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Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
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Juugo said:
Only you @TehChron could possibly see Zhengui, who held back Guan Zhi, a Cyan realm cultivator, and declared with her throw of Zhengui that he is too much of a hassle to pound into the ground and personally see that as

I am impressed with your level of expectations on precious, but how about you tone it down a bit? We all know Zhengui is a slow learner and I personally prefer a slow student who improves instead of a small and fading star. Let him learn at his pace, he will surprise you yet, I am sure!
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...I shouldnt have to end sentences with a /s to make me being facetious obvious but you're making me question whether or not that's the case with that sarcastic dig of yours

I'm undecided on if you failed to pick up on the obvious joke or not while writing that post out, tbh
 
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Apocalyptic Loon said:
Neglecting to notify her friend of her visit beforehand would not usually be an issue, Meihzen lived a structured life, and Ling Qi knew the other girl's schedule well enough from their time living together.
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Apocalyptic Loon said:
Annoyingly enough, she found herself irritated at the missed opportunity, and even more irritated at the slight sting of jealousy that had burrowed into her gut.
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Apocalyptic Loon said:
'This was not home.' she thought with a momentary pang of melancholy.
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Not entirely sure on how you want this formatted.

Apocalyptic Loon said:
But, like a sprinter seeing the finish line, a new train of thought surged forward, finding its second wind.
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Added comma.

Apocalyptic Loon said:
She watched the fat koi swim careless loops around their pond; whose job was it to make sure they were fed?
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Apocalyptic Loon said:
Her physical senses alone were enough to hear the pounding heart of the mortal, she could even see each individual pore along the woman's prematurely aged face.
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TehChron said:
...I shouldnt have to end sentences with a /s to make me being facetious obvious but you're making me question whether or not that's the case with that sarcastic dig of yours

I'm undecided on if you failed to pick up on the obvious joke or not while writing that post out, tbh
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I genuinely failed to pick up the joke in your comment. Also, since you tend to be one of the more analytical participants in any quest I simply assumed you were serious. In my limited experience, when you joke post, you tend to devote a whole post to it and not just the last sentence.
In summary, I was wrong then, good to know.
 
Liliet said:
The thing is, the relationship between CRX and Ling Qi is asymmetrical. In this setting the vassals are weaker and their lieges are stronger. It's the job of the liege to do the protection and it's the job of the vassal to carry out missions they're given. Sure, Ling Qi is pretty close to CRX in power, but CRX was not raised to see it like that - to her, the thing Ling Qi is supposed to do IS focus on the mission while SHE is the one protecting HER. Even if she gets overwhelmed, we all know the only scenario in which Ling Qi won't back her up then is if she was too tied up by other enemies to manage - and even then her domain will work regardless.

The thing is, it would be badly OOC for Ling Qi to fail CRX in the way you're describing. If the vote option that was chosen seems like it to you, then you're misreading the vote option. That's what people are reacting to, I think: the idea that we've voted for something that can be read by CRX as abandoning her.

It's not. We're right there, and we're choosing a different way to support her (drawing aggro from secondary targets), not running away or hiding.

She can always come to the fortress to turtle up with us if she needs Ling Qi's direct support?

(And where it's not Ling Qi doing the OOC action of Actual Abandonment, it would be highly OOC for Cai "yeah I know what you did at the market and why" Renxiang to feel like it is. Her issues are in the exact opposite direction. She's not Generic Abused Kid, she's got pretty specific personality and hangups)
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TehChron said:
Probably when the resource spigot gets widened again

Besides, hes still at G2

Very disappointing progress tbqh
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I mean, there's a reason I said it would be rooted in a tiny irrational part of Renxiang's mind, that she doesn't have a good handle on because of her (non)emotional trauma and it only more recently starting to grow as her companions have faced challenges and dangers. There's potential for symmetry with another experience we know she went into with a deeply held sense of trust in her companion; meeting failure or setback while your companion is less directly engaged in helping you than you expected, than you yourself had just recently committed yourself to them in this situation, is the kind of thing that can trigger an unfair echo of hurt.

Feelings don't need to be fair, or rational. They don't even need to be obvious to the people experiencing them.

