Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

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Why are we telling someone of unsure hostility to "do as she sees fit"?

I am pretty sure on a narrative level, Snow lady will probably do something net-neutral or beneficial to us (a.k.a I don't think there is that much difference in the two leading votes), but "do as she sees fit" is very silly phrase to use when asking someone to stay non-hostile.
 
Why are we telling someone of unsure hostility to "do as she sees fit"?

I am pretty sure on a narrative level, Snow lady will probably do something net-neutral or beneficial to us (a.k.a I don't think there is that much difference in the two leading votes), but "do as she sees fit" is very silly phrase to use when asking someone to stay non-hostile.

The intent is to ask for non-interference or help, without actually asking. So we don't owe her browny points. So yes, it's rather awkward in this regard, too.
 
Again, that is why we clarify the bargain using our music. If Else expects more from us - like for example to hand over Hanyi, then we will simply decline. It's not like we're signing a contract that will be enforced by outside forces.
The problem here is that music is a one way street and we dont know if that good faith would be reciprocated. Moreover, not only do social combat Arts exist, this is a diplomatic summit she knowingly went to so she would absolutely have such things equipped.

And such exotic effects are entirely within the purview of High Green cultivators with formed Domains.

Your optimism and my caution are equally based on nonexistant evidence to the contrary. I simply have a healthier respect for the risks we're taking.

She approached us. She firmly established that she wasn't hostile. Even if we disregard the Lineage+Aid sentence she's already shown herself capable of foreign diplomacy, of reading us when she almost maced Zhengui, of communicating that she wants to talk. She's already shown that she isn't completely alien or uncomprehending of us.
She recognized Zeqings influence, who you may have forgotten, is so alien to the normal human mindset that the very act of teaching Ling Qi and helping Hanyi grow killed her because she denied her instincts to eat them both

That is where Not!Elsa saw kinship

Where she recognized something similar to herself.
 
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The problem here is that music is a one way street and we dont know if that good faith would be reciprocated. Moreover, not only do social combat Arts exist, this is a diplomatic summit she knowingly went to so she would absolutely have such things equipped.

And such exotic effects are entirely within the purview of High Green cultivators with formed Domains.

Your optimism and my caution are equally based on nonexistant evidence to the contrary. I simply have a healthier respect for the risks we're taking.

Well, yes, we can't control Elsa's actions. If she uses this whole setup to execute an ambush/kidnapping, then all the caution will be validated. But.. I think if that's the reason for the caution Ling Qi should just book it.

Regarding the exotic effects? Laws and such? That's the domain of shen. Yan Renshu used his contracts, yes, but they were complicated and difficult. According to Sima Jiao not worth the effort. So no, I'm not worried about being hit by a 'Binding Oath' tech by a mere Green. There's plenty of evidence to support this.
 
Regarding the exotic effects? Laws and such? That's the domain of shen. Yan Renshu used his contracts, yes, but they were complicated and difficult. According to Sima Jiao not worth the effort. So no, I'm not worried about being hit by a 'Binding Oath' tech by a mere Green. There's plenty of evidence to support this
Yan Renshu had two or three legitimate contracts of such a nature at Green 1 or Green 2. It's what kept his entire scam running, and their primary limitation was distance.

And we know what the gulf between individual stages of Green can look like, Ling Qis entire build is predicated on abusing it for sustainability

Not!Elsa only needs the ability to make one such agreement binding and that's it.

If you have evidence to the contrary, then I'd like to see it
 
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Yan Renshu had two or three legitimate contracts of such a nature at Green 1 or Green 2. It's what kept his entire scam running, and their primary limitation was distance.

And we know what the gulf between individual stages of Green can look like, Ling Qis entire build is predicated on abusing it for sustainability

Not!Elsa only needs the ability to make one such agreement binding and that's it.

If you have evidence to the contrary, then I'd like to see it

My evidence is, again, Sima Jiao's word that mind-controlling a cultivator is frikken hard and generally not worth it. Yan Renshu used a written contract with plenty of setup, so the instance we've seen which could be construed as 'Binding Oath' wasn't just mediated by some flimsy exchange of words.

