Shows how many orks have died since the invasion that Grok leading a warband of 600 orcs from different clans puts him in the running for Warchief.
It's not necessarily the size of the force. Those 600 are a fighting force, mostly male, composed from multiple clans in a fairly cohesive manner, who have been led to a real war recently. They have families back home, so actually that 600 is more like 3000 maybe when you count their communities. Therefore that becomes a potentially quite large clan if you look at it like that. Similarly, Grok has gone round hoovering up other clans and wandering Orcs, and therefore his capacity for unification again is a threat, as would be his political stance, connections, and skills etc.
There's also a point that due to his fairly passive policies, Thrall is generally opposed to sending large military groups out. Grok has managed to create his own, again that's a threat etc etc.
Lots of this is about perception though. I've not necessarily thoguht abotu how many orcs there are, but there can't be that many given they got into wars, had lots of demographic shocks etc.
Question about Ork population size in the central Eastern Kingdoms: Hammerfall had 1,000 orcs before Grok visited and had 200 of them leave with him.
The other three groups in the area are Warsong in the hills, Frost Wolves in the Alterac valley and Dragonmaw to the South on the Coast and island chain.
Which element would you say is larger? And who would be considered more organized?
They're all different groups. The Frostwolves went from being a very small clan, to absorbing lots of the clanless orcs post-camps. With Thrall's patronage and leadership they grew very quickly, with the clanless adopting their traditions etc. They probably have 2000 across the mountains, probably with 1000 in Alterac Valley itself as their main area.
The Warsong are a remnant miltiary force, who got left behind because htey were the Horde's scouts and outriders, and are one part of the Warsong in modern Azeroth, the other large part being over in Ashenvale. They also have about 2000, but are less cohesive as they haven't had a chief in a while, and are really more just a military force now of raiders etc.
As previously mentioned, both of those groups have a symbiotic relationship with the Hammerfall orcs.
The Dragonmaw comparably are leftovers from the Second War. While they weren't necessarily a large clan, and have suffered setbacks, they also have powerful weapons including the dragons, and they we've been able to maintain their traditions and ways of life, and are therefore significantly more cohesive, with a current alliance iwth the Black Dragonflight which also helps them. They probably have more, perhaps 5000 across all their locations, including raids on the Wetlands, their base in the Highlands. More importantly though, they have continued alliance with the Dark Horde and can therefore probably do population exchange programmes, given that the Dark Horde is probably still doing the whole 'fel fast aging' thing.
Furthermore then, how does Grok's status as an exile mesh in with all this? It's been a while, but I remember exile largely having as much meaning as the orcs themselves are willing to put into it, but is Grok essentially no longer part of Thrall's horde, or is he only as much of it as he considers himself to be?
Yea so exile is a social status, rather than a legal one. Thrall needed to blame someone, and because of your lie, couldn't blame your clan. He then has to back up his decision otherwise he looks weak, therefore he can't still be publically annoyed with the BB. However, Feldad cares very little about the exile and is obviously actively supporting you. It's also difficult because most Orcs wouldn't agree with the exile anyway, as they didn't when you went to Hammerfall. You didn't, for example, kill a child or commit some heinous crime, you got caught in a somewhat complex series of events and honourably took the fall for it.
So if you tell someone you're an exile, while that may be technically correct, they'll look at your well supplied army, bodyguards, and the big banner you wear about with your clan sigil on it and say 'oh yea sure thing you are'.
As such it's complicated in terms of what Grok thinks. So far it's not relevant, but it will be eventually when you actually encounter some Horde stuff again. Hammerfall was a cut off area, the Forsaken haven't really been doing much with the Horde anyway. Eventually if you spoke to Drek'Thar, Nazgrel, someone like that, Grok (and therefore the voters) would be confronted with this problem.
So basically I'd say it's pretty complicated. There are various perspectives on it, from Thrall's to Feldad's to Grok himself, to others who happen to perceive him. Some people likely perceive him as a deniable asset acting under the Horde's orders still, others will legitimately understand Thrall's political issues and therefore that you're not really part of the Horde.
I suppose at present, the central part would be that Grok wouldn't be obliged to obey someone from the Horde if they ordered him about. He wouldn't necessariyl have to do particular things, but it's still complicated.
On the matter of claims and the Forsaken, how strong are those claims now? As said, the Forsaken been more, or less defeated, and being forced into exile to Desolace. It seems to be whatever legal right the Forsaken had to being the successor to old Lordaeron is dead in the water and the same for the Undercity an flooded ruined.
Well, I doubt the Alliance has laws on property rights for dead people. Certainly for several years the Forsaken were perceived just as either secret Scourge, or just weirdos. Arthas has lost rights to the throne because he's a traitor, and following the Perenolde Precedent, he's not the king anymore etc. Dathrohan is claiming he has Calia Menethil about, who would therefore be the legal ruler. Comparably, the Forsaken themselves feel they have legitimate rights to the lands they once occupied while alive. However, from the Scarlet perspective, the Forsaken have been fighting them for several years, and therefore could be classified as bandits and would lose their legal rights, even if said rights were acknoledged.
I think the position of the 'Scarlet Forsaken' is somewhat more complex, but I doubt they hold any more rights than 'we havent killed you yet'.
However, as noted, they've evacuated now. As such any rights they did have, they've now abdicated.
Is Thrall in a manner of speaking....happy the Horde is cutting itself loose from the Eastern Kingdoms? You even said Thrall would happily trade the Forsaken for a Crusader Lordaeron and now he would be dealing with the exile Forsaken.
So the Horde is only in the EK to keep and eye on Horde stuff. They're in Gromgol to watch the trolls, because that's where the Darkspear are from. They're in the Hinterlands to help their allies the Revantusk, and they were in Kargath and Stonard to watch the Dark Horde and Dark Portal. They were in Lordaeron to continue their alliance with the Forsaken and to hopefully get a base and resources from northern Lordaeron, notably lumber, but they really don't have that many interests there. If the Crusade would talk to Thrall's Horde, he'd be pretty happy with that.
I'm not sure this would necesasrily mean he'd be 'happy'. After all, this is a serious blow to a Warchief who's meant to honour alliances etc. But Thrall, having been human-educated, would be aware of some opportunities around.
In general, there'll be a bit of a reassessment given the change in strategic situation. A suddenly revitalised alliance, significantly led by the quite powerful Scarlet Crusade, as well as greater engagement from Kul Tiras etc, does indeed require a strategic rethink, whcih is something Thrall will be considering now.
