Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

Yun · Dec 7, 2019

Valmond said:
Hmmm, domain conflict.
I guess it's "There is no peace in emptiness, no content in stillness. Stagnation is death; act, change, move, think, and grow until the very end." part.
Don't regret this though, never liked that part of our domain anyway, and a way the demands we abandon our family just to grow faster ourselves is not a way worth following.

Uh discarding insights is a terrible idea, and generally requires rare medicines to do so iirc. The more realistic outcome is LQ simply needs to resolve the conflict between the two insights, and that should be seen as a hurdle that will potentially generate an advanced insight.

Although something to keep in mind is that any hypothetical advanced insight generated from the resolution of a domain conflict are things you need to be very cautious when risking a domain conflict with other insights, and the reason being any domain conflict involving them is far harder to resolve, which is likely why these things get far more difficult to resolve alongside having greater consequences than mere physical pain in the higher realms alongside a cultivation malus.

Also this is somewhat of a tangent, but the reason imo noble clans are able to consistently produce cultivators up to a specific cultivation level likely has less to do with being able to produce cultivators with exceptional talent, but rather being in possession of art suits proven not to generate domain conflicts, and a lack of that is why most cultivators even those as talented as Xiulan's sister peter out at the mid to high Cyan imo.

Valmond · Dec 7, 2019

picklepikkl said:
We already chose to limit and slow LQ for the sake of our family, back when we picked to spend 1 AP per month on them. If I had to guess, the domain conflict developed then, and this is just a logical extrapolation of that.

As a side note, what's going on right here does a lot to explain why the Imperial style of cultivation focuses more on spirits-as-tools rather than spirits-as-companions; unless you're from a line that has built itself around a particular line of spirits/spirit beasts, it's hard to keep your own Domain on track if you need to take your spirit-companions' own developing domains/ways into account.

I think the conflict is more between
"One person's desires cannot, alone make a home nor a family." and "There is no peace in emptiness, no content in stillness. Stagnation is death; act, change, move, think, and grow until the very end."

Our family wants us to slow down and wait for them.
Our way demands we move ever forward.

Zaealix · Dec 7, 2019

Asael said:
If you are right, then I guess those ambitions are dead in the water, because we just dont have the time to completely rekit

Not necessarily I think.
See, what I figure is that this means spending...Idk, 3-4 weeks of cultivation to get however many arts we'd need, and possibly an adventure or two to forge a dedicated insight, right?
In the grand scheme of things, Cultivators can live hundreds of years. A month is barely anything to that!
The big loss, if we lose anything, might be some of the prime loot from higher-ups we couldn't match directly that we could have if we didn't hit this snarl but eh...

Alectai said:
Don't gloat, it's in bad taste, especially since you're basically gloating that characters are complex and some people care about things other than raw power grinding.

...*sighes* Apologies...Might be about time I got off my bum and took a look at the math the Cabal deals with to help out instead of just doom-saying.

sergit · Dec 7, 2019

I am wondering about one thing! This update was all interacting with our own Spirits. Did our Spirit Ken and Empathy levels influence the outcome? Had it been lower, would us agreeing to the promise have not been enough? Had it been higher, would it have had a greater effect?

And, is there a possibility that we will have to increase these skills if we want our 'talk to Six to conince them to stay' to go alright?

Valmond · Dec 7, 2019

Asael said:
@Valmond
On your first point. Isn't that basically what I just said?

As for the second. I don't think you get Ways. They don't really compromise by the time you are that high up.

Yes, i was pointing out you were repeating what i had already said.
And yes, they don't compromise at high level.
So it's great we learned of this now so we can find a way to compromise when we still can.

Yun · Dec 7, 2019

sergit said:
I am wondering about one thing! This update was all interacting with our own Spirits. Did our Spirit Ken and Empathy levels influence the outcome? Had it been lower, would us agreeing to the promise have not been enough? Had it been higher, would it have had a greater effect?

And, is there a possibility that we will have to increase these skills if we want our 'talk to Six to conince them to stay' to go alright?

Hm. Considering Ling Qi told Six they could leave whenever they wanted it will be less convince Six to stay, and more character develop of what kind of world Ling Qi seeks to bring about as she climbs the mountain of cultivation. This will either interest Six enough to stick around, or they will leave.

Erebeal · Dec 7, 2019

Mmm, in some ways I think this is kind of Six's version of a tribulation. And they're naturally inclined to just run away from it. To wake up and let the dream end when it becomes too much.

