What? We would have to distribute land sooner or later.
Paths of Civilization II: Paths of Industrialization
What? We would have to distribute land sooner or later.
Something something, meritocracy through more population. Which did happen, but it also made elites even better at both their jobs and getting what they want, something that is pretty obvious in hindsight.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
So the technicians monitoring my brain decided to run an experiment to see if they could still generator power for emergency purposes off of the residual heat in a shut down core.
This went about as well as expected.
Anyway, I think I am going to have to have a round table or something to discuss things.
This went about as well as expected.
Anyway, I think I am going to have to have a round table or something to discuss things.
- Location
- Huezil
Get us some batteries and some jump cables, we will jump start you ASAP.
Even if we have to change your name to Academia Frankensnut.
10ebbor10
DON'T PANIC
- Location
- Present
Starting the reactor wasn't exactly the trouble at Chernobyl. In fact, it worked great, it completed thr 5 year plan for heat production in roughly 20 seconds.
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- Location
- United States
Since I was tagged in the post that started this all by @Malevolo, I feel like I should throw my hat into the ring.
Green Metalight can easily be a boon for the whole of the nation (or at least most of it), so long as we are willing to put effort into it.
We could spread it between schools and hospitals, but that range would only extend so long as we build more of these institutions.
I worry about those who wish to push forward with the Green while also saying they are again creating a new elite, since so long as we don't focus on building this infrastructure to spread institutions throughout our lands, the Green will also not spread beyond the elite living in the cities.
I feel that we should either dedicate ourselves to pushing through these schools and hospitals and other infrastructure projects until there is one for every place where there are citizens, or we should retard the development of the Green so that this metalight elite cannot gain more traction than it already has.
Green Metalight can easily be a boon for the whole of the nation (or at least most of it), so long as we are willing to put effort into it.
We could spread it between schools and hospitals, but that range would only extend so long as we build more of these institutions.
I worry about those who wish to push forward with the Green while also saying they are again creating a new elite, since so long as we don't focus on building this infrastructure to spread institutions throughout our lands, the Green will also not spread beyond the elite living in the cities.
I feel that we should either dedicate ourselves to pushing through these schools and hospitals and other infrastructure projects until there is one for every place where there are citizens, or we should retard the development of the Green so that this metalight elite cannot gain more traction than it already has.
Powerofmind
In Madness Fallen
- Location
- United States
Societal rise and fall is a natural element to civilization. There can be no ideal solution to a systemic issue because nothing is ideal. Wear and tear happens.
In regard to the "we must prevent the elite from ruining our pretty empire" nonsense... democracy hasn't exactly done wonders itself over the course of centuries either. Meritocracy has historically lasted the longest, but also accrues the most internal rot before upheaval.
The question is not "how do we solve this?" The question is "which type of failure is most palatable in the long term?" And if that's what you want to know, then it basically boils down to which form of governments are known to collapse without destroying the lives of their populations too badly.
In regard to the "we must prevent the elite from ruining our pretty empire" nonsense... democracy hasn't exactly done wonders itself over the course of centuries either. Meritocracy has historically lasted the longest, but also accrues the most internal rot before upheaval.
The question is not "how do we solve this?" The question is "which type of failure is most palatable in the long term?" And if that's what you want to know, then it basically boils down to which form of governments are known to collapse without destroying the lives of their populations too badly.
Random Member
Gardener of Human Happiness
- Location
- Behind You
*snort*
Fat chance. We'll be too busy playing silly imperialist games with the Syffrinites and putting out the fires our shitty colonists cause.
But we're also hurling into the modern era where there are no guide except for what we charted ourselves. Before long, we will evolve into a globalized interdependent civilization, where rot in one nations affect the well being of others.
Powerofmind
In Madness Fallen
- Location
- United States
History always repeats. The modern era is a comparatively weird century compared to several millennia of human civilization, like the Roman Empire or the empire of China are weird in that they didn't completely collapse when the wheel of plenty turned against them. But the wheel did turn.
Resources aren't infinite, regardless of the apparent state of the modern world. It can even be argued that the centuries of modern cornucopia are finally ending as the world is experiencing an increasingly obvious downward trend socially and economically. People are factionalizing, alliances and treaties are breaking, and the optimism for the future that the 20th century had is all but dead and buried under disillusionment and resentment while the percentage of people living under the median continues to rise. And nobody is doing okay in the mess. The dictators, the prime ministers and presidents, and everything in between, are struggling to control the general discontent in every country. The wheel is turning, still. It's a bitter pill, but it's a pill we have to swallow, we're living in the transition to the modern dark ages.
