Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Uncharitable readings aside, the difference between the leading votes is that the write in provides Zeqing's Name before asking for help instead of asking on the back of the curiosity with a promise to talk later.

Both approaches have merit, and indeed I'm voting for both because I think each leads in a slightly different but equally interesting direction.

I definitely disagree we'd be giving an answer for free; it's a gamble on the likelihood for help with vs without the added info, which just doesn't seem likely to be worse with. Plus, between Sincere Negotiator and high Manip I really don't expect it to backfire.
I would have some issues with namecalling Zeqing if you are right, but to a much lesser degree than I currently am.

My impression though is that the vote doesn't ask for help, hence why a lot of people who were against asking for helps vote for it. I might be wrong, but the reading of the vote I have is that it plays coy with actually determining if we ask for help or tell her to leave, leaving Yrs to decide what Ling Qi means. That's by far my biggest issue with the vote.
I mean, this is literally how I interpreted the wording until a couple of pages back when people started mentioning that it was actually about centering Ling Qi in the performance. This is not a malicious reading, this is a very natural reading of the wording.
What do you mean by centering Ling Qi in the performance? I think I missed that part.
 
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I mean, this is literally how I interpreted the wording until a couple of pages back when people started mentioning that it was actually about centering Ling Qi in the performance. This is not a malicious reading, this is a very natural reading of the wording
It's malicious in the sense that you are reading it in the worst way possible even if that reading is nonsensical with how Ling Qi acts as a character and the explicit music based communication.
 
My impression though is that the vote doesn't ask for help, hence why a lot of people who were against asking for helps vote for it. I might be wrong, but the reading of the vote I have is that it plays coy with actually determining if we ask for help or tell her to leave, leaving Yrs to decide what Ling Qi means. That's by far my biggest issue with the vote.

I thought it was very obvious that it left the choice of whether to help to the Ice Witch. Which is sort of whose decision it would always be anyway.
 
It's malicious in the sense that you are reading it in the worst way possible even if that reading is nonsensical with how Ling Qi acts as a character and the explicit music based communication.

Again, this is not me trying to find worst-case interpretations of the wording, this was my intuitive first reading of the write-in. And if an intuitive reading lends itself to a negative interpretation, maybe it's not that far-fetched that a character that isn't literally in LQ's head my interpret it the same way?

What do you mean by centering Ling Qi in the performance? I think I missed that part.

Sorry, I'm not good at expressing what I mean. What I meant was the interpretation that said "the performance" is "LQ's performance", not the battle as a whole
 
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Again, this is not me trying to find worst-case interpretations of the wording, this was my intuitive first reading of the write-in. And if an intuitive reading lends itself to a negative interpretation, maybe it's not that far-fetched that a character that isn't literally in LQ's head my interpret it the same way?
.........Ling Qi is literally using the power of music to communicate to the Ice Witch's mind/soul instead of words
 
Yrsillar can just read Alectai's posts then since he's the one who wrote it and determines what the meaning is.
This isn't really fair to yrsillar, potentially not to voters supporting the plan, and isn't how votes have worked in the past. Just off the top of my head, you have our tournament arc Ji Rong fight and the most recent archive vote of examples of yrsillar not combing through people's posts to figure out what votes/plans "really" mean.
 
Yes but by asking for help, we bias her towards helping us. Its always her decision whether to help, but thats no excuse not to ask. Its much harder to get what you don't ask for.

There are many things that we could do to bias her towards helping us. Introducing ourselves to her is more likely to do so than stringing her along with the promise of later information (that she might not think we have).
 
.........Ling Qi is literally using the power of music to communicate to the Ice Witch's mind/soul instead of words
I don't think we've seen any evidence that music-based communication is in any way more "truthful" or direct than word-based communication. Just a different medium that in this case is helpful for bridging the language barrier.

And even then, we'd still have to assume that Yrs inteprets that vote like you do, and not like I do
 
There are many things that we could do to bias her towards helping us. Introducing ourselves to her is more likely to do so than stringing her along with the promise of later information (that she might not think we have).

And the fact that in the write in we dont ask is more important. We basically have to hope she is interested enough to help us without asking. Giving her something might influence her more positively to helping us, but since we do not use the info to leverage for asking help, its mostly wasted.
 
As Abeo correctly noted, it's unfair to the QM to expect to comb through the thread to get all the nuance an opinions on a vote. Ambiguous votes are ambiguous votes and carry the risk of being misinterpreted. Like, this could be very easily fixed if the vote just read "my" instead of the "the"
 
I thought it was very obvious that it left the choice of whether to help to the Ice Witch. Which is sort of whose decision it would always be anyway.
My understanding is that it also is Yrs' choice to determine whether the Ice Witch believe Ling Qi is asking for help or not, because the vote has people believing it means Ling Qi is asking for help, and others believing she isn't. It's not even truly a "do whatever" vote, it's a "Yrs has to determine if the vote is Ling Qi saying please help, if it's Ling Qi saying "do whatever", or if it's Ling Qi saying "please go away".

