At keast Alchemist gave the kids a fighting chance, a brief moment of luck and taste of accomplishment, might give them the drive to go on.

Yes,some kids might not have the will to go on, when they suddenly outgrow those clothes. But there will be those who manages to push on. We dont know how distribution of cons and advantages will be in this case, but i would lean towards good
 
The kids won't outgrow the clothes. Magic items (in both D&D/PF, where Alchemist gets most of his magic, and Elder Scrolls, where he gets most of his crafting) resize to fit the wearer, and they never wear out.

Also, looks like it's time for Alchemist to kill Hojo, imprison Jenova, and take down Shinra. Again.
 
Now, I know that I'm using an Ad Absurdum logic... But it's still internally consistent.
It's not Ad Absudum. It's Lutherian.
His point is that humanity needs to learn how to take care of itself, instead of being a pet dependent on superheroes. It's a point that Superman himself agrees with in principle, just not by the means Luthor uses. Superman's approach here is to set a moral example for humanity to follow. Lex's is to acquire power and technology to rival the gods. Both are making the same point, but from right brings might or might makes right.
 
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As well as the same line of thinking that Lex Luthor used to determine that he should kill Superman.

Isn't really that wise, when you think about it.
Not really though? He didn't say there WOULD be negative consequences. Not always or in every case. Just that the possibility existed, and likely wasn't considered (and it definitely wasn't). A Lutherism would be that clothes that make people smarter are an terrible alien influence either corrupting moral values or just making life too easy and really because you own a tutoring company that charges high prices and don't want the competition. Then going ahead and trying to murder the shirt donor while lobbying to make education even more difficult and your tutoring business more necessary and valuable.

It was still perfectly wise.
 
At keast Alchemist gave the kids a fighting chance, a brief moment of luck and taste of accomplishment, might give them the drive to go on.

Yes,some kids might not have the will to go on, when they suddenly outgrow those clothes. But there will be those who manages to push on. We dont know how distribution of cons and advantages will be in this case, but i would lean towards good

Likely so. It should be a largely good action but it's hardly unfair to ask 'Is this right?' and 'How can this go wrong?'

Captain Marvel, I felt, was a good option for looking at how things can go wrong because I would honestly expect that he might have had assignments for school that he completed as Captain Marvel rather than Billy Batson and they would have come out very differently than they would have if he'd done them in his 'normal' form. Which could have seen him suffering accusations of cheating, of having someone else do his homework for him. Or possibly being praised by the teacher and asked to come up and explain how he got an answer, which he could no longer describe because he wasn't Captain Marvel at that moment, blessed by the Wisdom of Solomon. Billy might remember the process but he might also not comprehend why each step was performed.

It's not equivalent, really, because once those other kids learn something they'll keep it. And learning is, itself, a skill that can be learned and refined which is what schools are supposed to do... but that's an entirely different issue entirely. Regardless of that- With the discipline bonus, a lot of kids will be able to get more out of school provided they were getting something to begin with. Or maybe they'll wear some rock-band tee-shirt from the future while they're in chemistry class and suddenly connect the dots for crystal meth.

It's a tool, one that is, as is the nature of tools, without direction. Some might use it for good. Some might not. Alchemist would certainly hope that the good outweighs the bad but the problem with investing in the future is that you have no idea how that will go. But it's better to take that shot in the dark than it is to do nothing.
 
Uh I mean earth isn't in an age of magic but it's host to a dozen some pantheons of varying degrees, is a primordial, hosts the life entity, is home of the parliaments to some degree, has many angelic presences to some degree or another many of which in power are bigger than universes, is connected to the dreaming a possible source of magic and multiversal in nature, has the star heart a galaxies worth of magic on it, and probably a whole bunch of other stuff on it that radiate magic or are magic in one level or another, I mean Lucifer lives there and their bigger than a multiverse technically in some ways. Hosts to magic metals and possibly the god wave on some level. So I'd say while eorzea is clearly higher magic visually earth has more magic than many universes just there if not easily accessible. Than some multiverses even. Possibly infinite in scope if not in access. Oh and all the corpses of magical beings and gods in it. The stuff on earth could probably power a billion of the dudes.

