Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
I bet Hanyi can't read either.

Wait.

Can Sixiang read? It's not like a bodiless spirit would be handling much correspondence, or as though text in dreams is almost ever coherent.
 
You know what would be cool? If TRU required at least one ally to use (but then could apply to fairly large numbers without cost).

Really play into the TRF themes of "stronger standing together".
 
Ok, so, build concept, themes, and covering our bases.

One of the big problems we have is conflicts between our stuff. Stealth and support don't go with each other fantastically. Zeqing/FSS and the theme of "wintery death" clashes horribly with Zhengui/TRF and the themes of everlasting vitality. An ice build doesn't go great with a TRF style wood build. Trying to collapse our elements creates lots of problems...

@Theo Promes made some good points on discord yesterday about playing with the contrasting themes of danger (darkness, loneliness) and safety. Here I'm going to discuss that a bit more, and how that can be used as a framework for a viable build that takes what we have and puts it together in a way very true to Ling Qi's character.

The first thing to do, I think, is to put everything together under the overarching concept of connections. One of the common mistakes people make when focusing on the "home" theme is to get too physical about it. TRF encourages this with its fortress themes and design - though we did have some good insight about getting away from that near the end of the tournament. In her breakthrough though, Ling Qi was much less about the physical concept of home or security, and more about the softer elements related to people.

Following this, I would suggesting framing the contrast as between "the danger of being alone" and "safety and joy in connections/power of friendship". Ling Qi is very much driven by her desire to never be weak and alone again, similarly her focus on acquiring friends and on support is driven by the idea that that provides security. This framing is thus very true to her character. Moreover, the contrast between the two elements emphasises them.

So how could this work buildwise?

I organised things like this in a quick crappy sketch:
In the outer sphere of loneliness, full of terrors to isolate you and make you lose your way, to be devoured by monsters, we have the Dark arts. The offensive arts. Something like:
  • Darkness attack art (e.g. FSS) - the monster brings death
  • Darkness stealth/movement (e.g. SCS) - be the invisible untouchable unstoppable monster
  • Some kind of sneak attack art - if we want to use stealth well, we need more stealth, we need better sneak attack, and utility-wise having something like PC to allow us to spike up our offense when we need it could be valuable. As an example, my Thousand Shadows art idea could work here, providing "monster in the shadows" themed stealth, sneak attack damage buffs, and minions to help us boost our offense and terrorise our foes. Alternatively, @Black Noise has argued that some kind of Wind/Darkness offensive stealth/movement art could be helpful.
  • FVM is FVM. FVM sits somewhere core to our build of course, and here sets up the environment that allows stealth and imposes the whole concept of being lost and alone to be beset by the monsters on our opponents. In many ways, it encompasses this whole sphere and defines it. It also to some degree provides a transition between the spheres, as it provides us with a refuge, and symbolically represents Ling Qi's journey. Of her surviving her loneliness and ordeals to reach a place of security.
In the inner sphere of safety, surrounded by our friends, we focus on defense, support, and connections. #PowerOfFriendship (we can even have magical girl theme music!)
  • Physical group defense (e.g. TRF) - Wood seems to be a great element for group defense, and I would focus more on connections here. The ideal would be a TRF successor that focuses more on the endless vitality and drawing strength from connections themes rather than the fortress ones.
  • Spiritual defense/Dispel resist - ok, basically I want a spiritual TRF here that gives us spiritual defense and dispel resistance. From a basic build perspective these are really important. Again, for theming reasons, having this have power of friendship/connection themes like TRF would be important.
  • PLR is... ok, right now it's sitting there metaphorically being us partying with our friends and being social and stuff. It's moon! It's kinda in theme!
  • Wind/music perception focused on connections e.g. maybe something based on the concept of everyone being connected by music carried on the winds. A listening based perception art obviously ties into music really well, and could help us develop music themed skill specialisations for things like perception/empathy and speech.

Laid out like this we get a nice framework for a philosophically strong build, that also covers all our bases well. Mechanically we can connect the stealth and support themes (theoretically) using FVM and PLR. Use and empower minions. Use them as cover to vanish into stealth, and use them to open holes in enemy defenses for us to strike. Endless vitality and endurance so we can play out long running battles where we vanish into the mists to harass our enemies and spawn minions. A perception art based around connections could potentially provide the ability to manipulate connections to avoid them and make us harder to detect, thus providing cross synergy with stealth tactics etc.