As far as the vote options go, the entire vote can't make sense with this popular reading of the winning vote. Proactive shielding of Renxiang from intrusion by others is strictly incompatible with holding ground at the starstone. If Ling Qi tries to have things both way, she is going to fail at one or both. The only enemies Ling Qi can realistically attempt to keep out of Renxiang's fight are enemies she drives away from the starstone- if an enemy doesn't make an attempt at the starstone in the first place, then they're simply not within range of her principle efforts to be waylaid.

This doesn't mean everything is doomed forever. The tactical implications I'm outlining are just the downsides to the vote chosen; our other path had downsides as well. And if we'd picked that route, I'd sure as heck be going over them!
 
AbeoLogos said:
I mean, there's a reason I said it would be rooted in a tiny irrational part of Renxiang's mind, that she doesn't have a good handle on because of her (non)emotional trauma and it only more recently starting to grow as her companions have faced challenges and dangers. There's potential for symmetry with another experience we know she went into with a deeply held sense of trust in her companion; meeting failure or setback while your companion is less directly engaged in helping you than you expected, than you yourself had just recently committed yourself to them in this situation, is the kind of thing that can trigger an unfair echo of hurt.
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The tiny irrational part of Renxiang's mind doesn't tell her that people should be helping her more than they are, the tiny irrational part of Renxiang's mind tells her that she herself should be doing more, preferably everything, preferably personally, so she doesn't ever need any help at all and no-one ever gets hurt or wants for anything when she's around.

I know it can be more than one thing, but in this situation I'm pretty sure the balance falls towards the possibility of Renxiang having to shut up her internal brain asshole if Ling Qi DID interfere with the duel.

If anything, considering Ren-Ren came here to support and cover Ling Qi in the first place, her turtling up and successfully not-needing-to-be-rescued might just be the necessary option that DOESN'T trigger irrational microresentment of the "please stop making it so hard for me to be the protector" variety.

"Your companion is less directly engaged in helping you than you expected" <= I think this is where the disconnect is. I do not believe Renxiang expects or wants Ling Qi to interfere in what Ling Qi has identified as a duel, presumably not without reason. If she starts actually losing, sure, she'll expect Ling Qi to bail her out at the last moment, but we all know that if that happens Ling Qi WILL do that.

Letting her get battered on her own for as long as she can hold out will factually be psychologically easier on her.

Renxiang's damage, so to speak, is not in being underprotected by subordinates. It's in learning that she needs to prove herself and be perfectly perfect at all times to earn her mother's affection/protection/help. Servants, guards and whatnot she's always had aplenty, she just learned that she wasn't really good enough for them unless she bled herself out to the last tiniest drop.

She'll feel better about giving more than she got, not the other way around, I'm rather confident.
 
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Liliet said:
The tiny irrational part of Renxiang's mind doesn't tell her that people should be helping her more than they are, the tiny irrational part of Renxiang's mind tells her that she herself should be doing more, preferably everything, preferably personally, so she doesn't ever need any help at all and no-one ever gets hurt or wants for anything when she's around.

I know it can be more than one thing, but in this situation I'm pretty sure the balance falls towards the possibility of Renxiang having to shut up her internal brain asshole if Ling Qi DID interfere with the duel.

If anything, considering Ren-Ren came here to support and cover Ling Qi in the first place, her turtling up and successfully not-needing-to-be-rescued might just be the necessary option that DOESN'T trigger irrational microresentment of the "please stop making it so hard for me to be the protector" variety.

"Your companion is less directly engaged in helping you than you expected" <= I think this is where the disconnect is. I do not believe Renxiang expects or wants Ling Qi to interfere in what Ling Qi has identified as a duel, presumably not without reason. If she starts actually losing, sure, she'll expect Ling Qi to bail her out at the last moment, but we all know that if that happens Ling Qi WILL do that.

Letting her get battered on her own for as long as she can hold out will factually be psychologically easier on her.

Renxiang's damage, so to speak, is not in being underprotected by subordinates. It's in learning that she needs to prove herself and be perfectly perfect at all times to earn her mother's affection/protection/help. Servants, guards and whatnot she's always had aplenty, she just learned that she wasn't good enough for them unless she bled herself out to the last tiniest drop.

She'll feel better about giving more than she got, not the other way around, I'm rather confident.
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Hmm, the disconnect is what you think I'm referring to by tiny irrational/emotional part of her, I think. Like, obviously that's not her beep boop duty robot habits, because that's a very large part of her. She also considers it rational and I defer to her there for the sake of communication.

