Well i am not that curious, thank you very much.Still, if someone remember i am sure that am not the only one who interested in reason behind this particular choice of our first domain insight.
Because it's cool.
Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)
- Thread starter yrsillar
- Start date
- Original Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Because it's cool.
- Location
- At the end of the world
Ok, you got me.
Khhm.
But next time lets choose something actually useful in looong term.
- Location
- United States of America
While I am by no means an expert, I might be able to shed some light on the various threads of debate that ran through the thread during the vote.
First, a perception reroll isn't as good as it might sound. In a game where the number of dice we are throwing is important and not the roll value of a single dice, a reroll losses some important value. A reroll is a strong buffer against a bad perception roll, but it does little to actually increase our perception. Additionally, it triggered on a fail roll, and that situation only occurs in two circumstances. The first is that there was a bad roll, the second is that the needed successes are above the average of our perception roll. A reroll only really helps in the bad roll situation but is not likely to help in the second case given that the reroll is likely to drift towards the average, and not an upper extreme.
In that case, an individual who wanted to have a higher base perception would choose the increased dice rather than a reroll.
Second, on a thematic note, the different choices conveyed different goals for the insight. The area of effect one involved helping our friends self-reflecting while they were in our domain while the increased dice insight involved us defending our domain from those who would pretend to be friends and family. So there were different thematic interpretations that probably affected some individuals decisions. Given the... lateness in receiving the information, however, it is questionable how much influence these official interpretations had.
Third, the increase in dice is a personal advantage to Ling Qi that is not dependent on the individuals who surrounded her at the time. Given that at the time of the insight we had two entities that were at level 4 (Zhengui and Meizhen) some people might have had serious questions regarding the value of a reroll for a strong ally when it would be most common that the only ally at that level we would have in a scene requiring perception checks would be Zhengui. And for all of Zhengui's strengths (he's an amazing tank and is absolutely adorable) he's not very perceptive. A reroll on a yellow perceptions for the tournament would most likely have been of negligent use.
Hope that this gives some context as to why a person would choose the increase in dice option.
- Location
- At the end of the world
Thanks for answering me. I appreciate it.
It makes some amount of sense, especially in narrative. The thing i am most disappointed with is low benefit for future, its just 10 to S. Perception and only against lies and illusions - not very impressive, when we reach cyan it would be obsolete, whereas reroll would have only gained more value. What i am trying to say is that - insight that we have isn't useful in long term.
- Location
- The Temple of the Winds
Additionally, there was some people that believed that see through lies and illusions was something not always covered by the mere perception. And with the assumption that art slotting effects would have been more significant, a Ling Qi that was basically immune to those was seen as a significant advantage.
i'll point out that even today, with the system update, we have Perceptiveness: D (14/20) in Physical Stats, and nothing approaching it in social ones.
i'll point out that even today, with the system update, we have Perceptiveness: D (14/20) in Physical Stats, and nothing approaching it in social ones.
- Location
- United States of America
That's because the insight is balanced against the rank of our domain, which is very, very low. As our domain increases in rank the strength of our insights will most likely increase as well.
But I'll guess we'll see how that goes this cultivation turn. We are increasing our domain rank which should give us some information on how things might be increasing or stagnating.
- Location
- The Temple of the Winds
i'm not sure why you believe +10 to any stat is going to lose value as we go up the cultivation ranks, the new system is build upon the idea of a "stat reset" upon each breakthrough Ling Qi makes.
For example, having Dodge B15 is just as much an advantage at Cyan6 than it is at Green2 when we fight against a peer.
Arkeus
Crazy cat guy
- Location
- France
There were a few different arguments being used at the time:Found it
We do really had choice. I wasn't active in thread then, so i am curious to know why people still chose to include this insight (why not another one or discard it entirely).
- A bonus now is better than no bonus.
- AM is about self-knowledge, and self-knowledge is key to cultivators.
- Ling Qi is paranoid, and knowing if people are lying to us would help us decide whether her paranoia is justified or not.
- Argent Domain will make people like us more at the sect.
Basically, AM was slotted because it was shown as a big insight, we had none of those, and above all there was a signficant part of the voter base who wanted to slot everything Argent as they had spent the last year trying to change Ling Qi's build to a full Argent build.
Reroll had the issue that people believed that AM was a 'personal art', and they wanted a 'personal insight' for a 'personal art'.
Also, when it comes down to it, people prefer a stronger self bonus to a weaker area bonus.
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- Location
- At the end of the world
Interesting. But still our 10 isn't flat 10, its circumstantial 10, not always useful. Moreover even flat 10 to S. P. is something we can easily get from passive bonus of relevant Art, reroll isn't.
P.S.: Thank you @Arkeus. Your information is interesting even if i think that most reasons described are dumb.
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The basic issue here is one of the underlying mechanics - specifically, the stacking of bonuses. Because bonuses stack, any individual bonus can't be too large. Adding to this is the expectation of growth. If the bonuses are large in early green, they'll be ridiculous by late green
When growth + stacking is combined, things can get greatly out of control as we experienced intimately last year, despite the numbers starting at a reasonable level.
