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Maps of Germany's 1937 borders.
Merkels Operation Walküre
- Thread starter Tyr Anazasi
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- Timeline Post-1900 Supernatural
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- isot (isekai) germany
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Maps of Germany's 1937 borders.
If i remember correctly,some GDR politicans opposed unification,too.And i could undestandt that - it is nice to be bigger toad in small pond, then small one in big pond.
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But the problem with that is, by the late 1980s, the GDR was broke. Had there been no reunification, you'd see millions of East Germans voting with their feet, flooding the border to get to the FRG.
That was why Mitterand accepted reunification as fait accompli despite being personally opposed to it. Ditto for the Soviets, and also because the Germans were willing to give so much (up to 100 billion DM IIRC) just to be allowed to reunify. Take as much as the Germans were willing to give, and then move on.
The only way to prevent official or unofficial reunification, would be for both NATO and the Soviets/Russians to station troops along the border, and keep the East Germans from flooding into the FRG at gunpoint. Or build Berlin Wall 2.0 Electric Boogaloo across the whole border. Good luck trying to sell that to the public in the west, and in the east the Soviets/Russian leadership had no will or desire to do so either.
It's honestly a miracle that a certain old lady didn't get tossed out on her ass when she suggested cooperating with the Soviets/Russians to enforce the permanent division of the German nation.
Can someone fill the clueless American (namely, me) in on who this is referring to? Because I have no idea.
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Margaret Thatcher; back in the 1990s, she ran around with a bunch of maps of Germany as it was in 1937, ranting about how Germany reuniting would essentially amount to making the Allied victory in WWII meaningless, how a reunited Germany would be the Fourth Reich, and would start WWIII to regain its 1937 borders followed by Lebensraum im Osten.
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- Hamburg, Germany
The Soviets got 55 billion DM (as of 1990). Perhaps they could have gotten more. But that was their price. Gorbatschow saw soon, that there was nothing he could do to prevent. Some others saw it different, especially in his foreign ministry. That gave Thatcher hope to work together with them. But in reality I doubt there was something they could do. In the west nobody could understand that and the Soviets were no able to finance yet another war, a war to gain nothing. Indeed it was Soviet policy to get rid off these costly sattellite states. Mitterand finally relented, also because I think, that he was promised, the Germans would give up the DM (what has been denied by official sources, but the French started their talks that they wanted to talk about the German nukes first. The Germans were perplex, as they said, they had no nukes. The French had nukes. The French said yes, but the Germans had the DM and they were using it every day.). So Thatcher tried to do everything to torpedo the reunification.
The Germans, who had been promised, their Allies would support their reunification, were very upset with their "Allies" answer. As the other European "partners" were at first also hostile. Genscher finally caught them up. These anti-german resentments are still there. Just today I read in the Hamburger Abendblatt, that some fear, that we come too well out of this Corona-crisis... Well, if they had done their homework in the last decade they would be in a similar situation.
BTW, Thatcher forbade, that Kohl was visiting her funeral. I found it funny, that many broadcasted "The Witch is dead," when she had died.
The Germans, who had been promised, their Allies would support their reunification, were very upset with their "Allies" answer. As the other European "partners" were at first also hostile. Genscher finally caught them up. These anti-german resentments are still there. Just today I read in the Hamburger Abendblatt, that some fear, that we come too well out of this Corona-crisis... Well, if they had done their homework in the last decade they would be in a similar situation.
BTW, Thatcher forbade, that Kohl was visiting her funeral. I found it funny, that many broadcasted "The Witch is dead," when she had died.
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- Hamburg, Germany
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I'm not too sure about this, but I remember one source a while back stating that Bush at one point told Thatcher and Mitterand that if they didn't let Germany reunite, he'd take America out of NATO, give Germany a green light to do likewise, and then form an alliance with a united Germany.
What is DM in this context if not their currency which doesn't make much sense?
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- Hamburg, Germany
- Pronouns
- Mordi
When will we bomb the us? I hope operation ...will be an atomic bomb because it will be the only thing keeping roosevelt definitly down.
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They already did twice. The following were the targets.
First air raid: Los Alamos and Oak Ridge Nuclear Research Facilities.
Second air raid: Panama Canal Locks, Atlantic Seaboard Refineries, Brooklyn and Philadelphia Naval Yards, and New York War Material Supply Dumps and Depots.
Also included in the second air raid were the Montreal and Chalk River Nuclear Research Facilities in Canada.
That is a common misconception!
The GDR wasn't broke. It had a solid budget in the green. It's problem was that it was the bank of the east.