Anyway, obviously the details are something that are very much up in the air, and depend on what we can find. Also how elements work - I'm sort of thinking something like Darkness for the outer monster, Wood for inner defense, and then Wind to connect everything (with Moon sprinkled in for style). That kinda depends on how elements work together though - I'm particularly interested in maybe finding out more about how Wood and Wind work together in arts. We could also probably do something like this in a lot of different ways. The point of this is to more lay out what I think is a plausible framework for our build and domain that could work well, as well as provide a proof of concept of how it could be a viable build that would cover all our bases, and the kinds of things we might want to look for.
 
Ok, so, build concept, themes, and covering our bases.

One of the big problems we have is conflicts between our stuff. Stealth and support don't go with each other fantastically. Zeqing/FSS and the theme of "wintery death" clashes horribly with Zhengui/TRF and the themes of everlasting vitality. An ice build doesn't go great with a TRF style wood build. Trying to collapse our elements creates lots of problems...

@Theo Promes made some good points on discord yesterday about playing with the contrasting themes of danger (darkness, loneliness) and safety. Here I'm going to discuss that a bit more, and how that can be used as a framework for a viable build that takes what we have and puts it together in a way very true to Ling Qi's character.

The first thing to do, I think, is to put everything together under the overarching concept of connections. One of the common mistakes people make when focusing on the "home" theme is to get too physical about it. TRF encourages this with its fortress themes and design - though we did have some good insight about getting away from that near the end of the tournament. In her breakthrough though, Ling Qi was much less about the physical concept of home or security, and more about the softer elements related to people.

Following this, I would suggesting framing the contrast as between "the danger of being alone" and "safety and joy in connections/power of friendship". Ling Qi is very much driven by her desire to never be weak and alone again, similarly her focus on acquiring friends and on support is driven by the idea that that provides security. This framing is thus very true to her character. Moreover, the contrast between the two elements emphasises them.

So how could this work buildwise?

I organised things like this in a quick crappy sketch:
In the outer sphere of loneliness, full of terrors to isolate you and make you lose your way, to be devoured by monsters, we have the Dark arts. The offensive arts. Something like:
  • Darkness attack art (e.g. FSS) - the monster brings death
  • Darkness stealth/movement (e.g. SCS) - be the invisible untouchable unstoppable monster
  • Some kind of sneak attack art - if we want to use stealth well, we need more stealth, we need better sneak attack, and utility-wise having something like PC to allow us to spike up our offense when we need it could be valuable. As an example, my Thousand Shadows art idea could work here, providing "monster in the shadows" themed stealth, sneak attack damage buffs, and minions to help us boost our offense and terrorise our foes. Alternatively, @Black Noise has argued that some kind of Wind/Darkness offensive stealth/movement art could be helpful.
  • FVM is FVM. FVM sits somewhere core to our build of course, and here sets up the environment that allows stealth and imposes the whole concept of being lost and alone to be beset by the monsters on our opponents. In many ways, it encompasses this whole sphere and defines it. It also to some degree provides a transition between the spheres, as it provides us with a refuge, and symbolically represents Ling Qi's journey. Of her surviving her loneliness and ordeals to reach a place of security.
In the inner sphere of safety, surrounded by our friends, we focus on defense, support, and connections. #PowerOfFriendship (we can even have magical girl theme music!)
  • Physical group defense (e.g. TRF) - Wood seems to be a great element for group defense, and I would focus more on connections here. The ideal would be a TRF successor that focuses more on the endless vitality and drawing strength from connections themes rather than the fortress ones.
  • Spiritual defense/Dispel resist - ok, basically I want a spiritual TRF here that gives us spiritual defense and dispel resistance. From a basic build perspective these are really important. Again, for theming reasons, having this have power of friendship/connection themes like TRF would be important.
  • PLR is... ok, right now it's sitting there metaphorically being us partying with our friends and being social and stuff. It's moon! It's kinda in theme!
  • Wind/music perception focused on connections e.g. maybe something based on the concept of everyone being connected by music carried on the winds. A listening based perception art obviously ties into music really well, and could help us develop music themed skill specialisations for things like perception/empathy and speech.

Laid out like this we get a nice framework for a philosophically strong build, that also covers all our bases well. Mechanically we can connect the stealth and support themes (theoretically) using FVM and PLR. Use and empower minions. Use them as cover to vanish into stealth, and use them to open holes in enemy defenses for us to strike. Endless vitality and endurance so we can play out long running battles where we vanish into the mists to harass our enemies and spawn minions. A perception art based around connections could potentially provide the ability to manipulate connections to avoid them and make us harder to detect, thus providing cross synergy with stealth tactics etc.

