Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Liling will ABSOLUTELY have a defense for this. Not only is (an artificial) family one of the core concepts of the whole Sun and Dharitri shtick, what Ling Qi is doing is also part of the Sunflower's modus operandi. The main difference being Ling Qi traps the target into isolation, while the Sunflowers attract the target to themselves and traps them with some sort of attracting force/smell/pheromones/whatever to make them easy drain targets.
 
Liling will ABSOLUTELY have a defense for this. Not only is (an artificial) family one of the core concepts of the whole Sun and Dharitri shtick, what Ling Qi is doing is also part of the Sunflower's modus operandi. The main difference being Ling Qi traps the target into isolation, while the Sunflowers attract the target to themselves and traps them with some sort of attracting force/smell/pheromones/whatever to make them easy drain targets.
See I don't think Liling will have a good defense. The sunflower pulls you in and the best way to defend yourself would be to cut off outside influences but that would only feed into the technique. Plus and correct me if I'm wrong
I don't think Dharitri has ever even used a dispell. Not to mention they seem to have a law of the jungle survival of the fittest thing going on and I don't see them having a community based domain.
 
I'm actually a bit curious whether, conceptually, Sun Liling would be well-equipped here. The jungle has a kind of dog-eat-dog rules of nature vibe going on which pings as both community leaning and isolation leaning depending on your perspective and rhetorical flourishes. Dharitri is kinda sketch. It's a bit of an open question how Ling Qi's Isolation envelopment would register to a spirit of bloody evolution. The triumph of growth over an uncaring and hostile world is one counter they could try for example, and while it might mitigate the debuffs coming from the effect, I don't think it'd be an effective way to break out of the isolation.

It'll probably come down to nuance in a lot of cases.


I suspect convention is Black Vipers do not bond spirit companions, because their only close tie is supposed to be to their White Serpent masters. Meizhen's being a big ol' weirdo about conventions though, so who knows.
In the Radiant Sepernt side story, the Black Viper had a snake spirit companion he called his cousin.
 
In the Radiant Sepernt side story, the Black Viper had a snake spirit companion he called his cousin.

While this is true, that was also before the current indoctrination processes were made as extensive as they are now. Indeed, them being made more extensive is one of the things the protagonists of that side story are upset about. So for modern Black Vipers it could go either way.
 
Potentially a silly question, but do we need to complete all projects in an art to master it? Or is there a limit to the number of projects we can do in an art?

Edit: Because some of these arts seem to have a /lot/ of projects
 
Last edited:
Thanks for all the interesting answers on the Weilu/Imperial divide. Reject Imperial, return to Weilu.

Now that I've caught up completely, including the side stories, I have drawn two conclusions from the Sun/Bai clusterfuck.

1. Sun Shao has gone off the deep end and this is going to end messily. Someone needs to spread some super Xianxia Roundup in the face of that Weed Goddess. So long as she's around the jungle is going to be a nightmare.

2. Screw the Bai. No, seriously, cry mich ein river. Sun Shao was loyal. Even after getting fucked with for a century and getting relentlessly sneered at he was loyal. Even after his little children were skinned alive he was loyal. And Bai Fuxi pissed that all away. The Bai pissed that all away, with their relentless racism. Sun Shao is a monster of their own creation, a monument to their sins and the failure of their Clan. Already in the beginning, when I read that most of the Thousand Lakes vassal Clans followed Sun in his rebellion I suspected it was because the Bai were terrible at inspiring loyalty, but the reality turned out to be much worse than I expected.
Bai Suzhen's definitely got her work cut out for her.
 
Last edited:
Also the Bai were totally using their vassals as a buffer for the border. So yeah.

