Remove ads

Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Reader mode
Alectai said:
The argument is that it universally applies to anyone in the Emerald Seas by default, and that it fundamentally puts us in opposition with the feudal system in favor of anarchism because we have to show respect to people who won't show us respect in turn, but because they're part of the Community we can't exempt them without coming into conflict with our other Insights.

I can see the argument, in the sense that the Insight as written doesn't explicitly say this isn't the case, but I do personally think that's stretching the definition of Community so far you can see daylight out of it just to find a reason to reject it. The argument technically isn't wrong, it just relies on a maximalist perspective where everyone in your geographical region the size of a large real world country must be treated like a next door neighbor, and that people we've never met but are physically close also have to be treated politely and courteously even if we have every reason to believe they're a Bad Actor who will never tolerate any relationship.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
It's not even about neighbors though, it's about good neighbors. Reciprocity is a key component to the insight, so the idea that it ties our hands with people who do not themselves extend the respect outlined in the insight is confusing.
 
Alectai said:
The argument is that it universally applies to anyone in the Emerald Seas by default, and that it fundamentally puts us in opposition with the feudal system in favor of anarchism because we have to show respect to people who won't show us respect in turn, but because they're part of the Community we can't exempt them without coming into conflict with our other Insights.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
You keep focusing on bad actors but this can just be people we have philosophical and political disagreements with.

My position is that this insight should push us towards taking the stance that we should be pursuing consensus and convincing people to agree with our policies rather than trying to force our will on anyone without very good reason (e.g. they're committing crimes). This isn't necessarily a bad stance to take! But it can be problematic when e.g. you've got 70% agreement on something but the remaining 30% really don't want what you want. And taking the position that in such instances we should just agree to disagree and do nothing until we can work out our differences may - again - not be invalid, but might be annoying.
 
Erebeal said:
So we should only start respecting people once we know them well? That's not exactly a great philosophy for social interaction. Like come on. This philosophy, as part of our Way, should meaningfully guide our behaviour. Trying to carve it up so we can avoid actually having it affect our social interactions as much as possible is just missing the point imo.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I mean, I'm not arguing that we shouldn't behave this way with strangers, generally speaking, I'm just saying that strangers are not neighbors, so the Insight doesn't require it, though it encourages it as a way to make new friends, neighbors, and acquaintances. But an Insight encouraging a course of behavior and requiring it are very different things.
 
[X] A good neighbor listens without spying, speaks without demanding, takes without dominating, gives without submitting. Respect is the foundation of community.
 
We want to change the emerald seas, and unfortunately that may mean being poor neighbors. Making demands of those who otherwise extend respect.

We want a world where our successor can take this insight. But I don't think we are there.

[X] Do not take insight from MoSS
 
[X] A good neighbor listens without spying, speaks without demanding, takes without dominating, gives without submitting. Respect is the foundation of community.
 
[X] A good neighbor listens without spying, speaks without demanding, takes without dominating, gives without submitting. Respect is the foundation of community.

"Neighbor", here, is in the context of community. Community is fundamentally exclusionary. It has an in-group and an out-group. In my read of Ling Qi's ideas of community, it wouldn't include, say, nobles from other duchies. It wouldn't even include the White Sky - not at first. Maybe eventually we could build enough of a rapport with the White Sky that they would count as part of our community, and thus enter into the sort of relationship where how good we are as a neighbor might be meaningful... but we aren't that yet. Obstructionist Diao bureaucrats certainly don't qualify.

...and yes. I would prefer that Ling Qi have something in her that feels guilt when she finds herself with sufficient cause to betray the trust of the members of her community. That seems like a good thing.
 
[X] A good neighbor listens without spying, speaks without demanding, takes without dominating, gives without submitting. Respect is the foundation of community.
 
[X] A good neighbor listens without spying, speaks without demanding, takes without dominating, gives without submitting. Respect is the foundation of community.
 