There's enough stuff on a dc earth multiversal in nature that if you can harness it you could make a multiverse much less power a world.
offhand fiscer do you have no opinion on this comment I made?
 
Who wants to bet the paper boy is Alchemist?
I'm fairly sure the paperboy was Superman getting a 2nd opinion. In the snippet when Alchemist's actions where being discussed by the heroes, Superman didn't participate in asking Dr Fate any questions. And since he is also an investigative journalist, that screams Superman didn't think asking questions was worth it.
 
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offhand fiscer do you have no opinion on this comment I made?

The majority of the magic within the current age of most Earths is locked up, sealed away, kept as a secret or otherwise unavailable.

It's not literally crystallizing in various locations, as is the case of Eorzea, nor is it being practiced enough to noticeably expand the 'free' magic available within the Earth's biosphere.

If it were unstoppered, unplugged and actually used? Then, yes, the magic of the Earth could grow to potentially match that of Eorzea or possibly even surpass it. Which has been explored in a number of different timelines and comics, actually. Some of which even have Klarion the Witch Man as a hero in them.
 
I think one of the things causing the most chaos is that alchemist unintentionally fell into the criminal mastermind trope when dealing with the heroes of this dimension. He's been going around confronting heroes with information and abilities that are out of context, and then leaving/escaping without a fight with the heroes. The heroes pattern recognition has been thrown of because they didn't get their traditional fight with a future ally followed by team up to take down a common foe. While alchemist and family have become a sort of hidden society/illuminati that have their own goals and motivations, even if those goals are benevolent like taking a vacation or subtly enhancing a population to better withstand a crisis. It makes me think the universe itself might be enforcing the trope without any party realizing it
 
I for one applaud Constantine for once, because he kept enough socks(thats what everyone should be doing really, socks are probably one of the most likely piece of clothing you won't outgrow that much in your life barring extreme growth spurts and medical conditions, so lifetime supply of study buddies). With this he might not screw up everyone that partners with him all the time.
 
Yanno, Marvel's argument could be seen as quite harsh.

Following his logic, Heroes shouldn't help people. After all, helping people creates a safety net that made regular people feels safer than they actually is.

That right there is Lex Luthors biggest excuse to kill superman, he thinks Clark makes humanity weak just by helping l.
 
Likely so. It should be a largely good action but it's hardly unfair to ask 'Is this right?' and 'How can this go wrong?'

Captain Marvel, I felt, was a good option for looking at how things can go wrong because I would honestly expect that he might have had assignments for school that he completed as Captain Marvel rather than Billy Batson and they would have come out very differently than they would have if he'd done them in his 'normal' form. Which could have seen him suffering accusations of cheating, of having someone else do his homework for him. Or possibly being praised by the teacher and asked to come up and explain how he got an answer, which he could no longer describe because he wasn't Captain Marvel at that moment, blessed by the Wisdom of Solomon. Billy might remember the process but he might also not comprehend why each step was performed.

It's not equivalent, really, because once those other kids learn something they'll keep it. And learning is, itself, a skill that can be learned and refined which is what schools are supposed to do... but that's an entirely different issue entirely. Regardless of that- With the discipline bonus, a lot of kids will be able to get more out of school provided they were getting something to begin with. Or maybe they'll wear some rock-band tee-shirt from the future while they're in chemistry class and suddenly connect the dots for crystal meth.

It's a tool, one that is, as is the nature of tools, without direction. Some might use it for good. Some might not. Alchemist would certainly hope that the good outweighs the bad but the problem with investing in the future is that you have no idea how that will go. But it's better to take that shot in the dark than it is to do nothing.

In JSA Billy told Star Girl that once he tried to do his homework as Captain Marvel, and the Wisdom of Solomon convinced/prevented him from doing it.

He also told her they had to break up because people were talking, and he couldn't reveal his real age because the WISDOM told him something was coming and he needed to retain the Respect of Captain Marvel.

Really Billy seems to be a slave to what Solomon decides, only not listening so hard when he becomes evil.