The thing you're talking about where she's happy to bear the weight and responsibility of any situation and cover for and take on risks for her subordinates is exactly what I'm talking about being subverted by the fledgling regrowth of more sensitive corners of her mind. Corners that don't run a cost/benefit analysis. Corners more reminiscent of a little girl excited to meet her mother for the first time. Corners she's so used to not considering herself as having, that any disquiet coming from them would be impossible for her to place.

You're right that Renxiang doesn't really rely on others, not on a personal level. And even when she's relying on others for some or another of her goals, she never really relinquishes a sense of personal responsibility for their success, failure, and general conduct. But the big thing is she's been subtly growing away from that to an extent over the last year, year and a half. She's starting to rely on some others in a more personal capacity, and there were hints of this in the snippet of her perspective we saw just a little while ago. This is raw and unfamiliar territory for her.

All I'm saying is there's potential for her to feel let down, even abandoned, whether fair or not. I consider that a neutral thing- there's a reason I didn't bring it up in the context of advocating for one vote or the other. It's an interesting possible result of where and how the characters are setup on the board right now, but not a convincing reason to choose one move over another.
 
I do see what you're referring to, I think, and I agree it's possible for resentment to momentarily appear if Renxiang gets overwhelmed and Ling Qi physically cannot get to her.

But I guarantee you that it'll get instantly tidewaved by the reflex of guilt. That's what that reflex is FOR: it's for rationalizing why someone she is supposed to be able to rely on, her mother, she cannot, and it generalizes into a global rule automatically. Even if consciously Renxiang knows better, it's still there and is always going to be. It's weathered greater betrayals and gathered power on years of abuse. Remember Ren-Ren cutting her arm with scissors and thinking how it's punishment she earned for not winning better? Yeah, that thing is going to strike back in full force the moment Renxiang registers the TINIEST amount of feeling of entitlement to other people's support, particularly if this time she's wrong about it.

(I imagine, for the sake of sanity, she'll have developed a reflex to suppress that feeling automatically so the tidal wave doesn't come in the first place)

I agree Ren-Ren is growing and recovering and relearning to relax. But her trauma response is still there, and she'll backslide again and again yet, and even at best, centuries into the future, even at the most obvious and blatant betrayals of people she trusted and supported fully, there is going to be a part of her brain whispering that it happened because she wasn't good enough and she never had a right to ask for her trust to be rewarded in the first place.

Of course there's also going to be a conscious reflex of "no actually I need to correct for trauma-based error here" developed over time, and if there are enough ambiguous situations making it a confusing conflict every time resentment might end up developing for whoever triggers that conflict in the first place regardless if the particular situation is ambiguous or not, just out of emotional exhaustion of the struggle.

But I don't think Renxiang is that far along yet, let alone in that situation.

[I do not think that you meant it as vote renegotiation. I just see why people thought it was, if their internal 'this seems harshly OOC' sensors triggered as loudly as mine did. Presuming good faith is a depressingly rare habit on the internet]
 
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Different people have different problems.
I don't believe Renxiang's issues are centered on abandonment issues. She is neither Zhengui nor Hanyi. She's lived a life where she could take people supporting her as a matter of fact, and she has the military knowledge to determine Ling Qi's choice of strategic role is the bait.

Renxiang's issues are more predicated upon worrying over whether she's doing good enough, or whether others are doing too much. She is concerned over the costs others pay for her choices.
She's more likely to have a negative emotional reaction if Ling Qi overcommitted herself and actually got rolled by a bigger and more powerful foe than she could handle, which for all of her advantages, is an actual risk here either way, the G7 could certainly overcome Ling Qi and Zhengui's defenses, so Renxiang duels him instead of deploying her big AoEs.

Granted, she has more reason than that, her AoEs may not be sufficiently discriminate to spare Ling Qi and her spirits, her Light leader arts are known to be inefficient when working to buff a Darkness cultivator and she has doubts about hitting everyone indiscriminately to possibly turn a potential foe into a certain one. But it works as one of the reasons.

Besides, short of Cyan interrupt, I think the main threat to Renxiang would be the Dancers, since Ling Qi has All The Aggro.
 
veekie said:
Different people have different problems.

