Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
I've been thinking about how high-level combat might work in Forge-verse and here's my thoughts:

Stances
Each cultivator starts off by assuming a stance. Stances dictate how they will attack others, defend themselves from attack, and the basic gist of their strategy. If you don't have any relevant stances then you can't act but that's really difficult to do to someone. Its basically guaranteed they'll be able to come up with something, even if that's LQ trying to punch someone.

LQ's default stance would be "I am a cloud of freezing mist filled with phantoms. I attack you by exhausting you. I defend by being difficult to get a solid strike on. This stance weakens opponents over time"
GG's would be "I am a general overseeing his men. I attack you through my subordinates. I defend by intercepting attacks with my golden hands. This stance counters stealth"
JR's is "I am a powerful brawler. I attack with lightning charged fists. I defend through being just that tough. This stance means I'm always able to hit you"

and so on. Some might be granted by the surrounding context instead of a technique, such as being in command of lesser cultivators or defending a fortress.

Naturally stances change over the course of a fight as well. The most obvious is Ji Rong's lightning form but GG shifting to personally beating up the Sunflower spirit is another example or us grappling someone through PLR are also examples. You can also be knocked out of your stance. CRX did this to us a bunch but our isolation effects could knock someone out of a group-based stance and our grapple knocked Ji Rong out of his lightning brawler stance in the tournament.

At its most simple level, high level combat would be about trying to get to use one of your strong stances while forcing your opponent to use one that they aren't good with.

Stunts
The specific actions that someone can take in a particular stance would be stunts (to borrow from the current system). This includes LQ charging up her next action with JT, teleporting allies around, vanishing into stealth in response to an attack, and so on and so forth. Blasts of lightning, punches that would level mountains are other examples of what might go in this category, these are all one and done effects. LQ has fairly few of these but they are the cornerstone of Ji Rong's and CRX's strategies.

Generally speaking stunt-level techniques are done in an exchange where A has the advantage and attacks, B defends, B attacks, A defends, and repeat. However a particularly effective exchange might stun the loser and give the other side another turn of being able to attack (ie A attacks, B defends, A attacks, B defends, B attacks ). Finishers always stun the attacker if the defender can withstand them (A uses a finisher, B defends, B attacks, A defends, B attacks...).

Battlefield Effects
Finally there are battlefield effects. These are currently not terribly significant at our level (mostly representing collateral damage) but represent people creating lasting effects in the environment. Tearing apart the hills or turning the ground inert are generally not going to decide any fights but there might be some consequences. As we grow stronger, though, we might be tearing holes between the Liminal and physical reality to help with our dream techniques or causing a permanent blizzard.

Anyone can take advantage of a field effect but presumably you are trying to cause ones that will help you and your allies while hurting your opponents.

Unfortunately you don't have complete control over this as powerful cultivators will inherently warp the area around them as they fight. Preventing this from happening is the job of containment techniques. They can be imposed on an enemy to prevent them from building up beneficial field effects but are most frequently used to prevent anyone from doing so in order to limit collateral damage. Examples of containment techniques are Jiao's dream worlds and the generic "nothing happens to the surrounding area" thing the elders do for our spars.

tl;dr Strong cultivators that are fighting should have an explicit strategy, moves that fit into that particular strategy, and side effects that stem from their actions. Combat is about making sure everything on your side synergizes while making sure everything on your opponents' side does not.
 

Great post.

I wonder if Linqin and CRX's relationship will get better or worse as CRX becomes higher cultivation and her quirks (lacking emotional reactions to things, indifference to Linqin and Oppression Mom's relationship, not being anything like a Hui, etc) becomes more obvious.

I could see them going either way, Linqin sees that she judged CRX too harshly and makes amends (or just ignores it, but stopes treating her like an enemy) or she doubles down on her dislike of CRX by openly supporting the new baby Cai as heir
 
I've been thinking about how high-level combat might work in Forge-verse and here's my thoughts:

Mmmm, this iteration of stances seems superfluous.
As you've described them, stances = combat arts + battle strategy... or just whatever the cultivator is doing at any given time.

