Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Okay, look, since people seem to think that the second part of the write-in is garbage, would people be willing to go with it if I changed the wording to more encourage support?

EDIT: Wait, there's no time for that and no way to do it gracefully.
 
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Why?

Most of the supposed "drawbacks" have been from people making stuff up about how this is the worst option ever when we are giving the Ice Witch a hell of a lot more reason to help us (we're connected to another native Ice Witch) than the other option does

I'm less sure that it fits Ling Qi's character than the other option due to the use of "performance." After reading the discussion, I'm also not sure Ling Qi would be willing to immediately reveal who Zeqing is here, though there are some decent arguments that she would. We're also not sure how much we can say in the time we have. I also don't like the fact that we're ultimately leaving the action the ice woman takes entirely up to her in the write-in. I understand the reasoning behind this, but it feels like a cop-out to me. We don't know how much telling her about her connection with Zeqing would help, especially if she's expecting something else. It's true that we would be able to immediately probe her response with this option, but I'm not sure this will be worthwhile given we've already seen her do things like not attack Zhengui, presumably out of consideration for us. I'm pretty sure neither option will come close to disaster, and I don't think either option will differ too much in practice, but I'm having an easier time arguing for asking for help in my mind.
 
Seriously, time is short, we were fractions of seconds ago self defending against her with near everything we can because somehow this glacier waif snuck up on us. More stealthy than us and Sixiang didn't even say a word.
 
Okay, look, since people seem to think that the second part of the write-in is garbage, would people be willing to go with it if I changed the wording to more encourage support?

EDIT: Wait, there's no time for that and no way to do it gracefully.

For what it's worth that probably would've pushed me from 'nay' to 'good enough.' I happen to like the introduction part.
 
And she'll keep supposing, so long as we do not give her a reason not to suppose something worse by fumbling it because we only have time for one sentence and no idea what she's supposing nor time to correct any misunderstandings that ensue.

Why would she keep supposing in light of the fact that we are explicitly not telling her anything until after she has already committed to supporting us? That would be setting off warning bells in my head, speaking personally.
 
Gives free info without leveraging it. Way too much info for a sampler to get her to come back for more and may definitively answer that we're not spiritblooded like her, thus little to no incentive to do anything further.
 
What we know is this ice lady said something that was probably about "lineage" and something about "help" while gesturing at the rock, and deferring to our body language preference that Zhengui not be smacked with iron scepters. There's a lot of ways to take that, but mostly very little we can do about it with the time available.

The big issue with attempting to clarify our relationship with Zeqing/ice lady-ness is we don't know how this woman will take our answers. We're ignorant to her cultural conception of "lineage". It's possible that giving this information makes her less inclined to help or respect us or whatever it is she's actually in our face doing. We just don't know.

The sub issue with the write-in is that it's taking the above risk, but it isn't trying to do anything concrete with it. The combination of giving out an answer to her assumed question for free, then giving a shrug about how she reacts or what she chooses to do just isn't a very engaging approach between the two characters. It's removing hooks (curiosity) and not adding new ones(requests or direction from Ling Qi).

It's kind of just a gamble that she likes what we have to say and decides to take the initiative on helping us out. That's more uncertain in my mind than maintaining and leveraging our ~mystery~, which we've seen her value to some degree or there wouldn't be this conversation in the first place, while pushing her to engage in our favor.

I like the Zeqing name stuff in terms of flavour, but how it's actually being used is pretty questionable, because it's not actually being used. It's just there for the sake of it. The write-in's arguably too bold and too passive at the same time.

Edit: Also, we could just play Zeqing Names at her, like, later? When talking later, when there's time to actually explain things.
 
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Abeo sums up why I don't like the write in very nicely. It tries to be cute by name-dropping Zeqing, but it doesn't try to do anything by giving the Ice Lady that info, it just punts the initiative back to the her.

IC, the knowledge of where LQ got her Ice/End techniques is clearly valuable enough to this lady that she's trying to have a chat in the middle of a fight. Why is LQ giving it away for free?

OC, the Ice Lady is clearly a character that's interesting to the thread. Why are we not trying to create narrative hooks so that yrs can bring her into the story? LQ owing her a favour is a good thing: if her request is reasonable, we get an excuse for more interaction. If it's unreasonable, LQ just tells the "barbarian" to go away, and the Sect (and its army) will support her.

Basically, I'd rather have an option that tries to create engagement with this character, rather then just giving her what it seems she wants and passively letting yrs figure what, if anything, happens next. Hell, I'd rather just straight up tell her to leave, because at least that doesn't give away potentially valuable info.
 
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sigh

I really, really, really, really, really wish people brought any of these concerns up back when I posted it, instead of on the relative cusp of the lock.