1. Sun Shao has gone off the deep end and this is going to end messily. Someone needs to spread some super Xianxia Roundup in the face of that Weed Goddess. So long as she's around the jungle is going to be a nightmare.
Well, it's tricky because it's not like he's wrong about the Bai. They've very much taken the philosophy of being obsessive about revenge and destroying their enemies, and now that's coming back to bite them since it means that the only way WT can feel safe is if they're blocked from that. Going for the MAD button is arguably the least bad option there.

At the same time though, I totally think that the Jungle is up to something yeah. She didn't ditch her people and snap up Sun Shao and his army just because she fell in love or something imo. She's got plans.
 
The Bai weren't great but are a big enough group that some of them being complete assholes is inevitable, I suspect every Ducal family (except maybe the Zheng...the Zheng are weird) has at least one true monster who'd do the sort of things that were done to Sun Shao, the difference is one of leadership, as in most Ducal families they would be executed if they were caught doing that sort of thing. The one truly responsible for Sun Shao's betrayal was Bai Fuxi for refusing to punish members of the Bai appropriately for treachery, and he died and probably got eaten and his soul trapped in a spear by Sun Shao. Good riddance to bad rubbish.

Like, I agree the Bai aren't good folks in a lot of ways, but the kind of power play Sun Shao's family died in could have happened anywhere in the Empire, the failure of Bai Fuxi was in refusing to punish those responsible, and he's very messily dead now.
 
I definitely agree with the whole "Fuck the Bai" sentiment. But I'm kinda sympathetic to Fuxi. While he messed up badly I don't think Fuxi can really. Like, he built efficiency into his Way and so didn't think to actually kill that bad seed, just hide him away until he was useful. At the same time, he kinda cared for Shao in his own way too, but he cut away his emotions because you know, reformist Bai trying to reign in the snake pit at its worst. He tried to help, but no emotions so he understood what Shao was going through, but really didn't understand Shao, if that makes sense. That's why he said he'd get him a new family, even though he didn't understand that Shao's family was irreplaceable to him. That's why he allowed him to massacre the Jungle up to al point, because he understood revenge, but not unnecessary losses.

Also, Suzhen is also racist :V
 
I fully believe the Bai really were that bad. The thing is, Fuxi needed to have no emotion at that point in time because the Bai elitism was so baked in to their culture as to be institutional (ie he needed machine detatchment to pivot from the weakness of Bai's elitism harming the Bai as a whole).

I firmly believe that the only reason the Bai are so much better now is due to Fuxi using Shao's defection to cull the worst of the Bai. That was what probably killed Fuxi in the end, because the culling of the Bai was probably too effective (and it may have been paired up with the occassional actual assassinations).

Heck, even when the Bai backslid on their improvement due to what happened to Meizhen's mom's death/execution, the Bai still managed to improve their ways under Suzhen's rule.

Edit: that has been a thing niggling at the back of my brain from long before, on how the Bai can be seen as being so much better now when what happened to Meizhen's mom should have merited a much greater response than what they actually did.
 
Last edited:
Even from an efficiency perspective, those among the Bai responsible for the death of Sun Shao's family should die. That kind of depraved indifference to not only human life, but what is strategically correct for their side's continued survival needs to be weeded out and crushed utterly in order for the system to be functional.

No, Fuxi was just too racist even after his hitting White to actually properly appreciate that a member of the Bai even should be punished for literally anything they did to non-Bai. Even the punishment he did inflict wasn't for 'weakening our borders' or 'murder' it was for 'getting caught' (ie: showing incompetence...it was more a lesson than a true punishment). That's a decision driven by efficiency only if the goal of your efficiency doesn't even resemble your actual job as a Duke (which I suspect it didn't, I think Bai Fuxi's drives were, perhaps ironically, entirely focused on his family, not his land and unlike either Sun Shao or Ling Qi, for him family meant blood).

And Suzhen may be a bit racist now, but I'm not sure she'll even be capable of the kind of racism Fuxi demonstrated after becoming White Realm based on the insight we have into what her Sovereign Word means to her.
 