But sure, no conclusive evidence.

But seriously, are you actually arguing Elsa might mind-whammy us, if we were more specific in asking for help? That would be such a narrative gotcha, I'd suspect someone other than Yrs had written the update.
 
My evidence is, again, Sima Jiao's word that mind-controlling a cultivator is frikken hard and generally not worth it. Yan Renshu used a written contract with plenty of setup, so the instance we've seen which could be construed as 'Binding Oath' wasn't just mediated by some flimsy exchange of words.
I never said mind control was the threat

I literally said an obligation that we did not want to be stuck holding the bag to from the very beginning. Your counterarguments have been about how that couldnt happen, not what form they would be limited to iirc

Let's not play those kinds of games, if you could

But sure, no conclusive evidence.
And if there is to be any such Art, itd be a Social Combat one, and if there were any situation where you would be expected to bring along such an Art itd be a diplomatic summit.

I'm not saying I'm definitely right

I'm saying its patently absurd to blindly take that risk under these circumstances


But seriously, are you actually arguing Elsa might mind-whammy us, if we were more specific in asking for help? That would be such a narrative gotcha, I'd suspect someone other than Yrs had written the update.
Please dont ask me if I'm making an argument I've never made even if you're just doing it rhetorically

You've been replying to my posts this entire time, you can tell what I've been saying. Getting scammed by a loan shark.isnt mind control

It's just being stuck in a one-sided contract that you cant get out of. Theres a pretty distinct difference.
 
Yan Renshu had two or three legitimate contracts of such a nature at Green 1 or Green 2. It's what kept his entire scam running, and their primary limitation was distance.

And we know what the gulf between individual stages of Green can look like, Ling Qis entire build is predicated on abusing it for sustainability

Not!Elsa only needs the ability to make one such agreement binding and that's it.

If you have evidence to the contrary, then I'd like to see it
I am going to be honest. This is the most ridiculous argument I have heard in a long time. There is no evidence to show that Ice witch can do that. There is no evidence that it only takes words to create a binding contract.

And even in the most extreme fearmongering sense it was true we could just have an elder break it for us. The sect will not permit a barb to have a binding contract on one of it's members. How bad would that look for the sect.

No, this argument is ridiculous.
 
I am going to be honest. This is the most ridiculous argument I have heard in a long time. There is no evidence to show that Ice witch can do that. There is no evidence that it only takes words to create a binding contract.

And even in the most extreme fearmongering sense it was true we could just have an elder break it for us. The sect will not permit a barb to have a binding contract on one of it's members. How bad would that look for the sect.

No, this argument is ridiculous.
It's a worst case scenario, and Yrsillar has had to directly warn us off making similar assumptions

Like

On some level you need to remember that Ice Women and their derivatives are extremely dangerous, and treating with them should be done with an abundance of caution because even if they have the best of intentions That doesn't mean that those intentions are good for us

I keep saying it's only possible, then folks kept demanding I justify it and now here we are:

That we're at the point where all you can do is dismiss it as patent absurdity is bearing On the fact that our lack of knowledge enables such absurdity to be possible in the first place
 
Yeah, I'm done here. Elsa having a 'Binding Oath' tech is just ludicrous in my opinion. Any 'contract' we make will only be as binding as Ling Qi lets it be - and as much as we'll even be allowed to act on it.

There are good reasons not to ask for aid, but these are not it.
 
Yeah, I'm done here. Elsa having a 'Binding Oath' tech is just ludicrous in my opinion. Any 'contract' we make will only be as binding as Ling Qi lets it be - and as much as we'll even be allowed to act on it.

There are good reasons not to ask for aid, but these are not it.
Then don't force.me.to monofocus on it.

Engage me on my other arguments instead of trying to pigeonhole me to the point you literally cannot.prove this absurd worst case scenario wrong

Its nakedly a.worst case scenario, and you can't even dismiss it!