Because now I can't fix it and I have to deal with the next few hours of people kicking me in the ribs constantly. That I might as well have never bothered because one part of my write-in wasn't flawless.
 
Abeo sums up why I don't like the write in very nicely. It tries to be cute by name-dropping Zeqing, but it doesn't try to do anything by giving the Ice Lady that info, it just punts the initiative back to the her.

IC, the knowledge of where LQ got her Ice/End techniques is clearly valuable enough to this lady that she's trying to have a chat in the middle of a fight. Why is LQ giving it away for free?

OC, the Ice Lady is clearly a character that's interesting to the thread. Why are we not trying to create narrative hooks so that yrs can bring her into the story? LQ owing her a favour is a good thing: if her request is reasonable, we get an excuse for more interaction. If it's unreasonable, LQ just tells the "barbarian" to go away, and the Sect (and its army) will support her.

Basically, I'd rather have an option that tries to create engagement with this character, rather then just giving her what it seems she wants and passively letting yrs figure what, if anything, happens next.
.....because nothing about the write-in stops her wanting to talk with us afterwards that wouldn't also apply to the "we'll talk later AFTER you help me" vote as well
 
Uncharitable readings aside, the difference between the leading votes is that the write in provides Zeqing's Name before asking for help instead of asking on the back of the curiosity with a promise to talk later.

Both approaches have merit, and indeed I'm voting for both because I think each leads in a slightly different but equally interesting direction.

I definitely disagree we'd be giving an answer for free; it's a gamble on the likelihood for help with vs without the added info, which just doesn't seem likely to be worse with. Plus, between Sincere Negotiator and high Manip I really don't expect it to backfire.
 
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by Huo Yuhao on Jul 30, 2020 at 2:54 PM, finished with 711 posts and 182 votes.
 
Okay, look, since people seem to think that the second part of the write-in is garbage, would people be willing to go with it if I changed the wording to more encourage support?

EDIT: Wait, there's no time for that and no way to do it gracefully.
I liked the introduction, since it's trying to interface with what she's saying even if it's possible she's trying to say that the Stone is hers because of her lineage or something. It's not like I can hold the chunibyo nature of it against you, that's just how things go when your dealing with [Concepts] and [People Who's Hair Sparkles Like The Night Sky].

I'm not a fan of the last bit though, very overwrought in a way Ling Qi in particular and no one worth immitiating seems to speak in this quest. There's just not a lot of "spits blood" and "you cannot see Mount Tai!".
Also, when talking to people who don't speak your language or who won't understand you well its generally better to go for clear, obvious speech. Because you can't control, or even anticipate, what they'll understand so you have be extra clear on what you're putting out there.
A clear request for aid or even temporary neutrality would have had my vote.


But that's just me. :V

Edit: I think the big thing for me is the way "performance" flavors the intent of the write in. Ling Qi doesn't think of combat as a performance, she doesn't think of fighting for her life, or ZhenGui, or CRX as a performance, she's fighting with music, but she isn't performing in that way. Not even now, when she's going on this mission largely to present an image of strength.
But if we vote for her to say that, then it seems she does, or she's pretending to think that way. Both aren't things I'd support.
A Ling Qi who thinks combat is a performance is dramatically out of touch with her family and bonds, like ZhenGui who certainly doesn't think this is anything but serious life or death combat.
A Ling Qi who'd pretending is giving up the benefits of her sincerity specialty and the characterization which comes with it.
It's just not a reading of her character that I can support.
 
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sigh

I really, really, really, really, really wish people brought any of these concerns up back when I posted it, instead of on the relative cusp of the lock.

Because now I can't fix it and I have to deal with the next few hours of people kicking me in the ribs constantly. That I might as well have never bothered because one part of my write-in wasn't flawless.

Is that so.

Okay. This bugs me more than a little, but it's good to know what Yrs was trying to get at with the requirement.

Now that's it's actually eligible, I guess I may as well get to my problem with the content. There was a similar sort of vote before, but this one's actually getting traction, so...



I'm assuming, through this, that the purpose is to actually try and pursue this plotline, not just to solve the immediate issue.

1) I'm pretty sure answering her question now is actually a very bad idea.

We don't know why she's asking. More importantly, we don't have time to ask why, and the current circumstances mean that Ling Qi only has access to pretty low-fidelity communication. We can be pretty sure that she'll communicate the essence of her teacher with music, but that may not actually be helpful to pursue this long-term: if her question is answered, and things get sufficiently messy after this, then she has more reason to decide to cut her losses and leave it be. And that's assuming that answering the mystery doesn't cause her to enter onto the enemy's side for whatever reason, which is far from certain!