Potentially a silly question, but do we need to complete all projects in an art to master it? Or is there a limit to the number of projects we can do in an art?

Edit: Because some of these arts seem to have a /lot/ of projects
The general rule is mastering an art involves taking all of its projects, yes.

The one exception I can think of to that is WHR, where one of the projects transforms the art in a way that gets rid of the other projects. They'd be replaced with approximately the same number of different projects, though, so no real change numerically.
 
Last edited:
We're talking about the Bai here :V. Depraved indifference to human life is literally what they are.

And yeah. Efficiency = not wasting resources, and the white serpents, to all white serpents, are the most valuable resource to the Bai. And again, our understanding of a Duke is not the Bai's understanding of a Duke. He was trying to reign in the other complacent whit serpents, which is a full time job on its own. Remember, this is the time period where the Bai said "Fuck you" and killed the Imperial prince's wife because of politics.

And, well yeah, he's kinda racist (not even sure if that's the right word here since the Bai are an ethnic group by themselves. Maybe discriminatory?), but the White Serpents are always like that. Suzhen isn't "a bit racist", she just understands that at some point, troublesome elements (other White Serpents) need to be dealt with, and even then, that's only acceptable AFTER she uses her Sovereignty of the word Clan to cut them out of the family so that they're not longer white serpents.

I mean, the Bai literally have Great Spirits dedicated to making their Bronze Age caste system work with the White Serpents on top. Meizhen is really strange by Bai standards for acknowledging her retainers as actual Bai, like maybe Bai Lao Keung instead of Lao Keung.
 
We're talking about the Bai here :V. Depraved indifference to human life is literally what they are.

Well, yes. That's why I mentioned the threat to themselves and their own borders first. Murder alone is not something the Bai were ever going to care about...murder of the family of one of their most effective generals, however, should've been just from a practical stand point.

And yeah. Efficiency = not wasting resources, and the white serpents, to all white serpents, are the most valuable resource to the Bai. And again, our understanding of a Duke is not the Bai's understanding of a Duke. He was trying to reign in the other complacent whit serpents, which is a full time job on its own. Remember, this is the time period where the Bai said "Fuck you" and killed the Imperial prince's wife because of politics.

And my point is rather that killing the worst offenders would help more with that than enabling them, thus being more efficient. The fact that he was utterly unwilling to do so is a profound failure of leadership and he deserved everything that happened to him as a result.

And, well yeah, he's kinda racist (not even sure if that's the right word here since the Bai are an ethnic group by themselves. Maybe discriminatory?), but the White Serpents are always like that. Suzhen isn't "a bit racist", she just understands that at some point, troublesome elements (other White Serpents) need to be dealt with, and even then, that's only acceptable AFTER she uses her Sovereignty of the word Clan to cut them out of the family so that they're not longer white serpents.

She's racist by the standards of most, but she's nowhere near as bad as Bai Fuxi or even many Bai of her own generation, and will become a lot less racist sort of definitionally when she ascends to the White Realm based on what we've seen of her definition of Prosperity.

I mean, the Bai literally have Great Spirits dedicated to making their Bronze Age caste system work with the White Serpents on top. Meizhen is really strange by Bai standards for acknowledging her retainers as actual Bai, like maybe Bai Lao Keung instead of Lao Keung.

True. I'm not really defending the Bai here, I'm noting that even by the standards of the Bai, Fuxi was both an asshole and a fuck up.
 
The general rule is mastering an art involves taking all of its projects, yes.

The one exception I can think of to that is WHR, where one of the projects transforms the art in a way that gets rid of the other projects. They'd be replaced with approximately the same number of arts, though, so no real change numerically.
Ohh wow, we're never going to be able to master all of our arts are we?

So in terms of future arts we're mastering I take it it goes something like:
1) FSS+ successor art (required for cultivation progression)
2) SSC (our cultivation art, and generally excellent)
3) LFWT (handed to us directly by Grinning Moon and generally excellent)
4) BKSD (we've done a bunch of investment into it already, and it ties into the Weilu)
5) Everything else

Is that about right?
 