What of the other countless, significantly more.plausible dangers then?

You just don't know. And neither do I.
 
Zeqing loved Ling Qi and showing her love included throwing her into a Blizzard with the "swim or sink"-instruction.

Like she said she would be disappointed if Ling Qi died, but Qi would still be dead.

Ice Princess has very closely cultivated to that, she likely has possessive tendencies as well.
 
[X] Tell her to help if she's so interested in you, you can talk later.

Ah yes, "I didn't technically ask for you assistance so I'm not obligated to return the favor and you can't feel bad because exacts words and the rules say so!"
Truly the peak of a four year olds interpersonal skills.

How about we ask for help if we want help, you know, like a functional human being.
 
It's a worst case scenario, and Yrsillar has had to directly warn us off making similar assumptions

Like

On some level you need to remember that Ice Women and their derivatives are extremely dangerous, and treating with them should be done with an abundance of caution because even if they have the best of intentions That doesn't mean that those intentions are good for us

I keep saying it's only possible, then folks kept demanding I justify it and now here we are:

That we're at the point where all you can do is dismiss it as patent absurdity is bearing On the fact that our lack of knowledge enables such absurdity to be possible in the first place
It's fine to be cautious. It's not fine to argue in bad faith and that is what I think you are doing. Both votes have good intentions, but you have dismissed all of the help votes and then bully people into arguing with you about these extreme examples you create. You created the scenario so you have to convince us why we should take it seriously which you haven't done. Instead you are screaming about other people trying to force you to justify it when you created it. If you want us to take it seriously you have to provide evidence as to why.
Then don't force.me.to monofocus on it.

Engage me on my other arguments instead of trying to pigeonhole me to the point you literally cannot.prove this absurd worst case scenario wrong

Its nakedly a.worst case scenario, and you can't even dismiss it!

What of the other countless, significantly more.plausible dangers then?
Your the one pigeonholing people into arguments. You have dismissed all the other arguments and are trying to force people into the extreme examples.
 
Its nakedly a.worst case scenario, and you can't even dismiss it!

Oh, please, the worst-case scenario should also include that she's secretly a Cyan+ cultivator. We've seen people hiding their realm (Sima Jiao, again), so it could totally be true! Also the volcano might erupt.

Sorry, but ... we can't really act on such things. Of course, I can't dismiss any such scenarios! I've been harping on about this because it's presented as an argument, which I don't think it really is.

Zeqing loved Ling Qi and showing her love included throwing her into a Blizzard with the "swim or sink"-instruction.

Like she said she would be disappointed if Ling Qi died, but Qi would still be dead.

Ice Princess has very closely cultivated to that, she likely has possessive tendencies as well.

Now this is a good point. Ice Lady's idea of aid might be rather double-edged. But she might still act like this with the 'do what you want' option, though. So I think this is rather an argument for the 'leave' options.
 
Your the one pigeonholing people into arguments. You have dismissed all the other arguments and are trying to force people into the extreme examples.
No I'm not?

I'm the one providing worst case scenarios at other peoples behest for what could possibly go.wrong

Where have I done anything like that? Because if I have, I genuinely do not remember it. All I've done is 1) Point out the Sect cant be trusted to treat a barbarian with a soft hand (and cited examples of why that's a real.concern) and 2) Pointed out that people have no idea what this woman is thinking outside curiosity and a dislike for the Shishigui.

Because our primary example of how such types of individuals think is literally Zeqing, and it's a good idea to recall just how many times Ling qi came close to dying while under her tutelage under these circumstances so we can stop being blindly optimistic.


It's not fine to argue in bad faith and that is what I think you are doing. Both votes have good intentions, but you have dismissed all of the help votes and then bully people into arguing with you about these extreme examples you create
...How am I bullying them.

Please, do tell.

Now this is a good point. Ice Lady's idea of aid might be rather double-edged. But she might still act like this with the 'do what you want' option, though. So I think this is rather an argument for the 'leave' options.

