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The Heir of the Dragon: A Rhaenyra Targaryen Quest

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The Laurent said:
On the other hand it's apparently not actually regarded as especially odd if Rhaenrya waits a few more years to get married.
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No, it's not, not at all, you're quite right.

To be clear, I'm not saying Rhaenrya should get married and start popping out babies literally ASAP.

It's just that when you are a monarch who wants to not only get to live your best life but keep living your best life long enough to die old and beloved and successful... well, dynastic considerations are a factor.

Champs said:
Oh well, if you guys already want to worry about the future, let me add one more important point to think :p ......have you guys ever thought about the possibility of the possible half-brother being.....mad..like Aerys II or Aerion Brightflame(so dangerous mad I mean), as far as I know there is a popular saying that the Gods toss a coin when a Targaryen is born to see if he will be mad or not,and I guess is more easy for someone with interests to manipulate a mad brother to try to usurp the Crown when Viserys dies and start a Dance.
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Honestly, I'd consider that a minor blessing in a way. A brother who was crazy the way Aerys II or Viserys III is would probably be easier to handle than a lot of the alternatives. Sure, it would be easy for some powerful noble house to manipulate him into trying to usurp us, but it would also be a lot harder for the usurpation attempt to rally support.

People aren't going to be lining up to help the madman overthrow the queen if the queen herself is doing a fairly good job. Sure, the specific family or clique of families who are backing him and think they can control him might profit from putting the madman on the throne, but nobody else stands to gain from that.
 
Champs said:
Oh well, if you guys already want to worry about the future, let me add one more important point to think :p ......have you guys ever thought about the possibility of the possible half-brother being.....mad..like Aerys II or Aerion Brightflame(so dangerous mad I mean), as far as I know there is a popular saying that the Gods toss a coin when a Targaryen is born to see if he will be mad or not,and I guess is more easy for someone with interests to manipulate a mad brother to try to usurp the Crown when Viserys dies and start a Dance.
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Over 300 years of rule, there have been exceptionally few Targaryens that could be considered insane
Mostly Aerys

Aerys is the one most people think of immediately when mad Targaryens come up, and he was definitely crazy late into his reign though whether he had a genetic predisposition to it isn't 100% certain
He was perfectly sane in his youth, and only started descending into paranoia when every single child he tried to have with his wife was either miscarried, stillborn or died a couple years after birth
And he didn't trip over the edge into screaming insanity until the Defiance of Duskendale where he got captured and held prisoner by one of his lords who threatened to execute him
(He wasn't exactly acting rationally before that, granted. With his decision making process essentially being "do the exact opposite of whatever Tywin tells me to do", but that wasn't really him being crazy per say, just deeply bitter and spiteful that Tywin was getting all the credit for the success of the Throne. And also kinda stupid, but again not necessarily crazy)

There have been plenty of Targaryens who were arrogant, cruel and/or just kinda stupid
But not actually that many properly insane ones
And the very fact that Aerys's instability earned him the moniker "The Mad" tells us that this was notable, not standard

Maegor for instance was undeniably ruthless, cruel and brutal to an extreme degree, but he wasn't really crazy
He didn't burn people because the voices in his head told him to do it

And Viserys (Daeny's brother not Rhaenyra's father) is another name that comes up
But while Viserys definitely has many, many issues, I don't know if he really qualifies as insane
Traumatized, desperate, angry, and an ignorant asshole sure. Insane? Eeeeh.
And his issues could really be more reliably blamed on the circumstances that he was forced to grow up in rather than just "he was born crazy"


I don't know where that phrase that the gods flip a coin to decide whether a Targaryen is born great or mad first comes from
But the vast, overwhelming majority of them were neither
So the phrase doesn't really ring true to me

Which really makes it seem less like it's in their blood in particular and more like random chance
It's not like there aren't plenty of non-Targaryen nobility who are ruthless, cruel, foolish and/or debatably crazy
 
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Just being married would calm things a lot. Having babies Is the guarantee that the rulling line will continue

And getting everything to stop with Marriage proposals would be good for Rhaenyra's stress
 
Simon_Jester said:
Something Teen Spirit pointed out that stuck in my head, when I saw this post:

It seems reasonably likely that Rhaenyra's father will live a good long while, but he won't live forever, and when he dies it will almost certainly kick off SOME version of the Dance of the Dragons, as Rhaenyra will have to fight for her throne. In canon, though, he died in 129 AC, when Rhaenyra was about 32 years old. The exact date will probably be butterflied, but the question is by how much.

If Rhaenyra has kids fairly soon, then when the day comes, they may be old enough to ride a dragon and help defend Mother's (and thus, their own) claim to the throne.

If Rhaenyra waits until she's 25-30 to have kids, that becomes unlikely, and the kids are unlikely to be relevant to the civil war except as potential hostages if the enemy gets their hands on a helpless child.