To an extent, it could be argued that what they need is a bit of the FVM-inspired ideas of Ling Qi - "Though a path might be hard and lonely, it has worth if you can present something of beauty to those you care for at the end. "

If we can resolve this, then it should be the kind of thing that would make them much stronger, buuutttt...

olamide · Dec 7, 2019

I really hope we can keep Six. I like them and would hate to see them go.

Octacron · Dec 7, 2019

I am a little surprised so many seems too agree this insight is the problem:

yrsillar said:
There is no peace in emptiness, no content in stillness. Stagnation is death; act, change, move, think, and grow until the very end.

I mean, this is very much not emptiness, we are acting, we are changing and we are thinking. It is only a single line that can be interpreted as directly being in conflict here, and even that is if we define "grow until the very end." as only about power, and not for instance personal growth.

I think the fvm insight is far more in conflict (quoted below) as we are we are making actions now rather the building towards something greater. But most of all I think this is more of general conflict that can't be solved by looking at single insights, we instead has too consider or domain and way as a whole.

yrsillar said:
Though a path might be hard and lonely, it has worth if you can present something of beauty to those you care for at the end.

Yun · Dec 7, 2019

Erebeal said:
Mmm, in some ways I think this is kind of Six's version of a tribulation. And they're naturally inclined to just run away from it. To wake up and let the dream end when it becomes too much.

To an extent, it could be argued that what they need is a bit of the FVM-inspired ideas of Ling Qi - "Though a path might be hard and lonely, it has worth if you can present something of beauty to those you care for at the end. "

If we can resolve this, then it should be the kind of thing that would make them much stronger, buuutttt...

Actually your comment about Six being inclined to run away from it makes me wonder if how pieces of GS start to develop a domain different than their greater self is through a cultivator caring enough about them to stage an intervention when they start down the path that leads back to their greater self? That would certainly explain Xin's comments about her being a pure innocent fairy corrupted by Jiao.

Diomedea · Dec 7, 2019

Yun said:
The more realistic outcome is LQ simply needs to resolve the conflict between the two insights, and that should be seen as a hurdle that will potentially generate an advanced insight.

This is my read on the situation. Ling Qi needs better insight in how the conflicting insights actually interact, because the un-nuanced reading is conflict. So she needs nuance, or an advanced insight into what growth and change and moving forward actually means.

On another note, Six leaving would really kneecap us, since we rely pretty heavily on them for self-dispels. We'd need to do that ourselves and we don't really have an art basis for that. Fitting in learning another art would be very painful, both in terms of the AP needed to learn the art, and meridians.

sergit · Dec 7, 2019

Yun said:
Hm. Considering Ling Qi told Six they could leave whenever they wanted it will be less convince Six to stay, and more character develop of what kind of world Ling Qi seeks to bring about as she climbs the mountain of cultivation. This will either interest Six enough to stick around, or they will leave.

So in the end, it comes more to which choice we make once the relevant update arrives, and our actual social skills/stats are less of a factor? Hmm. I'd kind of like for them to matter, at least a bit X3

picklepikkl · Dec 7, 2019

sergit said:
So in the end, it comes more to which choice we make once the relevant update arrives, and our actual social skills/stats are less of a factor? Hmm. I'd kind of like for them to matter, at least a bit X3

I believe our skills/stats influence what options we get; I seem to recall people mentioning that Yrs said we would have gotten better options during the mission interlude if we'd had more War.

Arkeus · Dec 7, 2019

I am glad that Ling Qi decided what she did... but let's not kid ourself, this wasn't a "We chose a clean break instead of something horrible later". We chose to be greedy right now, which caused a clean break, and it's better that if we had chosen to not be greedy and then acted on greediness later... but it wasn't the only choice. In fact, we have WoG the way to resolve the growing issue would have been different.

My thoughts here is simply that Ling Qi still thinks of Qingge as family even though she will never be helpful in a fight with us. We still spend time with her, and there is no domain conflict with spending time with those we lose, as it's not "slowing down" or any such things. The current conflict we have is because Ling Qi both wants to not slow down and have her spirits be with her when fighting... when that becomes increasingly hard as the gap between them is too wide.

If we weren't greedy and didn't want to have both ever growing cultivation and our spirits always be there fighting with us, we could simply... have treated them as family, and not care whether they never go beyond green 2. Ling Qi, however, chose to be greedy, and I approve of that choice. However, that greed then means we have a conflict to resolve.