4. Have a domain that specifically counters being isolated from the world or allies
Why do you think it needs to be that specific? People don't necessarily need opposing concepts, they just need opposing effects.

For example, lets say that there is someone who has an insight that says "the weak cannot oppose the strong" and this manifests as a domain effect that can dispel any effect that specifically targets them, even if it's normally undispelable, as long as the effect is weaker than themselves.

Isolation and Superiority are not opposed or even related concepts, but they could easily have opposing effects, or pretty similar effects, depending of the cultivator's personal take on them. The same is true for most concepts.
 
Well, yes. That's why I mentioned the threat to themselves and their own borders first. Murder alone is not something the Bai were ever going to care about...murder of the family of one of their most effective generals, however, should've been just from a practical stand point.



And my point is rather that killing the worst offenders would help more with that than enabling them, thus being more efficient. The fact that he was utterly unwilling to do so is a profound failure of leadership and he deserved everything that happened to him as a result.



She's racist by the standards of most, but she's nowhere near as bad as Bai Fuxi or even many Bai of her own generation, and will become a lot less racist sort of definitionally when she ascends to the White Realm based on what we've seen of her definition of Prosperity.



True. I'm not really defending the Bai here, I'm noting that even by the standards of the Bai, Fuxi was both an asshole and a fuck up.

One of the most effective generals...yeah, the general whose main method was throw enough lives at it to win because Sacrifice. The general that all the other White Serpents disdained and looked down on because he wasn't a White Serpent. The general who's promotion took so much political capital. The Bai are a literal snakepit, with all that implies :V. Even punishing the person who killed Shao's family would have caused a huge backlash. So imagine killing said person, a White serpent,... for Shao.

As for the borders, well yeah. There are other more deserving people (White Serpents). Really, the border would have been defended event if Shao died. The Bai have been fighting it so a long, long time. The only reason it wasn't defended was because Shao did the unexpected and took all their none-Bai vassals save for like two, and the Bai, snakepit that they are, didn't expect such rebellion.

I don't really believe in the killing being more efficient when all the White Serpents are various shades of the guy who killed Shao's family and since the Bai generally have breeding issues.

Like, the times are different. That was when the Bai were at their strongest. Now, the can't even allow the petty squabbling to get in the way of reform and Prosperity. They're at their lowest. That's why someone with a Way like Suzhen has come up. Prosperity, even if it means cutting family off. Remember, the bai haven't been at this level in a long, long time. Not even sure she'll be less discriminatory or if it's okay because she less so than other White Serpents since she's like this specifically because the White Serpents are killing themselves.

And I think that's where we disagree in the end. I don't think Fuxi's an asshole. He just didn't understand emotions because of his Way, and he was trying to make the mess that was the Bai work. Rhis really just makes LQ's Way more important imo because if this misunderstanding didn't happen, Fuxi and Shao would have been great and reformed the Bai.

They're a parallel to CRX and LQ imo, if CRX was set in her Ways that family is bad and if LQ joined her later on, after her Way was set.
 
Ohh wow, we're never going to be able to master all of our arts are we?

So in terms of future arts we're mastering I take it it goes something like:
1) FSS+ successor art (required for cultivation progression)
2) SSC (our cultivation art, and generally excellent)
3) LFWT (handed to us directly by Grinning Moon and generally excellent)
4) BKSD (we've done a bunch of investment into it already, and it ties into the Weilu)
5) Everything else

Is that about right?
Yep, that's pretty much exactly the consensus on where our arts sit at the moment. Everyone's got their own pet preferences, but here's the broad strokes for everything else as I understand it:

