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I don't think we want anything as big as the Marauder for utility. This is more what I was thinking of:


Edit: But with wayyyyyyy wider feet.

Ok, I can see that. This is definitely a design we could probably pull off quickly. The marauder is a bit pie in the sky.

Although I have to agree about the feet. Unless we are using those things as pickaxes, I would hope we spread out our weight a bit better.

..... I'm now imagining us using these mechs for defense, and just equipping them with these knife feet. I mean, those things look deadly enough
 
Wait I just got a PR idea for the underwater mechs: purposfuly bias the pilot selection to female so we can build smaller cockpits and use pictures of the prettier ones for propaganda and international advertising when we eventually start exporting last Gen models.
 
Wait I just got a PR idea for the underwater mechs: purposfuly bias the pilot selection to female so we can build smaller cockpits and use pictures of the prettier ones for propaganda and international advertising when we eventually start exporting last Gen models.

It's not a good idea: The cockpits need to be sized to fit a wide variety of body types as a practical consideration. Also feels kind of sleazy.
 
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If you guys are gonna go for a new naval design, just remember we still have the +4 to designing a ship from that one omake i did. So it's best if it's either a destroyer (which is way better in fighting submarines in an ASW role imo), or a submarine which would be more useful if we're the ones in the offensive role. DD for defense but SS for offense. Submarines suck more when fighting other submarines compared to a surface ship that's faster and less fragile, not to mention a destroyer can also mount torpedo systems, maybe even better ones considering we might be able to design a VLS that launches torpedos into the air before it dives into the water much closer to the target.

On the other hand, submarines are great if we're dealing with threats from large fleets, especially carriers. So you gotta decide based on what you think we'll be fighting in the near future, theoretically. If you're concerned with enemy subs, go for destroyers. If you're concerned with heavier surface ships or carriers, then subs are a good choice.

Feels like we need both, though. Superpowers can field carriers and subs both, so we'll need ASW ships and subs both as well, eventually.
 
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Neat!

Choose:
[] +2 to the lowest Action in the turn after the Crisis
[] PM to create some (small) canon yourself
Tigerfish AIP Attack Submarine
Needs more shark, but otherwise great design!

+4 to Designing the Tigerfish.
Although I already know our sea mech is going to turn into a crab... Everything turns into crabs....
All Hail King Crab! Hallowed Be Its Name!
@HeroCooky, what are the odds we can get submarine nuclear reactor tech from the USSR/PRC?
Abysmal. They don't want you to have that technology.
Likewise for Soviet rocket engine technology - is that something they're sharing?
They are very much not. You'll need to pay for that, and its going to be a hell of an infuriating deal to make.
 
I'm so glad you brought this up.

Tigerfish AIP Attack Submarine
  • Initial concept evolved from Project 6633 hull from China.
  • Built for littoral combat and intercepting landing vessels or ships doing shore bombardment.
  • X-Rudder to make it easier to maneuver in shallow water without hitting the bottom with a tail plane.
  • Switched from double to single hull to save cost and make them lighter for litoral maneuvers, cylindrical cross section adopted as a result.
  • Ditched the diesel generator completely and just loaded it down with batteries.
  • Can recharge batteries from buried undersea cables near shore without coming up for air.
  • Shrouded propeller to protect from debris strikes in shallow water.
  • Iron Tiger mechanical joints tech used to create folding retractable masts and an extendible crew access cover, as well as the slip bearings on the annular electric engine.
  • Four forward torpedo tubes with double slacked torpedoes (8 torps total) do not penetrate the pressure hull and cannot be maintained while under way.
  • Batteries, torpedoes, electric engines, all outside of the habitable pressure hull - CO2 used to keep those spaces at ambient pressure to avoid sea water infiltration (and the maintenance hell that comes with).
  • Wire guided torpedoes and WEISOFT sonar processing improved on original weapons and sensor packages.
  • Rafted machinery spaces to reduce acoustic emissions.
  • Iron Tiger derived utility arms on the bottom of the hull, along with video cameras used for scientific research during peace time.
  • MASS PRODUCTION BABY

Note the folding mast in raised position, the extendable crew hatch placed on top and amidships, and the hydrodynamic cover near the bottom front that hides the manipulator arms.

