Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

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Huh. So Linqin is just like Shenhua, in that she needs her dress to FEEL. She's pure compassion, and she can only feel other emotions with the help of her dress.
If she's pure compassion... shouldn't that have let her murder Hui even before she regained the capacity for hate? Or did it just let her see the horror being wrought by them, and realize she needed hate?
 
I'll just note that Measures of the Angle sounds suspiciously Peak-y, and I think I remember reading something about unmen during the strife of the twin emperors.... Sounds to me like the Hui don't have a monopoly on violations of people's minds, and that it's more a Capital tradition... Or I'm being a peak hater :D
 
People like Meizhen's dad could be unkindly described as "unmen" i guess.
And yes, violating peoples minds is probably fairly standard practice among everyone but the Zheng, and possibly even them, even Shenhua does it in a round about way.
What makes the Hui so terrible is that casuality of it, and what use they put it to.
 
And yes, violating peoples minds is probably fairly standard practice among everyone but the Zheng, and possibly even them, even Shenhua does it in a round about way.

Do you remember the creepy blind dude from back in Forge?
The Zeng cultivate their subordinates as villains. You cannot have a bunch of Zeng Heroes if you dont have any Villains left.
 
Do you remember the creepy blind dude from back in Forge?
The Zeng cultivate their subordinates as villains. You cannot have a bunch of Zeng Heroes if you dont have any Villains left.
That does not require any mind fuckery, just political and financial incentives.
There might by some mind fuckery involved, but i don't think they would need it.
 
I'll just note that Measures of the Angle sounds suspiciously Peak-y, and I think I remember reading something about unmen during the strife of the twin emperors.... Sounds to me like the Hui don't have a monopoly on violations of people's minds, and that it's more a Capital tradition... Or I'm being a peak hater :D
You don't need mental violations if you just start young and pour lots of resources and regular indoctrination at them. If it flunks you get your swordsaints, calculators and void presence assassins, and if they pass you get a retainer who is those things and also a devoted minion.

Just need a kid who sincerely believes its cool to unperson themselves.
 
That does not require any mind fuckery, just political and financial incentives.
There might by some mind fuckery involved, but i don't think they would need it.
Well, that depends on how you define 'mind fuckery'. If only the active actions of higher cultivators count, there is probably not that much of it going around. Because the MoI is very not happy about that kind of stuff.

But imo 'mind fuckery' can be any form of Indoctrination and forced selective education.
I don't think Meizhens Dad's mind was actively tempered and more that his family groomed him from the moment he showed talent to be what he is now.
 
Well, that depends on how you define 'mind fuckery'. If only the active actions of higher cultivators count, there is probably not that much of it going around. Because the MoI is very not happy about that kind of stuff.

But imo 'mind fuckery' can be any form of Indoctrination and forced selective education.

I don't think Meizhens Dad's mind was actively tempered and more that his family groomed him from the moment he showed talent to be what he is now.
Well, now you are just talking about mandatory public education as it is practiced in almost every nation that provides it. :V
 
Well, now you are just talking about mandatory public education as it is practiced in almost every nation that provides it. :V

It is scary how close the absolute control about provided information can be to mind control 'of a sort'.
But that is philosophical and political, and I'd rather not poke that any further than I seemingly already did.
 
Legit, consider if you just picked Ji Rong up off the streets at age 8 and offered to have all his family live in luxury in exchange for devoting himself to the sword.

By 18 he'd be a bona fide Swordsaint who wouldn't have had it any other way. Wait a few decades and his family will age out of consideration, and he won't even remember why he started.
 
It's deeply disturbing to see how he doesn't see others as "people", but as complements that exist just to be managed by him.

It's the exact opposite of the conclusion Ling Qi arrived at in the Nightmare Tribulation.
There she realized that you can't force everyone to think and feel as you want them to because then you'll be surrounded by dolls and mirrors.

This Hui wanted exactly that. He wanted to have absolute control over the very souls of his subjects, to the point where he considers them "objects" or "plants" to be groomed to his exact specifications.
He wanted them devoid of Choice, to exist merely as an extension of his own will.

Why even use people at that point? Just make a bunch of constructs and surround yourself with them.
That he insists on using humans just proves the that it's the uniqueness of each one that gives them worth, and thus the absurd contradiction of wanting to stripe them of their humanity.
I get the feeling that at some point he looked at the teachings of the Pure One and thought, "Couldn't we help everyone achieve Transcendence more quickly and easily by simply brainwashing them?"
 