Anyway, obviously the details are something that are very much up in the air, and depend on what we can find. Also how elements work - I'm sort of thinking something like Darkness for the outer monster, Wood for inner defense, and then Wind to connect everything (with Moon sprinkled in for style). That kinda depends on how elements work together though - I'm particularly interested in maybe finding out more about how Wood and Wind work together in arts. We could also probably do something like this in a lot of different ways. The point of this is to more lay out what I think is a plausible framework for our build and domain that could work well, as well as provide a proof of concept of how it could be a viable build that would cover all our bases, and the kinds of things we might want to look for.
As you suggested in Discord after seeing the little conversation I had with Theo about I'm going to lay out what I said there, with the side point that I agree with your general effort and the diagram. The details can be quibbled over when It's not 2:10(when I started writing this) in the ass end of the morning.

Theo used the common idea of themes to essentially bring up a really good point I agree with. It is that FVM is the whole concept of the separation between in group and out group writ small and acted as the seed for it. My spin on this point as I agree with it, because I made the decision to discard with themes for myself because I find them too subjective to properly discuss(the kind of subjectivity I'm talking about is the different initial thoughts people have when they see a word like "water"). And I collapsed the split between method and themes into each other because I can point to direct examples of methods in story for ease of communication. In my agreement I would say that FVM is the thing which creates the separation in the first place. It very clearly lays out the borders of in group and out group. Because it creates the dichotomy it logically goes in the middle and everything else is to either side of it if we're using Erebeal's diagram.

An example of nice cross over between themes and methods is wind's connection thing, most prominently what Bian Ha(fox girl tutor) did and discussed and what we're looking for now in the archive.

Anyway, I would also point out that FVM is the thing which set Ling Qi on her path along with SCS and EPC in the first place. Cultivation arts work with this method focused thought, in the sense that they give Ling Qi links and methods to what are essentially a higher power in the case of EPC and a loosely defined form of dantian shaping in the case of Soul and Genesis, less so with Genesis. Though we haven't seen enough of Genesis to really determine what it links her to.

They're the engine, and because of that we don't think to bring them up much, but they do matter in this discussion. FVM described our approach to fighting along with SCS, but EPC defined who our main Patron was gonna be and that has had ripples everywhere. It basically had ripples since we made the roll that got us meeting Xin in the first place!

As I also mentioned to Erebeal, Ling Qi is very very much, incredibly based on a salient point:

Ling Qi is very much driven by her desire to never be weak and alone again
Ling Qi also equates weak and alone. They are the same thing to her. They have been solidly the same thing since she got to Yellow and decided that pure freedom was horrible no good badness she wanted nothing to do with.

Though if you want to really blow your mind you can remember that at the very beginning of the quest a sagely Dong Fu gave the advice of how powerful the power of friendship is to a girl who was weak and alone. Connections have been a part of this quest from the word go.

E: Little bit messier written than I wanted but I don't care now, it's cold and I'm going to sleep.
 
Last edited:
I do like the idea of the 'core' being Yang/festive (PLR, Vitality style defences) while the 'expeditions/offences' being Yin, and both side being connected by Wind and Moon (E.G support wind/Stealth for expeditions/attacks/P.avoid, Wind Perception/Com that also give S.Avoid/Fade) with summons patrolling the gates and going on those expeditions.
 
Ok, so, build concept, themes, and covering our bases.

Thanks for summing up the discussion, I think it was a quite productive one.
here is another drawing, instead of a venn diagram I think it better shows the conceptual borders as implied by the arts/themes:

Ling Qi also equates weak and alone. They are the same thing to her.

Another important point - a lot of the themes of our arts support this, and I think it was one of the many things that seems dissonant at first glance; LQ is so very motivated by the power of friendship, and yet has such an amount of loneliness and isolation in her arts.

Similarly the contradicting themes between Zhengui's fire/rebirth and FSS' cold/death, the 'formless shadows' fighting style of LQ compared to Zhengui's defensive powerhouse approach, and LQ's own narrative journey from the isolated street rat to someone who has friends and family and is building something lasting. The idea here is to see these differences as complementary, not something to decide between but rather as two sides of the same concept. This does heavily root in narrative, for example there are plenty of occasions to show how LQ reacts harshly different depending on whether the other party is a friend, or not. That very different behaviour is not contradictory, however, it is simply a rather strong separation between her in-group and out-group.

That is exactly the view for the whole concept here - there are two very different sides to our protagonist, and yet, she doesn't seem particularly conflicted, there is no dissonance, just different modes of behaviour depending on what end of the divide one ends up.

