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Paths of Civilization II: Paths of Industrialization

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What is our ultimate goal in the distribution of power between the upper houses and lower houses? Do we want both houses to be equal? Or do we want the upper house to be weaker (once the option is unlocked) than the lower house?
 
Fouredged Sword said:
Should there be a Lower House and what should it do? Current Status Quo: Advisory (Cannot be stronger than the Upper House this Constitution)
[] [LH] 3 PW - Advisory
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Do you want to kill us? Cause this is how we explode, since the lower classes have made it very clear that this won't be acceptable.
bluefur87 said:
Actually, the whole point was that the press was not fairly representing them and their needs, so freedom of the press is likely what is needed.

I find it more hilarious, personally, that someone who said they wanted to limit power is bumping up the power of the upper nobility. Like, I keep on saying 'I want to not give the power of the king away so freely,' and I have some people agree with me and some not. Now, don't get me wrong, I could totally understand if those talking were merely not being represented properly, but I then see people who agree with the general idea of 'I don't want to give the power of the king away,' turn around and do as much of that as they possibly can.

I think that the thread just sees the way the list is ordered and thinks 'oh, going further down this list is surely nothing but an upgrade,' sometimes.
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No, they outright felt that the LH was utterly useless. Keeping it advisory will make huge problems.
 
from discord:

Article:
LH requires veto at absolute minimum to not cause issues with the lower classes feeling ignored
Source: Academia Nut
 
agumentic said:
I mean, what's so wrong about what they did? They are playing for success too, you know.
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Except they could've sold to virtually anyone else except Nohon, who they know we hate and they do it whilst we are cleaning up their mess and problems they caused.

It's like someone setting a hotel on fire then going out and letting a rabid dog into the Fireman's house with his family whilst he's out.


Anyway:
Plan: Let's not Give a Mile

[] [UH] 2 PW - Veto
[] [LH] 2 PW - Veto (+1 Temp Happiness)
[] [Assembly] 2 PW - Broad (+1 Happiness, Min. Consciousness from Education Increased by 1)
[] [Press] 2 PW - Free press (-1 Temp Happiness, Min. Consciousness from Education Increased by 1, Academic Freedom Provides Half Consciousness to Innovation)

Here's my plan. Firstly, Absolutism still works and until we can increase the franchise we should keep it, minor lawmaking and all that shit isn't good, it's not what's needed. The concon was called because people didn't like the academic restrictions and rioted over it. So, we lift the restrictions, and give the Lower house teeth, which is all the people want. Why give a mile when you can give a metre? Or an inch? And get the same result?
 
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[] [UH] +1 PW - Minor lawmaking
[] [LH] 4 PW - Minor lawmaking (+1 Temp Happiness)
[] [Assembly] 2 PW - Broad (+1 Happiness, Min. Consciousness from Education Increased by 1)
[] [Press] 2 PW - Free press (-1 Temp Happiness, Min. Consciousness from Education Increased by 1, Academic Freedom Provides Half Consciousness to Innovation)

yeah, seems reasonably balanced.
 
Eh. Give both houses minor lawmaking. It seems to be the way to go. I am not behind giving the nobility more power until they can show us that they can play nice.

Steady incremental change.

Free press and assembly though. We can sort problems out as we go, but we NEED these.
 
I thinl that I will support

[] [UH] +1 PW - Minor lawmaking
[] [LH] 2 PW - Veto (+1 Temp Happiness)
[] [Assembly] 2 PW - Broad (+1 Happiness, Min. Consciousness from Education Increased by 1)
[] [Press] 2 PW - Free press (-1 Temp Happiness, Min. Consciousness from Education Increased by 1, Academic Freedom Provides Half Consciousness to Innovation)

Our monarch and his family are pretty good, there is no need to give away too much power for now.

We also should save some PW for the war; that is harder than some people thought.
 
Fouredged Sword said:
Eh. Give both houses minor lawmaking. It seems to be the way to go. I am not behind giving the nobility more power until they can show us that they can play nice.

Steady incremental change.