I get the feeling that at some point he looked at the teachings of the Pure One and thought, "Couldn't we help everyone achieve Transcendence more quickly and easily by simply brainwashing them?"
Depressingly realistic and probable.
Lying to people "for their own good" is a grand old tradition all over the world.
Just look at drug PSA's.
 
If she's pure compassion... shouldn't that have let her murder Hui even before she regained the capacity for hate?
I suspect allowing Shenhua to make her the dress was as much action as she could take before hate was reintroduced.
True, total compassion, could not have will. To be truly universal, it must love all things perfectly. It could never act, only be. His sweet Rose's sorrow was exquisite, but also a sign of lingering flaw, the last he would scrape and trim away.
Yuxuan's conception of compassion was specifically a paralytic, incapable of deciding any specific action was preferable to another. Empathy for everyone without judgement, who are you to decide that the victim's suffering is more important than the oppressors fear or greed or whatever else drives them, probably some learned helplessness mixed in.
 
Adhoc vote count started by EternalObserver on Apr 3, 2023 at 1:03 PM, finished with 216 posts and 90 votes.
 
Tally 2 hours after the 2 hour warning
Adhoc vote count started by barty on Apr 3, 2023 at 2:43 PM, finished with 217 posts and 90 votes.
 
So, random thought:

Liming was woven out of the threads that were removed from Renxiang the first time she saw her mother, right?

She gave Qi a thread to upgrade her apprentice-woven gown when we chose to be her retainer.

What was the thread she gave us?

It seems like the sort of thing that is a very particular piece of a person, given the way that Shenzua groomed Liming and Renxiang- lots of looking, occasionally trimming a thread or two.

So maybe a bit of whimsy? Or anger. It was a part of liming that Shenzua approved of, after all.

He values the uniqueness of people only as the uniqueness and quality of the starting material for his project. Even if he carves them into similar jewels, that value is not lost, because the value of the material will always be an inalienable part of the value of the finished product.

And thus we are forced to take a second hard look at the number of high level talismans and elixirs made from sapient spirit beasts.

It's going to be interesting, because I think that is the hard boundary where the instinct to treat everything as a person is going to run up against *must get stronger*. The need to think through and draw a line somewhere had been hinted at earlier, I think.

It also occurs to me that predator type spirits and spirit beasts, if they are of a high enough rank to be hunting sapient prey beasts, are going to be a conundrum. They kill people, so they should be morally the best ones to kill and use, but they don't really have a choice about it.

You don't need mental violations if you just start young and pour lots of resources and regular indoctrination at them.

I think we can useful draw a line between techniques that are possible in the real world (where brainwashing doesn't really work at all), and techniques that use Qi. But I think it's a much harder line between stuff like Han Jian's morale booster banner, personal tutoring from a high realm that isn't restraining themselves, stealth techniques like ours that steals memories, and direct pruning like the Hui. I think you can define poles and a conceptual space, but categorizing any one thing is going to be fuzzy.
 
So, random thought:

Liming was woven out of the threads that were removed from Renxiang the first time she saw her mother, right?

She gave Qi a thread to upgrade her apprentice-woven gown when we chose to be her retainer.

What was the thread she gave us?

It seems like the sort of thing that is a very particular piece of a person, given the way that Shenzua groomed Liming and Renxiang- lots of looking, occasionally trimming a thread or two.

So maybe a bit of whimsy? Or anger. It was a part of liming that Shenzua approved of, after all.

If that's going to be a thing, then that strikes me as the sort of question that'd be answered when the dress awakens, in the form of a retroactive vote that influences the new spirit's personality and abilities. Which I'd be all for, because any arc exploring the new dress spirit through that lens would necessarily also be a Liming arc. She's cool!
 
Turn 18: Arc 2-1 Imperial Menagerie
"No, You're right Lady Cai, to begin with anything we dredge up should be studied with more urgency. If the capital would like access they can always order it later when they are ready," Ling Qi decided.

"Wonderful, I am sure my junior colleagues will be pleased to have more chances to earn merits, along with our sponsors in the Meng clan," Wu said, looking pleased. "Now, I do have some more technical details on the collaboration I could bring to your attention, if you'd like to begin Lady Cai…?"

"Yes, however, Ling Qi Meng Dan, you may resume your other duties. I wished for your council and attention on the larger questions," Renxiang said.

