- Location
- the internet
You can express your discontent and disagreement as much as you want without being disrespectful to the QM who worked hard to write this stuff for us. Regardless of your opinion, Yrs still deserves respect.
Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)
- Thread starter yrsillar
- Start date
- Original Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
- Location
- New Brunswick, NJ
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
I think Arkeus's point is that the statement "the arts weren't what we're looking for, and thus this archive dive was a waste" isn't an inherently rude statement to make, not that it's OK to be rude to the QM. "These arts are shittily designed" would be rude, but I don't think that's his contention; rather, that the combination of themes that he wants from an art is absent from the options.
- Location
- Canada
Maybe I missed something, but that's not what I think of when I think of the 'Hearth'. I think of warmth, of support, of comfort and family, and I think of resilience in times of strife. I don't get involved in art discussions because I follow the story for the narrative and not the numbers/power levels, but thematically I can easily see how Zhengui could relate to the concept of the hearth.
The Art fits Ling Qi's view on Zhengui's theme rather than copies Zhengui wholesale. We want to cultivate in harmony with Zhengui, not mimic him. It's like how in our duel with Yu Nuan we described our support of CRX in a way similar to her own philosophy but ultimately different. CRX believed in relentless advance while Ling Qi believed in growth through renewal, but their conflicting views work together in a mutual purpose.
- Location
- Elsewhere
I see them as both being about rebirth from embers. That's...kind of what embers are. They're what's left when something falls, with an implied potential for rebirth.
I mean, look at these:
Sure, you can see that as being about "never dying", but Zhengui's restoration is still restoring from something. His has something of a plant theme, so seeds or deep roots might fit as well as embers, but this isn't about hanging on with the same effect, it's about bringing it back when it falls.
(This is about UHE, not WHR. WHR isn't about embers at all, it's about the difference between inside and outside in the winter. And the difference between allies and enemies, as an extension thereof. I think it's perfect, but it's not at all a Zhengui art.)
- Location
- the internet
He was kinda rude to Yrs on discord and here IMO. Anyway, I feel it had to be said.
- Location
- PA
So...
FLG seems like it's captured alot of people's attention for being a really good Ling Qi/Hanyi art. Here's my beef.
Ling Qi&Hanyi already share elements, and they both do the music thing. Ling Qi uses a Flute while Hanyi Sings, but that's some solid bonding right there.
For me personally, I want to use this art to make sure Zhengui has a representation art amongst our art suite, since even if we ignore the songs learned from Hanyi's mother, there's still the shared darkness and music picked up from other arts. (Not sure if we have water arts beyond the one from Hanyi's mom)
Zhengui on the other hand...
Zhengui is there, and strong, and potentially a unique offering, but he doesn't have much to grab on to. There's TRF, which gave him some wood. There's the Argent Current which might help with Fire but...We don't equip that art, only really getting the boosts from mastering that art, or at least that's how it was before.
We don't have Wood, or Fire, nor do we really offer some art simmilar in function to how Zhengui fights beyond broad strokes that I can tell (Though I might be mistaken here.). So, in the interest of pursuing arts that can help Zhengui, Burning Glade Restoration sounds quite simmilar to that 'Round 2!' skill he picked up recently, or something like that-he got some kind of big explosive-rebirth move and this art, while not necessarily that, ties into the already-demonstrated regenerate from destruction thing he has shown before plenty.
FLG seems like it's captured alot of people's attention for being a really good Ling Qi/Hanyi art. Here's my beef.
Ling Qi&Hanyi already share elements, and they both do the music thing. Ling Qi uses a Flute while Hanyi Sings, but that's some solid bonding right there.
For me personally, I want to use this art to make sure Zhengui has a representation art amongst our art suite, since even if we ignore the songs learned from Hanyi's mother, there's still the shared darkness and music picked up from other arts. (Not sure if we have water arts beyond the one from Hanyi's mom)
Zhengui on the other hand...
Zhengui is there, and strong, and potentially a unique offering, but he doesn't have much to grab on to. There's TRF, which gave him some wood. There's the Argent Current which might help with Fire but...We don't equip that art, only really getting the boosts from mastering that art, or at least that's how it was before.