There's a lot of reasons to think very carefully about choosing a partner, and I can absolutely understand wanting to wait a while, but... this is a factor that we should probably at least consider. There are good reasons why real world monarchs and aspiring monarchs usually do not spend a long time putting off having an heir.
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So, just so I understand you correctly. You want Rhaenyra to have kids within the next year or two, meaning she'll have to marry... now? Because that's the only way her children would be old enough to throw unto a battlefield in 129 AC, even if it is on top of a dragon. Unless you're advocating for child soldiers, which I somehow doubt either Rhaenyra or the voters are going to countenance.

I can't be alone in viewing it as an absolute failure if we have to throw a 13-year old child into the meat-grinder against Daemon, Caraxes and whoever he rustles up to fight on his side.

Simon_Jester said:
To be clear, I'm not saying Rhaenrya should get married and start popping out babies literally ASAP.
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Except you totally are if my math isn't completely off.
 
Versharl said:
So, just so I understand you correctly. You want Rhaenyra to have kids within the next year or two, meaning she'll have to marry... now? Because that's the only way her children would be old enough to throw unto a battlefield in 129 AC, even if it is on top of a dragon. Unless you're advocating for child soldiers, which I somehow doubt either Rhaenyra or the voters are going to countenance.
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Except you totally are if my math isn't completely off.
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I don't know. King Viserys I may live a few years longer than he did in canon. Maybe even several years. Who knows? And, again, the Dance of the Dragons may not touch off for some years after Rhaenyra takes the throne.

Depending on how things play out, Rhaenyra's kids might have time to grow into their mid-to-late teens before a war starts, which would make them as old as, say, Daenerys in the books (not ideal, but we wouldn't be doing worse by the kid than canon was for many people).

It's just that as a matter of basic arithmetic, if Rhaenyra waits to marry and have kids until she's 25-30 (10-15 years from now, roughly), it is much more likely that her children will be helpless and not relevant in any civil war that may arise when she tries to take the throne.

Viserys I was born in 77 AC, Rhaenyra was born in 97 AC (note, Dad was having kids when he was twenty).

It's now something like 113 AC; Rhaenyra is sixteenish as I recall and Viserys I is about thirty-six.

Dad's already got some kind of nasty chronic illness; we can hope he lives another ten years, or about fifteen or so as in canon, maybe twenty but that's optimistic unless we find a way to cure his illness (which is far from a bad idea, especially if we want Rhaenyra to have a secure dynastic position when she claims the throne).

There's a reason @Teen Spirit has specifically pointed out that we reasonably may have time for a plan like "start bearing kids soon so Rhaenyra's heir is at least plausibly capable of being an effective dragonrider who can participate in the Dance of the Dragons in their own right..." but we almost certainly won't have time for that if we wait another ten years, and maybe not even another five.

I can't be alone in viewing it as an absolute failure if we have to throw a 13-year old child into the meat-grinder against Daemon, Caraxes and whoever he rustles up to fight on his side.
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I'd consider it a failure, but less of a failure than an alternative scenario:

Rhaenyra dies in a civil war. Her children (eldest age 3-8) hopefully don't get the same treatment Rhaegar and Elia's children got from Gregor Clegane. More optimistically the boys might be forced off to the Citadel and the girls may be fostered against their will to be effectively auctioned off as brides to the highest bidder by whoever beats us in that civil war.

We'd actually be lucky to get something like the canon outcome (Rhaenyra's kids end up eventually sitting the throne, as I recall), because in canon that was only possible because the claimants on both sides of the civil war were already dead as I recall.

If Rhaenyra had to fight for her throne right now on dragonback you could reasonably argue that she was a child soldier. She herself would still argue that it was far preferable for the alternative.
 
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Simon_Jester said:
Dad's already got some kind of nasty chronic illness; we can hope he lives another ten years, or about fifteen or so as in canon, maybe twenty but that's optimistic unless we find a way to cure his illness (which is far from a bad idea, especially if we want Rhaenyra to have a secure dynastic position when she claims the throne).
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IIRC we've been told this isn't possible for our character.
 
Lads, in episode 2, Viserys mentions Rhaenyra that Rhaenyra is 15, before Alicent gets married to Viserys, then in episode 3, Aegon is two years old and Alicent is visibly pregnant with Helaena, which shows that nearly three years have passed and Rhaenyra is 17-18, and then in episode 4, Rhaenyra has a tour of the seven kingdoms to find a husband and cuts it short by two months, which shows that at least almost a year has passed making her 18-19, she is married to Laenor and some time after that Jacerys is born to Rhaenyra from Harwin.

We are freshly 16, we can afford to wait a few years, since Jace is a 15-16 by the time the Dance rolls around and his egg born dragon Vermax is a decently sized dragon.

Mayhaps a year would be optimal? I mean since the main three options are Gwayne, Harwin and Laenor, it would take around a year from now for our progress to even arrive to Driftmark and betroth to Laenor, and we would likely want some time to get to know Harwin and Gwayne and become friends with them if we want them instead.

Two years would be fine and also morally good, but if we want to be optimal and pragmatic, a year would be better.

Also keep in mind at 15 our Rhaenyra was considered a skilled dragon rider though not on the level of Daemon and Rhaenys.
 