As Erebeal has already pointed out, there are plenty of particulars to discuss further, but as a general concept, I believe it sums up the character and ideals of Ling Qi, and provides a basis of discussion for further development.

E: fixing the image, I can't forums it turns out :)
 
Last edited:
Thanks for summing up the discussion, I think it was a quite productive one.
here is another drawing, instead of a venn diagram I think it better shows the conceptual borders as implied by the arts/themes:



Another important point - a lot of the themes of our arts support this, and I think it was one of the many things that seems dissonant at first glance; LQ is so very motivated by the power of friendship, and yet has such an amount of loneliness and isolation in her arts.

Similarly the contradicting themes between Zhengui's fire/rebirth and FSS' cold/death, the 'formless shadows' fighting style of LQ compared to Zhengui's defensive powerhouse approach, and LQ's own narrative journey from the isolated street rat to someone who has friends and family and is building something lasting. The idea here is to see these differences as complementary, not something to decide between but rather as two sides of the same concept. This does heavily root in narrative, for example there are plenty of occasions to show how LQ reacts harshly different depending on whether the other party is a friend, or not. That very different behaviour is not contradictory, however, it is simply a rather strong separation between her in-group and out-group.

That is exactly the view for the whole concept here - there are two very different sides to our protagonist, and yet, she doesn't seem particularly conflicted, there is no dissonance, just different modes of behaviour depending on what end of the divide one ends up.

As Erebeal has already pointed out, there are plenty of particulars to discuss further, but as a general concept, I believe it sums up the character and ideals of Ling Qi, and provides a basis of discussion for further development.

E: fixing the image, I can't forums it turns out :)
Try like so:

Instead of

Quote in bbcode editor mode to see the code
 
I kind of like the concept, but I'm a bit skeptical of defining PLR as 'good' and scs as 'bad'.

I wouldn't use good/bad to describe any of the above concepts, those words are really vague and could also imply "bad arts" or whatever, which is not at all the point. That being said, some folks on discord also made the argument that PLR belongs in the same dividing ring of FVM or even the outer ring of "danger", that's certainly arguable, I'd tend to put it on a level with FVM, after having that discussion - both arts have that effect where they provide a safe haven for us by making others stay out.

The main point of the post(s), I want to point out however, is more having a general concept as a basis for these individual discussions - my diagram is not meant to be the be-all end-all of the discussion, but an illustration of the idea that we can have a single concept, despite having some contradictory arts and aspects.
 
Personally I'm somewhat skeptical of breaking down our arts using a metaphor this crude, not only because pretty much every cultivator worth their salt will have offensive and defensive arts (which this concept is, stripped of its home connotations), but because our most of our arts don't really fit this divide:
  • Arts like FVM, PLR and FSS inherently straddle both sides of the line. They create an undoubtedly dangerous environment to our enemies; the embodiment of loneliness, monsters of moon and darkness and an inevitable cold death, while at the same time passing by those we isolate from these effects, providing benefits even.
  • SCS is more of a self-centered neutral art that gives us the grace and speed of a fleeting shadow, it does not concern itself with terror and safety.
  • TRF represents an unyielding fortress that can survive any onslaught, which can be interpreted as a heaven of safety but it's only by projecting the metaphor onto it. The Argent combat arts represent safety and power in numbers in a much more obvious way.
  • AE is pretty much the only art that perfectly fits this axis as the obvious external monster art, but I'm sure none of us are happy with its themes. (I'm partial to @Erebeal's summons/stealth/armor art for example, and in general I think the endless greed-based understanding of darkness we can draw from AE is at least mildly toxic to our mindset.)
I'm not saying we shouldn't look for unifying concepts for our overall theme, but this one needs more work. For one our only solid core of friendly embrace to our precious few is in the baseline Domain effect. (and honestly making our friends empowered as per TRF instead of having them protected is something that agrees more with me).