"I am a cloud of freezing mist filled with phantoms. I attack you by exhausting you. I defend by being difficult to get a solid strike on. This stance weakens opponents over time"

Are there varied but finite stances that trump each other like poke-types? (I think that would be detrimentally rigid to forge battles.) Each individual character's situational stances seem unique. You decribed stances of Misty phantoms and lightning brawling... not stances of Melee, Def, Retreat, Range, Support etc. So how are winners of stance showdowns determined? Whoever has better hit% or resist stats?

What do stances actually do?
What does LQ gain from misty phantom stance? Initiative on offensive actions? Mana drain boost? What does she lose by being knocked out of it? Is she no longer a cloud of mist?

Or does stance just mean having techniques active? You mentioned getting knocked out of stances, but described having techniques dispelled by CRX.

What other stances would LQ take up during battle?

I presume a shift in stance occurs when LQ decides to defend ie: I am now a starlit lake, attacks cannot pierce my infinite depths. This stance defends by consuming attacks.
But forcing LQ to defend (or switch arts / tactics) is not "forcing her to use a stance that she's not god with."

When would any cultivator take up a stance that they're weak with? If an opponent's stance prevails over LQs misty phantom stance does she then take up a weaker stance with an arbitrary system assigned type advantage? I am a mediocre swordswoman and will cut you down with my saber because CQC stances beat Spellbreaker stances. It would be weird going forward for the system to incentivise such a stance / tactics change.

If the stances themselves can defeat each other and have consequential impact on the battle ,

[i am indirect misty phantom dot]
is super effective against
[i am direct lightning fisticuffs dps]

[direct lightning fisticuffs dps] stance is broken.
All stance related buffs are cancelled. All direct fisticuffs arts suffer %dmg reduction, %evade reduction, %inflict status effect reduction, etc.
then its a pokebattle where the outcome is pretty much determined by stance / type.

If stance doesn't have a consequential effect on quantifiable battle stats, (ie: determining hit chance, %dmg reduction, initiative etc.); or if it doesn't help quantify some narrative element, then it doesn't add value to the battle system.

If the stances don't defeat each other, then is the effectiveness of one stance vs another is determined by stats and techniques?

If [Moonlit tree pose] is effective against [powerful brawler stance] because LQs thousand ring buff + six's status cleanse beat JRs fisticuffs dps and paralysis duration stats...

Then what's the point of having them assume stances? Just let stats and techniques play out.

Stances, formations etc. can be great ways to quantify or systemize the effects of tactcs or combative intent. I just dun think this version of stances jives with the current stat system.
 
I could see them going either way, Linqin sees that she judged CRX too harshly and makes amends (or just ignores it, but stopes treating her like an enemy) or she doubles down on her dislike of CRX by openly supporting the new baby Cai as heir
This is actually one of the reasons I want the Diao dossier more than the others in the current vote. We have no context to predict Linqin's, or the Diao in general, actions moving forward. Was the sabotage at Hanyi's ceremony/concert the first stage of the, "I'm tired of them, time to make their lives harder," plan or no? It happened on the land of a noble that answers to the Diao...
 
[X]The Diao Clan


I agree that we need to know more about them to circumnavigate without offense in the future. I think we have a good enough future chance with the other two right now. I also agree we don't want to use potentially biased or planted info on the Meng if the possibility is out there for it to backfire. Diao is the the best choice in my opinion.
 
To be clear this framing based on stances really shines in truly high realm combat where one person might have "I am preparing a banquet" as a combat stance and be fighting someone else that has "I am an oasis" as theirs, with the stakes being literal life and death. By having defined stances we can tell how each cultivator is attempting to accomplish their goal (offensive actions), what sorts of tools they have to stymie their opponents' goal (defensive actions), and some basic structure robust enough for there to be tactical decisions.

Without stances that sort of conflict would struggle because its just so weird that it becomes difficult to tactically reason about. This sort of assistance isn't needed in Green as everyone's fighting style is mostly pursuing the same sorts of things and competing in a fairly small number of well established ways.

