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Paths of Civilization II: Paths of Industrialization

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Citino said:
Nohon hold all the ports. Hung opinion on this doesn't matter.
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Except Hung ports don't control the internal economy?

Like, if there's civil chaos and a port where not dicks are set up, why would there be substantial trade out of Hung through other ports? If it's just a matter of ports why aren't we getting paid? Why the fuck do Sketch expect Tea from an Empire tearing itself apart? There's a civil war on and they can hardly afford to stay afloat, with what money, time and resources do they use to rebuild their Tea industry?
 
McLuvin said:
Except Hung ports don't control the internal economy?

Like, if there's civil chaos and a port where not dicks are set up, why would there be substantial trade out of Hung through other ports? If it's just a matter of ports why aren't we getting paid? Why the fuck do Sketch expect Tea from an Empire tearing itself apart? There's a civil war on and they can hardly afford to stay afloat, with what money, time and resources do they use to rebuild their Tea industry?
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I already explained how, by propping up the warlords who'll sell to them. Makes the job of stabilizing the country harder, but the Sketch have historically not given a shit about what they do in the pursuit of profit, and they're too perfectly positioned geographically for anyone to punish them for what they do.
 
Alectai said:
Prop up one or two of the successor states that rejected central authority. Tell them the lies they want to hear. They hate Nohon after all, but Sketch was convienently absent during that period.

We wouldn't tell Hung the lies they wanted to hear, so they collapsed as a state--but they didn't collapse completely, there's still a core that survived and is now going to rapidly start developing. Sketch needs to stop us from making this happen because the last thing they want us another Great Power being aligned with us that counterbalances their ally in the Nohon, so they're going to invest in the successor warlords and try to turn the Hung into this timeline's Middle East.

But yeah, if we wanted to stop the Sketch from making out like bandits here? We needed to suck it up and buy the port that Nohon was willing to sell us. Since we wouldn't do that, they went to someone who did.
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That's going to fail. Simply because the Sketch will not pony up for the advisors the successors need and can't afford. Specially not the technical advisors. We did, and that's why the guy we back will win the civil war.
 
Fouredged Sword said:
Do we have rough casualty figgures for the war so far? We lost 3 temp armies. How much, roughly, have other factions lost.

Are we killing 2-1 or throwing our men into 1-2 meatgrinders?
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Against the SKF you are about 1:1, against the Ochruhr you are losing about 1.5 for each of theirs because you are having to assault mountain fortresses. So you are actually doing very well against the Ochruhr, it's just that you can only move so fast against them.
 
065tdsa said:
That's going to fail. Simply because the Sketch will not pony up for the advisors the successors need and can't afford. Specially not the technical advisors.
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They don't need to actually help them, just sell them guns and mercenaries and tools.

You're not thinking enough in terms of plunder economy! Them sending advisors would be a terrible idea, because then it means they wouldn't be dependent on the Sketch's goodwill! Better to sell them guns and powder, and maybe the odd mercenary here and there. Advisors? Who would ever do that? It costs money and time and just makes someone capable of thriving without you!
 
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McLuvin said:
...It seems like you didn't even read the comment. No offence but in the section you quoted I explicitly say 'they want more representation of the lower class'. It's actually a little insulting you completely and utterly ignored that part to tell me I'm wrong for two paragraphs.
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My apolgies, I somehow missed that. Still leaves my other points, giving the upper houses power is not a bad thing. The upper house includes landowners, officers, administrators and other incredibly vital people to our society.

Their opinion is very important, and they can even generally be trusted not to do stupid shit all the time, because they suffer if the country goes to shit. And the factions balance each other and can be very easily used to keep them from doing stupid shit.
 
noliar said:
Selling technology to the Nohon that could be used for navies is a CB because they are not fit and proper people to have a navy. The Ochruhr have stopped expanding. Peace out with them, drive straight through the Federation and when we hit the Halvyni coast, keep going. Or peace out with both. The only benefit of going to war with either was diplomatic options we've been beaten to the punch on. Let the Syffryn sort out their own squalid messes for once.