We don't have Wood, or Fire, nor do we really offer some art simmilar in function to how Zhengui fights beyond broad strokes that I can tell (Though I might be mistaken here.). So, in the interest of pursuing arts that can help Zhengui, Burning Glade Restoration sounds quite simmilar to that 'Round 2!' skill he picked up recently, or something like that-he got some kind of big explosive-rebirth move and this art, while not necessarily that, ties into the already-demonstrated regenerate from destruction thing he has shown before plenty.
The interactions between everyone was pretty nice. It's interesting to see the different ways everyone looks at collaboration between musicians. It's nice to Ling Qi relax with some people other then her usual few friends too.
As for the arts, they all look neat and the first two are my favourites for whatever it's worth. It doesn't matter to me if they match Zhengui's theme and these look to fit Ling Qi aesthetic better.
As for the arts, they all look neat and the first two are my favourites for whatever it's worth. It doesn't matter to me if they match Zhengui's theme and these look to fit Ling Qi aesthetic better.
- Location
- Greece
Friendly reminder that arts seem much weaker at level 1.
Heck, the only arts that seemed usable on level 1 were our first art (due to lack of context), the moon arts (because op) and the thousand ring fortress (because also relatively op, even if less so). Moreover, it has been made clear that, as we move forward, we'll have to modify, and eventually make, our own arts to stay competitive, unless and perhaps even if, we have a really strong being doting on us.
Also, the meanings one can gleam from an art are manyfold, and the person is the prism. Sure , maybe for some it is about embers never dying, but not for all. Sure, some arts can give no meaning whatsoever to certain people, but I think these are close enough to us that we gain something.
"Oh double dipping in keywords resulted in a suboptimal result for the theming you wanted? Whoever would have thought"
- Location
- California
The issue isn't really about how good the arts are, but that they don't exactly match what many of us were looking for, which was a Resist art with a connection to Zhengui. I wouldn't blame anyone in particular for this (the idea I voted for wasn't particularly Zhengui either) and the arts are still usable, just not ideal.
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
... Explosion and rebirth fucking what?
Arkeus, you need to get some chill in your life, you're doing that thing you do where you get an idea in your head and treat it as objective fact and start attacking everyone around you for not getting it.
If the idea was "Get a Zhengui themes Resist art", and more people than you considered this to be a core, then half of the winning options were completely useless, and another one is (In your own words), killing zhengui becuase it's so anti-him apparently.
(Despite the fact that "Explosive destruction and rebirth" is... Uh, let's be honest, it's one take, but is sort of sabotaged by the fact that this is literally one technique of his when his overall theme is generally consumption into growth into destruction into new consumption).
Like, "Hearth" is entirely in theme with Ling Qi unless you're going "She's already dipped hard into cold stuff she shouldn't have a warm heart for the people she likes". Or unless you're going "No action should ever, ever be taken to do anything more than double down on what you did at the start". It literally is the bridge you want by stepping from "Cold Winter Night" to "Warm Hearth" and so forth. Unless you're also saying that we should 'Bridge' to Zhengui by shoving in an Art that has literally no commonalities with us and just expecting that to go perfectly fine?
Arkeus, you need to get some chill in your life, you're doing that thing you do where you get an idea in your head and treat it as objective fact and start attacking everyone around you for not getting it.
If the idea was "Get a Zhengui themes Resist art", and more people than you considered this to be a core, then half of the winning options were completely useless, and another one is (In your own words), killing zhengui becuase it's so anti-him apparently.
(Despite the fact that "Explosive destruction and rebirth" is... Uh, let's be honest, it's one take, but is sort of sabotaged by the fact that this is literally one technique of his when his overall theme is generally consumption into growth into destruction into new consumption).
Like, "Hearth" is entirely in theme with Ling Qi unless you're going "She's already dipped hard into cold stuff she shouldn't have a warm heart for the people she likes". Or unless you're going "No action should ever, ever be taken to do anything more than double down on what you did at the start". It literally is the bridge you want by stepping from "Cold Winter Night" to "Warm Hearth" and so forth. Unless you're also saying that we should 'Bridge' to Zhengui by shoving in an Art that has literally no commonalities with us and just expecting that to go perfectly fine?