Alternatively, @Black Noise has argued that some kind of Wind/Darkness offensive stealth/movement art could be helpful.
Not quite what I argured, here's a hopefully clearer view:
  • we're missing a few things from our build:
    • Perception, stealth (will get some options this archive dive)
    • Spiritual armor, (dispel) resist, spiritual avoid
    • support (defensive likely; enhancing TRF's theme, works with debuff/area control offense)
    • maybe: mobility (losing AS and FZ, PLR might end up a weird offensive art that uses legs instead)
    • maybe: offense/control (currently have FSS, FVM, PLR, AE(summons); still gonna have a lot of arm meridian space)
  • I'm actually with Erebeal and that darkness-based armor/stealth/summons as an answer to stealth and minions, replacing AE. Though we're unlikely to get it this dive due to missing keywords and probably rarity.
  • spiritual armor and resist are something that still needs to be thought of more, what kind of theme and elements we want and would work (wood? ice? lake?)
  • spiritual avoid is what I've proposed a wind/dark art for, whose "role" is either one of: <fade, fade/mobility,fade/stealth>, possibly including dodge on top because it's pretty in-theme.
    • Mobility in particular gets a mention for 2 reasons; if we get the stealth/minions art there's less need for stealth here, and because currently we have speed tied to Strength. We know (and correct me on this @yrsillar) it's possible for arts to change that, so something that'll make our speed based on pure Dex, or Dex+Wits or even Dex+Stamina would work very well for us.
 
  • spiritual armor and resist are something that still needs to be thought of more, what kind of theme and elements we want and would work (wood? ice? lake?)
-Moon. The Moon's inconstant, yet regular nature means that spiritual assaults may catch onto one form, but be shed as it shifts to another phase with a smile. Nightmares may be forgotten as the next dream passes, or curses pass by unnoticed by the hidden eye that sees all.

-Darkness. Do what you will against the Abyss, it will grasp it, swallow it, and make the curse its own.

-Music. Music is the voice of the soul, and where malign intent is cast out, a heartfelt voice may dispel evil and strengthen the heart of all who hear.

-Wood. The heart of the wood is the strongest, most resilient core. Torments of the spirit strike upon the heart, and new wood grows in the wounds, leaving no room for darkness to linger.

Just to toss out a few.
 
Personally I'm somewhat skeptical of breaking down our arts using a metaphor this crude, not only because pretty much every cultivator worth their salt will have offensive and defensive arts (which this concept is, stripped of its home connotations), but because our most of our arts don't really fit this divide:
Offence/Defence is not the point of the concept, no. As you say yourself, everyone has both of those, there is no inherent contradiction to it. The line you draw here to show that the arts don't fit is not at all what this is about.

Rather, the point is that LQ has various influences, styles and arts that do not seem to mix well, at first glance. Erebeal explains this at length using the example of Ling Qi's focus on building friendships and connections, and the dangers of loneliness emphasized by some of her arts. I have listed some more examples in my previous post.

The idea now is that this is not the sort of contradiction where we have to choose to embrace one and discard the other for the sake of not diluting our concept and losing efficacy, but rather, that the very duality of having both sides incorporated is a strength.

To give a martial example instead of one of the various more metaphorical ones: Take Zhengui's and Ling Qi's fighting styles. They are entirely different, one has the armored, slow but physically powerful approach, whereas the other uses evasiveness, sensory trickery and a slow, grinding offence. Note how both styles have offence and defence, that is not the divide; but at first glance, the two styles seem contradictory. However, in practice, Zhengui's slow-moving but dangerous position serves as a defensive retreat for LQ, who can strike out at choice targets thanks to superior mobility and stealth, and fall back to use Zhengui as cover as needed. The duality becomes an advantage.

There are many more layers like this one, but the point is, seeming contradictions can be resolved into a tension between the two that is an advantage, and something rather inherent in Lin Qi's character (take for example how she relates to ingroup vs. outgroup).

I'm not saying we shouldn't look for unifying concepts for our overall theme, but this one needs more work.

Well then, criticism is easy, feel free to post your own, improved concept :)
 
Sorry to step in the middle of the themes discussion, but @yrsillar, I noticed that the EPC progress at the character sheet is 439/500 Sixth Phase, which is missing the 15 point bonus Ling Qi got when Su Ling revealed her pills secret. In the update itself its written as 454/500.

---

Regarding the theming, I am not sure how FVM and FSS are supposed to straddle the line; they are very clearly the separation between in-group and out-group, even AE can be friendly fire proof (albeit not quite as well). PLR too since it counts as a stealth environment and seeks to confound Ling Qi foes, though maybe it will change to buff allies later on.

SCS is also out-group focused, since its theme as about bein elusive as a shadow to slip past enemies. There's no point in using its techs among allies.

TRF is the only remaining in-group focused art that is focused on directly helping allies/friends (FZ and that one tech from AC too I guess).

Ling Qi is currently seemingly more focused on bringing down enemies than empowering her friends. Though I wouldn't be averse to picking a ally buffing music art now that yrsillar is likely to generate a stealth art and a perception art that were missing from Ling Qi repertoire.
 
Back
Top