Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

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A Diao scion in one of the imperial ministries stonewalling us on procedural grounds should fall under "neighbour" within the metaphor of the Insight.

I want people to consider the implications of that.

Would they? I'm not actually convinced of that at all. They would once Cai Renxiang is in charge of the Emerald Seas but large portions of the Diao are actively the enemies of the insurrection we are currently plotting. Calling them neighbors is a big stretch.

Also, if they are demanding things from us or trying to dominate us, then even if they fall under 'neighbor' they can probably be considered a bad one, and nothing prevents us from responding to bad neighbors in kind. Indeed, technically, nothing prevents us from being a bad neighbor even unprovoked...the insight passes a moral judgment on behavior rather than actually dictating it. We can be a bad neighbor if we want, we'd just feel bad about it, so we probably won't except under extreme circumstances.
 
Indeed, technically, nothing prevents us from being a bad neighbor even unprovoked...the insight passes a moral judgment on behavior rather than actually dictating it. We can be a bad neighbor if we want, we'd just feel bad about it, so we probably won't except under extreme circumstances.
Yeah no. That's a heart demon.

Like the entire point of embedding this in our Way is that it lays out guidelines for how to be a Good Person which is what we want to be. If we're ignoring that then we're cultivating wrong. And if you don't want the insight then you shouldn't take it.
 
Okay, I really think we need @yrsillar to weigh in on the intent here, once we get "This Insight is fundamentally inimical to the idea of feudal contracts and relationships and taking this will force us to take constant Heart Demons any time we interact with a bad actor who happens to also be in the Emerald Seas and thus a neighbor" or "This Insight has literally no impact on our character and thus is useless", I think we've got a misalignment of expectations that needs to be cleared up.
 
[X] A good neighbor listens without spying, speaks without demanding, takes without dominating, gives without submitting. Respect is the foundation of community.
 
Alright, yeah, I'm convinced this insight is not worth it. Especially once I start thinking what would constitute as our "neighbor" and how much would this affect our job as Renxiang's left hand. Cause this is not just a matter of diplomacy. This is also a matter of our status as a feudal lord.

I'm also reminded of the time we had to land-grab stuff away from our nominal allies, the White Sky, and when you think about it, we kinda had to at the time cause it gained us favor from our own ES nobles. How much would the definition of "neighbor" then be qualified here? How much would this insight affect us from now on? What about the Ithia regiment stationed at Xiangmen? How much would they constitute neighbor? There are times when people don't necessarily do wrong in a situation yet we kinda have to wrong back, cause it's in our job description? Stuff we really gotta question in that insight.
 
I'm also reminded of the time we had to land-grab stuff away from our nominal allies, the White Sky, and when you think about it, we kinda had to at the time cause it gained us favor from our own ES nobles. How much would the definition of "neighbor" then be qualified here? How much would this insight affect us from now on? What about the Ithia regiment stationed at Xiangmen? How much would they constitute neighbor? There are times when people don't necessarily do wrong in a situation yet we kinda have to wrong back, cause it's in our job description? Stuff we really gotta question in that insight.

That was explicitly horse trading to win the cachet so we could get away with something the White Sky wanted that would have otherwise been a bridge too far.

Stuff doesn't exist in a vacuum. The important thing is making a good faith effort. That's how negotiation works.

The Insight is literally saying that there's give and take in any relationship, and the ideal is to hit a point of mutual respect where everyone walks away with something at least. Not that "Every single interaction must be net neutral at worst or Heart Demon."

Ultimately, I just disagree that the intent is so absurdly broad that it applies to Every Single Citizen of the same, multi-million population nation as ourselves equally until proven otherwise. Just because something isn't outright denied by the strict reading of that text in isolation doesn't mean it must be applicable and therefore true.
 
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Okay, I really think we need @yrsillar to weigh in on the intent here, once we get "This Insight is fundamentally inimical to the idea of feudal contracts and relationships and taking this will force us to take constant Heart Demons any time we interact with a bad actor who happens to also be in the Emerald Seas and thus a neighbor" or "This Insight has literally no impact on our character and thus is useless", I think we've got a misalignment of expectations that needs to be cleared up.
We don't even need to be dealing with bad actors. We want to play politics! We want to shape how the province is run! People will disagree with us!