Really it seems more like it acts as an auditor for his actions...
 
John would find new and more complicated ways to screw over people. Not necessarily out of malice, but because he's likely to overestimate his capabilities once smaller issues become easier to deal with.

Captain Marvel, I felt, was a good option for looking at how things can go wrong because I would honestly expect that he might have had assignments for school that he completed as Captain Marvel rather than Billy Batson and they would have come out very differently than they would have if he'd done them in his 'normal' form. Which could have seen him suffering accusations of cheating, of having someone else do his homework for him. Or possibly being praised by the teacher and asked to come up and explain how he got an answer, which he could no longer describe because he wasn't Captain Marvel at that moment, blessed by the Wisdom of Solomon. Billy might remember the process but he might also not comprehend why each step was performed.

As someone pointed out, it's likely that if he applied the Wisdom of Solomon to "doing my homework" it would likely tell him 'if you do this you're going to regret it' because the logical inference would be that 'this is easy to solve as Captain Marvel but the material is for the betterment of Billy Batson, and you won't get better unless you solve it as Billy'.

But if you struggle in school, logically, you can also absolutely use Solomon's Wisdom to do better. Transform, create a study plan, figure out a dozen ways to explain complicated concepts in a way a child will be able to understand, write out the problem and then a step-by-step breakdown, and so on.

That's not me saying "LOL comic book characters aren't intelligent enough to use their powers correctly", the logical explanation for why they choose not to do so is that these powers go to people who have a strong enough moral foundation to believe this is "cheating", that using superpowers to get ahead of normal people is 'bad', which isn't entirely to their detriment since many alternate universe scenarios conclude 'if the right sequence of events takes place, anyone good can turn very bad, and the consequences for that happening when the good person has superpowers is also magnified'.

But Batman isn't even worse for the external advantages he possesses, which undermines this narrative. It's not annoying that Billy won't try to help himself out with his abilities, it's annoying that the same setting is narratively inconsistent about it.
 
The majority of the magic within the current age of most Earths is locked up, sealed away, kept as a secret or otherwise unavailable.

It's not literally crystallizing in various locations, as is the case of Eorzea, nor is it being practiced enough to noticeably expand the 'free' magic available within the Earth's biosphere.

If it were unstoppered, unplugged and actually used? Then, yes, the magic of the Earth could grow to potentially match that of Eorzea or possibly even surpass it. Which has been explored in a number of different timelines and comics, actually. Some of which even have Klarion the Witch Man as a hero in them.
honestly if it was unlocked or you just took the locked parts. I'm fairly sure it'd surpass a billion eorzeas. Like there are literal infinite sized things of magic connected to earth.
 
Likely so. It should be a largely good action but it's hardly unfair to ask 'Is this right?' and 'How can this go wrong?'
In fact, it's vitally important. Lots of actions and policies undertaken by people in power to solve issues have ended up making issues worse.

One example of this is when the British empire attempted to eradicate poisonous snakes in India by paying Indians for every snake they killed. This resulted in Indians breeding the snakes in order to kill them, and when the British found out and stopped paying, the Indians released the snakes they'd bred creating a net increase in snakes.

A more recent example is that studies have shown that hard-hitting anti-tobacco commercials have stigmatized people who suffer from lung disease, even if they'd never smoked. This then increases the mortality rates of lung cancer and other such diseases because people will put off going to the doctor for fear of said stigma, leaving time for the disease to fester without treatment and decreasing the chances of survival.
 
I am surprised HIVE Academy is not looking into this Educational Opportunity to Expand the Knowledge Base.

They have many that NEEDED TO LEARN! ( All the wrong things.. but still...? )

Does Selina get a tight T-shirt she wears as a cape or spare Socks?

... John will get plagued by Moths, right? Does his socks work if they become Holey?
 
I am surprised HIVE Academy is not looking into this Educational Opportunity to Expand the Knowledge Base.
Do they know the clothing even exists? We don't know what the public actually knows, just what the newsboy appeared to know, and I think we all agree that the newsboy wasn't who he said he was.