The states of the east were broke and didn't pay their debts, which spelled trouble for the GDR.
Without the repayment of the debts the GDR couldn't pay for its ressource imports (e.g. oil)
That is what meant trouble for the GDR-economy.
The standard of living in the GDR in 1989 was comparable to iraq before the last gulf war, syria before the civil war, or cuba today.
The main reason why so many internal problems was the other example in front of the door (West-Berlin).
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- Hamburg, Germany
I beg to differ. The GDR needed cash. And with cash I meant real money.
www.welt.de
Therefore they even needed loans from West Germany to survive.
Strauß’ Milliardenkredit: Wie die DDR den CSU-Chef über den Tisch zog - WELT
Im Sommer 1983 drohte der DDR die Zahlungsunfähigkeit. Ausgerechnet Franz Josef Strauß fädelte einen Milliardenkredit der Bundesrepublik ein. Eine neue Aktenstudie zeigt, wie die SED dabei trickste.
Therefore they even needed loans from West Germany to survive.
Yes the GDR needed cash. This means liquidity, to pay for it's imports because the states of the east stopped the repayments of their loans.
So yes, they needed tho loan to survive. But this doesn't disprove my point and neither does your article.
And the East-Mark was real money! It just wasn't an accepted affluent currency in the west.
So yes, they needed tho loan to survive. But this doesn't disprove my point and neither does your article.
And the East-Mark was real money! It just wasn't an accepted affluent currency in the west.
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- Largest City West of the Rhine, Germany
According to my understanding this Need for Money was caused by the Soviet Union by, beginning approx. 1980, reducing the ammount of Oil it sent to support the various States of the Warsaw Packt, which they(inculing the DDR) would then either use internaly or sell to the West giving them the cash they needed for their imports. So the DDR was forced to take loans from the West to pay for those Imports.
In the short term the loans from the BRD kept the DDR afloat, but since they made no headway in repaying them(the Armsrace with the West was Eating anything that could have been used), they (the DDR) could not pay for the all the repairs/upgrades the various Industries of the DDR needed at the end of the 1980s. Since the SU was just as badly off as the DDR they couldn't do much to help either.
As for the East-Mark not being real Money, the main Problem was that the SU han't joined the Bretton-Woods Agreement (even if by the 80s that Agreement had mostly fallen apart) and that the Data About their economy was deemed a national secert (and that Data is what Western Nations use to determine the Value of their money).
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What's going on with USA are they really going to try to reduce Germany to third world country if Germany is lucky and what the Soviets doing?
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- Hamburg, Germany
The Soviets made peace and are delivering resources. Roosevelt is still playing Cato the Elder: Ceterum censeo Germaniam esse delendam.
Are the German aware of what rosevelt
playing and what's going on with rest of USA allies specially the British, Commonwealth,France and Italy also what do you mean Cato the elder?
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The Morgenthau Plan is very much known to the Germans. For the uptime Germans, facing the prospect of what was once an academic possibility turning into horrifying reality is rather...shocking. For the downtime Germans, as per OTL, it stiffens resistance against the West. Also, together with the bombings of Munster and Berlin, it drove home for non-ethnic German Germans the hollowness of American hegemony (probably stained from OTL thanks to the Iraq War as the latest in a long list of American BS in the 20th Century aimed at ensuring American economic and military supremacy at the expense of local democratic institutions in Third World Countries) that in hindsight should have been obvious ever since the Banana Wars of the 19th century.
Britain and the Commonwealth wants peace. France...which one? Italy...wondering if they should change sides again.
Cato Sicarius had a habit of ending all his speeches with "Carthage (modern day Tunis) must be destroyed", even if the speech had nothing to with Carthage in the first place.
Vichy France is the best choice
since I doubt free France will agree to any terms that lets Germany maintain it's power specially with 21th tech specially if Germany want to return to 1914 borders and Vichy France are more likely to agree specially if Germany agrees to share some tech and maybe return control of occupied France except for Atlantic coast for duration of hostilies to ensure the allies don't try d day again against Vichy France plus assurance that they will do their best to return France colonies that are under allied control also what are the borders 0f eastern Europe with Russia
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- Hamburg, Germany
While Vichy is the better choice, the Germans had already recognized de Gaulle. That this was too fast, I agree. But i don't want to make Germany making no errors. Italy, which had changed the sides TWICE at the expense of Germany, would want to, but such a turn would need time- and trust. Currently the Germans don't trust the Italians.