There is absolutely a valid philosophy that focuses on building consensus and trying not to step on anyone's freedoms and that can even be admirable. I'm pretty sure there have been societies irl that follow similar principles.

It's not how the Empire is run though. Heck even just getting the empire to having democratic voting and enforcing the will of a majority would be extremely revolutionary and progressive.

I'm not necessarily saying that has to be the way this insight goes, but it does feel to me like the kind of ideal it points at?
 
If this Insight only applies to our friends/family/allies, then it's mostly redundant with our first advanced Insight:

One person's desires cannot, alone make a home nor a family. (Community, Power, Want)

It's clear to me that this Insight, by using the less intimate term "neighbours" means that the standards layed out are meant for neutral parties by default, at least within the Emerald Seas. But probably also the White Sky, and other provinces of the empire. The Ith protectorate under Xiangmen.

This is also clear from the context of the art the Insight is coming from, which is about how to harmonize foreign, alien, and sometimes even mutually incompatible entities to allow dialogue. That's the lessons Ling Qi is taking from the art. The Insight is laying out a default ideal that allows for the creation of Community. It doesn't make sense if Ling Qi is exempt from the standards.

Which means, or should mean, that you'd get a pretty reactive Ling Qi. And I'm not sure that's sustainable long-term. Some times, Ling Qi is going to need/want to start shit, without any really amazing excuse for it. Or Renxiang. Or Zhengui.

Like, look at that fourth realm moose. He's grumpy and territorial, doesn't want to make friends. But is that enough of a justification to murder him, viewed through the prism of this Insight? I'm pretty skeptical of that.

Turn down the insight. Do it for murder.
 
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[X] A good neighbor listens without spying, speaks without demanding, takes without dominating, gives without submitting. Respect is the foundation of community.
 
Yeah no. That's a heart demon.

Like the entire point of embedding this in our Way is that it lays out guidelines for how to be a Good Person which is what we want to be. If we're ignoring that then we're cultivating wrong. And if you don't want the insight then you shouldn't take it.

Maybe you're right, but even if so, I don't think it's a huge problem, because I don't think our conceptual neighbors are nearly broad enough for it to be such an issue.

It's clear to me that this Insight, by using the less intimate term "neighbours" means that the standards layed out are meant for neutral parties by default, at least within the Emerald Seas. But probably also the White Sky, and other provinces of the empire. The Ith protectorate under Xiangmen.

A lot of people in those categories are actively our enemies. I'm very dubious that 'actively our enemies, will kill us if they find out our plans' people count as neighbors for this Insight. It's intended for more than our close friends, sure, but it's not intended to apply to literally everyone or it would also be phrased differently. Neighbors is less intimate than family, but it's still a lot more intimate than 'everyone' or 'random people'.

Like, look at that fourth realm moose. He's grumpy and territorial, doesn't want to make friends. But is that enough of a justification to murder him, viewed through the prism of this Insight? I'm pretty skeptical of that.

Yes it absolutely is. The moose has actively refused the offer to become our neighbor, I'm positive that means it isn't one, and we can thus murder the shit out of it. Any other interpretation is nonsensical with the word neighbor in anything but the most literal 'lives nearby' sense, and I have profound doubts the philosophical insight is being overly literal in that way.
 
[X] A good neighbor listens without spying, speaks without demanding, takes without dominating, gives without submitting. Respect is the foundation of community.
 
Ling Qi nodded primly as she sat down, drawing a small glass bottle from her storage ring. It was only a fingerlength long, but filled with foggy mist, with a small amount of clear and sparkling water at the bottom. "As you suggested we looked into the cultivation materials first in case they represented any unintentional danger toward the citizens. Together with Meng Duyi, I discovered this. We are calling it Clearwater Mist, and it is generated from the mist created when the main falls strike the surface of the lake. But the mist only gains special properties at the exact hour surrounding daybreak and sunset."
So funny that while its a Moon reagent its collected from the last rays of the sun dancing in mist heh.

Collecting it seems like its more a skill issue than an availability issue though, since it has to be collected over water, into airtight containers at a narrow window of time. Presumably it liquifies under stoppering pressure.
"Hoh, interesting!" Gan Guangli said, peering at the bottle held in her hands. "It has a bit of the same scent about it as your Muse, no?"