Any later meeting can have better means of communication, and won't be happening mid-battle. (And remember how we're trying to mod an art for communication now? Better understanding across languages is definitely a possible result!) Sure, if we meet her separately then she may decide "okay, not what I'm looking for" and still leave, but she'll have invested more into the question: she'll have more reason to try and get something out of it, to make sure the effort wasn't wasted. And while some of the "something"s she could "get out of it" might end badly for Ling Qi, I expect all of those somethings to be interesting, and isn't that what we're really here for?

2) "performance" worries me.

2a) It moves this into a more Dreaming Moon context. Appropriate for Ling Qi! But we know nothing of them or how they relate to the Moons, or to the Moon in general. If we want her to stay interested in Ling Qi, you want to focus on common ground, not differentiate. (Yes, she's seen us use the Arts, but it's about priorities.)

2b) More than that, it's not Imperials who are mostly dying here. Yes, "outsiders to the Empire" aren't one homogeneous group--but if you asked the lady who she currently relates to more, it's probably not the Imperials. That might change, but it hasn't changed yet. Doing anything that makes Ling Qi look indifferent to the people dying is not great.

3) All other things being equal, I'd really prefer Ling Qi at least suggest the lady help. Sure, it might incur some small obligation, but as pointed out back in the Xuan Shi vote a while back, having a small obligation can be helpful to build a connection--and we're not working on fairy rules, Ling Qi can definitely say no if she tries to ask for too much! (Because I assume that Ling Qi isn't going to meet her alone in the near future, like some idiot in a horror movie.) More than that, having a high Green decide to work with the enemy is Not Great, and ends up again looking callous, because if she fights us then additional people are definitely going to die.

All in all, I don't think this write-in option is good. I would actively spend my vote against it if I could.

Because I see everything Abeo and Zith mentioned in this post from yesterday.

I really, really, really, really, really any, huh.
 
okay, I missed that.

So I guess I can add blindness and rank stupidity to my list of faults.

i'm just going to go take a nap or something before this depression spiral boils up into me trying to bash my brains out. just go vote where you want because i clearly can't be trusted to think.
 
Uncharitable readings aside, the difference between the leading votes is that the write in provides Zeqing's Name before asking for help instead of asking on the back of the curiosity with a promise to talk later.

Both approaches have merit, and indeed I'm voting for both because I think each leads in a slightly different but equally interesting direction.

I definitely disagree we'd be giving an answer for free; it's a gamble on the likelihood for help with vs without the added info, which just doesn't seem likely to be worse with. Plus, between Sincere Negotiator and high Manip I really don't expect it to backfire.
In terms of Sincere Negotiator's themes and narrative, I actually come down on not really liking the write-in. Here's the passage of us unlocking the skill:
It was a bluff, Guan Zhi could not afford to fight here… but it wasn't a lie, it was merely an omission. It was not her fault that the creature lacked that piece of context. In that way, she could be wholly sincere and yet not convey the fullness of truth.

In her thoughts a minor conflict between her insights and duties seemed to click.

Speech Skill evolves
Sincere Negotiator- Honesty is not naivety and sincerity does not mean showing your whole hand. A skill to speak and negotiate with honest intent while maintaining your advantages.

I can't describe the write-in as "maintaining our advantages" when we don't understand the consequences of the information given out. It's not even a calculated gamble, because it's not asking for anything in return for the information. It arguably coyly depends on the ice lady liking our answer enough to independently decide to do what we want- but that's absent from the text of the write-in itself, as is what we want her to do in the first place.

A big issue with the vote is it could use more direction.
 
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More broadly, the way yrs runs this quest is kinda bad for write ins. Most quests that do write ins well tend to have a lot of author engagement during the voting phase to help ensure that the players are making decisions based on the full in-universe knowledge the character has, including facts and understandings that don't make it into the updates.

But that's not how yrs rolls, and that's fine because he's still found a way to tell an interactive story very well. And it's not like the system he uses doesn't have advantages. The way he gives us a few options that make sense to LQ has really helped to build her up as a strong character by preventing the wildly erratic behaviour that tends to plague quest protagonists.

Based on how this vote has gone, and how the Shenhua introduction vote went last thread, I'd honestly prefer if yrs stuck to his current "no write ins" policy. I like the strong characters it's created, and I personally feel that between his strong world building and the way he doesn't tend to say much during votes, write ins don't work very well in this quest.
 
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No it wouldn't because that's a stupid malicious reading of the vote.

I mean, this is literally how I interpreted the wording until a couple of pages back when people started mentioning that it was actually about centering Ling Qi in the performance. This is not a malicious reading, this is a very natural reading of the wording.

EDIT: Like, if you want the help-centric wording, why put "the performance" instead of "my performance" there in the first place.
 
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