I would like to note that Daeron II didn't have a dragon and we do, which will go a long way towards stopping any outright rebellion from breaking out.
The Heir of the Dragon: A Rhaenyra Targaryen Quest
Temes1066
To Defy Gravity you must Let It Go
- Location
- Coleraine
Yes, but so will the other side.
Which other side specifically? Daemon?
HA.
Corlys might be a genuine possibility for them, but Rhaenys is kin and we would likely be pulling Dorne's support from the Triarchy if we married Qoren, thus helping his house out.
As for our siblings, any rebellious bannermen would have to wait more than a decade at minimum for them to be old enough to reliably fight on dragonback, not win, just contest a much more experienced Rhaenyra and a bigger Syrax.
I argue it is not because they are Anti Dornish. I think a Targaryen or any Iron Throne monarch is right to always be suspicious of Tyrell. Because their political position always benefiting them hedging their bet. They are the single House with the biggest army personally sworn to them and making them always an important player even without their full Reach army. That is one of the factor influencing their political position of hedging their bet.
While mundane reason for being late is also possible. You never know but you still need Tyrell's army.
Edit* below for edit-added argument
If it is the main contention point diplomatic unification will work. Which is part of my previous argument against Conquest but for peaceful Unification. Something marriage will accelerate but is not required because be can make it just more beneficial to unify with years long economic and diplomatic effort.
It is the problem of being medieval conqueror. We need to pay our vassal in land and riches. They have expended blood and gold. They'll expect reward. What will the reward except these newly conquered land and riches or wealth extracted from it? It is what I think why Aegon I first series of Unification war works but Dorne not because his surrendering term changed from just accept my rule. Because he is An Emperor now with Empire army that feed on land, blood, and gold not just some small lord with Dragons. He gave Dorne to Tyrell his biggest army. The same thing Daeron I did and both of their Tyrell died.
We can if we explicitly exclude him from fighting something that we probably can do. If he fight he will want reward and will get it as that is the essence of medieval military service.
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Somic
It's meow or never
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Another thing I'm curious about is how our plans to have dragonrider children would coincide with having them with the Prince of Dorne. Short-term it's pretty cool, they'd be able to visit both of their parents' homelands through by far the fastest method of travel in the world! Long-term... possible dragons in Dorne?
- Location
- New York
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- He/Him
How old is Gwayne? I have a half baked idea to throw him and Laena at each other and hope it works out - but that's it's likely or their parents would approve. Son of a second so Corlys must assured dislikes is very unlikely.
Of course it would help if we ever actually met Laenor and Laenor to befriend them and hopefully involved them (and their dragons) in our plans for a stable realm.
Of course it would help if we ever actually met Laenor and Laenor to befriend them and hopefully involved them (and their dragons) in our plans for a stable realm.
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- He/Him
Gentle Reminder that Rhaenyra does not really have the authority to arrange the marriage of others. Rhaenyra barely has the authority to dictate her own marriage.
For monopoly of violence to be maintained our children if they inherit will probably need to be exclusive between inheriting Dragon or Dorne. Another possibility it will be like Canon Daeron II and Mariah and Qoren abdicate Dorne for his sibling to solely be our Consort. Or have our children outside of Dorne Inheritance line. It will probably part of our negotiation. It is a complex problem that is one of the con of Qoren marriage. While it is also a problem for all candidates that is primary heir or already ruling, our nominal vassal can be easily bullied to not take dragon.
- Location
- Earth
Over my dead body 😭
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Laenor is both 'safe' and 'unsafe,' I'd say...
- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
I don't know what you mean. There was no problem in canon. Laenor and Rhaenyra had three healthy, strong boys.
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- He/Him
I will say something to consider with Dorne is while some the Blackfyre Rebellion in Canon was borne out both general dislike of Dorne and resentment over Dorne getting very favorable terms when it joined. There's a number of other factors that will not apply here. There was lingering bitter feelings over Daeron's war and how many people the Dornish had killed during that, inculding Daeron himself and the Lord of the Reach, Daemon Blackfyre being a warrior who looked quite Targaryen while Daeron II was a scholar and his heir looked rather Dornish (Racism against the Dornish is definitely a not unheard of issue) and Aegon IV had spent basically a decade constantly implying Daeron II was not actually his son (For the record I find the idea that Daeron II was a bastard fairly absurd for multiple reasons) and even though Aegon IV was the worst, that is absolutely something people are going to believe.