So this sub is flaming garbage at offensive operations because it's got absolutely shit range, but in a defensive posture where it can loiter near shore (and it's charging cables) it will murderblender any fleet that tries to get close.

edit: Basically, what if by sheer necessity and weird situational requirements, Gunangchou actually stumbled into a... really fucking good submarine design?

Maybe make it modifiable for external hardpoints we can attach land-based iron tigers onto for clandestine/commando deployments. Maybe 1 or 2 mechs depending on weight requirements. Maybe have to modify the mechs with lighter equipment as well.
 
One Robotic, Industrialized Leap for Guangchou
One Robotic, Industrialized Leap for Guangchou
Minh Van Duc pressed the confirmation displayed on the terminal, sending the virtual commands to the rudimentary system, ensuring that the machine would perform it's tasks as a closed action loop. It would still require a human overseer to ensure the rhythm and timing stayed accurate or to stop the system should it be necessary for one reason or another, but it would largely remain mostly automated, requiring only the necessary resources and parts to do its job.

Duc would need to thank Jin again for his advice on making the programming as robust and free of errors as possible.

As he gave the go signal, one of his team members activated the machine, and together they watched the system come to life as the Action App kicked in.

While command had decided to exclude the app from being installed into the mass production unit for the Iron Tiger's computer systems, they had still instructed the original design team with continuing to develop it. And after months of updates and redesigns, the team had unveiled a more stable version for the other teams to share their opinions and suggestions on.

While it was yet to be fully suitable for mounting on a commissioned Iron Tiger platform, Duc and his team had seen a more immediate and practical use for it in their project of coming up with the Iron Tiger's manufacturing and production process. Namely, a, at the very least, partially automated mech assembly line using the Action App to program in simple movements and commands to allow the assembly to go with minimal human input.

As a proof-of-concept, they had converted one of the original laufpanzer prototypes into of the said machines. Modified into a machine programmed with assembling and attaching the limb components onto the Iron Tiger torsos, the process was completed with minimal fuss and time. Better yet, they'd gleaned some important insights into how they'd be able to adapt the automated process with handling the more fragile internal components.

In particular, one of Duc's teammates had proposed a way to be able to convert the mass production model's arm components into the more complex leg components, and theoretically perhaps the other way around as well. Their project had since gotten more attention from both military and civilian representatives and experts due to the sheer practicality promised. With the incoming additional resource and manpower allotments as a result, Duc now had just a bit more time to work on Zhuque.

But first, it was time to celebrate.


Note: just an idea I had from the Action App equipment proposal from @Doccer. @HeroCooky this alright?
 
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I think we got the first thing I feel confident letting into the civilian market.
Will this help or hinder our people in the short term HeroCooky?
 
Tigerstripe Submarine - Design Proposal
-Operation: CAT FISH-
-TOP SECRET-

Final Synopsis on CAT FISH Anti-US Domestic Submarine Research Task Force


To: Great Leader Wei Jungmin

With the Iwo Jima indecent and the related increase in funding for operations and research focusing on guaranteeing defense against the United States of America, we have finally finished the report your late father ordered on a submarine design to "beat those capitalist subs 1 on 1 and take back the Hawaiian islands!" Unfortunately, TMDPRoG.LoAN,DoH,aPoE simply does not have the resources, shipyards, or manpower nessecary to operate a fleet of submarines capable of matching the new Los Angles-class in capability even if we were given nuclear technology, nor do we have the ability to win the arms race that would assuredly follow us making a superior submarine capable of reaching the west coast of the United States of America, diesel-electric or not. In addition, the percentage risk of nuclear retaliation from taking the Hawaiian islands has been calculated at 99.99999%. The full 3,762 page report can be found on the secure network as Report: CAT FISH.