Diomedon said:
This is my read on the situation. Ling Qi needs better insight in how the conflicting insights actually interact, because the un-nuanced reading is conflict. So she needs nuance, or an advanced insight into what growth and change and moving forward actually means.

On another note, Six leaving would really kneecap us, since we rely pretty heavily on them for self-dispels. We'd need to do that ourselves and we don't really have an art basis for that. Fitting in learning another art would be very painful, both in terms of the AP needed to learn the art, and meridians.

I don't think the problem is "ever growing" but rather "ever growing but wanting the people around her to keep up".

Alectai · Dec 7, 2019

Arkeus said:
I am glad that Ling Qi decided what she did... but let's not kid ourself, this wasn't a "We chose a clean break instead of something horrible later". We chose to be greedy right now, which caused a clean break, and it's better that if we had chosen to not be greedy and then acted on greediness later... but it wasn't the only choice. In fact, we have WoG the way to resolve the growing issue would have been different.

My thoughts here is simply that Ling Qi still thinks of Qingge as family even though she will never be helpful in a fight with us. We still spend time with her, and there is no domain conflict with spending time with those we lose, as it's not "slowing down" or any such things. The current conflict we have is because Ling Qi both wants to not slow down and have her spirits be with her when fighting... when that becomes increasingly hard as the gap between them is too wide.

If we weren't greedy and didn't want to have both ever growing cultivation and our spirits always be there fighting with us, we could simply... have treated them as family, and not care whether they never go beyond green 2. Ling Qi, however, chose to be greedy, and I approve of that choice. However, that greed then means we have a conflict to resolve.

Yeah, that's pretty much my sentiments as well. Wish I could wax eloquently a bit more on it but I've got to get ready for my shift.

tricholysis · Dec 7, 2019

Thor's Twin said:
Furthermore, I think that any argument we use to convince Sixiang to stay with us needs to be primarily an emotional argument, not a logical argument. Sixiang, at their core, is a muse, a thing of inspiration. Logical arguments are less likely to convince them because they see the world not as a thing of logic or rationality, but as a thing of emotion and insight.

I think that a winning argument would be one where we find something that resonates with Sixiang at a fundamental level here with us, and resonates so strongly that Sixiang is willing to bear with the struggles and hardships that come with being our muse.

Yun said:
Actually your comment about Six being inclined to run away from it makes me wonder if how pieces of GS start to develop a domain different than their greater self is through a cultivator caring enough about them to stage an intervention when they start down the path that leads back to their greater self? That would certainly explain Xin's comments about her being a pure innocent fairy corrupted by Jiao.

I wonder if 'winning' the argument is what's best? If that's an emotional framework that we should take towards a person, to the extent that our goal is simply to cling and clutch to them, that the only desire is to keep them? If Sixiang doesn't want to be here, should we say to them, 'Yes you do' in contradiction of what they claim is true about themselves? Should Ling Qi disregard what Sixiang says is their own desire and try to convince them otherwise? Winning or trying to convince Sixiang just because they're something we want in our own lives. Something like that isn't, to me, desirable.

Or maybe we phrase it more as talking to someone about their planned suicide or euthanasia? Those people aren't all that attached to the world either. If that's the framework we take towards Sixiang then I would want to dissuade them. It is true that the world is hard, but in choosing to still be here there is an endorsement of sorts, that, despite the difficulties, existing is worthwhile. Showing something uplifting, trying to support a friend through a difficult time, that would be a more desirable framework.

But in the end I don't know if staging an intervention here is clutching or dissuading. Sixiang isn't a human with only one shot at existence, they're a dream that comes and goes. Fixing them closer to mortality...I dunno, maybe I'm antinatalist in this debate but the world is kind of insufferable. If they don't want to bear with the pain then who are we to force them to?

Erebeal · Dec 7, 2019

Diomedon said:
This is my read on the situation. Ling Qi needs better insight in how the conflicting insights actually interact, because the un-nuanced reading is conflict. So she needs nuance, or an advanced insight into what growth and change and moving forward actually means.