[...]

Renxiang's issues are more predicated upon worrying over whether she's doing good enough, or whether others are doing too much. She is concerned over the costs others pay for her choices.
She's more likely to have a negative emotional reaction if Ling Qi overcommitted herself and actually got rolled by a bigger and more powerful foe than she could handle, which for all of her advantages, is an actual risk here either way
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This this this this.

Glad to know I'm not the only one seeing it, I kind of improvised that analysis out of the feeling of wrongness of that suggestion and delving into where it came from.
 
FixerUpper said:
In the past half-year or less I have single-handedly killed a quest with my too-enthusiastic criticism, and knowing that this is a terrible thing that means I am not a good critic, I still want to crit this piece. Would you be okay with that? It'll be super mild I promise. I just wanna point out one teeny tiny thing.
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Yeah, absolutely, go ahead. Some of your omakes in the other thread were what led me to finally writing this one. I'd love to get better.
 
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AbeoLogos said:
As far as the vote options go, the entire vote can't make sense with this popular reading of the winning vote. Proactive shielding of Renxiang from intrusion by others is strictly incompatible with holding ground at the starstone. If Ling Qi tries to have things both way, she is going to fail at one or both. The only enemies Ling Qi can realistically attempt to keep out of Renxiang's fight are enemies she drives away from the starstone- if an enemy doesn't make an attempt at the starstone in the first place, then they're simply not within range of her principle efforts to be waylaid.
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Based on what?

She literally has the best mobility on the field right now outside of the Cyans, and has two flavors of teleportation between Dreamstepping and Wind Thief.

Setting aside Zhengui running artillery with his lava spikes.

The Caldera just isnt that big a space to begin with, and the G7 was already within range of Ling Qi when Renxiang stepped in. There's just no reason to believe any of what you just said here
 
TehChron said:
Based on what?

She literally has the best mobility on the field right now outside of the Cyans, and has two flavors of teleportation between Dreamstepping and Wind Thief.

Setting aside Zhengui running artillery with his lava spikes.

The Caldera just isnt that big a space to begin with, and the G7 was already within range of Ling Qi when Renxiang stepped in. There's just no reason to believe any of what you just said here
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I laid it all out in an earlier post, but the quick and dirty apparently I can't help myself.

If we're operating in the space of Renxiang's fight with the G7 shishigui to that degree, then we've joined that fight. We're entering the range of their conflict to use abilities with ranges no greater than those used by the combatants. Bilateral ranging and active interference is equivalent to active engagement. There was a vote to actively engage in Renxiang's fight; we didn't pick it. The option to actively engage in Renxiang's fight involved Ling Qi carrying her spirits with her, because she doesn't feel comfortable with leaving them unattended in this battlespace.

There being a different vote for engaging with that battle and Ling Qi's motives on keeping her spirits close strongly suggest that the fortress vote does not allow Ling Qi to range from her chosen station or interfere with cloud nomad riders beyond those engaging with the position she's limiting herself to. Ling Qi actively ranging from the fortress would defeat the point of there being two votes because it turns the winner into a "do both things but better" option, and conflict with her desire to keep on top of her spirits' safety.

Yrsillar on Discord said:
Yrsillar07/24/2020
its says you bring your spirits
[4:34 PM]
you have your party teleport up
Yrsillar07/24/2020
ling qi wants to keep them close cause this is kind of a clusterfuck
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@yrsillar isn't going to have Ling Qi act counter to her protective instincts in the more conservative tactical choice. It would be extremely incongruous. She's hard opposed to ranging away from them; we won't see that happening unless there's an explicit option for it, at this point.

For the last time, zooming around the battlefield punking nomads trying to approach Renxiang's fight isn't happening. That's not what we voted for. It isn't what the vote could possibly mean in the relevant contexts. Ling Qi's going to be trying to stop nomads who are fleeing her fortress of doom who seem like they're going to attack Renxiang. That's it.
 
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And I think that's you overthinking semantics, Abeo

Its based on you imagining an entirely new context to the fight unsupported by the actual text

You havent actually presented anything real to engage, so how am I supposed to prove you wrong when you've already fallen to confusing fantasy for reality?
 