That said...

Are there varied but finite stances that trump each other like poke-types? (I think that would be detrimentally rigid to forge battles.)

There would be varied but infinite stances, especially as you climb up in cultivation. However you would personally only have a fairly limited number of them that a given person could really develop. For instance LQ would probably have

1. "phantom-filled mist" which wears people out slowly and is quite defensive
2. "blizzard" which does fairly limited damage but punishes mistakes harshly and builds up to a devastating finisher.
3. "band of friends" where she uses her techs to aid her allies while she hangs out in the background.

As well as the beginning of some sort of "you are stuck in dreamland" thing based on Lunatic Whirl that she hasn't managed to turn into a proper stance yet for a variety of reasons.

In general people don't change from their favorite stance unless they are forced to or are demonstrating their superiority over their opponent. An example where it would be helpful is sparring against CRX: her Dispel game against us in Art based stances would convert into stuns, resulting in us rarely getting to actually accomplish anything. However she would have a vastly harder time using her light to get rid of our spirits, making that more effective against her in particular. Unfortunately most of our abilities when it comes to supporting our allies are defensive in nature so she'd probably be able to win but we'd at least have the possibility of progress.

Switching to using a sword against her would be foolish: she's vastly better than our Yellow swordsmanship skills so she could switch to saber and make it so we'd never accomplish anything and she'd effortlessly crush our defenses.

A good example of where LQ was forced to use a weaker stance by the surrounding context is her first spar with Wang Chao which had her forced into the "defending a fortress" stance by the ruleset, she hadn't thought of any moves that worked well in that stance, and she failed when Wang Chao destroyed the "fortress" (kicking her out of a no longer applicable stance)

For one where LQ comes out on top, Ji Rong's lightning form does very accurate damage and gives him ludicrous speed but doesn't have much in the way of endurance. LQ's fog-with-phantoms stance relies partially on dodging and zoning, which his stance counters but is also good at resisting damage, a mixed result. Meanwhile him being tough doesn't help at all when it comes to contesting someone outlasting him. This results in a battle where LQ's defenses really struggles but Ji Rong's folds like a wet blanket.
 
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Celestial Spheres
"I cannot believe you volunteered to be shuffled off to some savage wilderness outpost," His colleague, Astronomer Fa sniffed.

Astronomer Wu did not bother to look up from his work, organizing his files and papers, deciding which would be vital to the project and which could be left here in storage. Paper, inkwells and tools floated and fluttered through the air, packing themselves into cubbies and shelves in their office. Outside, on the balcony the sky was growing dark as the thin clouds drifted by under the Astronomical Ministry building.

"Some of us are not afraid of fieldwork, Fa," he replied, eyeing a copy of Grandmaster Po's Complete History of Stellar Objects. Hm hm, he could likely call it luggage relevant to his work.

"Pfah, fieldwork. The Observatory of Xiangmen is only rivalled by the Imperial Observatory in the capital," Astronomer Fa replied snidely, leaning against the wall of the office. He was a tall willowy man with a feminine face, every inch the imperial noble in the current style. "You will not find anything on some freezing mountain that our instruments could not detect as easily if you were willing to dedicate yourself."

"I could continue to sit on a fifty year waiting list for use of the primary observatory certainly, or I may go south and observe directly the irregular seasons which will prove Elliptical Theory correct once and for all," Astronomer Wu shot back, straightening up with the last of his papers held against his chest. "Unlike you, my name will be remembered for all time."

"Arrogance!" said the other man, nostrils flaring in anger. He shook out his sleeves and straightened up as well. "You know perfectly well that the equations which disprove Wobble Theory are dubious at best!"

His fellow Astronomer shaped his proof, hard light and scouring numbers shimmering in the air. Astronomer Wu replied in turn, his own meticulous proofs and observations clashing in the now crackling air of the office. The air hummed and the office chairs vibrated their way across the floor as they presented their arguments without words, pure mathematics and proofs clashing in the cool evening air.