DeadmanwalkingXI said:
Everyone in the world, or even your country, is not your neighbor, that's a specific group of people.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I disagree, the much simpler interpretation is that everyone is either our community or our neighbour.
Jumping through hoops to define what might or might not be a neighbour just sounds like trying to find loopholes.
Gonna apply Occam's razor on this one.

DeadmanwalkingXI said:
Out-group people are not inherently enemies to Ling Qi like they are to, say, Sun Shao, but the whole world aren't part of any of her in-groups either.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

This very insight is what would define how you should treat your out-group.

Erebeal said:
My position is that this insight should push us towards taking the stance that we should be pursuing consensus and convincing people to agree with our policies rather than trying to force our will on anyone without very good reason (e.g. they're committing crimes).
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I agree that this will be limiting in how we can bring about change, but I also feel that is good.
If we're using spy/dream powers on everyone who isn't our kin or hasn't proven to be 'good neighbours', then we're just becoming the same kind of monster who uses brute strength to make others submit.

The flavour of power is different, but it sets us on the path where we can use our power on any neighbours simply because we have that power.

By saying that spying makes us a bad neighbour, we are saying that we should only use our power when there is just cause.

Tamwin5 said:
We want to change the emerald seas, and unfortunately that may mean being poor neighbors. Making demands of those who otherwise extend respect.

We want a world where our successor can take this insight. But I don't think we are there.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

This is actually the most convincing argument so far. And I agree that this will make changing the Emerald Seas much harder.

But even so, I think that this hard path is something we should take.
Because by taking this insight we force ourselves to not be just the next conquer or revolution leader. Someone who, while being a better/kinder, leader, still just fits the mold of 'power gives you the right to demand and dominate'.

This insight would instead take us on the path of changing the Emerald Seas without demanding or dominating, without forcing others to submission

The path will be harder, but if we succeed, we will not just be filling an old mold, but redefining the the very mold of what it means to be a leader.

As for waiting for a successor to take this insight, I don't think we can rely on luck that much.
If anything, we should take this insight to teach it to others.
 
It doesn't seem that different from Good Politics in general?

So first definitions of social circles:
-Self - Yourself of course
-Family - Family, close friends and other forms of inner circle.
-Neighbors - Those belonging under the same Community. People you expect to have to work with long term.
-Strangers - People who don't belong to your Community.
-Enemies - People dedicated against you or your Community.

So what does this mean in practice?
-Listening without Spying
Bai Anxi is a good case study of this.
Listening and interpreting what they present and signal is not spying on them, nor is reading their body language or resource flows.
We were in his head, next to his deepest, most sensitive thoughts, and yet we were trusted to do so, and permitted to do so, because we could metaphorically be trusted to go in their house, walk through the bedroom to catch a spider without opening their underwear drawer.
People who spy on everything without probable cause result in everyone reacting defensively to them. This is important for our Way, because we're going to be kind of good at this sort of thing.

-Speaking without Demanding
This means that we can't issue ultimatums without scenarios where they have already put themselves outside the Community. It makes things more tricky to navigate as a feudal lord, but...a good lord rather than a tyrant generally wants to do this anyway. Talk to people, even if they are your lessers, understand their objections and either address them or provide recompense in some way.
Because even if you are their superior you can only demand so much before they degrade or have to fight you for their own survival.

-Taking without Dominating
Same as above. The difference between taxation and robbery.
They must get something out of it. Buy-in on social contracts, services, goods, and respect returned for material loss. It doesn't have to be an equal swap but it has to be a swap.
Again, as the Bao dealings show - it has to be this way if you expect future dealings to be on the table. Otherwise everyone just learns that dealing with you sucks, and endeavors not to do so without the dominance to force your hand.

-Gives without Submitting
And this relates to generosity versus tribute.
Even the dominant partner can be generous, as above, there must be give and take.
The dominant partner must not forget to be generous, because dominance isn't forever.
To offer mercy and generousity is not the same as weakness, and this I expect is a cornerstone of Renxiang's governance to begin with.