Free press and assembly though. We can sort problems out as we go, but we NEED these.
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Yeah, the nobility will get more power out of this. I don't trust them not to push more, remember, the parties bills will include more pollution creation, Nokly can't stop that if we give them all Lawmaking. Plus it's absolutely not necessary. Like, it's giving someone a four course meal when they only asked for lunch.
 
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What powers shall be invested in the Upper House? Current De Jure Status Quo: Advisory, De Facto Status Quo: Minor Lawmaking
[] [UH] 5 PW - Advisory
[] [UH] 2 PW - Veto
[] [UH] +1 PW - Minor lawmaking
[] [UH] 2 PW - Power of the purse
[] [UH] 4 PW - Total lawmaking

Rolling back powers rolls back our capacity for free stuff based on factions, expanding powers forces us to capitulate with more regularity. Minor Lawmaking, which they already de facto do, is fine. Giving them control of the purse means we will no longer be able to personally take actions revolving around SoL, which is abstractly 'the purse' of the nation.

Should there be a Lower House and what should it do? Current Status Quo: Advisory (Cannot be stronger than the Upper House this Constitution)
[] [LH] 5 PW - None
[] [LH] 3 PW - Advisory
[] [LH] 2 PW - Veto (+1 Temp Happiness)
[] [LH] 4 PW - Minor lawmaking (+1 Temp Happiness)
[] [LH] 6 PW - Power of the purse
[] [LH] 10 PW - Total lawmaking

Veto is okay. They want power, give them enough to say 'what the hell nobility, we think this is crap'. That by itself will be massive for the lower house. Any more is just granting way too much power too fast to people who've never had or used it before, which generally goes poorly.

Freedom of assembly? Status Quo: Limited
[] [Assembly] 2 PW - Restricted
[] [Assembly] +1 PW - Limited Citizen, Restricted Minority
[] [Assembly] 0 PW - Limited
[] [Assembly] 2 PW - Broad (+1 Happiness, Min. Consciousness from Education Increased by 1)

Broad smells nice. Free happiness insta-counters consciousness increases.

Freedom of the press? Status Quo: Crown Censorship
[] [Press] 4 PW - Crown Only (Academy Slot from Academic Freedom not automatically filled)
[] [Press] 0 PW - Free ownership with Crown Censorship
[] [Press] 2 PW - Free press (-1 Temp Happiness, Min. Consciousness from Education Increased by 1, Academic Freedom Provides Half Consciousness to Innovation)

Free press is... big. Though it is also a massive inno buff.
 
liberty90 said:
Our monarch and his family are pretty good, there is no need to give away too much power for now.
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It also means that if shit hits the fan, the King is held responsible.

And notice how many royal families have been dying of late when things go wrong...

Better to give more power (and responsibility) to the Parliment, so that the people blame them, not the royal family.

After all, Nokly is well loved for his quick actions in vetoing a bad bill. People will be quite happy to have the King/Queen still hold that power, while letting all the blame fall on the Parliment.
 
Yeah, but we get PW discounts for plans by other groups. If we give minor lawmaking to both we will get lots of options to choose from every midturn and can veto if we don't like any.

We run out of PW ALL THE TIME. We can't omake everything.

The king maintains supreme power.
 
Citino said:
It also means that if shit hits the fan, the King is held responsible.

And notice how many royal families have been dying of late when things go wrong...

Better to give more power (and responsibility) to the Parliment, so that the people blame them, not the royal family.

After all, Nokly is well loved for his quick actions in vetoing a bad bill. People will be quite happy to have the King/Queen still hold that power, while letting all the blame fall on the Parliment.
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Yeah, if you want to throw the blame at someone else in case of emergency you need to give them major lawmaking and then wait a few decades, as people will still look at the king for a generation or two even after he loses a lot of power over legislation.