Not saying a Dornish match wouldn't be without challenges. But don't expect the same challenges as canon.
Not saying a Dornish match wouldn't be without challenges. But don't expect the same challenges as canon.
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- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
@Teen Spirit , I'm wondering if I can get a definitive answer for the quest's Westeros to a question that's been bugging me.
So, Westeros has extremely long, years-long, periods of cold weather, thaw, warm weather, and gradual cooling. The locals call these 'winter, spring, summer, and autumn,' even though they're obviously very different from the winter, spring, summer, and autumn that we know in our world, the ones that only last a few months each.
To avoid ambiguity, I'm going to call the years-long Westerosi mega-seasons by capitalized words. Thus, as I write this in the northern hemisphere, it is "winter," and students have a "summer vacation." But the Starks' family motto would be written as a capitalized "Winter is coming" regardless of position in sentence, and Catelyn Stark's quip about Renly's army would be "the knights of Summer."
Basically, I sometimes get the impression from your writing that there is some semblance of a 'lowercase' seasonal cycle that "stacks" with the underlying slow irregular cycle of Seasons. Is this the case, are there 'summers-within-Winter' that are significantly warmer than the rest of the Winter, and conversely winters-within-Summers that are significantly cooler than the rest of the Summer? Because the existence of harvest patterns suggests SOME kind of regular variation of the climate that doesn't take like 5-10 years to cycle. And the fact that life is sustainable in much of Westeros at all would tend to suggest that you don't actually see continuous freezing temperatures all the time for years on end. Even in the North... I dunno.
Am I making sense?
On the other hand, Laenor does a pretty good job of nailing down the biggest unaligned or semi-aligned bloc of dragonriders, the one without which Daemon is unlikely to be able to do anything much to threaten our rule at least until Queen Johanna's kids reach majority.
It solves some of our problems, potentially decisively, while also creating new ones.
EDIT:
Like, if we marry Harwin Strong or Gwayne Hightower or some other Andal nobleman who's a plausible match, we're playing a certain kind of game for the next ten-ish years as we establish Rhaenyra firmly and, to put none too fine a point on it, wait for Viserys to die.
If we marry Laenor, we're playing a very different game.
If we marry the prince of Dorne, we're playing yet a third very different game.
Playing any one of the three games means not having some of the problems the other games have, but absolutely having special problems specific to that game in particular.
So, Westeros has extremely long, years-long, periods of cold weather, thaw, warm weather, and gradual cooling. The locals call these 'winter, spring, summer, and autumn,' even though they're obviously very different from the winter, spring, summer, and autumn that we know in our world, the ones that only last a few months each.
To avoid ambiguity, I'm going to call the years-long Westerosi mega-seasons by capitalized words. Thus, as I write this in the northern hemisphere, it is "winter," and students have a "summer vacation." But the Starks' family motto would be written as a capitalized "Winter is coming" regardless of position in sentence, and Catelyn Stark's quip about Renly's army would be "the knights of Summer."
Basically, I sometimes get the impression from your writing that there is some semblance of a 'lowercase' seasonal cycle that "stacks" with the underlying slow irregular cycle of Seasons. Is this the case, are there 'summers-within-Winter' that are significantly warmer than the rest of the Winter, and conversely winters-within-Summers that are significantly cooler than the rest of the Summer? Because the existence of harvest patterns suggests SOME kind of regular variation of the climate that doesn't take like 5-10 years to cycle. And the fact that life is sustainable in much of Westeros at all would tend to suggest that you don't actually see continuous freezing temperatures all the time for years on end. Even in the North... I dunno.
Am I making sense?
Well yes. Now, we have solutions to that (either get a male paramour, hope things don't blow up between Rhaenyra and Alicent, or sigh, accept some Stress, get a turkey baster, and make it happen between Laenor and Rhaenyra)... but either way, it's not "safe."
On the other hand, Laenor does a pretty good job of nailing down the biggest unaligned or semi-aligned bloc of dragonriders, the one without which Daemon is unlikely to be able to do anything much to threaten our rule at least until Queen Johanna's kids reach majority.
It solves some of our problems, potentially decisively, while also creating new ones.
