Merkels Operation Walküre

[JaeneraTargaryen]

Speaking of upgrades, here's an (expanded) list of upgrades for the IJN cross-posted from AH.

1) Get rid of the oxygen torpedoes. The extra 10 km of range (total range of an oxygen torpedo is ~20 km) is redundant, as without homing ability you can never aim a torpedo accurately enough beyond 10 km. Not to mention oxygen torpedoes are notoriously unstable, as a glancing hit that a warship could otherwise shrug off might set them off, and sink the ship carrying them (this actually happened IRL).

2) Rebuild those pagoda masts. They're redundant thanks to radar, and otherwise make the ship too top-heavy. Fixing them would go a long way in making Japanese ships more stable.

3) Get some proper damage control training and procedures. Historical IJN damage control was badly inept. Fixing this would go a long way to reducing fleet losses.

4) Replace those crap 22 mm light AA guns with 3.7 cm Flak. The 22 mm light AA gun was slow to fire, inaccurate at long and medium range, and cumbersome to reload. The 3.7 cm Flak - get quadruple mounts if you can - would make a very painful surprise for American aircrews, and would make Japanese warships less vulnerable to air attack.

5) Install working radar and sonar. IRL the Japanese had them but they were very inferior compared to that used by the Allies. Working radar and sonar would vastly improve air defense capabilities as well as ASW capabilities, and complement the rebuilding of pagoda masts.

6) Update ASW training and equipment. The IJN historically only had a very basic understanding of ASW, and even then disregarded it as they saw submarines as of no threat to their surface fleet. Actually true, submarines were ineffective in a proper battle during WWII, except to hunt down stragglers and retreating ships. Against merchant shipping though...they were very deadly.

7) Step up development of modern planes like the Ki-84, N1K-J, and the A7M. All of them featured heavy armor as well as safety systems lacking in previous planes, and heavy armament including 20 mm cannon and heavy machine guns. The Ki-84 is considered the best fighter the Japanese ever made, a match for any late-war Allied aircraft in the Pacific, ditto for the N1K-J, and the A7M on paper was also comparable to any late-war Allied aircraft in the theater.

EDIT: Something else that can be of use to Japan from Germany, and well within their industry's ability to produce, the 7.5 cm Pak 40. It'll be a huge improvement over the 47 mm anti-tank gun they've previously been using.

 

[Darksoul2142]

Speaking of upgrades, here's an (expanded) list of upgrades for the IJN cross-posted from AH.



(1) Replace those crap 22 mm light AA guns with 3.7 cm Flak. The 22 mm light AA gun was slow to fire, inaccurate at long and medium range, and cumbersome to reload. The 3.7 cm Flak - get quadruple mounts if you can - would make a very painful surprise for American aircrews, and would make Japanese warships less vulnerable to air attack.



(2) Step up development of modern planes like the Ki-84, N1K-J, and the A7M. All of them featured heavy armor as well as safety systems lacking in previous planes, and heavy armament including 20 mm cannon and heavy machine guns. The Ki-84 is considered the best fighter the Japanese ever made, a match for any late-war Allied aircraft in the Pacific, ditto for the N1K-J, and the A7M on paper was also comparable to any late-war Allied aircraft in the theater.

(3) Something else that can be of use to Japan from Germany, and well within their industry's ability to produce, the 7.5 cm Pak 40. It'll be a huge improvement over the 47 mm anti-tank gun they've previously been using.

Click to shrink...

(1) In addition to the lend lease of surplus 3.7cm FlaK M42s, the Japanese with the help of the Germans can perfect their version of the 40mm Bofors (Type 5) and put it into production. The 40mm Bofors and 37mm FlaK M42 are more or less equal if we are talking gun v gun comparisons (equal conditions) but the 40mm Bofors was easier to load and keep up continuous fire with.

(2) Oddly enough this reminds me of the toxic cesspit known as the Japanese inter-service rivalry between the IJA and the IJN. The most important thing to do is that the Daihon'ei has to come under civilian control and a good opportunity for that will be whe- *cough* if Emperor Hirohito orders mass trials and purging of extremist elements within the Japanese military later on in the timeline. The "chain of command" would be Chief of IJA and Chief of IJN --> Minister of Army and Minister of Navy (see note 1) --> Minister of Defence ---> Prime Minister and/or Emperor Hirohito.
(note 1: The separate ministries for the IJA and the IJN could be abolished with them coming under a newly created Ministry of Defence)

Lastly, ruthless but sensible standardisation and streamlining of military equipment and areas of responsibilities respectively must take place in order to make better use of the limited resources.

(3) As far as the 75mm is concerned it is a good idea as the Japanese were already manufacturing the Type 4 75mm AA gun which also had an tank mounted variant (Type 5). The Japanese could go with your idea of licencing the 75mm PaK 40 from Germany and manufacture (or have Germany send surplus 75mm PaK 40s) or make modifications to the Type 5 to enable it to fire German 75mm ammunition.

Off-topic: Tyr Anazasi. Do you mind if I talk about things that have already happened in the old AH thread but haven't been posted here yet?
manIalwayswritelongposts

Edit no.1: This video made me prefer the 40mm Bofors over the 37mm FlaK M42. I am not sure if the cost of making programmable rounds for the 37mm will be worth it or not.

 

[Tyr Anazasi]

Speaking of upgrades, here's an (expanded) list of upgrades for the IJN cross-posted from AH.