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ImperatorV
The Laughing One
- Location
- The Voyaging Realm
Honestly, all of these arts are really good. Burning Glade Restoration is the best fit for Zhengui, but it also doesn't do what we need this art to do, make Ling Qi's death fields and buffs harder to dispel. Winter Hearth Resounding fits LQ's domain really well and does exactly what we need it to do. It also has some connection to Zhengui as a fire art, and because Zhengui is part of LQ's family and the art is all about family. A lot of people have expressed the opinion that Frozen Lake Gleaming is really cool, and I agree that the dispel/attack reflection is a unique and fun gimmick, but it has zero Zhengui in it, which goes against part of our motivations for this. Undying Hearth's Embers is a pretty good Zhengui fit, a bit less so for LQ, but nothing about it really impresses me. I think it's a decent safe pick.
Overall, I'd be happy with any of these except BGR. We were never going to get an exactly perfect art that captured what all of the thread wanted, fit LQ thematically, fit Zhengui thematically, and did everything we needed it to do mechanically. Let's work with what we have, especially since what we have is good in its own right.
My personal favorite is WHR, but if someone has a good argument for UHE I'd be willing to hear it, and I won't object if people think FLG is too cool to pass up.
Overall, I'd be happy with any of these except BGR. We were never going to get an exactly perfect art that captured what all of the thread wanted, fit LQ thematically, fit Zhengui thematically, and did everything we needed it to do mechanically. Let's work with what we have, especially since what we have is good in its own right.
My personal favorite is WHR, but if someone has a good argument for UHE I'd be willing to hear it, and I won't object if people think FLG is too cool to pass up.
- Location
- New Brunswick, NJ
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Moratorium's over, so.
[X] Winter Hearth Resounding (3 Spine, 2 Leg, 2 Lung, 1 Heart)
I'm not sure if this is optimal meridians, but 1) I need to vanish from the Internet soon, want to register my support, and the art and meridian votes aren't separate 2) I'll approval vote all Winter Hearth Resounding plans, since that seems like the best art for my thematic priorities.
EDIT: Approval voting
[X] Undying Hearth's Embers (4 Spine, 2 Leg, 2 Lungs)
[X] Winter Hearth Resounding (3 Spine, 2 Leg, 2 Lung, 1 Heart)
I'm not sure if this is optimal meridians, but 1) I need to vanish from the Internet soon, want to register my support, and the art and meridian votes aren't separate 2) I'll approval vote all Winter Hearth Resounding plans, since that seems like the best art for my thematic priorities.
EDIT: Approval voting
[X] Undying Hearth's Embers (4 Spine, 2 Leg, 2 Lungs)
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- Location
- Staring into the void
[X] Winter Hearth Resounding
Diomedea
A piece of the continent
- Location
- The interblag
- Pronouns
- She/Her
We're still double checking the math, but that's about right for WHR.
Undying Hearth's Embers should be roughly 4 Spine, 2 Leg, 2 Lung
Frozen Lake Gleaming would be 3 Spine, 2 Leg, 2 Lung + 1 TBD.
Though these are all preliminary, because we're still checking things.
- Location
- The Star Kingdom of Manticore
[X] Winter Hearth Resounding (3 Spine, 2 Leg, 2 Lung, 1 Heart)
As travellers end showed having ablative shields on your techs is very very powerful. The fact that those shields are on upkeep instead of having to spin them out with each new art really pushes this art over the top for me. Upkeep techs are some of the best ways for us to leverage our qi pool size. A rank dispells may bypass it but I don't think we have an A rank tech yet and if putting A rank dispells on a may sounds good enough to me. Also if someone is throwing around A rank techs to dispell our stuff then their using massive amounts of qi which feeds into our outlast plan.
Edit:
Also throw in this vote because it does look like an interesting take on the idea.
[X] Undying Hearth's Embers (4 Spine, 2 Leg, 2 Lungs)
@Arkeus
A variation of this argument seems to pop up every art dive. Even putting aside your personal ideas for what we voted for, we have never gotten an art dive that matched our wants/needs exactly. Expecting this one to be different seems extremely unfair.