At least that's how I understand the vote... but given that many people have said they are voting for the vote because it means each of the different choices, well...
 
[X] I am the Student of [Winter's Muse][Songstress of Endings], Feel free to join the performance how you see fit

first of all, shifting vote to this because Hell Yeah this is excellent. If lineage is important, Zeqing and Hanyi are of a lineage that was potentially lost to White Sky, or only exists through branches, as the glacier slowly retreated. That's awesome <3



are you asking for combat build or social build? or generally both?


Ultimately the only thing that's consistent with our build is that we're a cultivator with a flexible Yin nature. We have decided to have certain limits to this flexibility, where we decide to dig in and cede no more. Most of our build on both sides will end up being quite flexible as a result, with a few extremely firm roots we will not cede.

You can read our Domain Insights to see what we're building narratively.
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Socially, we are building on Sincerity. Being more mindful of the "echoes that ring out of earshot". And counteracting the lies we tell ourselves, which may extend to the lies that others tell about themselves (to themselves) later on.
It's a Resolve build that will make use of our Earnest and Sincere Expressions to interact/communicate with others. We are quite good at communicating with Spirits.

We haven't decided on all of our Social Build. CRX was hoping for a Spymaster with extremely strong loyalty. She revised her hope to "diplomat" when she saw how . . . not competent we were at opening our mouth. Our Social Defenses were adequate but . . . we had no way to influence talks. Just listen.

I'm personally hoping for Diplo/Master Spy in which we take the risk of our cultivated contacts on personally instead of endlessly burning connections for profit/gain. Spycraft is not a good grounding for Good Civ. You get the wrong people in those positions and they poison the whole well with their corruption. Spycraft is an effective tool, and should be handled competently by those with not much love for intrigue or plots, but great joy in outsmarting/outmaneuvering their opponents. A Yin-Reactive counter-espionage ring would do well for CRX I think. And we would be well suited for it, especially as a Diplomat that forges Sincere bonds and Expresses clearly.

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Combat-wise we're a Spiritual Cultivator that focuses on Area Control in a battle. Our Ducal friends and allies all have builds that allow them to be Well Rounded with Specializations in which they blow out all non-Ducal/Marquis ranks at. Due to many fortunate circumstances, we have been able to also create a very Well Rounded build as well.
Outside of battle we have a lot of Utility focused on Stealth, Spiritual Diplomacy and Speed. Being excellent at those three, and having reasonable Perception, we're quite a good Scout.
On top of that, we have 3 Green Spirits. Which is more than any Ducal we've seen.

It's interesting as a build because we could function well in almost any role, such as the deep-vanguard Scout/Spotter (as we did in this fight). When we deploy, we bring 4 Green combatants with us (our Dress is a spirit and will eventually mean we're 5 combatants "by ourself") and as a Control specialist we can really lock-down areas that need immediate assistance. Being competent at the other roles, or having spirits that can assist at the other roles, means that we're also able to assist areas that need something more nuanced than any-old Control specialist.

Our big weakness right now is the emergence of "Disruptor" builds at our tier. Builds that seem to try and cut External Domain cultivators off from their expressions (buff chains or field effects, constructs, anything persistent) in order to open up an opportunity for traditional Duelist or Blaster builds to pound the Control-cultivator into submission. An example would be that Lightning Cage that tried to sever our links to our field effects just now. That's spooky.

We're not Ducal tier because we don't have the same resources, comprehensive Art quality, or intentional build synergy.

as a scrappy commoner, we're going to be at an Art quality disadvantage until we can start creating our own Arts, which will hopefully synergize as we build them.
First off, thanks for the in-depth analysis. That actually really helps with understanding some of the build choices made, though I do think a consistent 'Theme' should be decided on sooner, not later, if only to prevent salt buildup.

As for immediate build reqs, what are the odds of getting a solid long-range travel art down? It seems combat wise, it would make us ideally suited to rapid-reaction, creating a hardpoint that can pop up literally anywhere on a battlefield. It would also be beneficial to our Social Build, as being able to visit multiple contacts in person would definitely let us exploit our Sincerity build across a larger area more effectively. Sincerity in written form is hard to convey.
 
And frankly instead of bitching about the wording let's just ask

@yrsillar how are you going to interpret @Alectai's write-in


Yes and that screwing over the write-in in favour of the option you want to win because there's not enough time to get over 80 people to edit a single word in their votes.

Yrsillar already combs through the thread anyway since that's why the points brought up in arguments over votes gets implemented into Ling Qi's thoughts afterwards

I don't think to Yrisillar to just ask fully how it will be exactly interpret the vote as that removes part of the fun of quests. The fact that we do not know how exactly things will go once we vote for them is a large part of the draw.
 