That's not a good strategy overall
 
[] Scratch plan
-[] [UH] +1 PW - Minor lawmaking
-[] [LH] 4 PW - Minor lawmaking (+1 Temp Happiness)
-[] [Assembly] 2 PW - Broad (+1 Happiness, Min. Consciousness from Education Increased by 1)
-[] [Press] 2 PW - Free press (-1 Temp Happiness, Min. Consciousness from Education Increased by 1, Academic Freedom

PW remaining is 4.

What does veto do?

This plan sticks to changing our restrictions, reafirming the UH position to bring in LH onto the ML table.
 
McLuvin said:
Except they could've sold to virtually anyone else except Nohon, who they know we hate and they do it whilst we are cleaning up their mess and problems they caused.
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Virtually everyone else don't have money - except us, I guess, but we're in a good old love/rival relationship, they sure wouldn't sell to us. That way they can get money, create another kinda obstacle for DC down the line, but simultaneously don't hurt them now, so they can deal with the Federation.

Also, Federation appearing is hardly their fault, unless you want to make Sketch symbol for all Laissez-faire, which wouldn't really be fair, since everyone practiced it.
 
McLuvin said:
Except they could've sold to virtually anyone else except Nohon, who they know we hate and they do it whilst we are cleaning up their mess and problems they caused.

It's like someone setting a hotel on fire then going out and letting a rabid dog into the Fireman's house with his family whilst he's out.
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Because they want access to the Hung, and the Nohon hold the keys to the most profitable Hung trade now.
 
Fouredged Sword said:
Yeah, but we get PW discounts for plans by other groups. If we give minir lawmaking ti both we will get lots of options to choose from every midturn and can veto if we don't like any.

We run out of PW ALL THE TIME. We can't omake everything.
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....We can't veto all the time without pissing them off. Literally there's no point in expanding Upper House powers, it just makes it more difficult to stop them being stupid Nobles.

I trust Nokly and Yenyna a whole lot more than I do the Upper House, and my plan only used 8 PW, not that bad overall.
 
Also, just going to note that Broad assembly gives +1 Happiness.

Not temp happiness, but Perm Happiness.

And WoAN on Broad Assembly:
AN Discord said:
You do know that even under a broad assembly you can still disperse a riot

Like, "Broad" is more or less what we have in the West
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Random Member said:
I mean.... going down the list is upgrading our form of government.
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Is it?

Freely giving out power to people who are not necessarily trained or qualified to wield it is an upgrade?

No, I really don't think doing things like just giving the nobles the power of the purse is absolutely an upgrade, because they may just use it to fund their own projects over other people's actions and interests. We're giving people more freedoms and that's great and all, but we aren't giving them any real checks on those freedoms outside of not dishing out freedoms as fast as possible. It is literally opening the doors to corruption and doing nothing to stop it via constitution.

Now, don't get me wrong, some of those things are an upgrade. Others are a sidegrade. A few others are just dangerous under most circumstances.

But yeah, really not a fan of how ConCons go down. For all that many of the questers claim to want to try and create an actual modern monarchy, few (of the ones who claim to want it, I'm not counting the republic or death people) are actually wiling to look for it in any real form and our government 'upgrades' pretty much center around making the monarchy as completely worthless and replacing it with glorious republic as possible.

You'd think an absolutist monarchy would be invested in finding an alternate route that isn't so blatantly leading to republicanism, but we aren't even really trying.
 
Huh. I expected more issues to vote on. Like how to gain citizenship. Especially since some nobles have suggested alternatives to military service. Which I would be very much in favour of. It would also be very relevant with so many new people coming in.

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I really want to give LH and UH equal power, whether that be Minor Lawmaking or Veto. Though I'm leaning towards Minor Lawmaking since that does seem to give us extra PW, which is excellent.
 
[] The Equality of Man Plan
-[] [UH] 2 PW - Power of the purse
-[] [LH] 6 PW - Power of the purse
-[] [Assembly] 0 PW - Limited
-[] [Press] 2 PW - Free press (-1 Temp Happiness, Min. Consciousness from Education Increased by 1, Academic Freedom Provides Half Consciousness to Innovation)

Here's another suggestion, on the basis of equalising the UH and LH. It does only give +1 happiness though.
 
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