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Elsass-Lothringen and Eupen-Malmedy are so going to be major sticking points when it's time to start talking with De Gaulle -_-
Then again, recognition can always be withdrawn, say...for instance, he goes the way of the Poles, i.e. he decides to stick with FDR and fight to the last man, woman, and child, to obliterate the German nation and wipe the German race off the face of the planet.
Then again, recognition can always be withdrawn, say...for instance, he goes the way of the Poles, i.e. he decides to stick with FDR and fight to the last man, woman, and child, to obliterate the German nation and wipe the German race off the face of the planet.
It is great that mistakes of both sides are added in and recognising DeGaulle quickly based on stuff from the 50/60s is definitely one, but that might change. I agree with JaeneraTargaryen that if DeGaulle sticks with the Wallies no matter what, he will be sidelined. Berlin, esp. it´s DT-foreign politicians will push for working with Vichy first. DeGaulle might already have hesitated too long in opening full negotiations. I can see a situation where DeGaulle becomes Presidant of France, but that most of the nation will be ruled by Vichy officials.
Heck, there will be considerable pressure from the industry as well, namely Louis Renault and Ferdinand Porsche among them, both will live if DeGaulle´s Free French are reigned in. While it was covered up as an illness officially(yeah, everybody knows that a byproduct of kidney failure are hematomes and lots of bone fractures, sarcasm mode off), Renault, who was innocent of the charges labelled at him, was tortured to death after the German retreat! That not happening would be a major industrial change for France too, since during occupation Renault and his team worked on new cars and stuff, the German overseers at Renault corporation liked him and deliberately looked the other way.
Ferdinand Porsche´s health was ruined during a stay in a french prison after the war, which lead to an early death in 1951 considering his health before. Porsche was held without any prosecution or any type of accusal, credible rumours of torture are still around as well and that all following official promises of free travel! He was invited to an industry meeting and following that meeting he was imprisoned without any charges.
These crimes, just among the most prominent of them, coupled with DeGaulle´s unwillingness to really negotiate with merged Germany, should have consequences by now. I can see Petain and his gevernment put in charge of all of France following the war and braced by Germany. When the Free French finally make a treaty with the New Axis, their success in gaining posts would be very modest.
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I wouldn't be surprised if local governments and law enforcement even in Occupied France have been turned over to Vichy by now. Germany is just there to make sure the Allies can't launch a surprise landing along the Atlantic coast or the Low Countries.
In fact, if the Americans keep being intransigent, I can see Germany not only withdrawing recognition of Free France, and immediately making peace with Vichy France. Full withdrawal from French territory except for Elsass-Lothringen, where a referendum will be held to let the people choose: France or Germany. Reparations, cash for individuals aggrieved by the Third Reich's occupation, and in manufactures and heavy industrial equipment for the French state. Germany retains basing rights, but only until the Americans make peace. In that time, they'll pay rent to the French government for use of their soil as a base of operations. Germany also grants France most favored nation status when it comes to trade, and preferential terms for eventual free trade and customs and credit union with Germany.
Very generous terms, which I don't think anyone in France will reject. There'll be some mutterings in right-wing circles, and the Resistance is likely to agitate over 'selling out', but your common Frenchman will only really care for an end to the occupation, and the Germans actually paying of their own volition for the damage they caused to le patrie.
I imagine De Gaulle's standing is going to go downhill very fast in his own homeland. Even more so, given FDR's "you're either with us or against us" mentality that'll see B-17s and B-24s trying to smash French cities to deny their industry to Germany, even in peacetime.
In fact, if the Americans keep being intransigent, I can see Germany not only withdrawing recognition of Free France, and immediately making peace with Vichy France. Full withdrawal from French territory except for Elsass-Lothringen, where a referendum will be held to let the people choose: France or Germany. Reparations, cash for individuals aggrieved by the Third Reich's occupation, and in manufactures and heavy industrial equipment for the French state. Germany retains basing rights, but only until the Americans make peace. In that time, they'll pay rent to the French government for use of their soil as a base of operations. Germany also grants France most favored nation status when it comes to trade, and preferential terms for eventual free trade and customs and credit union with Germany.
Very generous terms, which I don't think anyone in France will reject. There'll be some mutterings in right-wing circles, and the Resistance is likely to agitate over 'selling out', but your common Frenchman will only really care for an end to the occupation, and the Germans actually paying of their own volition for the damage they caused to le patrie.
I imagine De Gaulle's standing is going to go downhill very fast in his own homeland. Even more so, given FDR's "you're either with us or against us" mentality that'll see B-17s and B-24s trying to smash French cities to deny their industry to Germany, even in peacetime.
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