Elissa Farman may have had an effect upon the canon narrative. As those Dragon Eggs, she stole maybe the eggs that Daenerys hatched.

Don't want to Double Post edit: Another effect of the Queen Johanna matter is that Otto is unlikely to ever lose the position of Hand of the King, which he lost in book canon in 109 AC (but regained in 120AC) as it seems unlikely he will hector King Viserys about making Johanna's son heir apparent.

Otto and Lord Strong

Wait, Lord Lyonel Strong agreeing with Ser Otto Hightower?

We really have screw up the factionalism of the court, haven't we?
 
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@Teen Spirit aside from the big three, Dreamfyre, Vermithor and Silverwing, and the three wild dragons, what dragons do we know of that are currently living on Dragonstone and at King's Landing? I'm curious if goodest boi Sunfyre is already around.
 
Depending on how canny and obsessed with the idea of his own blood on the throne, and after the Gwayne approach fails. Otto could angle to use Alicent friendship with Rhaenyra, to betroth a child of hers to one of Rhaenyra own children. Otto already knows Rhaenyra sees the benefits of long tem strategic marriages at least.
 
@Teen Spirit If you don't mind me asking, what was the decisive factor that made Viserys pick Johanna Westerling over Victaria Tyrell?

I mean it is evident why he didn't pick the other potential brides-to-be, Laena (for her age and Corlys attitude), Alicent (Nyra's veto), and the Dornish girl (too problematic for the rest of the realm lords), so the choice was between Johanna and Victaria...
 
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@Teen Spirit If you don't mind me asking, what was the decisive factor that made Viserys pick Johanna Westerling over Victaria Tyrell?

I mean it is evident why he didn't pick Laena (for her age and Corlys attitude), Alicent (Nyra's veto), and the Dornish girl (too problematic for the rest of the realm lords), so the choice was between Johanna and Victaria...

I imagine since Johanna was from the main Lannister house while Victaria was only from the cadet branch of the Tyrells may have contributed. Tyrells are also a bit less prestigious given they are essentially stewards Aegon uplifted to rulership 100 years ago, while Lannisters are from and old and respected house.
 
I imagine since Johanna was from the main Lannister house while Victaria was only from the cadet branch of the Tyrells may have contributed. Tyrells are also a bit less prestigious given they are essentially stewards Aegon uplifted to rulership 100 years ago, while Lannisters are from and old and respected house.
Johanna isn't a Lannister, she's a Westerling. She marries into the Lannisters in canon, but not here.

Now the Westerlings did used to be King's unlike the Tyrells, but that was millennia ago so it's not like it's something to really be considered in this equation of who's more prestigious than who.
 
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@Teen Spirit If you don't mind me asking, what was the decisive factor that made Viserys pick Johanna Westerling over Victaria Tyrell?
Couple of things, Otto had been so caught off guard by this that he couldn't quite figure out how to push for the Tyrell. And Viserys figured people would find the idea of him marrying the daughter of a lord of a well regarded second-tier house more acceptable then the distant cousin of uplifted Stewards. Plus he's not entirely blind to the idea that a Lord Paramount's family would put considerable pressure on him to make their kid his heir.
 
So Otto prefered the Tyrells, I see.
Of course he did, they're at least fellow Reachman, and at this point in time the Hightowers are arguably the real powers that be in the Reach, he and his family would still be able to exert some influence through the Tyrells, certainly more than through the Westerlings at least.
 
Couple of things, Otto had been so caught off guard by this that he couldn't quite figure out how to push for the Tyrell. And Viserys figured people would find the idea of him marrying the daughter of a lord of a well regarded second-tier house more acceptable then the distant cousin of uplifted Stewards. Plus he's not entirely blind to the idea that a Lord Paramount's family would put considerable pressure on him to make their kid his heir.

Otto and Lord Strong spent most of the day trying to convince your father to reconsider, but he would hear none of it.

Otto Hightower wanted the Tyrells but who did Lord Strong want as Queen?
 
Laena. In the show he's very clear that she's his preferred match.

I wouldn't know I am a Book Canon fellow, because I don't trust HBO, they already screwed up the main series.

Lord Corlys Velyarion
Relationship Status:
Fustrated
-"The Sea Snake" Master of Ships on the Small Council, Lord of Driftmark, Husband of Rhaenys Targaryen "The Queen Who Never Was".