"It has some small properties of Dreaming Qi. Meng Duyi said it would be quite potent as a reagent in crafting cultivator grade alcohols, in addition to being useful for alchemy in general, as a base for separating and distilling the essence of mixed reagents," Ling Qi said.

Xia Lin narrowed her eyes. "The reason you used expensive glass cleansed of all residual fire qi instead of ceramic is that, isn't it?"

Ling Qi lowered her head in acknowledgement. "It is very difficult to bottle. If the container has more than a single qi alignment, the mist will break it down over time. In addition it does not like to stay in liquid form and very easily becomes mist at the slightest disturbance, requiring firm sealing methods."
Of the two uses:
-Alcohol - I'd note the alcohol readily becomes mist. Which means fizzy alcohol as it percipitates out of solution after being poured. I wonder what flavoring we have locally...

-Alchemical base - It breaks up other reagents into their base components, so it can be used to process potent reagents eith two affinities into one. And since its volatile, it evaporates readily once you're done.

But the amount of liquid harvestable is exprcted to be quite low for some time. So probably better as an alcohol than industrial solvent.
"We will need to make a small adjustment to the maintenance wards, but the breakdown effect is most potent when the mist is contained like this. Meng Duyi has already drawn us up some notes for the adjustment," Ling Qi replied.
So generally not an issue but that sounds like the boats used to harvest the mist is also going to take increased wear and tear on formations if any. Regular mortal boats with glass containers and purified mundane bellows would be best...but its right below a waterfall, so thats rather rough on the boat due to complex and strong water currents.
"Excellent. I will have them copied and distributed to the work crews by evening," Cai Renxiang said. "We will consider plans for how to gather the mist at an effective cost. Is it toxic to mortals?"

"...it would be if they remained immersed in it for some time, for the single hour in which it naturally exists? No."
I'm guessing its effects wears off within 12 hours even if they got the maximum possible dosage of an hour twice a day harvesting?

Good way to discover Dream Qi aspected common talents though.
"My investigation took me near the initial lumbering area, where the workers reported a strange fog in the middle of the day," Xia Lin said crisply, fully professional now. "The source was a patch of dull gray clay which appears to have overtaken the mundane deposit in the area. It is very cold to the touch, painfully so for a mortal, but is as soft and pliable as clay at normal temperatures. It retains these properties even when removed from the deposit."

Ling Qi hummed. "Is it even possible to fire it then?"

"Testing is underway. It is difficult requiring two or three times the length of a normal firing, which is labor intensive," Xia Lin replied. "And several batches were ruined, losing their properties."
Difficult to make into pottery without ruining it, but being naturally icy is useful enough raw, assuming quantity. Sounds like you could have some mortals harvest it with a shovel and a bucket easily.
"I will see about acquiring expertise, for now, see what can be harvested. Is there only one deposit?"

"No, there are several, arrayed around the lake shore, most are much further from Shenglu," Xia Lin said.

"I could see many benefits for cold storage if we can find the proper uses," Gan Guangli said thoughtfully. That would have great benefits for the mortals foodstores and many other things beside."
With numerous deposits though, we could just line storage areas walls with raw icy clay then place a brick facing over it. Not floors - we have a high moisture area and the cold would make condensation that may freeze to the surface.

Its easier to scrape frost off walls than floors and if its merely cool and not freezing the condensation running down the walls is easily directed into drainage trenches.
There was a faint pop of displaced air. Ling Qi stared.

"...Do I need to rally the guards?" Xia Lin asked blankly.

In Gan Guangli's arms was a massive fat fish. It must have been over two meters from head to tail, closing in on three. Its scales were a dull muddy brown shading into a bright verdant green in irregular spots… and around its head, which was thick with bony jade green plating, which extended to the rubbery whiskers which dangled from its jaw.

"Catfish! The men are calling them 'Jadehelms!" Gan Guangli said brightly. "They are quite meaty fellows!"
That is a big fishy.
"I have no reports of anyone being hurt," Cai Renxiang said calmly. "Docile?""

