the requirement is lead-up before this point, which obviously we don't currently have.

Like, maybe I can put it another way. It's possible that this "Choice" vote could be salvaged from the problems I've highlighted by deemphasizing the Truth/Sincerity stuff in the coming scene. Focus hard on the big, core Choice stuff. That's a doable approach. Based on several posts, I think it would even be a popular approach, reflecting the intentions of some voters. But then the vote option itself isn't true, shouldn't exist as it does, and would just prove that the Truth/Sincerity stuff is an undercooked distraction. If the best outcome for a vote option just reinforces its premise was flawed, and that's not even intentional, I don't know why it should be attractive to us before the fact.
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See, the thing, I fundamentally deny your previous post's statement that Ling Qi has no current arc or struggle with Truth or Sincerity.

A lot of Ling Qi's recent developments with Truth have been taking distance from the concept. Lightening the truth by delivering it more indirectly, or finding a way to tailor her words to a person (or even misleading them) without sacrificing sincerity. To call all truths subjective can bring only ruin, sure, but while she's not rejecting Truth she's a lot more willing to obfuscate than she used to be before she became a diplomat. And I'd say that's because her current conception of truth seems heavily influenced by what she's seen of its extremity. When she imagines Truth, she's thinking of Shenhua's merciless light: a powerful force that orders the world, but a fundamentally harsh one.

And I don't think that's a desirable state for her to be in, you know? I'd rather not that continue to be the basis of her understanding of the truth. Someone has to challenge her on that, or else it's not going to change.

Part of why I'm interested in Huisheng's examination of Truth is that by all appearances he's the Arch-Heretic because he rejects the spiritual focus of the Dreaming Way. Want gives birth to Choice, and Choice gives birth to Multitude, and therefore our Wants are what give us identity. Between that and his rejection of the spiritual as what gives us meaning, he's the closest we've seen to an existentialist in the setting.

I'd like Ling Qi to end up at a more joyful conception of Truth, and hopefully Huisheng can get her there.
 
Here's when we dealt with our Truth strain.
yrsillar said:
[ ] Truth and lies are the two edges of a blade. Sincerity, need and intent determine if the cut is cruel or kind.

[ ] Truth and lies are the weft and warp of communication. Clarity, understanding, these determine the quality of words.
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And here's the followup scene to the vote.

yrsillar said:
"I think… Truth and lies are neither wholly good nor evil. Clarity, for intent to never be misunderstood, is the unalloyed good," Ling Qi said.

"On the other hand, is being understood important if the other person doesn't believe you?" Sixiang wondered.

"It is," Ling Qi said. "That too is part of my Way. For me to speak and those who listen to understand my intent. But…. there needs to be room to soften words and to hold things back. People can't go through life with every thought on display."

"Man you have an exacting definition of truth huh?" Sixiang said, sitting up as her zither fell silent.

Ling Qi frowned looking out over the gardens lit by the bright light of the nearly full moon. "...Probably. Probably…. It's hard not too, with everything, with everything in recent history."
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There's also a chunk where she talks to Qingge, worth reading for a cute refresher.

Ling Qi already softened her conception of Truth, and I honestly can't think of a single time since she's struggled or felt any tension with that new status quo. There's been no hint of conflict or a lack of conviction.

As a side note, we did vote for Clarity, so I'm kind of confused by Sincerity's place in this vote. It's not even our primary conception of Truth!
 
AbeoLogos said:
Here's when we dealt with our Truth strain.
And here's the followup scene to the vote.



There's also a chunk where she talks to Qingge, worth reading for a cute refresher.

Ling Qi already softened her conception of Truth, and I honestly can't think of a single time since she's struggled or felt any tension with that new status quo. There's been no hint of conflict or a lack of conviction.

As a side note, we did vote for Clarity, so I'm kind of confused by Sincerity's place in this vote. It's not even our primary conception of Truth!
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Did she soften it, though? Even in that conversation, she's still focused on softening and holding back--truth as something that needs to be withstood. And Sixiang immediately points out that Ling Qi's definition of truth is "exacting," and Ling Qi and Sixiang basically agree that her uncompromising view of Truth is a cultural trauma response to all the lingering effects of Hui solipsistic nonsense.

Like, if that's her softening her view of Truth, then the edge may not be sharp but it's still a damn big cudgel. Not sure that's much of an improvement.
 