Shouldn't this read Former Master of Ships?

At the age of six and ten

Aren't we four and ten i.e. 14 at that point?
 
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Depending on how canny and obsessed with the idea of his own blood on the throne, and after the Gwayne approach fails. Otto could angle to use Alicent friendship with Rhaenyra, to betroth a child of hers to one of Rhaenyra own children. Otto already knows Rhaenyra sees the benefits of long tem strategic marriages at least.
I would suggest again the idea that if we're going to maintain close ties with Alicent, then we should consider the possibility of finding her a match with someone who we'd also like good ties with, since as our good friend she'd be a voice in our favor in court. As crown princess and as her friend we'd probably be able to find her a better match and/or one she'd like more then what Otto would be able to get her by himself, and if we find her a match with someone prominent like a Lord Paramount then Otto might even feel he owes us a solid.

Jason Lannister seems like a potential match in that regard, and it would be a rather ironic fit to given that Viserys just married Jason's canonical wife.
 
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I would suggest again the idea that if we're going to maintain close ties with Alicent, then we should consider the possibility of finding her a match with someone who we'd also like good ties with, since as our good friend she'd be a voice in our favor in court. As crown princess and as her friend we'd probably be able to find her a better match and/or one she'd like more then what Otto would be able to get her by himself, and if we find her a match with someone like a Lord Paramount then Otto might even feel he owes us a solid.
I agree with you, its a solid argument when we ask Otto for Alicent come with us in the royal progress. (Also double funny, because Otto knows Rhaenyra can find good matches because she derailed his own plans)
 
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Turn 4: Results
Adhoc vote count started by Teen Spirit on Aug 17, 2024 at 8:47 AM, finished with 147 posts and 46 votes.


Turn 4: Results


You cracked shields with a blunted morning star, broke lances against targets, struggled against trained men determined to knock you off your horse, and sparred against your sworn shield with swords and axes. He knocked you down more times then you could count. To your credit, you were knocking Ser Tarly down plenty of times yourself. Your improvements are not coming as quick as when you started training with Tarly, but you do see some change. Refinements instead of vast improvements, but when it came to fighting, even the smallest difference could completely change an outcome.

Elsewhere, you did notice more significant changes. Mainly in yourself. You had always been taller than most girls, with muscles more comparable to squires three years your senior, but you still cut the figure of a girl for the most part, albeit one with broader shoulders than most. Recently however, you've noticed things were started to change. The usual dresses no longer fit, much to the frustration of your attending servants. You're hungrier than you have ever been before, even on days with little to no training. The thickness of your arms kept growing and your whole body has gained a small but notable degree of bulk, even as you're getting taller. It is not fat, though you hear many whispers behind your back slandering it as such. Ser Tarly told you to ignore it, saying that a future ruler should cut a figure more like Aegon the Conqueror than his weak son Aenys.

The mockery frustrated you, but it is nothing new. Men and women alike had been sneering at you since you first started walking around with bloody knuckles and a broken nose. A few stares because you requested another chicken at dinner hardly mattered at this point.

Your Prowess has Improved


After another day of training, you decided to rest in the Godswood. You were laying against a tall oak tree, half asleep, as you heard the sound of Alicent approaching.

"How can you be so relaxed with all that's happening at court?" She asked as she stood above you.

"I'm not relaxed. I'm tired," you replied as you stood up, every muscle in your back and arms filled with a dull ache. Armor has a heft to it, but once your trained it's easy to endure. For the first few hours at least. After a while, all the metal could take quite the toll on anyone, no matter how fit.

"How are you feeling about all this?" Alicent asked, her brown eyes wide with worry. "It feels like so much has changed in such a short amount of time."

"I will not have to endure the thought of calling a girl two years my junior 'step-mother'," you deadpanned. "So, whatever misgivings I have, I can find solace in that."

After your conversation with your father that night, you left with no expectations for who he would pick beyond it being clear it would not be the Vypern lady. Westerling didn't worry you as much as the Tyrell woman, but her family was still powerful. Her family may have had a few rougher years as of late, something this marriage would certainly correct, but they were still very well regarded in the Westerlands and viewed as peers with the Reynes and Marbands.