"Not quite, but the ones in our fishing zone are mostly a meter or less. I did have to go out quite deep to find this fellow, who was actually a red realm spirit beast," Gan Guangli chuckled, making the fish disappear back into his storage. "Most interestingly beyond the bounty of meat, the bones of their skulls, which are quite thick, have proven to take to bone carving quite well. The bone also has some wood qi properties, but the full extent is unclear. The beast's mucous also has some minor medicinal properties as well but we will need a proper alchemist to find more than that."
A meter long catfish could probably surge up the shore for a bite if it fancied its odds. Keep small children and pets away from the waterline!

It sure is a useful fish though.
Lots of meat, if considered bland flavoring, its good quality meat. Probably should look into local seasonings.

Large carvable bone supply means a good secondary industry in bone tools and ornaments. Metal needles may be more durable, but fine fish bones have been good for sewing and have few other uses. The Wood aspected side would probably take formations well, though wood qi is best for health and agriculture stuff.

And if the mucus is medicinal eating the catfish is going to be a low level health tonic on top of a readily available reagent for health drugs.
"We do have a handful of junior alchemists amongst our hires from Xiangmen. With all of this it may be best to give them a space to work soon," Cai Renxiang said thoughtfully.

"Well we do still have that pill furnace of mine," Ling Qi said, thinking fondly back to robbing Yan Renshu for all he was worth and then some.

"We do, one will likely be enough at this stage," Cai Renxiang agreed. "These are everyone's findings?"
After all the demand for healing is never low. Good practicing.
Ling Qi nodded and stood, glancing at the pond and the little tortoise swimming there. All joking aside, there was a conversation she needed to have with Zhengui.
Probably should define which are kin and level of protection that should be extended to them.

Given tortoise breeding strategies in general I suspect its easier than Qi thinks.
 
Yes it absolutely is. The moose has actively refused the offer to become our neighbor, I'm positive that means it isn't one, and we can thus murder the shit out of it. Any other interpretation is nonsensical with the word neighbor in anything but the most literal 'lives nearby' sense, and I have profound doubts the philosophical insight is being overly literal in that way
So if someone wants you to leave them alone and stay off their lawn then this justifies murderong them and stealing their land?

An interesting position, and one that certainly has strong imperial support. Not sure how it meshes with a philosophy of respecting others' positions and agency though.
 
Maybe you're right, but even if so, I don't think it's a huge problem, because I don't think our conceptual neighbors are nearly broad enough for it to be such an issue.



A lot of people in those categories are actively our enemies. I'm very dubious that 'actively our enemies, will kill us if they find out our plans' people count as neighbors for this Insight. It's intended for more than our close friends, sure, but it's not intended to apply to literally everyone or it would also be phrased differently. Neighbors is less intimate than family, but it's still a lot more intimate than 'everyone' or 'random people'.



Yes it absolutely is. The moose has actively refused the offer to become our neighbor, I'm positive that means it isn't one, and we can thus murder the shit out of it. Any other interpretation is nonsensical with the word neighbor in anything but the most literal 'lives nearby' sense, and I have profound doubts the philosophical insight is being overly literal in that way.
Look, if we can arbitrarily and costlessly exclude people on the basis that they happen to be in the way of our ambitions, and treat them however we want, then the Insight isn't saying anything and we shouldn't take it. At best.

Frankly, the flimsy pretense this interpretation turns the Insight into is distasteful. You're not describing a set of standards we're bound by. It's closer to a speed run of the narcissist's mantra.
 
So if someone wants you to leave them alone and stay off their lawn then this justifies murderong them and stealing their land?

An interesting position, and one that certainly has strong imperial support. Not sure how it meshes with a philosophy of respecting others' positions and agency though.

I do not feel the moose's actions have been as benign as 'stay off my lawn'...I'd admittedly need to look over the bit involving it again to make sure, but if that's really all it has done then the Insight might well apply until it goes further, in which case I'd actually be against killing it until it does. But my memory has been of it being significantly more aggressive and unpleasant than that, and this Insight certainly allows us to respond to aggression in kind.

Look, if we can arbitrarily and costlessly exclude people on the basis that they happen to be in the way of our ambitions, and treat them however we want, then the Insight isn't saying anything and we shouldn't take it. At best.

Frankly, the flimsy pretense this interpretation turns the Insight into is distasteful. You're not describing a set of standards we're bound by. It's closer to a speed run of the narcissist's mantra.