EDIT:
Like, if we marry Harwin Strong or Gwayne Hightower or some other Andal nobleman who's a plausible match, we're playing a certain kind of game for the next ten-ish years as we establish Rhaenyra firmly and, to put none too fine a point on it, wait for Viserys to die.
If we marry Laenor, we're playing a very different game.
If we marry the prince of Dorne, we're playing yet a third very different game.
Playing any one of the three games means not having some of the problems the other games have, but absolutely having special problems specific to that game in particular.
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- He/Him
This is something that was inspired by something @Azel did for the GSRP side of Cersei Quest where basically while you had overarching seasons, during the year you see different weather at various points in the year, depending on the time its wetter or hotter. occasionally in the north you get Summer snows, etc. So like Winter has times where it's not as cold as the rest of winter but it's still cold. And again, most Winters on average seem to last less than two years
The cycles aren't important right now so don't really worry about it.
- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
What is your logic there? The Daynes have been raiding Hightower lands for literal millennia (due to how ASOIAF history works). It's not the Marches, but it still is a border region that is regularly seeing raids coming down from the Dornish mountains. Oldtown may not build its entire identity on hating the Dornish like the Marches do, but there clearly is no love lost there.
Of course, the Reach didn't fight as unified force in either the Dance or the Blackfyre Rebellion, so I doubt they will in our hypothetical dance. But even the Oakhearts on the literal opposite side of the Reach, near the Westerlands, have an ancestral hatred of the Dornish. Aligning with Dorne probably would put the majority of the Reach against us.
And Reach/Westerlands is a deadly combination on the enemy side.
Going by that logic we don't need to worry about a Dance at all, we can just burn them.
Nah, if there is a Dance, it will have Dragons, or it won't be able to happen at all. I think the logic that if there is a succession struggle, the enemy side will have Valyrian blood and hence the same ability to ride dragons, that very much is sound and we need to take that into consideration.
We can't say "Oh we will just burn all our enemies", but then pay no consideration to what bloc actually has the dragons. That doesn't make sense. Laenor would lock that shit down.
- Location
- Earth
Exactly. A Laenor match indicates support/continuation of doctrine of exceptionalism by marrying a male Valyrian over any other options. It indicates a belief that Rhaenys was treated unfairly and a unification of two rival lines of claimants
An Andal match is building a power base outside of Dragons and also represents a continuation of other marriage policies - Targs have already married Andals in small quantities, but this would still be significant.
And the Dornish match speaks for itself
- Location
- Germany
Precisely that the Reach was never really united on just about anything at all since the end of the Gardners. A starus quo that will last all the way to Aerys II. There's always other political concerns than ancient grudges to consider, they are not dwarves after all, so we only need to find the right leverage to get some of the houses on our side.
There's just no reason to immediately catastrophise that we lose the whole Reach.
- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
Question: Why would it work from the Dornish side?
Like, "peaceful unification" is a lofty PR term for what is, in essence, submitting to Targaryen rule. Why should the Dornish do that?
Yes, the Dornish did so in canon...
...by a match made right after Daeron I's invasion, to ensure peace. Indeed, the Dornish even ignored their own succession laws there to make that match work. The Dornish won that war, but it was much more devastating to them than it was to the Targaryen Realm. They wanted peace, and thus took the chance to get the best deal of becoming part of the realm they could.
But without that prior, devastating invasion gutting Dornish lands... they have no incentive. There is no reason why Westeros should be "united" (i.e., brought to Targaryen heel). There is no idealistic point to "unification". The Martells have no obligation to do away with that border, or give up their sovereignty. That is not in itself a moral good, and I'd even argue independent Dorne is the greater moral good from the outside.
Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken.
The Dornish only bent the knee after Daeron I brought the horrors of war to them. You speak of innocent blood being spilled, the treasury being drained and the realm being destabilized, but in essence it took that in canon to bring Dorne into the fold a single generation later. Without that, well, we may get a Dornish match - but that most likely won't mean unification. It just means a match with an outside principality. Which is something that happens all the time.
Which in fact even puts in question how firmly that match would place Dorne, as an outside principality, on our side in any hypothetical Dance.
- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
I feel like if there is anything that can bring the Reach together it is in fact Dorne (being on the other side). Oh sure, you are completely right in that it won't be House Tyrell leading the Reach into the enemy camp. But it will be just about every little part and House of the Reach having their own individual reasons for joining up with the other side, and their distaste for the Dornish pushing them there.