"Very well, shall I inform Gan Guangli when I see him next?" Ling Qi asked.

"I will see him first. He was only not here because his appointment with the Jia could not be altered on short notice," Renxiang replied.

Ling Qi gave a small bow, as did Meng Dan, and they took their leave as the telescope room unsealed.

Outside, heading down the stairs, Ling Qi glanced at her companion. "So, as one more informed about the celestial spheres, how concerned should I be exactly?"

"You should be quite terrified. It is likely that the sky will fall, clawed to ribbons from below as well as above," Meng Dan said pleasantly.

Ling Qi gave him an unimpressed look.

"Ah, you doubt I would hold my composure if it were so? Lady Ling wounds me."

"I would think less of you if I thought you were so detached," Ling Qi said dryly.

"Ah, that is also fair," Meng Dan said, smiling. "In truth, I don't know enough. There is something terribly dangerous in the south, but if our guests are here for this little talk they cannot find it too immediately concerning, no?"

"True. If I am to respect them as peers, I can't go assuming they've missed an immediate catastrophe brewing overhead," Ling Qi mused. She still wanted to know more if it could be related to that awful thing the Twelve Sky had backing them, or the smaller but still deadly threat in the south of their land.

"I think from the context we have sussed out that it is a matter they are long used too, even if the severity is waxing," meng Dan said. "Which is why I am not too troubled that I must talk my Uncle around on this. Thankfully he is enough of an academic himself that I am sure I can prevail with him… Though, would you care to meet with me over tea and hash out the details of our proposal, before months end?"

Ling Qi glanced his way, considering as they reached the bottom of the stairs. It was purely work, but she knew some part of her would have still backed away from it, given her realizations.

"Yes, once I have finished with the first ducal meeting, I'll send you a note with a time?"

"Wonderful. I'll be quite busy myself, so we may have to haggle a little ourselves," Meng Dan said, walking to the door with her.

"Maybe. We'll see how it works out. I'm sure the two of us can find a single hour to shake free somewhere. Good Luck Meng Dan."

"I am not the one who must keep a meeting between our ducal guests calm and civil," Meng Dan Chuckled. "Please Lady Ling, you require all the good fortune here."

She smiled, inclining her head in acknowledgement and left the observatory behind.

***​

Ling Qi was glad to see her best friend again, even if the situation didn't allow them to be as casual the way she might have liked. "Lady Bai. I am honored by your request for me to guide you to the meeting."

"It is nothing, Baroness. You are our allies' trusted retainer, it is only natural that we allow you to escort us," Bai Meizhen said cooly, but Ling Qi could detect her amusement. Here at the foot of the cloven mountain, the Bai had been waiting for her at the small square outside of their ambassador's housing. Xiao Fen was with Meizhen of course, lurking a step back from her Mistress seemingly looking at everyone and everything nearby at once.

She was sure it would be menacing, if Ling Qi had not seen the girl's expression scrunched up in frustration or embarrassment before. Xia Anxi was with her too. It looked like he'd finally given in to the climate, wearing a fine fur lined jacket instead of flowing robes. Meizhen and Xiao Fen's dresses were similar, a touch of thicker material, and color appropriate ruffs of fur at the hems and necklines.

"Nonetheless. I must also thank you for agreeing to the imposition of this meeting, and accepting my role as a mediator, speaking in my Lady's name."

"Of course, it is unfortunate that others have put their noses where they are not needed, but we understand that Lady Cai must make certain… accommodations," Bai Meizhen said. "Let us walk, Baroness."
"Yes, your understanding is most helpful," Ling Qi said, falling in beside them. She was glad that Meizhen was the one here. The Message coming from the Western Territories, saying that they might be here for this was… rude, but not to the level she could call them out on."

"Has my retainer been of use to you?" Bai Meizhen.

"Lao Keung has been a great boon," Ling Qi said. "Things are still quiet at the lake, but he has freed all of us to focus here on the summit. How have your accommodations been here?"

"Acceptable, given the hasty nature of this construction. I heard there was some trouble earlier?"

"A minor construction accident, only minor injuries," Ling Qi said.

"This is why going from hard to soft negotiations is a poor idea, you will only confuse the spirits like that," Xia Anxi said lightly.

"Well, I won't say there are not some confusion in how we mean to go along," Ling Qi said. "It's being resolved though, and I must say I'm impressed by the observatory and its grounds. I think that will lend some value to this site no matter the results."