I'm glad you think so, since I've been making this very argument for two days now
Dont attribute simplicity to alien cultures in this setting

Stuff like this is what lead to that weird push to make Ling Qi Meizhens handmaiden or try to get Zeqing to adopt Ling Qi way back when

How many times do we need to get beaten over the head that Ling Qis standards and assumptions are not shared by her surroundings before the lesson finally sticks?

...I used the being eaten as an example of how badly Ling Qi can misread ice people

Especially heavily domesticated types like Zeqing who've had centuries to adapt and acclimate to Imperial culture and get bound by her agreements to the Sect

Assuming you have a read on her to think that asking for help we dont need without strings attached is awful because you genuinely have no idea what you're doing

We need her out of the blast zone, not potentially sticking us in a Fae-like bargain
First and most recent examples of which. Along with a bunch of other such posts when I was arguing with Glassskull
 
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...How am I bullying them.

Please, do tell.
Dont put words in my mouth, pickle

You wont like what happens when you do
Well... Here's one where you are literally threatening someone. The vast majority of your posts these last few votes feel like you're screaming at someone and are truly unpleasant to read. Perhaps it's cultural barrier, but to me you have been consistently condescending and filled with vitriol towards anyone that has posted reasonable objections and even worse towards those that had unreasonable objections. You have been very very nasty these last few days.
 
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Well... Here's one where you are literally threatening someone
And then I took it up.with him in private and resolved the matter amicably with him rather than leaving it to fester in the thread as a potential misunderstanding.

You should know that I take good faith arguing very seriously, and threatening to respond to a perceived insult isnt bullying its like...

Literally defensive behavior from being offended?

So thanks for taking that out of context while preaching about good faith, I guess. Really proved your case there.
 
And then I took it up.with him in private and resolved the matter amicably with him rather than leaving it to fester in the thread.

You should know that I take good faith arguing very seriously, and threatening to respond to a perceived insult isnt bullying its like...

Literally defensive behavior from being offended?

So thanks for taking that out of context while preaching about good faith, I guess. Really proved your case there.
Here is another example of you being condescending. You are also using a strawman argument here. Singling out that one specific example and claiming that you already patched it up, which I should say is something bullies say all the time, 'We're pals now', without engaging the meat of the argument about your uncalled for aggressive tone and condensation. To me this reply is just another example of bad faith argument, just about your very unpleasant attitude instead of the vote.
 
Here is another example of you being condescending. You are also using a strawman argument here. Singling out that one specific example and claiming that you already patched it up, which I should say is something bullies say all the time, 'We're pals now', without engaging the meat of the argument about your uncalled for aggressive tone and condensation. To me this reply is just another example of bad faith argument, just about your very unpleasant attitude instead of the vote.
So let me see if I understand this correctly:

Because you dont like my behavior and thus cast all my actions under suspicion, that means I'm inherently committing bad faith argumentation no matter what because you've already decided that I'm deceiving or misleading you?

So even if pickle comes here and backs up my claims, you're going to...what, just say he's developed some kind of online Stockholm's derivative or something? Because I just browbeat him that hard or whatever?

Setting aside that if you're presenting an argument about someones motivations, pointing out that you're flat out wrong and.thus your entire argument is specious isnt a strawman

It's a straight up refutation of.an argument you actually made.

It is - by definition in fact - not a strawman
 
Now this is a good point. Ice Lady's idea of aid might be rather double-edged. But she might still act like this with the 'do what you want' option, though. So I think this is rather an argument for the 'leave' options.

I'm glad you think so, since I've been making this very argument for two days now

(examples)

First and most recent examples of which. Along with a bunch of other such posts when I was arguing with Glassskull

Except that the write-in, aka the 'do what you want' option doesn't address the issue. It's just wishy-washy about it. If Elsa's aid is seen as problematic, then the vote should be for one of the 'leave' options.

Ah yes, "I didn't technically ask for you assistance so I'm not obligated to return the favor and you can't feel bad because exacts words and the rules say so!"
Truly the peak of a four year olds interpersonal skills.

Beautifully explained here.
 
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