However, restricting the operating area that is needed to be covered to just the waters nessecary to ensure the defense of TMDPRoG.LoAN,DoH,aPoE, the requirements become much more achievable as the shorter distance between operations and port means that the endurance needed for long duration missions across the Pacific Ocean are no longer nessecary, in particular the fuel tanks and the torpedo reload stocks can be cut back immensely. In addition, the cut back to operational range will not affect the tactical ability of a submarine that much either, as with the end of the age of battleships it is unlikely that any of the American ships or submarines other than their super-carriers and the last few remaining battleships would survive more than 2 well placed torpedoes, and many others may be sunk by just 1.

To that end, our team would like to present our proposal for a submarine to ensure the defense of TMDPRoG.LoAN,DoH,aPoE's waters, designed with the purpose of filling the space saved from the reduced endurance requirements with as much sonar and sonar protection as possible to ensure a continuous dominance of the information side of submarine combat in order to ensure any combat starts on our terms with surprise on our side, and that every one of the limited torpedoes is effective, while also increasing the likelihood of any submarine making it back to port by reducing the chance of detection. In addition there are four new technologies that the team has deduced would be a major benefit if they could be integrated into the design.

Tigerstripe-class Littoral Attack Submarine.
Teardrop shaped single hull displacing no more than 1500t submerged for reduced cost and improved underwater performance.
Diesel-electric power with a retractable snorkel to allow recharging of batteries while at periscope depth.
4 533mm torpedo tubes, with space for 6 more reloads, compatible with the torpedoes used by the Chinese submarines if the section below does not pan out.
X-shaped rudder for easier operating in shallow depths without striking the seafloor.
The best sonar we can get in it, with a retractable towed array to make it even better.
The capability to wire-guide two torpedoes at once, if we have access to torpedoes capable of using it.
Make the electronics Iron Tiger-class for extra resilience, with a modified Tigerlink system with screens for each station's specific instruments, connecting everything to also give the Captain a clear, concise overview of the entire situation on their own terminal.
Mounting all vibrating machinery possible rafted on vibration absorbing materials like rubber.
Anechoic tiles lining the outside to further reduce sound and sonar returns.

As for the proposed new technologies:

Often times the propeller is the loudest part of the submarine, more so if it's cavitating. Dr. {REDACTED} believes that if they replace the usual propeller propulsion with a pump-jet system, they can get more speed out of the Tigerfish with less noise and cavitation, especially at the shallow depths around our coasts where cavitation happens at lower speeds, while also providing some protection against striking the blades on debris in shallow waters.

Dr. {REDACTED} is championing designing a new 533mm fully electric torpedo, which she claims will allow for much quieter "swim-out" launches to be done safely rather than a noisy compressed gas firing sequence while also removing the torpedo's wake. Should we put the effort into designing a whole new torpedo, she is of the opinion that we should go all the way, and make it capable of targeting both surface vessels and submarines with both passive and active acoustic homing, equipped with a magnetic detonator and capable of being wire guided.

Dr. {REDACTED} is considering making as much of the hull out of titanium alloy or another non-magnetic alloy. While he notes that this would increase the cost of the Tigerfish by a significant amount, that is partially ameliorated by it's small size, while also giving the submarine a deeper safe depth and making it less likely to show up on aircraft mounted magnetic anomaly detectors.

I am currently running tests on whether the Iron Tiger fuel and engines would be more suited for the what we would require of them as battery chargers, or whether the associated costs would not be worth any gains made and it would be better to stick with the conventional diesel engines for generating electricity.