They're starving the Kus, that's another CB.
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*sigh*
Academia Nut said:
I guess if you want to lose the current wars to the SKF and Ochruhr you could pick an unpopular war with a global superpower without a CB.
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Nobody cares about starving Kus peasants. Sad, but that's the 19th century for you.
 
McLuvin said:
Except Hung ports don't control the internal economy?

Like, if there's civil chaos and a port where not dicks are set up, why would there be substantial trade out of Hung through other ports? If it's just a matter of ports why aren't we getting paid? Why the fuck do Sketch expect Tea from an Empire tearing itself apart? There's a civil war on and they can hardly afford to stay afloat, with what money, time and resources do they use to rebuild their Tea industry?
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Because the not dicks explicitly got an undeveloped port far away from all the money and wealth. Because the Hung aren't so secure that they can go out of their way to only trade with us. Because the Sketch intend to break the country into fragments that they can control? Because the Hung need money and guns to fund the civil war so they can't afford to stop growing it? Because the Sketch will pay a lot for tea?
 
I fully advocate setting up espionage networks in Nohon and then sabotaging their efforts at industrialisation.

A few steam explosions here and there couldn't hurt.
 
Alectai said:
They don't need to actually help them, just sell them guns and mercenaries and tools.

You're not thinking enough in terms of plunder economy! Them sending advisors would be a terrible idea, because then it means they wouldn't be dependent on the Sketch's goodwill! Better to sell them guns and powder, and maybe the odd mercenary here and there. Advisors? Who would ever do that?
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Exactly. Which is why in the long run, the dude we back will conquer all of Hung. The Sketch will make out like bandits in the short term, but they won't stop the reunification under a leadership friendly to us, getting us yet another GP tier ally.
 
Citino said:
My apolgies, I somehow missed that. Still leaves my other points, giving the upper houses power is not a bad thing. The upper house includes landowners, officers, administrators and other incredibly vital people to our society.

Their opinion is very important, and they can even generally be trusted not to do stupid shit all the time, because they suffer if the country goes to shit. And the factions balance each other and can be very easily used to keep them from doing stupid shit.
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...That doesn't seem to fit with the fact that, as per WoAN, they want to push mass pollution legislation.

Considering that it could cause mass collapse that doesn't seem to be avoiding stupid shit. More like driving straight into stupid shit with the windows open.
 
Dutch said:
Today I learned that no other nation is allowed to do anything that can influence our global position without our explicit permission.

Because that's a reasonable position to hold. :rolleyes:

Edit: autocorrupt.
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Of course not, any competent moves from opponents immediately rile up people.
McLuvin said:
Oh yes, the exploitation, pretending there's more money then there is and actively leaving every other economy to collapse as they pull away all their investment most certainly wasn't their fault and they couldn't have known it might hurt others.
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Yes, it wasn't. Pulling out money certainly hurt others, but what they were supposed to do, lose it there?
McLuvin said:
A. They could've got the money from multiple other sources that needed it, as I've explained before, none of which piss on us whilst we fight their abominable creation.
B. Hung can't even pay us for our services and is actively falling apart, they can't get shit out of them and a port literally lined them up to fight us at some point without a doubt and they should know this by now.
C. They had few interests in Asia and we've never been aggressive to them at all, in fact we've been friendly as fuck in comparison to what we should've been. It's like modern America supplying terrorists in Europe. It's an active fuck you to someone who isn't an enemy whatsoever.
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A: Yeah, but not only the combination of "has good money to pay for it" and "needs outdated equipment" can be hard to find elsewhere - Nohon did just loot Hung - it wouldn't empower our rival a bit and create counterweight in Asia.
B: AN already mentioned tea - they can support some governor there so he would get it, or just be in a good position to buy it from central government for stuff, and they don't really have any other choice.
C: It's the British Empire - they have interests across the entire world. We never sought conflict, but that's literally doesn't matter a bit - of course we didn't, we were in no position to win in. We were never friendly. However, if DC snowballs in Asia, the balance of power rapidly shifts.
 