Hence the need to carefully limit individual bonuses.
(and one small reason why I think it would be better to remove numbers entirely from domain effects)
I can't talk for others, but I voted for AM to prevent self delusion (and having a support domain, but that failed). As much as I shitpost about "AM slot was a mistake reeeee", its current effect on ling qi is a good thing. Being forced to understand what is protecting your friends is very usefull given our domain and the fact that any future way is gonna revolve around the friends in question.
Moreover, I think that being forced to reflect on that will make our way stronger in the end (and thus less likely to self destruct like jiao). But I admit it's somewhat wishfull thinking.
Moreover, I think that being forced to reflect on that will make our way stronger in the end (and thus less likely to self destruct like jiao). But I admit it's somewhat wishfull thinking.
Heh, yeah. Probably the best example of this at the moment is Spiritual Avoid:
So, our S. Avoid is at C6 at the moment, with Fade D and Wits C. We're going to un-equip Argent Mirror, which drops our S. Avoid to D16.
But we've got a host of new Arts, and levels of extant Arts, that we're going to be training and equipping over the course of the next few turns. The specific Arts we actually train depend on quite a few variables, but if we somehow managed all of the ones that improve S. Avoid:
PLR 4: +3 -> +5, S. Avoid to D18.
CDE 1: +5, S. Avoid to C3.
ENM 1: +5, S. Avoid to C8.
HDW 1: +5, S. Avoid to C13.
MNO 1: +5, S. Avoid to C18.
IMH 1: +5, S. Avoid to C23.
DLS 1: +10, S. Avoid to B3.
That's a gain of 37, for a total of +43 to S. Avoid. from Arts and our Way (which provides a grand total of +3), and that's without Fade hitting C or Wits hitting B. Either of those alone is another +10, with both together being an effective extra +25. It's also without any of those Arts gaining more than a single level.
By the end of, say, turn 5, I think we'll manage at least the following:
CDE 5
HDW 4
PLR 5
With some levels of ENM, MNO, and probably IMH thrown in. While I'd like to squeeze DLS in I'm quite certain we don't have the time - not for by the end of Turn 5, at any rate. At least, not to reach the soft-cap all in one turn.
Probably the fun thing about this is that most of those Arts we're interested in for things other than S. Avoid. PLR is just good (Joyous Toast), CDE and HDW make up our Perception Suite, ENM and MNO are parts of our Stealth Suite, and IMH is mostly for the S. Armor as a complement to TRF. DLS is the only Art on that list that I'm interested in for the S. Avoid (as far as skills go, anyway. I think it provides a neat parallel to SCS and a stepping stone to potentially obtaining greater favor from the Grinning Moon, but we'll see).
But we've got a host of new Arts, and levels of extant Arts, that we're going to be training and equipping over the course of the next few turns. The specific Arts we actually train depend on quite a few variables, but if we somehow managed all of the ones that improve S. Avoid:
PLR 4: +3 -> +5, S. Avoid to D18.
CDE 1: +5, S. Avoid to C3.
ENM 1: +5, S. Avoid to C8.
HDW 1: +5, S. Avoid to C13.
MNO 1: +5, S. Avoid to C18.
IMH 1: +5, S. Avoid to C23.
DLS 1: +10, S. Avoid to B3.
That's a gain of 37, for a total of +43 to S. Avoid. from Arts and our Way (which provides a grand total of +3), and that's without Fade hitting C or Wits hitting B. Either of those alone is another +10, with both together being an effective extra +25. It's also without any of those Arts gaining more than a single level.
By the end of, say, turn 5, I think we'll manage at least the following:
CDE 5
HDW 4
PLR 5
With some levels of ENM, MNO, and probably IMH thrown in. While I'd like to squeeze DLS in I'm quite certain we don't have the time - not for by the end of Turn 5, at any rate. At least, not to reach the soft-cap all in one turn.
Probably the fun thing about this is that most of those Arts we're interested in for things other than S. Avoid. PLR is just good (Joyous Toast), CDE and HDW make up our Perception Suite, ENM and MNO are parts of our Stealth Suite, and IMH is mostly for the S. Armor as a complement to TRF. DLS is the only Art on that list that I'm interested in for the S. Avoid (as far as skills go, anyway. I think it provides a neat parallel to SCS and a stepping stone to potentially obtaining greater favor from the Grinning Moon, but we'll see).
TL;DR: Removing AM drops our S. Avoid to D16, but leveling a bunch of our Arts (once each) [Okay, and managing to equip all of them, which is a separate problem] drives our S. Avoid up to B3 (E: Without situational modifiers). Passive stacking hasn't gone anywhere, it's very directly tied to the way Arts function and how Talent translates more easily to more Meridians, which means more Arts, which is a simple way of saying 'stronger', though the details are more complicated than that.