Dr. {REDACTED}
Dr. {REDACTED}
Dr. {REDACTED}
Dr. {REDACTED}
 
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If you guys are gonna go for a new naval design, just remember we still have the +4 to designing a ship from that one omake i did. So it's best if it's either a destroyer (which is way better in fighting submarines in an ASW role imo), or a submarine which would be more useful if we're the ones in the offensive role. DD for defense but SS for offense. Submarines suck more when fighting other submarines compared to a surface ship that's faster and less fragile, not to mention a destroyer can also mount torpedo systems, maybe even better ones considering we might be able to design a VLS that launches torpedos into the air before it dives into the water much closer to the target.

On the other hand, submarines are great if we're dealing with threats from large fleets, especially carriers. So you gotta decide based on what you think we'll be fighting in the near future, theoretically. If you're concerned with enemy subs, go for destroyers. If you're concerned with heavier surface ships or carriers, then subs are a good choice.

Feels like we need both, though. Superpowers can field carriers and subs both, so we'll need ASW ships and subs both as well, eventually.

I'm not convinced - surface ships are a lot more vulnerable to air power, and torpedo tubes can also be used to launch missiles.
ASROC torpedoes could also be mounted on shore batteries.

Let me got back to you on submarine vs submarine and submarine vs destroyer, I've asked an ex-navy acquaintance of mine.

Neat!

Choose:
[] +2 to the lowest Action in the turn after the Crisis
[] PM to create some (small) canon yourself

Does anyone have any suggestions?

Needs more shark, but otherwise great design!

Tigerfish is more of a shallow water animal, so I went with that instead. :D

Abysmal. They don't want you to have that technology.
They are very much not. You'll need to pay for that, and its going to be a hell of an infuriating deal to make.

Could we trade Iron Tiger to the PRC for nuclear reactors or rocket engines?

Maybe make it modifiable for external hardpoints we can attach land-based iron tigers onto for clandestine/commando deployments. Maybe 1 or 2 mechs depending on weight requirements. Maybe have to modify the mechs with lighter equipment as well.

Can't do it chief. If we want to use it as a Iron Tiger delivery platform then we need to store them internally - the extra drag of carrying them externally will murder our range.

It's a touch unnecessary through since we're building a defensively navy, and commando raids don't have a lot of roles to play there.

TMDPRoG.LoAN,DoF,aPoE

This is such a cursed acronym. :V

Often times the propeller is the loudest part of the submarine, more so if it's cavitating. Dr. {REDACTED} believes that if they replace the usual propeller propulsion with a pump-jet system, they can get more speed out of the Tigerfish with less noise and cavitation, especially at the shallow depths around our coasts where cavitation happens at lower speeds, while also providing some protection against striking the blades on debris in shallow waters.

The advantage of a pump jet is really only felt at high speeds, so a non-nuclear sub doesn't get a lot out of it on that front. The debris strike is the bigger deal for us imo.

Dr. {REDACTED} is championing designing a new 533mm fully electric torpedo, which she claims will allow for much quieter "swim-out" launches to be done safely rather than a noisy compressed gas firing sequence while also removing the torpedo's wake. Should we put the effort into designing a whole new torpedo, she is of the opinion that we should go all the way, and make it capable of targeting both surface vessels and submarines with both passive and active acoustic homing, equipped with a magnetic detonator and capable of being wire guided.

This is a good idea.

By the way, if people want to write some omakes, the Cybersyn project team is puttering around South America after the coup in Argentina and getting them to Guangchou would be a major boon for our own digital central planning.

Also, the first mobile phone, the Altai, was released in the USSR in 1963.
 
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Almost forgot. It should be 1975 by now, give or take a year. By this point the AIDS pandemic shouldve kicked off. By '81 it'd have spread through some continents. Not sure how different it'd be in this timeline, though.

Can't do it chief. If we want to use it as a Iron Tiger delivery platform then we need to store them internally - the extra drag of carrying them externally will murder our range.