"It is a bold statement of confidence, in holding these lands," Bai Meizhen said, inclining her head.

"It's a shame I haven't had the chance to inspect it myself," Xia Anxi said.

"Mm, you are an astrologer, aren't you? I have been told they have already made some interesting observations on the night sky, even if it is mostly over my head," Ling Qi said. If the Meng were a bit grumpy about negotiating foreign access they'd be downright hostile to the Bai still.

"A shame, it really is curious, the emanations from the sky in the far south, so curious," Xia Ani said.

"Hm, you've been studying such things?" Bai Meizhen said.

She watched Xia Anxi, he still straightened up perceptibly when addressed by Meizhen but it seemed he was a little less jumpy? Acclimation she supposed.

"Only in private moments, and with personal tools, Lady Bai," he said.

"I can't say I find the sky particularly interesting, but I have no objections," Bai Meizhen said. "Baroness, will the Jin scion be joining us today? I am aware of the Zheng, and the Xuan's invitation as well as the… westerners, but I have not heard of the northerns."
"He will not, since he is acting only in his capacity as a junior agent of the Ministry," Ling Qi said. "I admit, along with the Zheng I know very little about the Jin."

"Prideless," Meizhen sniffed. "Well the Jin are the remnants of the Jing clan, after those left the Empire long ago. They are…. Tightly entangled with the capital."

"Ah I see, those are confusing names, so similar. But if they were a branch clan that makes sense, but… how does one leave the Empire?"

"I am told the names sound more distinct in the north's dialect. Jeung, or something of the sort? The Jing backed the usurper Shang in the strife," Xia Anxi said. "And their shipbuilding and his artifice allowed them to carve their three great port cities out of the coast, and sail them away, an audacious action. They may have backed the wrong claimant, but one does have to admire their pride."

"Indeed," Bai Meizhen said. "Well, the Jin are those left behind, organized by the throne and… given their dukedom."

Ling Qi did not miss the unsubtle disdain that threaded through the word 'given' there. To the Bai, who had once been Kings and Queens in their own right, and had held their place of ruling the Thousand Lakes since before the dawn of written history, she supposed they wouldn't think highly of that. The Cai were absurdly young to their sensibilities, but Cai Shenhua had not been 'given' much at all.

"And the Zheng by contrast are the only remaining direct peers of the Bai clan?" Ling Qi asked carefully.

Meizhen pursed her lips. "...They are the only ones who can compare to the weight of our history."

"But you would be wise not to view them through our lens. The Bai and the Zheng clans could not be more different," Xia Anxi said.

"I have picked up that much, I have not even been able to determine who their current duke is," Ling Qi said.

"It seems the position is being argued over, unlike more civilized folk, their duke only holds the position for a span of a few decades before passing the position along to another relative of proper cultivation," Xia Anxi said. "It is shocking that they don't have strife over this more often."

"Yet they do not. I have not heard of the Zheng being so divided over the matter. I understand their elite view the position as both troublesome and perfunctory, an unwelcome imposition on their time and cultivation. The difficulty is usually in finding a candidate that can be pinned into the position at all by their elders, rather than too many claimants," Bai Meizhen said.

"How strange," Ling Qi said, shaking her head. They were passing alongside the mountain stream that ran through the valley now, along a road paved to follow the curves of its banks. It was certainly a different sight from the first time they had been here, the dense foliage and oppressive atmosphere replaced with the sun shining down on a sparkling burbling waters, running shallow over smooth river stones and eddying around boulders and little strips of overgrown sand and soil.

They could have been at the meeting sight in moments, but it was rude to ask ones guests to sprint and… this was a nice walk. Ling Qi observed some flower petals bobbing along the flowing water. Still she was curious and this was a good opportunity to get some perspective on the wider Empire, if only through a somewhat biased lens.

She did love her friend, but she wouldn't deny that Meizhen was thoroughly loyal to her clan. The Question was, which subject to follow for the stroll.

[ ] Discuss the Jin further, they are close allies of the Throne, and through them the west, and their representative here was not the most available, for numerous reasons.

[ ] Discuss the Zheng further, they at least sent someone, however lax and indecorous they are. And that means being able to understand and steer their interests was more important.
 
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[ ] Discuss the Zheng further, they at least sent someone, however lax and indecorous they are. And that means being able to understand and steer their interests was more important.

I think we need info on the one that's actually here more urgently. Also, the Zheng are interesting and I always want to know more about them.
 
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