I am in no way saying the insight never applies, or does not apply to people we may be opposed to on some issues. I'm saying it also doesn't apply to people who hate everything we stand for and are planning our deaths, or would be if they understood us and what we have planned. There's a lot of space between those two extremes for the Insight to apply to.

Everyone in the world, or even your country, is not your neighbor, that's a specific group of people. They're less intimate than friends, sure, but it's not everyone you ever meet. It's also not an extreme pacifism Insight, it involves reciprocity and those who behave as bad neighbors to us we are not obligated to be good neighbors to in turn, to say nothing of those who need not be considered neighbors at all.

Like...in-group and out-group remain important to Ling Qi's conception of community, as do both of those concepts having layers. Neighbors are clearly a layer or three less intimate than friends or family, but they're still an 'in-group' layer, not an 'out-group' one. Out-group people are not inherently enemies to Ling Qi like they are to, say, Sun Shao, but the whole world aren't part of any of her in-groups either.
 
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I do not feel the moose's actions have been as benign as 'stay off my lawn'...I'd admittedly need to look over the bit involving it again to make sure, but if that's really all it has done then the Insight might well apply until it goes further, in which case I'd actually be against killing it until it does. But my memory has been of it being significantly more aggressive and unpleasant than that, and this Insight certainly allows us to respond to aggression in kind.



I am in no way saying the insight never applies, or does not apply to people we may be opposed to on some issues. I'm saying it also doesn't apply to people who hate everything we stand for and are planning our deaths, or would be if they understood us and what we have planned. There's a lot of space between those two extremes for the Insight to apply to.

Everyone in the world, or even your country, is not your neighbor, that's a specific group of people. They're less intimate than friends, sure, but it's not everyone you ever meet. It's also not an extreme pacifism Insight, it involves reciprocity and those who behave as bad neighbors to us we are not obligated to be good neighbors to in turn, to say nothing of those who need not be considered neighbors at all.

Like...in-group and out-group remain important to Ling Qi's conception of community, as do both of those concepts having layers. Neighbors are clearly a layer or three less intimate than friends or family, but they're still an 'in-group' layer, not an 'out-group' one. Out-group people are not inherently enemies to Ling Qi like they are to, say, Sun Shao, but the whole world aren't part of any of her in-groups either.
What me and Erebeal have been trying to point out is that our day job intrinsically involves clashes with people who are basically neutral. Or even basically allies!

Things will get a little underhanded at times, or it will serve our needs to go there. I don't think people are thinking through what it costs us to surrender initiative on these issues.

The overwhelming majority of people in our way will not be those we have a death vendetta with. There will absolutely be people who are obstacles who do not violate any particular standard of this insight, who we nonetheless MUST resort to less than cordial means to circumvent.

That's the job. That's the story. We can't rely on anyone and everyone in our way starting shit and crossing lines first. It's not realistic for one, but it's also both boring and kind of just... irresponsible treatment of the subject matter.

We're not always going to be the little bean who didn't do anything wrong and it's our birthday. Ling Qi doesn't seem to think so, anyway.
 
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What me and Erebeal have been trying to point out is that our day job intrinsically involves clashes with people who are basically neutral. Or even basically allies!

And I'm saying most 'basically neutral' people don't qualify as neighbors. Neighbors are people you know and associate with regularly, not a random guy you just met. And the 'underhanded means' this Insight prohibits even with neighbors are actually pretty narrow? Like...we can't actively spy on them or try to dominate them, but that's actually not a lot of restrictions.
 
And following on from Abeo, I would say that there is nothing wrong with pursuing consensus or just agreeing to disagree. That's a perfectly reasonable way to behave!

But we also have a lot of plans that may not mesh great with that.

And I'm saying most 'basically neutral' people don't qualify as neighbors. Neighbors are people you know and associate with regularly, not a random guy you just met. And the 'underhanded means' this Insight prohibits even with neighbors are actually pretty narrow? Like...we can't actively spy on them or try to dominate them, but that's actually not a lot of restrictions.
So we should only start respecting people once we know them well? That's not exactly a great philosophy for social interaction. Like come on. This philosophy, as part of our Way, should meaningfully guide our behaviour. Trying to carve it up so we can avoid actually having it affect our social interactions as much as possible is just missing the point imo.
 