Areas of future exploration:
-Interactions with overlapping community circles.

You can share social contexts where two opposed communities share elements under an overarching community. The Meng Isolationists are personal opponents to us, but we're allied to their kin, who are themselves under the same banner of Emerald Seas and Empire. They have to be dealt with as neighbors even if they have no interest in being good ones.

-Recompense or remediation for necessary violations.

Political reality means we need to cross the line into being a bad neighbor at least sometimes.
What do we do then?
Well, political reality says that in such cases you have to compensate them to make things right anyway, otherwise you're burying feuds like landmines.

-What about people who aren't following the rules?

This itself divides further:
--Those who aren't in your community and do not wish to be part of it.
As a feudal lord on a border, the insight itself just means that we should offer the option to negotiate entry, but if push comes to shove, they HAVE refused to be part of the community, and it is permissible, though not preferred, to bulldoze them.

--Those who are in your community and being Bad Neighbors with no intention to stop.
Practically inevitable, and will require coming to a conclusion for what to do in such cases. Get even, and to how far? Turn the other cheek? Or exile them from your community concept?
Advanced Insight bait really.

All told...these are rules we should be applying in general to anyone we intend to work with further in future regardless, when taking the long view.
There are predictable troubles, but I don't see any path forward for Community and Communication Ways that doesn't have to address those troubles regardless.
 
The arguments against the insight are weird in the sense that they're taking its meaning in a vacuum? And ignoring everything we've built up.

Ling Qi has only started started to define the groups in her community. The people you form close bonds with are your family and home. They lose connections between many homes form a community. This community is an in-group and is by definition, exclusionary.

Neighbours will be another category, which will exist between Home and Community. Closed to home (which are people, not locations), but distant to Community. It won't be as broad as current speculation. That'll be absurd. Ling Qi has repeatedly stated that she can't be friends or have connections with everyone or doesn't want to. In the context of the ES as a community, it'll be naybe good allies we can depend on, like the Wang.

And, the point of the insight about "speaking without demanding" and "taking without dominating" speaks towards acts of reciprocity, IMO. If we want something, we should probably ask first, which is something you'd do with neighbours, or a friend of a friend. If you want something, you'll probably have to give something up as well. To be a good neighbour, you don't only take and you don't only submit. And that's something I think politics, or our kind of politics, is based around already?

The take also ignores the art it's coming from? MoSS, as an art, is fundamentally about negotiation and diplomacy.

If a deal is to be struck, we don't give them everything or take everything from them. We negotiate with them respectfully, and find our zone of possible agreement. If we can't agree, then we can't negotiate, and probably can't be neighbours then. Just like how we negotiate with spirits. If they're reasonable and agreeable to us, we can talk things out and settle on a deal.

So yeah, I think the concerns would be valid if we were a baby Green, but currently they ignore what we're building on. And the fact that our concepts determine out interpretation of insights. Of we continue to define Communities in our insight, we can think more about what neighbourhoods mean, and avoid some of the problems mentioned if they do appear.
 
Last edited:
veekie said:
It doesn't seem that different from Good Politics in general?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Broadly yeah I agree. To an extent I feel it's more a matter of how much you want to pursue consensus etc. before you make things happen, and there isn't an inherently right answer there.

Like, look at the issue of community consultation for infrastructure projects. There are absolutely a lot of good reasons why we require such, and this insight points towards the importance of doing so imo. At the same time, from a quest perspective, well, our votes are often somewhat dictatorial for practical reasons of player agency and efficiency.

Now I'm not saying that yrs should start rolling dice for every major infrastructure project to see if they get bogged down in public hearings and community consultation sessions, but-
 
trebobr said:
This is actually the most convincing argument so far. And I agree that this will make changing the Emerald Seas much harder.