Random Member
Gardener of Human Happiness
- Location
- Behind You
Interlude from the POV of an average Gylmaryn proletarian?
It'd be hilarious!
Are we really running out of resources or is the collective poisoning of the well finally getting to us?
Wiadi
Uncompromising Radical Leftist
- Location
- Something Clever
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I dunno, the wealthy capitalists hoarding all of those oh-so-scarce resources seem to be having a pretty fine time of it (& if they're not, that's down to human psychology, not material conditions).
I do not buy it. I personally think climate change is going to be a hurdle to get over, but one that we WILL beat and come out stronger for it. I think what you are seeing as "declining" optimisim is infact the optimisim of the past two generations slowly turning out to be unsustainable as we recover from WW2. The world slowly returns to a natural state without a single superpower. We can support the whole world on standards of living that match post WW2 America. Rampent materialism has infected us with a poison euni that will take a few generations to sort out.
Powerofmind
In Madness Fallen
- Location
- United States
We're running out of quite a few things. Gold especially is very scarce, which is bad for tech firms in particular. Usable water is a problem even in developed countries, and fuels are becoming dangerous to use solely because burning them releases too much energy into the ecosystem that can't be immediately absorbed.
The real threat is more in the social problems of the era though.
Corporate fiefdom isn't out of the question. Let it not be said that the dukes and kings of the early millennium didn't enjoy the fruits of everyone else's labor.
Without expelling a great deal of heat off-planet, climate change is pretty much here to stay, and will only be overcome by learning to live with what we've created than by fixing it.
As to the rest... a sum total of perhaps four or five rich old men own every media outlet in the US, and each of them have made it their personal duty to manufacture factionalism in just this country alone. Ever notice how the general trend is to claim that "if it weren't for the others that aren't in the know/true believers/our people/our brothers and sisters", everything would just be indescribably better? I say that because none of them can describe how it would be better, because they can't. If not for those gun nuts, if not for those illegal immigrants, if not for those backwards conservative Christians, if not for the LGBTQ poisoning our children's minds, if not for them that should be removed and persecuted for their wrongness.
It reeks of fascism, but everyone's willing to buy some, because things are going wrong and nobody wants to shoulder the fraction of the blame they deserve.
I posted up that falling empire quest. But I fucked it up. I should have forced the modern analogue, because the modern world is being literally consumed by near-fascist factionalism and finger-pointing, and god help whichever country elects the next angry Austrian promising to have the final solution.
Powerofmind
In Madness Fallen
- Location
- United States
My argument stands. Don't be so anal about social stratification. It happens, and most solutions tend to cause as many problems elsewhere as they fix in the area of concern.
Random Member
Gardener of Human Happiness
- Location
- Behind You
Screw that! Revolution all day, every day! Sure, it might not solve most (or any) problems, but it allows me to chop of the heads of reactionaries. And isn't that what's most important in life?
Powerofmind
In Madness Fallen
- Location
- United States
I do believe it was Andrew Jackson who said a country should have a good revolution semi-centennially to keep things fresh.
ExNihilo
SPACE!
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[Robspierre wants to know your location]
Random Member
Gardener of Human Happiness
- Location
- Behind You
Anyway, the Metagreen scarcity is basically enforced by it being a strictly limited resource, the amount of sunlight needed means that metagreen availability is a strict formula of land area...which just plain means that only populations which can afford the equivalent of a penthouse apartment can have enough of it in the cities. and the number is only get worse as urban population density rises.
Most of us live in cities yeah? Think of how many hours of direct natural sunlight you get per day. How much of your home has direct sunlight for more than a few hours a day? This is like electric lights, until you can decouple metalight availability from sunlight availability this will be an issue.
Metagreen is intrinsically elitist in the same way good horses were, whoever is in charge will benefit from it, and yes, that will continue to reinforce and validate a noble class...but we're in the 19th Century.
A Metagreen Warrior is just a cataphract. They can carry bigger guns, run faster, and wear more armor, but they'd go down to an artillery strike, or for the matter, sustained mass fire would kill one just fine. They're more mobile than a tank, but tanks are way easier to replace. They're never going to be relevant in air power, while in the navy they're of no benefit in the cramped quarters of boarding. A frag grenade might fail on their armor, but the second or third would kill them from concussion.