"I would have greatly preferred if my father never remarried," you confessed, "but I am most glad Laena has been spared and I do not have endure the nobles of the realm treating my father like a piece of venison brought before a starved bear."

You couldn't deny the dread you felt at the thought of your father remarrying to a woman who he bore no affection for. And the sight of Lannisters and and their bannermen replacing people who, whatever your disagreements with them, had been kin, sat strangely with you. The last of Valyria had been replaced with the blood of Lann the Clever and their bannermen.

"I must admit, Johanna Westerling was a very unusual choice by your father, " Alicent agreed. "Though a far better decision than the likely alternatives."

Alicent smiled at the thought. It was small but genuine, her shoulders slack from a lack of tension.

You thought back to your conversation with father, when you poured your fears out to him, and for a moment you feared your most baseless fears had merit.

"Did you worry he would ask for your hand?" You dared.

Alicent's expression faltered and filled with fear.

"What-what are you saying?" Alicent said in disbelief.

"My father mentioned he had been tempted," you explained. "Apparently your conversations with him had been a fair source of comfort."

You really wish you could have avoided talking about this at all but it was just too important to ignore.

"Is that what he said?" Alicent turned away, refusing to look at you as she began to pick at her fingertips. "Rhaenyra, you must understand. I had no intention of keeping secrets from you-"

"Father mentioned he asked you to keep it from me," you finished.

You wanted to be mad at him for what he did. He had gone behind your back to talk with your friend. Even if you had been estranged at the time, it was a gross violation of your trust. But not only was your father the King and thus well within his rights to do such a thing, he was an grieving man struggling with wounds to his very soul. You had seen it for yourself. Your mother's death had left you grieving, but had left your father a husk of the man he was.

Your father had been so easy going before. A man who would spend much of his small council meetings telling jokes and stories as he snacked on hard-boiled eggs before finally dealing with matters of the realm. No council meeting had felt like that since the day your mother died.

He clearly needed support, you knew that all too well, and your father made it clear she had helped him a fair deal. But this whole thing sat poorly with you.

"He told you?" Alicent sighed with relief. "That is great to hear. Rhaenyra, you must believe I would have told you if the King had not forbidden me from doing so.

"I do." Your words clearly brought Alicent more relief from tension she must have been keeping inside herself for months, which made you rather regret what you had to say next.

"But that leaves me wondering," you went on. "Why did you go to my father first?"

"Pardon?" Alicent asked as the fear rushed back into her.

"It took you months to talk to me about my mother's death and that was only after I chased you down," you explained.

"And I told you I deeply regretted not talking to you sooner," Alicent defended herself.

"So, why did you talk to my father so much before then?" You pressed on, frustration creeping into your voice. "I know things between us were strained, but you were my friend. Since when did you put my own father over me?"

"That was not my choice!" Alicent's voice dropped to a near whisper despite the frantic energy in her words.

"I--" The words caught in your throat as you mind tried to make sense of it. "I don't understand."

What did she mean by that? Did your father force her to give him emotional comfort? That didn't make any sense.

Alicent looked around frantically, making sure the Godswood was empty.

The air was still. The only sounds were breaths of the two of you and the occasional rustling of something moving through the leaves, but there was no hint of anyone nearby.

"You deserve the truth," Alicent said, still almost whispering, "but not here. Or at least not now."

"Why?" You asked, for lack of a better response.

"I don't want others hearing what I have to say," Alicent insisted. "It could make more trouble for the both of us."

This was getting even more bewildering by the moment.

"Very well," you said skeptically, too tired to consider forcing the issue. "Where shall we talk then?"

"I don't know," Alicent replied. "Name a time and a location and I will meet you there."

You wanted to groan over the fact you had to be the one to set the location. It was her secret after all. But the desperation in Alicent's eyes made it clear this was important.

There were three options that immediately came to mind. First would be to simply return to the Godswood at night. The place was generally empty of people that late and there were spots enough to ensure privacy, but that would require getting out of the Red Keep in the evening. Doable, but it was likely someone would spot you leaving, which could raise questions for the both of you.

Next you could simply go to her room in the evening. Getting Alicent into Meagor's Holdfast and the Royal Apartments would have been difficult, but you should have been able to leave and return with relatively little trouble. Little chance of guards seeing you, but the servants might, and they were known to gossip.