As travellers end showed having ablative shields on your techs is very very powerful. The fact that those shields are on upkeep instead of having to spin them out with each new art really pushes this art over the top for me. Upkeep techs are some of the best ways for us to leverage our qi pool size. A rank dispells may bypass it but I don't think we have an A rank tech yet and if putting A rank dispells on a may sounds good enough to me. Also if someone is throwing around A rank techs to dispell our stuff then their using massive amounts of qi which feeds into our outlast plan.
Edit:
Also throw in this vote because it does look like an interesting take on the idea.
[X] Undying Hearth's Embers (4 Spine, 2 Leg, 2 Lungs)
@Arkeus
A variation of this argument seems to pop up every art dive. Even putting aside your personal ideas for what we voted for, we have never gotten an art dive that matched our wants/needs exactly. Expecting this one to be different seems extremely unfair.
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- Location
- UK
[X] Winter Hearth Resounding (3 Spine, 2 Leg, 2 Lung, 1 Heart)
I think you seriously diluted the Art focus here - were you all looking for an art that did all three of Resist, Sustain, and Support, to an excellent degree... from the Archive? Oh, wait; you wanted it to do four things. Fear, Surprise, ruthless efficiency - hang on, wrong script. You wanted the Art to do all of Resist, Sustain, Support and be themed around Zhengui?
Why were you looking in the Archive for an Art like that? Such an art is very high-tier indeed - it would probably be on par with LFotWT, Trickster King's Devious Oratory, or Imperturbable Starlit Mantle; a priceless, peerless tool that is all but impossible to find.
If you were 'just' looking for a Zhengui themed Resist Art? You'd almost certainly have problems - Zhengui doesn't have any Resist Techniques to be parallel to. He's got Sustain, Support, and various flavors of Damage, not Resist. He, himself, sows growth, then reaps the flames of their deaths to sow growth once more. He doesn't even attempt to keep the same art going at all; each use is discrete and independent, even in the case of Ashfall + Ashfield Flowering.
At a higher Realm, I have no doubts that we can create an Art like that - a Resist Art centered on Zhengui's themes - but that's a long ways away.
>.< Sorry I missed the discussion on that one - I thought the entire purpose of this delve was solely for something to replace the Resist component of SES; more effective techniques at a higher higher potency. That should've been easy. I didn't bother reading the discussion; maybe I should have, ugh.
---
Two focuses is the most we should expect from the Archive. More than that is diluting the effects on the Art, rendering it less effective; it takes arts on par with SCS, WT, FVM, etc, to manage that - and even then they're better when they're more focused on one or two central themes that happen to do a lot of things or have a lot of steps.
As a result, it feels like WHR is trying too hard. In attempting to do all of those at once it will probably find it's focus diluted, much like HDW. But, much like with HDW, that first technique is so very tempting, doubling the number of dispels required to get through a single Art. The imagery is excellent, however much it feels like the Art is going to trip over itself it mirrors LQ's themes very well.
FLG does Resist and Counterattacks the people who try to dispel our Arts, which is neat. Also has very nice imagery, perfectly in keeping with LQ's extant outward image, and appears to invoke the Reflecting Moon... which may prove to be useful in the longer term, as the Reflecting Moon is also the one of Negotiation and Mediation.
BGR is Sustain + Support. And it does it so wonderfully, too! Qi Regen + Health Regen to allies within range? A technique that mimics TRD, if to a lesser extent, but also provides health + qi regen on a successful block? A pity that it doesn't have the resist we're looking for, otherwise it would be perfect. Elements of this and SES would be exactly what we're looking for - or elements of this and UHE.
UHE appears to be a more focused variation of SES, centered entirely around Resist and Sustain, rather than SES's focus on Resist, Spiritual Defense, and Thorns. If you want a straight Potency replacement for SES, this is your Art, because it does exactly that and provides Qi sustain for each dispelled Technique.
Taking UHE and BGR, mastering them, and merging them in some manner, would likely provide an Art like what you all were looking for. Unfortunately, the soonest all of that would happen is Green 6... we legitimately don't have the time.
I am just salty that we can't explore all of these, bah. They're all cool; that they aren't perfect is to be expected from the Archive.