AbeoLogos said:
As far as the vote options go, the entire vote can't make sense with this popular reading of the winning vote. Proactive shielding of Renxiang from intrusion by others is strictly incompatible with holding ground at the starstone. If Ling Qi tries to have things both way, she is going to fail at one or both. The only enemies Ling Qi can realistically attempt to keep out of Renxiang's fight are enemies she drives away from the starstone- if an enemy doesn't make an attempt at the starstone in the first place, then they're simply not within range of her principle efforts to be waylaid.
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Okay, ignoring your whole musing that "maybe CRX will feel ~betrayed~ because LQ didn't help her oooh", what is this 'popular reading' bullshit? Just because you can't figure out how an update is going to turn out, doesn't mean the majority of the thread suddenly misinterpreted or falsely extrapolated an idea from the voting choices. Getting rid of people who try and get into CRX's fight with the g7 Shishigui is a directly worded aspect of the winning vote.
 
Jensaarai said:
Okay, ignoring your whole musing that "maybe CRX will feel ~betrayed~ because LQ didn't help her oooh", what is this 'popular reading' bullshit? Just because you can't figure out how an update is going to turn out, doesn't mean the majority of the thread suddenly misinterpreted or falsely extrapolated an idea from the voting choices. Getting rid of people who try and get into CRX's fight with the g7 Shishigui is a directly worded aspect of the winning vote.
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It's an awkwardly worded aspect of the winning vote. Yes, Ling Qi is going to try to keep people off of Renxiang's back. However, the context of the other commitments she's making in the fortress vote does not allow her to do so beyond the forces assaulting her defensive position. My track record on figuring out how updates are going to turn out is actually pretty decent.

TehChron said:
And I think that's you overthinking semantics, Abeo

Its based on you imagining an entirely new context to the fight unsupported by the actual text

You havent actually presented anything real to engage, so how am I supposed to prove you wrong when you've already fallen to confusing fantasy for reality?
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I did provide WoG that shows Ling Qi prioritizes sticking close to her spirits. Suggesting that she'll separate from her spirits to interfere with the fight between Renxiang and the shishigui G7 in one choice, when it's explicitly denied as a possibility in the other, doesn't make much sense. There is no sensible reason that Ling Qi would engaged in different threat analysis between the two options on the matter of the distance she keeps from Hanyi and Zhengui.
 
AbeoLogos said:
There is no sensible reason that Ling Qi would engaged in different threat analysis between the two options on the matter of the distance she keeps from Hanyi and Zhengui.
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Because she wouldn't and you just misread the entire situation horribly?

Ling Qi has the capacity to move out of the barricade, hit whomever is trying to interfere with Renxiang, and then drag them back with her to the Starstone courtesy of PLR, all without leaving an opening that can be easily taken advantage of by the other forces available to act against Zhengui and Hanyi.

You're misleading people on the nature of the battle space and attributing a thought process to Ling qi that straight up isnt present in the first place
 
AbeoLogos said:
It's an awkwardly worded aspect of the winning vote. Yes, Ling Qi is going to try to keep people off of Renxiang's back. However, the context of the other commitments she's making in the fortress vote does not allow her to do so beyond the forces assaulting her defensive position. My track record on figuring out how updates are going to turn out is actually pretty decent.


I did provide WoG that shows Ling Qi prioritizes sticking close to her spirits. Suggesting that she'll separate from her spirits to interfere with the fight between Renxiang and the shishigui G7 in one choice, when it's explicitly denied as a possibility in the other, doesn't make much sense. There is no sensible reason that Ling Qi would engaged in different threat analysis between the two options on the matter of the distance she keeps from Hanyi and Zhengui.
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You're arguing two different things here, and trying to treat them as the same. The winning vote is about keeping anyone from interfering with CRX's fight. Ling Qi has pretty good mobility and arts, and can probably pretty easily teleport near someone getting too close, only to draw them back towards Zhengui and the starstone for cleanup.

edit; what tehchron said far more eloquently.
 
Rippling Starless Shroud and Frozen Walls, Homely Keep both extend to Far range so CRX could still benefit some from the effects.
Might even be able to land a lava shot from Zhengui.
 
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Additionally, we have some crazy mobility with Westwind Step and Ephemeral Dreamlit Dancer. We make a great med-evac unit. So as long as we keep an eye on CRX, it should be fine. Hopefully.
 
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