Finally, with the wedding celebrations getting underway, there was a fair bit of hawking going on. While royal and noble women couldn't go hunting normally, falconry was acceptable for ladies of your status and your knew step-mother had a passion for it. If you waited for Johanna to organize some hawking, the two of you could simply go out with the group and then make excuses to separate yourself and find a quite spot in the Kingswood to talk. The risks of being caught seemed low, but if you were, it could draw far more attention then your other options.

Where do you meet Alicent?

[] In the Godswoods, during the hour of ghosts.

[] Back in her Apartments.

[] In the Kingswood, during a hunt.

[] Write-in (Subject to QM approval)


You volunteered to help organize your father's wedding, in part to ensure the affair was not entirely dominated by Westerlings and Lannisters, but also because you had very little experience with weddings in general. You couldn't even remember the last one you attended.

As much as you weren't ready to really think about your own wedding, it couldn't hurt to at least see what would be expected of you in time.

The Westerlings accepted your help eagerly and in great spirits, though they struggled to find a role for your for a while.

It quickly became apparent to everyone that when it came to manners of dresses and jewelry, you were, in the eyes of the Westermen, rather limited. You were a Targaryen. You generally dressed in reds and blacks, occasionally white as well, and more often then not your jewels and even your clothing had draconic elements or theme. It was your family's style and it was what worked for you. You had yet to see a dress that could not be improved by scales along the shoulders or arms. But Johanna and her family did not approve of that. They wanted golden jewels and "warmer" colors, which confused you to no end as what could be warmer than fire?

After your efforts to add scale patterns to the wedding dress were rejected, you found yourself tasked with assistanting the seating charts. Seating was an important part of any wedding and could have vast political implications, so the role was an honor. There was just one issue. You were a girl, almost an adult, but not quite in the eyes of the realm. Girls could get bored rather easily, even with important matters. Perhaps especially with important matters. And you had a acquired over the years something of a reputation for being disruptive when bored and or annoyed, which led to worries you might try to have fun with the seating. Putting Brackens next to Blackwoods, Florents next to Tarlys, or Boltons next to anyone besides Northern houses that were more used to their behavior.

You had no idea where these fears came from or why people thought that beating up boys who refused to act with proper respect was remotely comparable to intentionally disrupting a wedding and you protested as such. Never the less, after a day you were reassigned yet again.

Eventually, you ended up assisting the Master of Coin, Lord Beesbury, with ensuring the cooks and other servants brought in for wedding itself were properly paid. The work was tedious and dull, but Beesbury did seem to appreciate the assistance.

You were asked for your input on one more manner. While most of the wedding feast was to be held in the Castle's gardens, as a way to enjoying Summer while they could as rumors built that the Citadel would soon declare it was Autumn, there was some dispute between Johanna, her father, and your father over where the actual vows should be exchanged.

Your father, who was largely uninvolved with the details of the wedding until now, wanted the vows to be exchanged in the gardens, with you on Syrax flying overhead while the High Septon spoke. It was clear your father wanted to demonstrate to the realm that your house was still quite powerful, even after everything that had happened the past year.

Johanna on the other hand wanted to have the vows exchanged in the throne room. Her reasons were vague, but you got the sense she believed it would make her be seen as more of a legitimate consort in the eyes of the realm rather than just your father's second wife. This would naturally make you flying with Syrax rather pointless if it was going to be indoors.

Lastly, her father wanted the vows to be done in the sept, as he believed anything else might be considered an insult to the High Septon's honor, demanding him to officiate a ceremony outside the halls of the Seven.

While things were civil between all three parties, you could tell things had reached an impass when they asked you to play tie breaker.

Relationship with Lord Beesbury Improved.

Relationship with Lady Johanna Established.

Where do you think Vows should be Exchanged?


[] Agree to your father's suggestion. It will be held in the garden's with you flying overhead.

[] Agree to Lady Johanna's suggestion. It will be held in the throne room.

[] Agree to Lord Westerling's suggestion. It will be held in the Sept.


You had barely spoken to Lady Johanna at all in the weeks since she arrived. After exchanging greetings when she arrived, you made some small talk with her at the feast that night, but since then you had rarely said anything to her beyond requesting permission to help organize the wedding.