The longer held belief, Wobble Theory proposed that the the orbital path of the sun and moon were mathematically perfect circles, as befitting the Heavenly Objects and their Sphere's. The small variations which seemed to exist in their path were put down to imperfections in the rotation of the Terrestrial Sphere or 'Wobbles'. A somewhat undignified term, but it was the one which Grandmistress Ba had coined when establishing the theory.

The more modern theorem was the Elliptical Theory, which proposed that the paths of Heavenly objects were irregular, elliptical, rather than circular, which observed calculations purported to bear out.

It was obvious, to Astronomer Wu, as he traded theorems with his rival. Fools who claimed they were disrespecting Grandmistress Ba were merely that, fools. The Grandmistress could not be blamed for lacking modern tools.

"Feh, enough of this," Astronomer Fa grumbled, waving a hand and erasing the shimmering geometrical and numerical flashes from the air. "We both know that we will not convince each other like this. Honestly, you are so bullheaded Wu, chasing these new theories. Will you go haring off into Heliocentrism next?"

He met Fa's gaze with an incredulous look, and his rival smirked. They broke eye contact and laughed.

"Hmph, if I thought you were serious, I'd have told you to just challenge me to a duel if you wanted to fight so badly," Wu sniffed. "Honestly, I'm a modernist, not a crackpot."

While one could quibble about the details, anyone with access to proper astronomical tools could easily see that the Terrestrial Sphere was at the center, orbited by the moon, and then further out, the sun. The Herald and the Hound, which trailed along ahead and behind the sun, were further out on their own spheres, and beyond that was the porous and punctured Outer Sphere, through which the stars peaked. How in the world would they be protected from the Outermost Sphere if the sun were at the center?

"You speak as if one is not just a shade of the other," Fa sniffed, but it was without heat. "I suppose I should be happy to have one less name competing for a slot."

"You should," Wu replied. "Although given the reports, I do believe accompanying me would advance your project on the studies of Solar Shedding."

"Bah, I can study any objects her grace acquires in the comfort of the observatory," Fa dismissed. "I'll not get frostbite huddling with some barbarians on the ice plains beyond the Wall. Besides, those children's reports didn't tell us anything new. We were already near certain that most shed objects were battle debris from the Sun's clashes with the Outer Sphere."

"Though it seems these foreigners are more fortunate with what falls upon them," Wu said, turning back to his papers. "I've never heard of debris so large reaching the Terrestrial Sphere in the modern day."

"There may be something to your theory, in that the poles suffer from a thinness of the heavens," Fa looked as if he had swallowed a frog to admit even that much. "Naturally this doesn't require your nonsense about ellipticals."

"If the orbits were perfect circles, would our polar peoples even know the sun as more than a dim and distant thing?" Wu chided.

"No, as I have told you a hundred times, the variations in the Terrestrial Sphere's rotation accounts for that you daft fool," Fa replied.

Things were silent for a moment as Wu finished packing away the rest of his things.

"Just… try not to get eaten by barbarians or something. You may be a fool but you'd not deserve that," the other man finally huffed, turning to leave.

"I will try," Wu chuckled. "I'll be careful not to get sloppy in your absence, Fa."

"You had better do so, else I shall humiliate you at the next symposium," his rival and sometimes friend dismissed with a wave.
 
Enjoying the debate/theory battle. I wonder if sutch duels between clashing theories is how all theories are proven? I supose its just the usual IRL process put in the form of the theories literaly clashing.
 
The thing is, the setting is running on enough weird physics that the geocentric model might be the closer to reality. IIRC, according to creation myth, the sun and moon are great spirits that came after the firmament was created.
 
The thing is, the setting is running on enough weird physics that the geocentric model might be the closer to reality. IIRC, according to creation myth, the sun and moon are great spirits that came after the firmament was created.
The geocentric model is correct. The way to describe the Sun and Moon is less something naturally formed like in our universe, but instead something created to be orbiting defense platforms meant to protect against the Stars.
 
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