Maybe not the Upper Mander, you know, Tumbleton and Bitterbridge and all that. But very likely the Hightower directly bordering the Daynes.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Yeah sure, I just wanted to know that the big-cycle-little-cycle thing was going on and exists.
Among other things, it helps confirm to me one of the reasons the Tyrells are so powerful. Being a lot farther south and in a big agricultural breadbasket, they're going to be one of the few parts of Westeros where during the Winter you can reliably get in enough of a crop to have some surplus grain to ship out on river barges or whatever. That's huge because it means that just when everyone else is in severe danger of running out of food, the Tyrells can basically charge what they like for grain. No wonder they're rich as fuck.
If Winter was just uniformly "actual frost temperatures" with no summer-in-Winter growing seasons through the bulk of Westeros, then this wouldn't matter nearly as much. Because winter wheat is a thing (including in real life, one can look it up), but even with winter wheat, you can't get a crop in if it's getting hit with too many regular frosts throughout its attempt at a growing season. There are limits.
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This is why I favor Harwin Strong or Laenor+Stress and other domestic friendly-or-romantically compatible Candidates. No purely political. To me Qoren and Unification through marriage is complex but still preferable than another behemoth, the Conquest of Dorne. As surely Conquest of Dorne will be finished before
Yeah that is why I prefer candidate as above. I am for Qoren+marriage unification preferentially to deny Conquest of Dorne and minorly as compatible romantic candidate. In regard to Dorne I favor mundane diplomatic thawing and cooperation with peaceful unification as a long away goal, generational even, at the dawn of space age may be. I don't prefer Gwayne though, as that complicate the Alicent and Gwayne relationship. Let's see if we can clear it in the coming turn. I prefer Laenor+Stress for the highest dragon front size.
Somic
It's meow or never
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Going by a wiki, so could be wrong, but it had been a possibility for canon Rhaenyra. Why? I've no idea.
And in this timeline, Qoren expressed interest in a match with the Targaryen heir. Sure, his idea might not be to join the rest of the kingdoms, but if we ask and find out that it isn't, this match is not happening and he has got to know it. So why?
I think it might be something of a "quit while you're ahead" situation. Sure, Dorne didn't bow, bend, or break. They paid a high price and reaped the reward of not being subjugated. But pragmatically, all it did was make them a desirable target for repeated attempts at conquest. How many burnings is their independence worth? I'm guessing that Qoren's answer, in particular, is something along the lines of "preferably none from now on" combined with "and we still get to be the only kingdom to get on board through marriage into the main line" (and likely a number of concessions).
(I am not an expert on either ASOIAF lore or actual history, so take the above as simple speculation. Also, we're going to be investigating exactly what we get from marriage possibilities this turn anyway...)
Temes1066
To Defy Gravity you must Let It Go
- Location
- Coleraine
@Susano has a point, aligning with the Dornish (an outside antagonist force) will unite the Reach againist us. I can't stress this enough the Reach has roughly 80,000 men, if those numbers are combined with the gold (and men) of Westerlands, it might be enough to bury us.
In addition, the difference between Daeron's invasion of Dorne and our invasion of Dorne is simple, we know where Daeron went wrong. If we can avoid making his mistakes, we can successfully conquer Dorne.
In addition, the difference between Daeron's invasion of Dorne and our invasion of Dorne is simple, we know where Daeron went wrong. If we can avoid making his mistakes, we can successfully conquer Dorne.
- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
Well, as I have said, I do think that was the canon reason. All you go on to say, I agree with it. But the timing is important: They won the Fifth Dornish War, but were gutted by it. So they realized defiance was no longer an option, but they were in a superb position to make peace on their terms. As you said.
But, critically, that did happen after the Fifth Dornish War. Starting with a marriage match they were so desperate to arrange in order to get peace they even set aside their own succession laws for it (Daeron II married the eldest child of the Dornish Prince).
Without that desperation for peace, that impetus just wouldn't be there. We don't know what political plans Qoren has for the marriage. For all we know he could only be offering peace with that match. In fact, that is what I'd expect. As you say, we'd find out in negotiations and I am in favour of at least negotiating with Sunspear.
But I feel like many people here are just a priori expecting it will be a Daeron II/Maron Martell situation, even while there is very few speaking for that.
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