It wasn't as though you were intentionally avoiding her, or at least you were pretty sure it wasn't intentional. You just weren't quite sure how to begin a conversation with this woman. She would never replace your mother, everyone knew that, but she was still filling her spot. As you mulled it over, you found yourself resenting that. Resenting that this wedding was happening at all.

Eventually, fate forced your hand as Lord Beesbury needed Johanna's approval for some added expense. Some food brought in had gone bad earlier than expected and the cooks needed to buy new supplies.

You made your way to her apartments within the holdfast, thankfully not your mother's, she had the respect to avoid that, instead taking up one of the disused ones that probably belonged to one of your great aunts or uncles a few decades ago.

Ser Rickard Thorne of the Kingsguard stood guard over Johanna's apartment.

"Princess," he greeted flatly at your approach.

"Ser Thorne," you replied evenly. "I need to see Lady Westerling."

You didn't care much for Thorne and you suspected the feeling was mutual. The now Lord Commander Westerling may not have approved of your behavior or the fact you repeatedly got into fights with the stableboys when you were younger, but he was always gentle about it. Not Thorne though. Whenever it was him who found you, he all but dragged you to your father.

Ser Rickard opened the door.

"The Princess Rhaenyra here to see you, my lady," he called in.

"Let her in," Lady Johanna replied back.

The Kingsguard gestured you inside.

The first thing you noticed about Johanna's apartment was the cats. There were three cats with her in the room. Two calico ones sat on her bed, while a one with long black hair stared at you from an empty shelf.

Johanna herself sat at the foot of her bed, dressed in a simple sand colored dress, as she stared at a stone figurine of a dragon she was holding. One of your father's figurines you realized.

"Greetings, Princess," Johanna said, still distracted by the figure. "It is good of you to stop by."

"The rat catchers are gonna be upset with you," you said jokingly as you gestured to the cats on the bed. "They'll feel like they're being replaced."

Westerling looked up from the figure.

"Yes, I've already gotten one complaint," she said with a half smile. "Apparently, the rat catchers don't care for professional competition."

"Lord Beesbury wanted your approval to use some of the reserve money that had been set aside," you explained your presence.

"What for?" She questioned as she petted one of the calico cats.

"Food. One of the deliveries went-" you began.

"Granted," Johanna said quickly. "If there's one thing guests will remember, it's if they found their meals lacking."

"I will let the Master of Coin know," you nodded while your gaze turned towards the stone dragon in her hands. "Is that one of my father's miniatures?"

"Ah, yes," Johanna nodded. "Your father was showing me his grand project the other day. Fascinating thing I must admit. I don't know much of Valyria, but I can admire the skill your father puts into it and his dedication to his craft."

"That is good to hear," you smiled at her praise for your father. "Make sure you tell him that, he is quite proud of his work."

"Of course," she nodded.

For a moment things grew silent and awkward as the two of you struggled to find something to say.

Finally you broke the growing tension. "How are you adjusting to the Red Keep, my lady?"

Johanna stood up, the future queen nearly a head shorter than you so she had to look up to keep eye contact.

"I must admit, I feel out of sorts in this place," she confessed. "I am surrounded by echos of a culture I know little about."

"I can see why it must feel like a drastic change," you replied. "You will be the first queen from the Westerlands after all."

"I'll be the first Queen who doesn't have your white hair," Johanna replied. "Not counting Meagor and his stolen brides."

You were going to argue for a moment but she was right. Most queens before now had been Velayron or were sisters to the King and all those had Valyrian hair. Your mother was an Arryn, but her mother in turn had been a Targaryen, so her hair was as white as yours.

The mention of Meagor caught your interest though.

"I hope that bit of ugly history didn't sour your family's perception of my father's offer," you said.

The tale of Jeyne Westerling and the other Black Brides was old, but hardly forgotten.

"Some were skeptical because of that, yes," Johanna admitted, "but this was simply too great an honor to ignore. You don't refuse a chance to become Queen."

"I'm sure you'll make a--" You paused for a moment as you struggled to finish your sentence. "A fine one." Thankfully Johanna did not seem to notice, or if she did, she said nothing.

"Oh, I am beyond grateful for this. I had spent my life thinking the highest prospect I had for marriage was Jason Lannister," there was a hint of disgust in Johanna's voice."Viserys has honored me in a way I never dreamed possible."

You took a few steps towards Johanna only to be hit multiple times across the side of your head by a firm paw.