Mmm, I think it's important not to get too monofocused on the insights. They need to be looked at in the broader picture of Ling Qi's personality, and, to a degree, the questers. Like, Ling Qi's feelings there were in large part very reflective of concerns people have voice in quest. It is the part of her that hates being limited by anything, that hates not being able to be "optimal". Getting too hung up on the specific wording of any insight can lose some of that I feel.

sergit · Dec 7, 2019

Arkeus said:
I am glad that Ling Qi decided what she did... but let's not kid ourself, this wasn't a "We chose a clean break instead of something horrible later". We chose to be greedy right now, which caused a clean break, and it's better that if we had chosen to not be greedy and then acted on greediness later... but it wasn't the only choice. In fact, we have WoG the way to resolve the growing issue would have been different.

My thoughts here is simply that Ling Qi still thinks of Qingge as family even though she will never be helpful in a fight with us. We still spend time with her, and there is no domain conflict with spending time with those we lose, as it's not "slowing down" or any such things. The current conflict we have is because Ling Qi both wants to not slow down and have her spirits be with her when fighting... when that becomes increasingly hard as the gap between them is too wide.

If we weren't greedy and didn't want to have both ever growing cultivation and our spirits always be there fighting with us, we could simply... have treated them as family, and not care whether they never go beyond green 2. Ling Qi, however, chose to be greedy, and I approve of that choice. However, that greed then means we have a conflict to resolve.

I don't think the problem is "ever growing" but rather "ever growing but wanting the people around her to keep up".

Maybe it's just semantics or a difference on opinion on what 'being greedy' means, but I think our choice was not the greedy one, but the safe one.
Greedy would have been trying to not to commit to inconvenient things while still hoping/expecting everything would work out. It would have been kinda like saying "I don't nee to stop and wait for the others, I am sure they can catch up with me on their own. I better keep rushing forward and have faith that they won't fall behind." It is a gamble, it is greedy because it exposes us to the risk of "No, they couldn't catch up with us, so they were discarded" in order to try to reach the jackpot of "I made it very far without having to slow down, and the others luckily came through without me having to wait for them! No sacrifices had to be made!"

We made the safe option by having LQ say: "I am not willing to leave this up to chance. I am waiting for them, even if it means sacrificing precious time that I could be using to progress further. If I have to pick between losing progress or risking to lose touch with my family, I pick losing progress, even if it hurts. Because, the alternative would hurt more."

Aside of that nitpick, I think I generally agree on everything else you've said in your post.

commando2341 · Dec 7, 2019

Speaking personally, I did like the narrative themes of Ling Qi not leaving her family behind by becoming a teacher good enough to raise them up with her.

As for the Sixiang question, I can only say that I think they're tired of the fairly incessant combat we've gone through, and that I feel regretful we haven't been able to show her some of the joys of life we experience as we live.

Can we write a similar piece to what we did for the music challenge vs. Yu Nuan (?) celebrating Sixiang's journey with us thus far, leaving the ending as an optimistic hope for future tales and stories?

The binding thread between Ling Qi and Sixiang is our creativity and our expression. Let's express that to Sixiang the best way we can - in song.

Arkeus · Dec 7, 2019

sergit said:
Maybe it's just semantics or a difference on opinion on what 'being greedy' means, but I think our choice was not the greedy one, but the safe one.
Greedy would have been trying to not to commit to inconvenient things while still hoping/expecting everything would work out. It would have been kinda like saying "I don't nee to stop and wait for the others, I am sure they can catch up with me on their own. I better keep rushing forward and have faith that they won't fall behind." It is a gamble, it is greedy because it exposes us to the risk of "No, they couldn't catch up with us, so they were discarded" in order to try to reach the jackpot of "I made it very far without having to slow down, and the others luckily came through without me having to wait for them! No sacrifices had to be made!"

The issue would have been if Ling Qi had seen them unable to catch up... and then decided to try to force them. That would have been the worse of both world. If she had seen them unable to catch up, and then gone "Well, it's fine, I still love them", then it would have been perfectly OK.

I am saying Ling Qi is going the greedy choice because she doesn't want to even leave the option for "Spirits don't catch up and that's life". She'll make sure she tries her hardest to have them be with her.

Huo Yuhao · Dec 7, 2019

Octacron said:
I am a little surprised so many seems too agree this insight is the problem:

I mean, this is very much not emptiness, we are acting, we are changing and we are thinking. It is only a single line that can be interpreted as directly being in conflict here, and even that is if we define "grow until the very end." as only about power, and not for instance personal growth.

I think the fvm insight is far more in conflict (quoted below) as we are we are making actions now rather the building towards something greater. But most of all I think this is more of general conflict that can't be solved by looking at single insights, we instead has too consider or domain and way as a whole.