That being said, that would fit Drama Centrals midis operadi

Edit: modus operandi
 
honestly if it was unlocked or you just took the locked parts. I'm fairly sure it'd surpass a billion eorzeas. Like there are literal infinite sized things of magic connected to earth.

Which is great and all but it's not free-floating magic that's literally turning solid due to heavy concentration just out in the wild.

It does not matter how many zero-point generators or infinite batteries you've got sitting around if their contents cannot be accessed.
 
So speaking from experience, every person will eventually reach this point. No matter how big of a genius you are, there will be a moment when it fails you... And if you were an asshole back when you were on top? It hits hard.
History's strongest disciple Keinchi had good quote it went something like this > as a child, genius as a teenager, prodigy as a grown up, average.
 
Which is great and all but it's not free-floating magic that's literally turning solid due to heavy concentration just out in the wild.

It does not matter how many zero-point generators or infinite batteries you've got sitting around if their contents cannot be accessed.
some of them are still relatively up for grabs for anyone smart enough but sure yeah.
 
John would find new and more complicated ways to screw over people. Not necessarily out of malice, but because he's likely to overestimate his capabilities once smaller issues become easier to deal with.



As someone pointed out, it's likely that if he applied the Wisdom of Solomon to "doing my homework" it would likely tell him 'if you do this you're going to regret it' because the logical inference would be that 'this is easy to solve as Captain Marvel but the material is for the betterment of Billy Batson, and you won't get better unless you solve it as Billy'.

But if you struggle in school, logically, you can also absolutely use Solomon's Wisdom to do better. Transform, create a study plan, figure out a dozen ways to explain complicated concepts in a way a child will be able to understand, write out the problem and then a step-by-step breakdown, and so on.

That's not me saying "LOL comic book characters aren't intelligent enough to use their powers correctly", the logical explanation for why they choose not to do so is that these powers go to people who have a strong enough moral foundation to believe this is "cheating", that using superpowers to get ahead of normal people is 'bad', which isn't entirely to their detriment since many alternate universe scenarios conclude 'if the right sequence of events takes place, anyone good can turn very bad, and the consequences for that happening when the good person has superpowers is also magnified'.

But Batman isn't even worse for the external advantages he possesses, which undermines this narrative. It's not annoying that Billy won't try to help himself out with his abilities, it's annoying that the same setting is narratively inconsistent about it.
For Billy, it's simple. The Wisdom of Solomon builds upon the person who has it. Doing homework is there to improve Billy, and therefore the Wisdom. If the Wisdom solves his homework, he gains nothing and is just wasting time and worse off. Therefore, the wise thing to do is have his normal self do the homework, put the time to good use, and improve himself. Anything less is just short-sighted, which is the opposite of Wisdom.
 
For Billy, it's simple. The Wisdom of Solomon builds upon the person who has it. Doing homework is there to improve Billy, and therefore the Wisdom. If the Wisdom solves his homework, he gains nothing and is just wasting time and worse off. Therefore, the wise thing to do is have his normal self do the homework, put the time to good use, and improve himself. Anything less is just short-sighted, which is the opposite of Wisdom.
Using the Wisdom of his super powers to improve his unpowered form's ability to study (by writing up study notes that unpowered Billy can use to improve his study habits) is absolutely the opposite of short-sighted. It's smart, which is why the writers won't let him do it. Can't use your powers intelligently unless it involves hurting someone.
 
I fun it funny that there is this talk about hero's not minmaxing and such. Some are young and might not think of it, but also, unlike comics we are lucky our writer here goes into this side of things and makes the hero's have more depth and character to them then the somewhat stagnant ideals that they are forced to be in comics.

Honestly, it's an interesting problem from the Hero perspective- and their real worry isn't about the learning enchantment of what Alchemist did. He's a bit of a mystery, yeah, but he seems fairly begin if very powerful for someone never spotted before. The issue becomes something like "Okay, this is pretty nice to the kids.... but what if one of <VILLAIN NAME HERE> plots something similar. How do we save them at that scale?" which they never considered before. It's already discussed in the chapter anyhow, but I thought that was the real concern that everyone was dealing with.
 
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