E: pronouns.
Why were you looking in the Archive for an Art like that? Such an art is very high-tier indeed - it would probably be on par with LFotWT, Trickster King's Devious Oratory, or Imperturbable Starlit Mantle; a priceless, peerless tool that is all but impossible to find.
If you were 'just' looking for a Zhengui themed Resist Art? You'd almost certainly have problems - Zhengui doesn't have any Resist Techniques to be parallel to. He's got Sustain, Support, and various flavors of Damage, not Resist. He, himself, sows growth, then reaps the flames of their deaths to sow growth once more. He doesn't even attempt to keep the same art going at all; each use is discrete and independent, even in the case of Ashfall + Ashfield Flowering.
At a higher Realm, I have no doubts that we can create an Art like that - a Resist Art centered on Zhengui's themes - but that's a long ways away.
>.< Sorry I missed the discussion on that one - I thought the entire purpose of this delve was solely for something to replace the Resist component of SES; more effective techniques at a higher higher potency. That should've been easy. I didn't bother reading the discussion; maybe I should have, ugh.
---
Two focuses is the most we should expect from the Archive. More than that is diluting the effects on the Art, rendering it less effective; it takes arts on par with SCS, WT, FVM, etc, to manage that - and even then they're better when they're more focused on one or two central themes that happen to do a lot of things or have a lot of steps.
As a result, it feels like WHR is trying too hard. In attempting to do all of those at once it will probably find it's focus diluted, much like HDW. But, much like with HDW, that first technique is so very tempting, doubling the number of dispels required to get through a single Art. The imagery is excellent, however much it feels like the Art is going to trip over itself it mirrors LQ's themes very well.
FLG does Resist and Counterattacks the people who try to dispel our Arts, which is neat. Also has very nice imagery, perfectly in keeping with LQ's extant outward image, and appears to invoke the Reflecting Moon... which may prove to be useful in the longer term, as the Reflecting Moon is also the one of Negotiation and Mediation.
BGR is Sustain + Support. And it does it so wonderfully, too! Qi Regen + Health Regen to allies within range? A technique that mimics TRD, if to a lesser extent, but also provides health + qi regen on a successful block? A pity that it doesn't have the resist we're looking for, otherwise it would be perfect. Elements of this and SES would be exactly what we're looking for - or elements of this and UHE.
UHE appears to be a more focused variation of SES, centered entirely around Resist and Sustain, rather than SES's focus on Resist, Spiritual Defense, and Thorns. If you want a straight Potency replacement for SES, this is your Art, because it does exactly that and provides Qi sustain for each dispelled Technique.
Taking UHE and BGR, mastering them, and merging them in some manner, would likely provide an Art like what you all were looking for. Unfortunately, the soonest all of that would happen is Green 6... we legitimately don't have the time.
I am just salty that we can't explore all of these, bah. They're all cool; that they aren't perfect is to be expected from the Archive.
E: pronouns.
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- Location
- United States of America
Alright, let's put my thoughts on paper.
This does, however, have some nice synergy with our domain and its ability to trigger an automatic dispell attempt. That has some really fun niche uses where we can force a counter dispell at them, and if they don't have good resist they will lose a technique. So, fun synergy, but, alas, no group sustain. Which is fine, we can't have everything... unless you want to be an ugly workhorse (Looking at you, WHR).
Unfortunately... it's not a resist art. Which is fine, but it seems like the a significant group of people wanted a resist art primarily, and this is not that. So, I'm going to set it aside for now, but I'm watching you, you beautiful little art.
It takes two actions to set up a self-perpetuating cycle which feeds you more qi than you expend. And it works on every single technique we cast. There are two ways for the self-perpetuating cycle to be broken, either dispelling Sparks in Ash, or using dispels of rank A or higher. Dispelling "Sparks in Ash" is easy to fix for us, we recast it for C rank qi. Unless it is automatically dispelled, which would be strange because it doesn't attack or defend against an opponent's techniques, then the cycle continues with only a slight hiccup.
If a person uses an A rank dispell... then we won the fight. Not only did they use A rank qi to do the dispel, but we also get that A rank qi ourselves, basically filling our qi reserves to the top. It's a complete shift in the fight to our advantage.