I'm kinda baffled by the discourse, here. When I think of ways this insight could be used to way-trap us, I jump to things like "what if a Cloud Tribe we have no personal quarrel with surrenders to us in good faith with reasonable terms, and now we're bound to accept", because that's an example of someone extending respect to us in a way that would necessitate reciprocal good-neighborliness, even if it's a huge pain in the ass.

Meanwhile, the concerns people are voicing are about how we'll be fucked if we need to act against isolationists, neutral parties, or people actively working against our interests, which - what? The whole point of this insight is how reciprocal respect is the basis for community. Why would we be way-locked by it with parties outside of our community that aren't treating us with respect? Why would it apply to everyone we don't actively have some death vendetta with?

Like, take the moose. It doesn't respect us and refuses to engage with our community, and not for a lack of willingness on our end; the insight obviously doesn't apply to it. And that doesn't mean we should murder it for loot, but hey - this insight's not going to stop us, because that's not what it's about.

The downsides are real, it might interfere with future mind heists of our friends just to list another one, but given the arguments that are actually being thrown out against this insight...

[X] A good neighbor listens without spying, speaks without demanding, takes without dominating, gives without submitting. Respect is the foundation of community.
 
I'm kinda baffled by the discourse, here. When I think of ways this insight could be used to way-trap us, I jump to things like "what if a Cloud Tribe we have no personal quarrel with surrenders to us in good faith with reasonable terms, and now we're bound to accept", because that's an example of someone extending respect to us in a way that would necessitate reciprocal good-neighborliness, even if it's a huge pain in the ass.

Meanwhile, the concerns people are voicing are about how we'll be fucked if we need to act against isolationists, neutral parties, or people actively working against our interests, which - what? The whole point of this insight is how reciprocal respect is the basis for community. Why would we be way-locked by it with parties outside of our community that aren't treating us with respect? Why would it apply to everyone we don't actively have some death vendetta with?

Like, take the moose. It doesn't respect us and refuses to engage with our community, and not for a lack of willingness on our end; the insight obviously doesn't apply to it. And that doesn't mean we should murder it for loot, but hey - this insight's not going to stop us, because that's not what it's about.

The downsides are real, it might interfere with future mind heists of our friends just to list another one, but given the arguments that are actually being thrown out against this insight...

[X] A good neighbor listens without spying, speaks without demanding, takes without dominating, gives without submitting. Respect is the foundation of community.

The argument is that it universally applies to anyone in the Emerald Seas by default, and that it fundamentally puts us in opposition with the feudal system in favor of anarchism because we have to show respect to people who won't show us respect in turn, but because they're part of the Community we can't exempt them without coming into conflict with our other Insights.

I can see the argument, in the sense that the Insight as written doesn't explicitly say this isn't the case, but I do personally think that's stretching the definition of Community so far you can see daylight out of it just to find a reason to reject it. The argument technically isn't wrong, it just relies on a maximalist perspective where everyone in your geographical region the size of a large real world country must be treated like a next door neighbor, and that people we've never met but are physically close also have to be treated politely and courteously even if we have every reason to believe they're a Bad Actor who will never tolerate any relationship.

Like, it's not even something that can be disproven because it's based on a person's real world interpretation of what--exactly--is meant by "Community" in this context, which means that "Community is literally everyone you might realistically come into contact with, because they share a nationality" is as equally viable to "Community is the people you have to deal with on a day to day basis", and there's technically nothing that nails down which definition is the one in play here because that's left unsaid. So it's not incorrect to say that "It applies to everyone you could ever come into contact with and means you can never treat anyone as a realistic foe unless they make the first swing in bad faith and don't kill you.", because there is, in fact, a definition of Community which could be described as that!

What a mess.

I'm going to bed and hopefully this makes more sense tomorrow.
 
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When I say "spy," I mean it in the loosest sense. Obviously that isn't our official designation, but we do still often have to engage in "dishonest" and underhanded work, whether that's disregarding others' privacy or subverting security for information. Sure enough, we will have to engage in some act or behaviour that would have us self-identify as a "bad neighbour" at some point as well, a potential complication I don't think is worth risking for an Insight that codifies sentiments we already lean towards anyway.
 
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