-Social arts are in a weird place and possibly getting soft-dropped from the system, at least as we engage with it in terms of cultivation projects. But it might als obe dealt with via condensing social traits into other arts; our themes with the history and the diplomacy and the meditations on isolation/community and whatnot thankfully make this viable.
-There's ambivalence around SNR. Some people are really interested in the trait it's teasing at or the Void element. Other people don't think the art is a workable vehicle for the sorts of narratives they want to focus on with a group defence/support art due to philosophical dissonance with Ling Qi. Interestingly, in terms of raw vibes and/or raw standalone introspection, the art's decently popular, even among its detractors. Parts of it, at least. There's some appetite to complete a project or two from the art, but not to take the art to mastery.
-MoSS is basically a social art but focused on spirits, which has put it in half its own category, historically. There is some interest in the project concerning mitigating the passive ouchy auras of some human-life hostile spirits. Beyond that, no real interest in the art.
-UGM has its fans, but general consensus is it's redundant with FSS+/we don't want to spend that much time on ice/cold arts. Some people really dislike the art.
-WHR has the Garden of Mists project which retools the art to work on the basis of Formations instead of Music, along with an elemental shift. This is intended to sync up with some Zhengui narratives/themes. This is a very popular project, but there's caution about jumping into it when it can't be done justice. General consensus is there's time/room for it when we're sitting down and working on fief building more. Some people also want to grab some of the art's other projects, first, but that is silly and they are wrong. On the internet.

And other than that we don't actually have any arts to cultivate. We will actually need to be getting some new arts sometime in the not too-far future, imo. As we progress in fine-tuning our themes and what we want to accomplish, we're going to find that tinkering around with the current material we have to draw from is insufficient, imo. Quite a bit of what we've worked on does not match the directions we wish to progress in.
 
Why do you think it needs to be that specific? People don't necessarily need opposing concepts, they just need opposing effects.

For example, lets say that there is someone who has an insight that says "the weak cannot oppose the strong" and this manifests as a domain effect that can dispel any effect that specifically targets them, even if it's normally undispelable, as long as the effect is weaker than themselves.

Isolation and Superiority are not opposed or even related concepts, but they could easily have opposing effects, or pretty similar effects, depending of the cultivator's personal take on them. The same is true for most concepts.
Because you are actually getting into battling concepts now not just techniques. If someone has the superiority concept and says "I'm stronger than you" our isolation counters with "but you are still alone". They might get a partial dispel off where they don't feel the debuffs but you need to break the isolation concept if you wanna break the technique. Actually having friends also does that or rewriting reality using Shen, but you are gonna need an opposing concept if you are alone and can't defeat or force Qi to drop it.

To break the technique by yourself you need to break the concept of isolation. The concepts that can do that are the ones realted to community.
 
Last edited:
Why do you think it needs to be that specific? People don't necessarily need opposing concepts, they just need opposing effects.

For example, lets say that there is someone who has an insight that says "the weak cannot oppose the strong" and this manifests as a domain effect that can dispel any effect that specifically targets them, even if it's normally undispelable, as long as the effect is weaker than themselves.

Isolation and Superiority are not opposed or even related concepts, but they could easily have opposing effects, or pretty similar effects, depending of the cultivator's personal take on them. The same is true for most concepts.
Yrsillar — Yesterday at 03:02
yes, as noted we are starting to get into concept games, so Ling Qi's big domain technique is in fact, weak to the power of friendship
[03:03]
ort being more serious, dispels keying off community, unity or some other similar concept will be the most effective against it.
So yes, we are getting into the concept stage and not effect stage.
 
Yeah, I think opponents having Domain effects that mitigate the debuff and/or drain effects our Domain puts on them won't be too uncommon. The more literal isolating them from their allies though, that's going to be hard for people to circumvent in general I think. Trapping people in a lack of tethers/bonds/fetters is an unusual approach, philosophically. I'm pretty sure Ling Qi's anti-capture effect wouldn't let her escape it, for instance.