I was about to make a post on this. I still think it's true that the SCS insight doesn't need to be about personal power above all else. I essentially made the same argument you did when we were voting on this insight - that character growth could fit just as well with this insight as growth in power. At the moment though, Ling Qi seems to be channeling this insight primarily into pursuing power. Changing her perspective on this insight would be helpful and might play an important role in resolving this conflict.

The FVM insight does seem to be a problematic part of her domain. It's purpose from my point of view is to act as a bridge between Ling Qi's care for her family and desire for power, but it doesn't seem to be working that well. Upon further thought, this may be due to its interaction with our SCS insight. The two insights combine to send a message of Ling Qi working to change and grow while apart from her family. If Ling Qi's alone, the SCS insight needs to focus on growth she can accomplish alone, which is more likely to be growth in personal power. In isolation, the SCS insight could focus on growth and development alongside her family, which is less likely to be about personal power, but the FVM insight makes this harder to do. Both insights seem to be called into question in this update, so the idea that the interaction of the two is helping cause the conflict makes sense.

Yun · Dec 7, 2019

Diomedon said:
This is my read on the situation. Ling Qi needs better insight in how the conflicting insights actually interact, because the un-nuanced reading is conflict. So she needs nuance, or an advanced insight into what growth and change and moving forward actually means.

On another note, Six leaving would really kneecap us, since we rely pretty heavily on them for self-dispels. We'd need to do that ourselves and we don't really have an art basis for that. Fitting in learning another art would be very painful, both in terms of the AP needed to learn the art, and meridians.

The issue is less with "ever growing", but more "ever growing, or rather the will to reach ever greater heights, and a desire not to inflict the very same faces she never wanted to experience upon her own family.".

Well if it is truly that bad Ling Qi will just need to dream big enough that her dream taints the pure innocent dream that is Six. Also Six literally being a dream spun from Ling QI would explain why they reacts so strongly to the hardships of life as they're essentially nightmares something that is anathema to their nature as a dream, and one potential way of resolving that issue would be to insulate Six somehow. Another way would be to simply persuade them that the good outweighs the bad, and both lead to different domains I suspect.

sergit said:
So in the end, it comes more to which choice we make once the relevant update arrives, and our actual social skills/stats are less of a factor? Hmm. I'd kind of like for them to matter, at least a bit X3

Well they influence the options. Besides all Ling Qi needs to do is use her manipulation to get Six to embody her Dream with a "I have a dream..." while still working out the details of the Dream, and sprinting up the mountain of cultivation.

Neshuakadal · Dec 7, 2019

I really really hope Six decides to stick around. I don't want her to leave. We already have LanLan leaving. Please don't leave too six.

Varder · Dec 7, 2019

Alectai said:
Don't gloat, it's in bad taste, especially since you're basically gloating that characters are complex and some people care about things other than raw power grinding.

All this choice did was reveal a fault line that already existed, because Ling Qi wants to grow fast but she also wants her family to come with her, and that's not something that'll happen without her effort.

Yes. And there are two answers to this problem. I think the one we picked in this vote is wrong. I didn't say that the problem wouldn't exist otherwise.

picklepikkl · Dec 7, 2019

Ananasmagos said:
I'm agreeing with the people who say we should resolve the power/family thing by teaching everyone to keep up with us. Also, I really don't want to lose Six, she's like 90% of our dispel and immunity thereof. And also hilarious.

Neshuakadal said:
I really really hope Six decides to stick around. I don't want her to leave. We already have LanLan leaving. Please don't leave too six.

They, not she.

Huo Yuhao said:
The FVM insight does seem to be a problematic part of her domain. It's purpose from my point of view is to act as a bridge between Ling Qi's care for her family and desire for power, but it doesn't seem to be working that well. Upon further thought, this may be due to its interaction with our SCS insight. The two insights combine to send a message of Ling Qi working to change and grow while apart from her family. If Ling Qi's alone, the SCS insight needs to focus on growth she can accomplish alone, which is more likely to be growth in personal power. In isolation, the SCS insight could focus on growth and development alongside her family, which is less likely to be about personal power, but the FVM insight makes this harder to do. Both insights seem to be called into question in this update, so the idea that the interactions of the two are causing the conflict makes sense.

This makes a lot of sense, and I think it's basically correct.

Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

A piece of the continent

This isn't even my nerdiest form

Crazy cat guy

Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion

Crazy cat guy

Tired Cultist

This isn't even my nerdiest form