I feel like Truth and Sincerity are relevant? Especially in the thoughts Ling Qi has about Choice. We just had Qi thinking about how Choice brings multitudes and from that many people with many Truths and how hard it is to balance that without taking away other's autonomy.
 
Anderein said:
Did she soften it, though? Even in that conversation, she's still focused on softening and holding back--truth as something that needs to be withstood. And Sixiang immediately points out that Ling Qi's definition of truth is "exacting," and Ling Qi and Sixiang basically agree that her uncompromising view of Truth is a cultural trauma response to all the lingering effects of Hui solipsistic nonsense.

Like, if that's her softening her view of Truth, then the edge may not be sharp but it's still a damn big cudgel. Not sure that's much of an improvement.
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This sounds like you want to get rid of it, honestly? Which, sure, I'm down.

The reason Ling Qi's conception of Truth is relatively uncompromising is because she inserted it in her spirit as a fundamental Insight on the nature of the world. There's really only so far you can bend it until it stops being what it is. Truth isn't a super mutable concept? Trying to fit "It's okay to not tell the truth, actually" in around the Insight is inherently tricky because of the chance of coming out with a statement that says nothing meaningful. But we actually did do that! And Ling Qi hasn't had any real issues since. I'm not sure what you think is possible, here. Or even necessary.

And I'm going to reiterate the lack of issues. Ling Qi has had exactly one Truth-based conflict with anyone or anything, in the entire length of the quest. It was with Sixiang, in the nightmare tribulation. A conflict where Sixiang expressed confusion, we immediately damaged our Truth insight to get through the situation, and then we ignored it for 8-9 months.

A really annoying period of time, by the way. I don't know if you remember, but basically every vote got treated by somebody as a secret referendum on our damaged Truth concept. Including through the whole summit. It was exhausting and pointless.

And I think something like that is basically guaranteed to repeat itself if we ask Huisheng to fill our head with doubts on our otherwise perfectly un-challenging framework for Truth, now Clarity. Because that gap wasn't random chance, it was structural. Truth simply isn't that relevant to the things we do, or the people we interact with. It feels weird, but it's the honest truth.

Truth is structurally difficult to engage with because it just doesn't matter much. It never has. There's no tension. No real narrative traction. And nothing tangible for Huisheng to iterate off of, here.
 
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Aehs said:
I feel like Truth and Sincerity are relevant? Especially in the thoughts Ling Qi has about Choice. We just had Qi thinking about how Choice brings multitudes and from that many people with many Truths and how hard it is to balance that without taking away other's autonomy.
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Just as a point of order, this isn't what Truth means to Ling Qi, really.

Originally, when we took our first Truth Insight, it was about rejecting deception. Then it was retconned to be about being a measure of worthiness in interpersonal interactions. Most recently, we transformed it to be about ethics and intent in communication, more or less (also it's not "Truth" anymore).

For Ling Qi "Truth" has never been about, like, facts. It's a mix of conduct and understanding. People having different truths has never really been an obstacle for her conception of Truth.
 
It's hard to judge the consequences of the choice-sincerity-truth option. Would it start a whole new project that is unlikely to have room for development with all upcoming events (roots lesson, wedding, negotiations, war), as Abeo thinks? Or will it nicely round up the "recovery" arc by circling back to Ling Qi's truth contemplations after the summit and completing it?

Overall, the whole arc was all-around, making it hard to choose how to finish it. Looking back at the main events, I think choice-sincerity-truth is more fitting. Ling Qi admitted her role as a mother with Zhengui, clarified things with Bao Qian, and exchanged insights with Renxiang. Isolation-exclusion-community could also work, but perhaps less effectively.

However, we don't technically need a closure and are not guaranteed to get one. Then, choice-sincerity-truth is significantly less appealing since there is no truth/sincerity-based conflict that needs a resolution now. Again, Ling Qi's already talked with Zhengui. I'd postpone truth or sincerity discussions until they become relevant in the story so that any conclusion made has an impactful payoff.

[X] The teachers meditations on Exclusion and Isolation and their interaction with Community
 
[X] The teachers meditations on Exclusion and Isolation and their interaction with Community

This kinda interests me more, seeing as we're about to enter a war with people we're in one way or another excluding from... quite a few things?

The Empire is BUILT on exclusion, and war functions as a tool for it as well.
 
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