Teen Spirit said:
You can give Viserys more years then he had in canon.
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More years, yes, but we can't cure him, right?

Also, although this is a bit metagame-y and isn't something we should consider as a factor IC, but it's not strictly advantageous to prolong his life past a certain point, because it's likely that we are our own strongest soldier. Ideally the Dance to kicks off when our kids are old enough to be combatants but we're still in our prime.

Zimmerwald1915 said:
Partisans of Scholar-nyra will always have much to regret, yes.
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tbh I like that we don't have a clear Golden Path to aim for? If we could cure Viserys or diplo avert the Dance that'd risk being boring.
 
hailcapital said:
More years, yes, but we can't cure him, right?

Also, although this is a bit metagame-y and isn't something we should consider as a factor IC, but it's not strictly advantageous to prolong his life past a certain point, because it's likely that we are our own strongest soldier. Ideally the Dance to kicks off when our kids are old enough to be combatants but we're still in our prime.
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Yeah at the moment Rhaenyra doesn't even believe his illness is that bad, worriesome but certainly not fatal. And helping him would require a fair amount of work. And we're only a few years away from when Adult Reasonabilties are gonna start seriously eating into the action economy.
 
Teen Spirit said:
Yeah at the moment Rhaenyra doesn't even believe his illness is that bad, worriesome but certainly not fatal. And helping him would require a fair amount of work. And we're only a few years away from when Adult Reasonabilties are gonna start seriously eating into the action economy.
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Uggghhhhhhhh, the action economy is already tight as it is! (Granted, I'm just griping, and quite possibility relating to Rhaenyra a little too much.)
 
Omegahugger said:
In practice, we're gonna give him a heart attack any day now by recklessly jumping into situations were people thrust swords and other pointy objects at us.
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Yeah, I'm a bit worried about us doing the Tourney thing practically right after Viserys sent us that letter. Yes, a Tourney isn't real combat, but it is still dangerous - likely more dangerous than training, as people are going to be going harder with something on the line, and since we're a mystery knight nobody is going to be holding back to ensure they don't hurt the heir.

One thing we might need to be careful of is that it's not inconceivable that Viserys could disinherit us in favor of a son if our relationship degrades too far - in F&B he threatens Rhaenyra with it over her taking too long to marry & at first refusing Laenor. In HOTD he's considering it when Aegon is 2 and it's Alicent who talks him out of it, and we cannot realistically expect Johanna to do the same. I think quest!Rhaenyra is a lot more dutiful and responsible than canon!Rhaenyra… but some of the duties she does are the wrong gendered ones. I'm not really sure how much Viserys actually likes canon or quest Rhaenyra and how much his loyalty to seeing her on the throne is trying to undo or make up for Aemma's death in spite of her.

Losing that would probably not be game over but it'd be pretty bad.
 
hailcapital said:
Yeah, I'm a bit worried about us doing the Tourney thing practically right after Viserys sent us that letter.
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Keep in mind what Viserys wrote, though. Of course, we can't look into his heart of hearts, but as per what he has written, he isn't displeased with us over gender stuff. He explicitly says that. It isn't that it improper for a woman of his family to decapitate a traitor in a trial by combat. His ire was that it is improper for the royal heir to do that, because Targaryen royals are not supposed to do that themselves, they have the Kingsguard for that. Basically, we lessened ourselves by doing the deed ourselves, at least in Viserys' estimation.

However, entering tourneys, now that is something royal heirs do all the time. Even entering tourneys as mystery knights is nothing unheard of for Targaryens. We might still trouble him with worries about our safety, but in this, we are in fact behaving as is proper for the heir of the Kingdom. At least if Viserys wrote honestly that it isn't about the gender stuff.
 
hailcapital said:
Yeah, I'm a bit worried about us doing the Tourney thing practically right after Viserys sent us that letter. Yes, a Tourney isn't real combat, but it is still dangerous - likely more dangerous than training, as people are going to be going harder with something on the line, and since we're a mystery knight nobody is going to be holding back to ensure they don't hurt the heir.

One thing we might need to be careful of is that it's not inconceivable that Viserys could disinherit us in favor of a son if our relationship degrades too far - in F&B he threatens Rhaenyra with it over her taking too long to marry & at first refusing Laenor. In HOTD he's considering it when Aegon is 2 and it's Alicent who talks him out of it, and we cannot realistically expect Johanna to do the same. I think quest!Rhaenyra is a lot more dutiful and responsible than canon!Rhaenyra… but some of the duties she does are the wrong gendered ones. I'm not really sure how much Viserys actually likes canon or quest Rhaenyra and how much his loyalty to seeing her on the throne is trying to undo or make up for Aemma's death in spite of her.

Losing that would probably not be game over but it'd be pretty bad.
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I will note that we're impossibly, comically far from that.
 
i just remembered that, with the new lil sibs coming, there was the question of cradle eggs. is Rhaenyra going to be the one to pick those out? giving one of them Baelon's cradle egg is probably out of the question.

...has Syrax laid any eggs???
 
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