Alectai said:
Prop up one or two of the successor states that rejected central authority. Tell them the lies they want to hear. They hate Nohon after all, but Sketch was convienently absent during that period.

We wouldn't tell Hung the lies they wanted to hear, so they collapsed as a state--but they didn't collapse completely, there's still a core that survived and is now going to rapidly start developing. Sketch needs to stop us from making this happen because the last thing they want us another Great Power being aligned with us that counterbalances their ally in the Nohon, so they're going to invest in the successor warlords and try to turn the Hung into this timeline's Middle East, where nobody can get anything of value out of it because it's so divided up by sectarian and tribal lines to the point where even every individual nation has to play the game of thrones internally or get dunked on by those who did.

But yeah, if we wanted to stop the Sketch from making out like bandits here? We needed to suck it up and buy the port that Nohon was willing to sell us. Since we wouldn't do that, they went to someone who did.
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If we bought the port they'd have had even more to spend on Sketch tech.
 
065tdsa said:
Exactly. Which is why in the long run, the dude we back will conquer all of Hung. The Sketch will make out like bandits, but they won't stop the reunification under a leadership friendly to us.
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Assuredly. What the Sketch want to do is make that as much of a pain in the ass as possible, and hopefully set things up that the subsequent successor state is shaky and has to spend generations stabilizing their position instead of reaching out.

Sure, this'll make things a pain in the ass for them down the line.... But that's Future Sketch's problem! And besides, I'm sure they think they can make the problems go away with money if they have to, and they'll have a lot more money to make problems go away by then!

They're probably even right, because their core territories are a bitch to assault. Not super hard to raze in a post-aviation environment, but a nightmare to assault.
 
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agumentic said:
Of course not, any competent moves from opponents immediately rile up people.

Yes, it wasn't. Pulling out money certainly hurt others, but what they were supposed to do, lose it there?

A: Yeah, but not only the combination of "has good money to pay for it" and "needs outdated equipment" can be hard to find elsewhere - Nohon did just loot Hung - it wouldn't empower our rival a bit and create counterweight in Asia.
B: AN already mentioned tea - they can support some governor there so he would get it, or just be in a good position to buy it from central government for stuff, and they don't really have any other choice.
C: It's the British Empire - they have interests across the entire world. We never sought conflict, but that's literally doesn't matter a bit - of course we didn't, we were in no position to win in. We were never friendly. However, if DC snowballs in Asia, the balance of power rapidly shifts.
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I honestly don't see anything wrong with people getting frustrated at others competently acting against our interests.

Sketch propping up the Nohon and helping them industrialize is very much so against our interests, as it will make them a much more difficult opponent to defeat in another confrontation, as well as giving them another leg up over the Hung.

So yes @Dutch , other nations enabling our rivals and maneuvering things to our detriment is a perfectly reasonable thing to be frustrated by.
 
McLuvin said:
...That doesn't seem to fit with the fact that, as per WoAN, they want to push mass pollution legislation.

Considering that it could cause mass collapse that doesn't seem to be avoiding stupid shit. More like driving straight into stupid shit with the windows open.
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That's not them being evil, that's them actually being able to see the big picture. Rapid development is the name of the game for the next century, and we're already way behind everyone except the Nohon in that game-- and the Nohon are closing in fast. We develop fast, or we die.

Lower classes don't like it not because they are some sort of bastion of purity, but because they actually have to deal with that shit in their day to day lives, so it's a major issues to them. The upper classes see the politics and rapidly advancing industry around them, and realize they have to move fast or die as they get left behind.
 
McLuvin said:
B. Hung can't even pay us for our services and is actively falling apart, they can't get shit out of them and a port literally lined them up to fight us at some point without a doubt and they should know this by now.
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Oh also I'm a little late, but any conflict over that port is in the very distant future. Right now they're happy to potentially have a way to trade thats not overland or through the Nohon and for us to be able to develop the territory.
Academia Nut said:
As it was, the news that these foreigners would be taking the Tragon port had come as a relief.
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