A shame, guess we'll have to settle for a larger sub. :V

Jokes aside, the commando use I was thinking of would have simply been a stepping stone. The real end goal was an underwater carrier of sorts from which we could launch fully aquatic Iron Tiger models that would conduct clandestine operations without need of air power or surface vessel transport. Not defensive, no, but a future potential offensive option. I refuse to believe we shall remain the weaker global player forever! 😤

Does anyone have any suggestions?

Why not go for the 'canon' option? Could make things more interesting. The +2 should serve as your backup option if you can't think of one. It's nice, but I'm fairly sure we can get by without the +2.
 
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By the way, if people want to write some omakes, the Cybersyn project team is puttering around South America after the coup in Argentina and getting them to Guangchou would be a major boon for our own digital central planning.

Funny you should mention this. One of the omake's I wrote mentioned British scientists in contact with scientists in Germany that ultimately had connections with laufpanzer. A potential link to Beer, perhaps?
 
Jokes aside, the commando use I was thinking of would have simply been a stepping stone. The real end goal was an underwater carrier of sorts from which we could launch fully aquatic Iron Tiger models that would conduct clandestine operations without need of air power or surface vessel transport. Not defensive, no, but a future potential offensive option. I refuse to believe we shall remain the weaker global player forever! 😤

Why not go for the 'canon' option? Could make things more interesting. The +2 should serve as your backup option if you can't think of one. It's nice, but I'm fairly sure we can get by without the +2.

>>fully aquatic Iron Tiger models

Do you mean submarines? :V

But seriously, a nuclear mothership would make more sense - it could lead to a submarine battlegroup (wolfpack?) Made of multiple battery subs and a nuclear mothership to recharge them. Possibly the mothership also has fishing equipment to extend the time the wolfpack can stay underwater (crew provisions are the main limit to the endurance of nuclear submarines).

Ah, to be clear, I was asking if people had ideas for the Canon option.

So far I've got:
-A titanium mine.
-A fissiles mine.
-Native agroforestry/permaculture practices we can adopt.
-An unusually hostile coastline (to explain why the IJN never actually managed to invade despite how much coast we would have to defend)
 
But seriously, a nuclear mothership would make more sense - it could lead to a submarine battlegroup (wolfpack?) Made of multiple battery subs and a nuclear mothership to recharge them. Possibly the mothership also has fishing equipment to extend the time the wolfpack can stay underwater (crew provisions are the main limit to the endurance of nuclear submarines).
The other issue is torps. So the motherwhip would need to have either a big stock of them, or get resupplied fairly often.
 
>>fully aquatic Iron Tiger models

Do you mean submarines? :V

But seriously, a nuclear mothership would make more sense - it could lead to a submarine battlegroup (wolfpack?) Made of multiple battery subs and a nuclear mothership to recharge them. Possibly the mothership also has fishing equipment to extend the time the wolfpack can stay underwater (crew provisions are the main limit to the endurance of nuclear submarines).

Ah, to be clear, I was asking if people had ideas for the Canon option.

So far I've got:
-A titanium mine.
-A fissiles mine.
-Native agroforestry/permaculture practices we can adopt.
-An unusually hostile coastline (to explain why the IJN never actually managed to invade despite how much coast we would have to defend)

I was thinking like a fully weaponized diving suit. Way more agile than a submarine. Also, a deep sea walker if we ever wanna do some deep sea exploration and diving. Think Subnautica Prawn Suit! :V

For canon, you should also consider less specific general tech. Something we can use for various industries/vehicles/projects/etc.

Maybe tech to serve as a precursor for better near-infinite non-nuclear power sources?
 
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One Robotic, Industrialized Leap for Guangchou
[] +6 to one Iron Tiger Component Design
[] +2 to One Weisoft Action
[] Unlock: Early Robotic Automatization
-Operation: CAT FISH-
[] +4 to Tigerstripe Design
[] +2 to Naval Shipyards
Could we trade Iron Tiger to the PRC for nuclear reactors or rocket engines?
Only the rocket engines (until the Iron Tigers are released/proven) in exchange for all design documents and several prototypes. This would also throw out your advantage as being the first producers/designers of the Iron Tigers.