You turned in bewilderment to see the black cat looking down at you from it's shelf, utterly uncaring that it had just struck the Crown Princess.

"Lancel! Don't do that!" Johanna said in light outrage. "I apologize, princess. Lancel is always to quick to defend me."

"It's fine," you replied as you stepped away, more confused by the experience then anything else.

"I do apologize for not speaking to you sooner, princess," Johanna said apologetically. "I realize how upsetting my presence must be for you."

"It's fine," you insisted. "My father needs to remarry, even if we are both still in pain."

There was a look of understanding in Johanna's eyes.

"Losing a mother at our age is a terrible pain," she said sympathetically. "One I've had to endure myself."

That honestly made you feel a lot better, knowing Johanna understood your situation, and how complicated your feelings towards her and the marriage might be.

"I must admit it is interesting to meet you in the flesh. Finally." Johanna shifted to a new topic. "You are quite the interesting figure, princess."

"Oh?" you raised an eyebrow, interesting could mean a lot of things. You've heard men call you that more than once only to later insult you behind your back or call you a freak to your face.

"I've known plenty of women who are trained in combat," Johanna explained, "but I do not believe I have ever met a woman as dedicated towards it as you are."

"I wasn't aware women in the Westerlands trained to fight," you replied, surprised by the news.

"Not all," she said with a shrug, "but for those of us who live close to the heathens in the Iron Islands, women are expected to be able defend their homes against raiders."

That was interesting to hear. You knew there were other parts of the Seven Kingdoms that were more accepting of women fighting then the Crownlands were, particularly in the North, but you had not expected such things from the Westerlands of all places.

"I bet the Fairmen would love someone like you," Johanna remarked with a chuckle. "Don't even need your dragon. Just stick on Fair isle with your sword and the Ironborn will be running back to their longboats in no time."

She seemed honest. At the very least she didn't strike you as false. She seemed to be earnestly trying to be friendly with you and even seemed to take an interest in your father's hobbies. You had feared you would find a grasping noble, hungry for power and eager to try and push you off your rightful place as heir, but so far, you didn't see that.

You hadn't come here really sure about what you wanted to talk about with your future step-mother, but you knew you couldn't just waste this moment. You needed to talk with her about something, even if it was something as light as her cats.

Relationship with Johanna Westerling Improved

What should you talk about with Johanna?


[] She seemed interested in your father's passion project. Try and encourage that. It might give them something to bond over.

[] Talk about her home. You know little of the Crag or the Westerlands in general. Perhaps she could tell you more about them.

[] Bring up her cats. She seems quite fond of the beasts.

[] Ask how she feels about the wedding itself

[] Ask about her late mother. Maybe you could find some common ground.

[] Ask what she does in her spare time. Maybe she has an interesting hobby.

[] Bring up the elephant in the room. Ask how she feels about the line of succession and any possible kids she might have.

[] Write-in (Subject to QM Approval)


QM's Note: I must say I am quite looking forward to covering the wedding, I was worried at first but I think I can make it quite interesting for us and give you guys a lot of options. The cat's thing is purely my invention, but they seemed fitting for Johanna.
 
Let's see. My ideas:

[] In the Kingswood, during a hunt.

Safest option. Even the Godswood can have ears.


Azel's write in of the dragon pit, while tending to Syrax, is probably the better idea.

[] Agree to your father's suggestion. It will be held in the garden's with you flying overhead.

We do not want to give too much legitimacy to our stepmother (sorry), and not too much focus to the Faith. And we need a chance to show ourselves.

[] Bring up her cats. She seems quite fond of the beasts.

...okay I admit that is mostly because I am curious. But also, if she is so fond of them, we might get her to talk. And things are awkward enough that we do need an icebreaker.

[x] Plan Safe Curiosity
-[x] In the Kingswood, during a hunt.
-[X] Agree to your father's suggestion. It will be held in the garden's with you flying overhead.
-[X] Bring up her cats. She seems quite fond of the beasts.


Has been changed to [x] Plan Safe Curiosity 2.0
The change being talking to Alicent while tending to Syrax in the Dragon Pit.
 
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Oh nah, I take any praise back, this chick is a crazy cat lady.

[] Bring up her cats. She seems quite fond of the beasts.

This'll distract her for hours, long enough for us to find Syrax and smoke her.
 
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