A Metagreen Warrior is supported by thousands of people in logistics. Theres their factory made guns and armor, the foundries and mines that make those guns and armor and all those providing services to feed all those people. Theres the metagreen glass and vibrators, which is made by factories as well as academics to construct. Theres the massive amounts of high calorie foodstuffs needed to support their physique, the people who grow and transport that.
What all this means is that they cannot, as a certain communist in/escaping from gulag claims, oppress people as much as they want. They NEED those people working and at least happy enough to not be rioting. They need an economy so that their children can continue to be warrior caste supermen. They need an actual education system because you can't maintain the Metalight systems without scholars and scientists, and you need more of those than you have metalight for.
And really, the difference between an oligarchy isn't TOO different from modern democracy. Most modern democratic politicians are from families of politicians or at least business/military elites.
So what do we do? Accountability. Religious and cultural forces keeps the hereditary elite class toeing the line via internal pressure.
Meanwhile we work on "The only way out is through".
If we don't make a breakthrough on converting other forms of energy into metalight, then we're damned well going to get Solar Mirrors up in space to get enough metalight!
Most of us live in cities yeah? Think of how many hours of direct natural sunlight you get per day. How much of your home has direct sunlight for more than a few hours a day? This is like electric lights, until you can decouple metalight availability from sunlight availability this will be an issue.
Metagreen is intrinsically elitist in the same way good horses were, whoever is in charge will benefit from it, and yes, that will continue to reinforce and validate a noble class...but we're in the 19th Century.
A Metagreen Warrior is just a cataphract. They can carry bigger guns, run faster, and wear more armor, but they'd go down to an artillery strike, or for the matter, sustained mass fire would kill one just fine. They're more mobile than a tank, but tanks are way easier to replace. They're never going to be relevant in air power, while in the navy they're of no benefit in the cramped quarters of boarding. A frag grenade might fail on their armor, but the second or third would kill them from concussion.
A Metagreen Warrior is supported by thousands of people in logistics. Theres their factory made guns and armor, the foundries and mines that make those guns and armor and all those providing services to feed all those people. Theres the metagreen glass and vibrators, which is made by factories as well as academics to construct. Theres the massive amounts of high calorie foodstuffs needed to support their physique, the people who grow and transport that.
What all this means is that they cannot, as a certain communist in/escaping from gulag claims, oppress people as much as they want. They NEED those people working and at least happy enough to not be rioting. They need an economy so that their children can continue to be warrior caste supermen. They need an actual education system because you can't maintain the Metalight systems without scholars and scientists, and you need more of those than you have metalight for.
And really, the difference between an oligarchy isn't TOO different from modern democracy. Most modern democratic politicians are from families of politicians or at least business/military elites.
So what do we do? Accountability. Religious and cultural forces keeps the hereditary elite class toeing the line via internal pressure.
Meanwhile we work on "The only way out is through".
If we don't make a breakthrough on converting other forms of energy into metalight, then we're damned well going to get Solar Mirrors up in space to get enough metalight!
Actually, considering we haven't really started plopping sky scrappers down all around our cities, I can see urbanization taking a dramatically different turn unless this is kept a secret for over half a century. I can easily see building height limits being placed in order to stop many concerns for stealing metalight. Since we're also still going to see many fewer people need to practice agriculture as industrialization continues, thus getting more technicians, thus speeding up industrialization, we're probably going to see a much different nobility, even if they are still ruling families. People will start to care a lot more about politics as education increases and they aren't stuck in the middle of nowhere farming for their entire life.
Also, not that I'm not horribly involved in another quest, but is this starting up again?
Also, not that I'm not horribly involved in another quest, but is this starting up again?
10ebbor10
DON'T PANIC
- Location
- Present
I don't expect that to be the case, for the same reason that airplanes didn't cause the end of urbanization. Sure, you need a lot of space to put them, but the vast majority of those who live in the cities can't afford it anyway.
Also, you need pure sunlight for the system to work. Any kind of smog or clouds decreases efficiency, which means that metalight will try to stay outside of cities.
Also, you need pure sunlight for the system to work. Any kind of smog or clouds decreases efficiency, which means that metalight will try to stay outside of cities.
- Location
- PA
^ This. OTL we've still not found a perfect way to govern things but the way I see it it's like how we thought of the Blight for so many turns as a BAD THING rather then simply another part of the natural cycle to manage as we will-the more we double down on/focus on making a thing work the better we get at it and the more fleshed out the philosophy behind it is. We've got plenty of Noblesse oblige thinking that counteracts the 'why don't I just abuse the pathetic serfs under my command?' issue that comes from the belief of being nobility, as I understand the situation.