First off, thanks for the in-depth analysis. That actually really helps with understanding some of the build choices made, though I do think a consistent 'Theme' should be decided on sooner, not later, if only to prevent salt buildup.

As for immediate build reqs, what are the odds of getting a solid long-range travel art down? It seems combat wise, it would make us ideally suited to rapid-reaction, creating a hardpoint that can pop up literally anywhere on a battlefield. It would also be beneficial to our Social Build, as being able to visit multiple contacts in person would definitely let us exploit our Sincerity build across a larger area more effectively. Sincerity in written form is hard to convey.

Long range travel is supposed to be very difficult in setting. Cyans being able to be in more than one place at a time is supposed to be a huge benefit and even Shenhua who is at the peak of power still needs to use transportation.
 
this has gone far beyond "fun" and into the realm of "make the option you dislike look bad so your vote can win", you guys want to play the "it's so ambiguous it can screw us over" card well I'm going to ask the QM so we can put a stop to this once and for all.

This is being silly. Have you considered that maybe those of us having criticism are doing so in good faith instead of just to tear down a competing vote?
 
This is being silly. Have you considered that maybe those of us having criticism are doing so in good faith instead of just to tear down a competing vote?
If people were arguing in good faith your arguments wouldn't boil down to "Yrs will totally do trap options and interpret things as negatively as possible"

Now, I've seen quests run by QM's who do that, one thing that REALLY stuck out was the QM saying "this thing you are worried about effectively cannot happen" then the thread voted for a certain thing under the understanding that the worst possible outcome was literally impossible only for the very next update to be "Well, ACTUALLY, I only said 'effectively impossible' not ACTUALLY impossible so Bad End!". I stopped reading that quest. I especially stopped because actually the QM had weighed in on the discussion and left everyone under the impression that the Bad End that immediately followed wouldn't.

I've never seen Yrs interpret a vote in the worst possible way for the players.
 
[X] I am the Student of [Winter's Muse][Songstress of Endings], Feel free to join the performance how you see fit

The second part sounds really weird, but music probably conveys it better than words.
 
If people were arguing in good faith your arguments wouldn't boil down to "Yrs will totally do trap options and interpret things as negatively as possible"

I don't think this would be a trap option on Yrs part. Like, "act aloof and confident" would be a perfectly reasonable reasoning for a vote. That's my entire point, it can be reasonable interpreted to mean "do whatever". And even if Yrs took the vote verbatim instead of interpreting it either positively or negatively, it would again be reasonable for Ice Lady to interpret this as a "do whatever".

Do I think she'll actually fight us? No, she's clearly interested in us. I don't think she wants to ruin that outright. I do think the wording is needlessly flippant though.

And for the record, the other option in the running isn't my preferred wording either (that would be the write in I posted). It's just the one I think is slightly less bad than this one.
 
Like, "act aloof and confident" would be a perfectly reasonable reasoning for a vote. That's my entire point, it can be reasonable interpreted to mean "do whatever"
Trying to use words to describe what is conveyed by music is kind of... weird, you know?

Like, Ling Qi is not typing this from a million miles away, she's literally using music to convey "this set of ideas".

I dunno, I feel like saying "this phrase can be interpreted this way" when you are going to put it through at least two layers of translation is a bit... Frankly, I bet I could take literally any phrasing you wanna throw out and find a way to say "this means we die now" with it once you start talking about trying to predict how those two layers of translation are going to affect things. Like, straight up, if I didn't follow basically everything Yrs has written over the last half decade I wouldn't be voting at all because if I knew nothing about Yrs this would feel like Path of Civilization's Lightning Rounds, a way for the QM to railroad a result they want while pretending to let the questers influence things.

Basically, either you can take it on faith that Yrs doesn't seek out every possible opportunity to screw their Questers over or you should not be voting here.
 
Alectai created the vote, Alectai's word on what it means is the only word that counts
Here is what Alectai said about it:
We show no weakness, we actually answer her question, and tosses the ball back in her court in a context that would be understood presuming the cultural drift isn't too out of hand.
It's why I the idea is to use this write-in to probe. We don't have the time or ability to give a more nuanced answer, so a simple one that invites her to... Do as she sees fit is unlikely to cause her to shift from the current posture of 'Let's see how this plays out, without any more than casual support' to 'I got what I want TIME TO KILL'.
It is explicitly not "help us out." It is explicitly an invitation for her to do what she wants.

Now, I don't think that's a fatal flaw, or I wouldn't be approval voting it. But you're really heated about this and accusing everyone who disagrees with you of arguing in bad faith, even when they say the same thing that Alectai said when he set up the vote. So maybe you should step away from the thread for a bit?
 
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by GlassMask on Jul 30, 2020 at 4:40 PM, finished with 755 posts and 185 votes.
 
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