But even so, I think that this hard path is something we should take.
Because by taking this insight we force ourselves to not be just the next conquer or revolution leader. Someone who, while being a better/kinder, leader, still just fits the mold of 'power gives you the right to demand and dominate'.

This insight would instead take us on the path of changing the Emerald Seas without demanding or dominating, without forcing others to submission

The path will be harder, but if we succeed, we will not just be filling an old mold, but redefining the the very mold of what it means to be a leader.

As for waiting for a successor to take this insight, I don't think we can rely on luck that much.
If anything, we should take this insight to teach it to others.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
This is just waiting for a Heart Demon to happen, then.

The insight is too fine a line for LQ to walk...Not to mention she already has other insights that it may conflict with in the end.
 
[X] A good neighbor listens without spying, speaks without demanding, takes without dominating, gives without submitting. Respect is the foundation of community.

So, to move away from the whole neighbor discussion for a sec, what projects are we gonna do for the fief next? Personally, I want to develop one of the bonus resources right away, either Jadehelm scrimshaw or the chillgrasp clay due to them not costing very much while not requiring extra manpower. Sure, we can spend just 35 mats to get about 5x net wealth compared to the other two options if we go Clearwater mist, but that requires cultivator manpower to use, which we kinda...you know, don't have any yet. My personal preference is to do the scrimshaw so that we not only unlock the studies, but the tradepost and the alchemy lab just to see what those get us. Also, because I want to continue the Snowblossom shrine chain to increase the percentage chance of getting a cultivator manpower to move in so we CAN develop the Clearwater mist, which is important because I want to implement soil studies for that BIG agri boost from our fields but that costs money and I don't want to dip our funds too hard.
 
[X] A good neighbor listens without spying, speaks without demanding, takes without dominating, gives without submitting. Respect is the foundation of community.
 
I actually broadly agree with Erebeal's and Abeo's misgivings, and that is why I think we should take this insight. I think it will constraint us in interesting ways, and, like, it will obviously not apply to our enemies unless they surrender in good faith, wo we can still pull Thief of Names and Winds Shenanigans.
 
[X] A good neighbor listens without spying, speaks without demanding, takes without dominating, gives without submitting. Respect is the foundation of community.
tryrar said:
[X] A good neighbor listens without spying, speaks without demanding, takes without dominating, gives without submitting. Respect is the foundation of community.

So, to move away from the whole neighbor discussion for a sec, what projects are we gonna do for the fief next? Personally, I want to develop one of the bonus resources right away, either Jadehelm scrimshaw or the chillgrasp clay due to them not costing very much while not requiring extra manpower. Sure, we can spend just 35 mats to get about 5x net wealth compared to the other two options if we go Clearwater mist, but that requires cultivator manpower to use, which we kinda...you know, don't have any yet. My personal preference is to do the scrimshaw so that we not only unlock the studies, but the tradepost and the alchemy lab just to see what those get us. Also, because I want to continue the Snowblossom shrine chain to increase the percentage chance of getting a cultivator manpower to move in so we CAN develop the Clearwater mist, which is important because I want to implement soil studies for that BIG agri boost from our fields but that costs money and I don't want to dip our funds too hard.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
mathematically speaking, the best options are probably the granary, the theater of frost and the boats. Granary and boats give a permanent manpower, and granary and theater add up to 10 more Happiness, so about one more virtual manpower from that.

thematically, I favor theater of frost because we're in early winter, and the new options because the more potential materials for a flute we have, the better. Also, adding chances to attract cultivator manpower will be important, since we want some manning the settlement wall, and the earlier we start rolling those dices with a bonus, the better.

we'll probably not be able to give much focus to the fief in months 13 and 1 since we'll be in Xiangmen for parts of either, so I want to do more "boring" stuff then: granary and settlement walls come to mind.
 
Last edited:
[X] A good neighbor listens without spying, speaks without demanding, takes without dominating, gives without submitting. Respect is the foundation of community.
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top