It'd be easier to dump 5 CO to gain the rockets imo.
 
[X] Unlock: Early Robotic Automatization

Hang on, kids. We're heading straight to the future!

Only the rocket engines (until the Iron Tigers are released/proven) in exchange for all design documents and several prototypes. This would also throw out your advantage as being the first producers/designers of the Iron Tigers.

It'd be easier to dump 5 CO to gain the rockets imo.

Definitely not worth it. Iron Tiger is a big advantage to have. Not just the concept itself but the sheer amount of innovations we get from simply having it. Engines, alloys, fuel, robotics, etc. It also gives another nation key insights to the weakness of our most potent weapon and asset.
 
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The other issue is torps. So the motherwhip would need to have either a big stock of them, or get resupplied fairly often.

Air drop them from a cargo plane and give the mothership manipulator arms to wrangle them aboard.

Dear ancestors, we really are Belka.

I was thinking like a fully weaponized diving suit. Way more agile than a submarine. Also, a deep sea walker if we ever wanna do some deep sea exploration and diving. Think Subnautica Prawn Suit! :V

For canon, you should also consider less specific general tech. Something we can use for various industries/vehicles/projects/etc.

Maybe tech to serve as a precursor for better near-infinite non-nuclear power sources?

I might be misunderstanding what you mean? A humanoid body plan won't be more agile in the water? Fish look like fish and not like monkeys for a reason.
If you want underwater agility you stick some a i.od thrusters on the submarine and maybe give it's control planes more degrees of freedom.

@HeroCooky, what counts as a minor thing? Like, I'd love to get Lithium-Ion batteries 15 years early, but that seem a bit much - and on the other hand we have the Iron Tiger, which is a thing, so I'm not sure how to calibrate my expectations. :p

(Omake writers, if you want to write something so we got LiPo batteries early, be my guest - it would even make sense in the context of working on now subs.)

I mean, there's no non-nuclear power system after nuclear - fusion is still nuclear energy. :V

[] +4 to Tigerstripe Design
[] +2 to Naval Shipyards

@7th Hex How would you feel about hybridizing our designs to pool the boni?

It'd be easier to dump 5 CO to gain the rockets imo.

What's CO?
 
Does anyone have any suggestions?
Honestly depends on how impactful that small cannon can be, If we could make it so we've had some of our people go abroad for education coming back soon, as cannon then we could get some educators which would be more valuable then the +2, Granted the +2 on smallest also could cancel out a nat1.
so the cannon option would open more opportunities while the bonus grants stability.
 
I might be misunderstanding what you mean? A humanoid body plan won't be more agile in the water? Fish look like fish and not like monkeys for a reason.
If you want underwater agility you stick some a i.od thrusters on the submarine and maybe give it's control planes more degrees of freedom.

Oh I know, but I'm talking bout rule of cool. 😛 Besides, don't see much point for aerodynamics (except traveling speed) in underwater combat if you give your mecha the ability to shoot torpedoes.




Seriously though, subs are slow. We need a faster breed of submersible, one that's shorter range and can potentially sacrifice stealth for sheer speed and maneuverability. Also you can put as many thrusters on a sub, it's not gonna make it more maneuverable than a torp. We need active defenses of some sort. A craft that can shoot down or at least disable or evade torps reliably is preferable. And I think laufpanzer can help us find that niche.

Don't misunderstand though, I'm not saying no to the sub. You've convinced me. It's just something to think about in the future, as our tech gets more and more advanced and our theoretical knowledge turns into practical experience in manufacturing, design, operations, etc.

On a separate note, how bout using the 'canon' option you have to bring a notable person to Guangchou? Could be a known expert of the time, a scientist, a celebrity, a popular communist, etc. Maybe even get Stafford Beer for Cybersyn.
 
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