Her "don't hurt allies" effect might offer a loophole out if she was throwing around AoEs while blind to her allies' whereabouts, though. Wouldn't expect it to be a fast process without outside help, though.
 
One of the most effective generals...yeah, the general whose main method was throw enough lives at it to win because Sacrifice.

This is a profound mischaracterization. Everything we see about Sun Shao says he was a brilliant and immensely effective general who only sacrificed his men's lives when necessary...which it is sometimes. Shao isn't wrong that war is sacrifice. Even Fuxi acknowledges that Shao is one of his best generals.

The general that all the other White Serpents disdained and looked down on because he wasn't a White Serpent. The general who's promotion took so much political capital. The Bai are a literal snakepit, with all that implies :V. Even punishing the person who killed Shao's family would have caused a huge backlash. So imagine killing said person, a White serpent,... for Shao.

No. You kill them for treason. For allowing their internal politicking to become more important than the wellbeing and survival of the Bai as a whole and the security of the border. The fact that Sun Shao brought it to his attention should've been incidental, or at least presented as such. Does this get pushback? Sure...but if you actually care about changing things, pushback is inevitable. Fuxi was unwilling (or unable due to his Way) to actually do anything meaningful to enact real change. He was thus incapable of causing or allowing such change and in the long run his death is probably better for the Bai than his life ever would've been.

As for the borders, well yeah. There are other more deserving people (White Serpents). Really, the border would have been defended event if Shao died. The Bai have been fighting it so a long, long time. The only reason it wasn't defended was because Shao did the unexpected and took all their none-Bai vassals save for like two, and the Bai, snakepit that they are, didn't expect such rebellion.

Would it? The whole reason he became a general in the first place was the Bai profoundly screwing up at this task. But more importantly, its a matter of principle, if your goal is to get people to actually do their job and be effective (and that is Fuxi's stated goal with the Bai), then actual consequences for doing the opposite of that are necessary. Fuxi was coddling the Bai, protecting them from the consequences of their own actions, spoiling them until they were utterly useless in many ways.

Efficient? Not in the least.

I don't really believe in the killing being more efficient when all the White Serpents are various shades of the guy who killed Shao's family and since the Bai generally have breeding issues.

It's because they're all shades of him that a few killings (or other appropriate punishments) are necessary. Prove that there are real consequences for failure and corruption and you have a lot less failure and corruption.

Like, the times are different. That was when the Bai were at their strongest. Now, the can't even allow the petty squabbling to get in the way of reform and Prosperity. They're at their lowest. That's why someone with a Way like Suzhen has come up. Prosperity, even if it means cutting family off. Remember, the bai haven't been at this level in a long, long time. Not even sure she'll be less discriminatory or if it's okay because she less so than other White Serpents since she's like this specifically because the White Serpents are killing themselves.

Sure. But all this a reason they hadn't been overthrown sooner, not an excuse for them to become more decadent and worthless, which is exactly what Fuxi's leadership led to pretty directly.

And I think that's where we disagree in the end. I don't think Fuxi's an asshole. He just didn't understand emotions because of his Way, and he was trying to make the mess that was the Bai work. Rhis really just makes LQ's Way more important imo because if this misunderstanding didn't happen, Fuxi and Shao would have been great and reformed the Bai.

They're a parallel to CRX and LQ imo, if CRX was set in her Ways that family is bad and if LQ joined her later on, after her Way was set.

Fuxi certainly had lost understanding of emotions due to his Way, and like all White Realm cultivators, was defined by that Way more than he was a person. But he was not only 'pure efficiency blind to emotions', I'm not sure he was interested in efficiency at all, frankly. I don't know what his Way actually entailed, but evidence suggests it simply couldn't have been involved with actually reforming the Bai, because that's impossible without imposing real, meaningful, consequences for their actions and Fuxi seems to have been utterly incapable of doing that. Which, frankly, makes him a complete waste of space as a leader.
 
Back
Top