The only downside I'm seeing to this art is that it doesn't really stop our arts from being dispelled, it just accepts that as inevitable and then recasts them. Which is ok for a lot of our arts, but other arts may be more determinately affected.
All in all, I think that this is the best resist art of the set, and can completely replace SES for us without any additional meridian shenanigans.
So, WHR. I dub thee the ugly workhorse. You're not going to win any prizes for beauty or speed, and your eyes may not be perfectly symmetrical, but put you behind the plow and work will be done. In general, people seemed to have wanted a personal resist art and a group sustain art. This does both... adequately. It's not going to win prizes for one or the other, but it is a compact little art that will pull its weight. The shield is nice as upkeep as it means it takes twice as long to dispell our music art techs. Which, while ideally it would be all techs, is still fairly decent, especially if our Domain counts. The group sustain is alright, and gives some other defenses to spirit defense. So, my opinion is... meh. It's alright.
I like the themes of this art. It's a fun little twist on cold and ice and counters. It does provide "significant" resist, but all of its retaliatory effects happen when the opponent fails to dispell. Which is nice, but doesn't really help against someone who can already dispell our stuff. It doesn't make our techniques last longer or trigger the retaliation if they succeed on dispell, it just boosts our resist and punishes failure.
This does, however, have some nice synergy with our domain and its ability to trigger an automatic dispell attempt. That has some really fun niche uses where we can force a counter dispell at them, and if they don't have good resist they will lose a technique. So, fun synergy, but, alas, no group sustain. Which is fine, we can't have everything... unless you want to be an ugly workhorse (Looking at you, WHR).
This art seems to really be Zhengui focused. Wood and fire, renewal, destruction, stamina. Qi and health regen is the focus here and it loves to draw out the fight, as the longer the fight goes on the more value this art has for the user and their allies.
Unfortunately... it's not a resist art. Which is fine, but it seems like the a significant group of people wanted a resist art primarily, and this is not that. So, I'm going to set it aside for now, but I'm watching you, you beautiful little art.
So... I've walked myself back on thinking that this art is so busted and broken as to not be feasible in the system and needing a nerf. I still think it is hand's down the best resist art here, will be able to completely replace SES meridian wise, and, I think, function-wise. Let me explain, however, why I think this is the most broken art of the set.
It takes two actions to set up a self-perpetuating cycle which feeds you more qi than you expend. And it works on every single technique we cast. There are two ways for the self-perpetuating cycle to be broken, either dispelling Sparks in Ash, or using dispels of rank A or higher. Dispelling "Sparks in Ash" is easy to fix for us, we recast it for C rank qi. Unless it is automatically dispelled, which would be strange because it doesn't attack or defend against an opponent's techniques, then the cycle continues with only a slight hiccup.
If a person uses an A rank dispell... then we won the fight. Not only did they use A rank qi to do the dispel, but we also get that A rank qi ourselves, basically filling our qi reserves to the top. It's a complete shift in the fight to our advantage.
The only downside I'm seeing to this art is that it doesn't really stop our arts from being dispelled, it just accepts that as inevitable and then recasts them. Which is ok for a lot of our arts, but other arts may be more determinately affected.
All in all, I think that this is the best resist art of the set, and can completely replace SES for us without any additional meridian shenanigans.
Diomedea
A piece of the continent
- Location
- The interblag
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I think UHE has better overlap with Zhengui even if it's not 100% on the money, and I really like how mean it is. With both techs up, you dispel our tech and we get the qi cost back, or whatever you used to dispel it. Then it goes back up...at 1 rank cost reduced, and will be harder to dispel next time. Dispelling us just feeds us.
[X] Undying Hearth's Embers (4 Spine, 2 Leg, 2 Lungs)
Edit: And from a meta perspective, it gives room for the art to show up in the narrative when our arts go down...and then pop back up, better than ever!
[X] Undying Hearth's Embers (4 Spine, 2 Leg, 2 Lungs)
Edit: And from a meta perspective, it gives room for the art to show up in the narrative when our arts go down...and then pop back up, better than ever!
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