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Likewise. The bonuses were icing, Argent Mirror was discussed for slotting from the moment we knew there was slotting. We wanted that self reflection because Ling Qi was habitually thoughtless and very good at posthoc rationalization, so it helped with that tendency, to force her to face herself, especially if she was going down the Moon route of changing herself, knowing what she's shifting is an asset.
The only people who were talking about slotting other Argents(aside from Argent Soul and MAYBE Argent Pulse) were the ones strongly against Argents. Literally nobody liked Argent Storm for domain.
Even Argent lovers.
Arkeus
Crazy cat guy
- Location
- France
Yeah, as the meta of "many small bonuses adds up really fast" hasn't changed, Domain shouldn't give any numerical bonus, or else they'd basically always be compared to "this is worse than a single art's single bonus" and so on. More than that, narratively Way isn't about the bonus, but about something being key to yourself. Better keep it narrative.
Anyway, about your expectations:
S.avoid is the higher of Wits of Manip, statwise, and we get Manip B this turn unless unlucky. This means that:
Turn 3: -10 AM, + Manip B (effective +10), +5-10 HDW4
Turn 4: +2-7 PLR, +5-10 CDE, +5 ENM, Fade to C (+15)
Turn 5: PLR to 10, CDE to 10, +5 SCS, +5 ENM
Turn 5 Avoid: (Manip B, Fade C) = C15 + Unqualified Bonuses Way 3, PLR 10, HDW 10, CDE 10, ENM 10 = B28
Qualified Bonuses: +10 in stealth env. (SCS), +2 Band of Occlusion
Turn 3: -10 AM, + Manip B (effective +10), +5-10 HDW4
Turn 4: +2-7 PLR, +5-10 CDE, +5 ENM, Fade to C (+15)
Turn 5: PLR to 10, CDE to 10, +5 SCS, +5 ENM
Turn 5 Avoid: (Manip B, Fade C) = C15 + Unqualified Bonuses Way 3, PLR 10, HDW 10, CDE 10, ENM 10 = B28
Qualified Bonuses: +10 in stealth env. (SCS), +2 Band of Occlusion
Argent Lovers definitely said "let's wait and see what the actual insight is before saying we don't want to slot it" though. That's a stretch for a "nobody".
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A minor correction: we actually have Perceptiveness C (0/25), it just isnt updated on the frontpage yet
- Location
- The Temple of the Winds
If we're changing something mechanically i'd rather add a limit to stacking effects than remove effects from the domain system.
Something like: tech bonuses can't push a stat above the tech's rank +1 (B rank tech limits you to A39 rank stat), and Art's passive effects can't push a stat above the Art's highest tech's rank (the passives of an Art with a B rank tech can only raise you up to at most B34).
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Arkeus
Crazy cat guy
- Location
- France
This doesn't change that this would continue making the domain insight about their effects when it comes to us considering how good they are, rather than them being about our own way of thinking.
This is just a mechanical change that, while it might solve passive proliferations (which might or might need to be solve), doesn't actually change the main issue of domain insights being judged on their mechanical benefits rather than their narrative weight.
It's nice to know that my expectations were low, ha - almost at A rank Spiritual Avoid in stealth conditions is very nice. And that's just one stat.
Yeah. Between base Cultivation, SCS, CDE, PLR, TRF, ENM, Meridians, and Jobs, I don't think so either. Unless we drop an AP off ENM or something, and that's iffy.
Turn 6 is probably going to devolve into a knife-fight, though. EPC 8 is a given, but we'll have all of PLR, ENM, HDW, SES, DLS, MNO, and IMH that can cap in Green 3, not including any successor Arts we may have picked up by then encouraging Meridian Scrunching - FSS+, FVM+, SCS+ seem to be the most likely candidates there - more Base Cultivation, etc.
Which kinda sucks, because I really want DLS for the Fade equivalent to Sable Grace, but that's life.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
Mechanically maybe not. But in terms of narrative? Not lying to oneself is hella useful always, and will continue to be so.
- Location
- scrabbling
I want a stealth art
Black Noise
Curious
- Location
- About 1AU from Sol
Unless something drastic happens there's plans to include ENM in turns 4&5. Beyond that it's hard to say but MNO/DLS and even AFL are all various degrees of attractive.
Pity that we apparently don't actually care about that.
You can just go look back at the two archive votes for new perception arts and spiritual defenses arts, the replacement arts for AM that should have amplified AM's self-knowledge insight.
Why, did anybody vote for "Truth", "Illusion", or even "Reflection", the keyword that was even part of AM? Nope. Because, for all self-knowledge gets banded about defending the AM insight, the voters don't care to follow through.
I for one wanted a Wind/Music perception art with a stronger social focus and got exactly what I wanted with HDW.
And regarding the amplifying of the insight: we dont know if it is possible to use other arts to modify an existing insight and I am quite against using more domain slots on refining the AM insight
Lark is calling and so is MNO.
Don't listen to the siren calls of ENM, which is a terrible art with terrible meaning about being forgotten.