1) Get rid of the oxygen torpedoes. The extra 10 km of range (total range of an oxygen torpedo is ~20 km) is redundant, as without homing ability you can never aim a torpedo accurately enough beyond 10 km. Not to mention oxygen torpedoes are notoriously unstable, as a glancing hit that a warship could otherwise shrug off might set them off, and sink the ship carrying them (this actually happened IRL).

2) Rebuild those pagoda masts. They're redundant thanks to radar, and otherwise make the ship too top-heavy. Fixing them would go a long way in making Japanese ships more stable.

3) Get some proper damage control training and procedures. Historical IJN damage control was badly inept. Fixing this would go a long way to reducing fleet losses.

4) Replace those crap 22 mm light AA guns with 3.7 cm Flak. The 22 mm light AA gun was slow to fire, inaccurate at long and medium range, and cumbersome to reload. The 3.7 cm Flak - get quadruple mounts if you can - would make a very painful surprise for American aircrews, and would make Japanese warships less vulnerable to air attack.

5) Install working radar and sonar. IRL the Japanese had them but they were very inferior compared to that used by the Allies. Working radar and sonar would vastly improve air defense capabilities as well as ASW capabilities, and complement the rebuilding of pagoda masts.

6) Update ASW training and equipment. The IJN historically only had a very basic understanding of ASW, and even then disregarded it as they saw submarines as of no threat to their surface fleet. Actually true, submarines were ineffective in a proper battle during WWII, except to hunt down stragglers and retreating ships. Against merchant shipping though...they were very deadly.

7) Step up development of modern planes like the Ki-84, N1K-J, and the A7M. All of them featured heavy armor as well as safety systems lacking in previous planes, and heavy armament including 20 mm cannon and heavy machine guns. The Ki-84 is considered the best fighter the Japanese ever made, a match for any late-war Allied aircraft in the Pacific, ditto for the N1K-J, and the A7M on paper was also comparable to any late-war Allied aircraft in the theater.

EDIT: Something else that can be of use to Japan from Germany, and well within their industry's ability to produce, the 7.5 cm Pak 40. It'll be a huge improvement over the 47 mm anti-tank gun they've previously been using.

Click to shrink...

I don't want go into detail, but there are some obvious things:

1. YES! There are alternatives.
2. Not possible, because of long refit times. After the war.
3. YES!!!
4. YES!!! The 3,7 cm Flak 43 could be used on less space, was lighter and had a greater rate of fire. I would introduce that weapon.
5. YES!!!
6. Dito.
7. Yes!!! And more.

7,5 cm Pak: Yes.

 

[Tyr Anazasi]

(1) In addition to the lend lease of surplus 3.7cm FlaK M42s, the Japanese with the help of the Germans can perfect their version of the 40mm Bofors (Type 5) and put it into production. The 40mm Bofors and 37mm FlaK M42 are more or less equal if we are talking gun v gun comparisons (equal conditions) but the 40mm Bofors was easier to load and keep up continuous fire with.

(2) Oddly enough this reminds me of the toxic cesspit known as the Japanese inter-service rivalry between the IJA and the IJN. The most important thing to do is that the Daihon'ei has to come under civilian control and a good opportunity for that will be whe- *cough* if Emperor Hirohito orders mass trials and purging of extremist elements within the Japanese military later on in the timeline. The "chain of command" would be Chief of IJA and Chief of IJN --> Minister of Army and Minister of Navy (see note 1) --> Minister of Defence ---> Prime Minister and/or Emperor Hirohito.
(note 1: The separate ministries for the IJA and the IJN could be abolished with them coming under a newly created Ministry of Defence)

Lastly, ruthless but sensible standardisation and streamlining of military equipment and areas of responsibilities respectively must take place in order to make better use of the limited resources.

(3) As far as the 75mm is concerned it is a good idea as the Japanese were already manufacturing the Type 4 75mm AA gun which also had an tank mounted variant (Type 5). The Japanese could go with your idea of licencing the 75mm PaK 40 from Germany and manufacture (or have Germany send surplus 75mm PaK 40s) or make modifications to the Type 5 to enable it to fire German 75mm ammunition.

Off-topic: Tyr Anazasi. Do you mind if I talk about things that have already happened in the old AH thread but haven't been posted here yet?
manIalwayswritelongposts

Click to shrink...

Hmm. I am split. However, as I did publish it already on the other side, it's possible for everyone to read it there. So yes, it's okay. BTW, I got your PM and forgot to answer. Tomorrow!

 

[Tyr Anazasi]

(1) In addition to the lend lease of surplus 3.7cm FlaK M42s, the Japanese with the help of the Germans can perfect their version of the 40mm Bofors (Type 5) and put it into production. The 40mm Bofors and 37mm FlaK M42 are more or less equal if we are talking gun v gun comparisons (equal conditions) but the 40mm Bofors was easier to load and keep up continuous fire with.

(2) Oddly enough this reminds me of the toxic cesspit known as the Japanese inter-service rivalry between the IJA and the IJN. The most important thing to do is that the Daihon'ei has to come under civilian control and a good opportunity for that will be whe- *cough* if Emperor Hirohito orders mass trials and purging of extremist elements within the Japanese military later on in the timeline. The "chain of command" would be Chief of IJA and Chief of IJN --> Minister of Army and Minister of Navy (see note 1) --> Minister of Defence ---> Prime Minister and/or Emperor Hirohito.
(note 1: The separate ministries for the IJA and the IJN could be abolished with them coming under a newly created Ministry of Defence)

Lastly, ruthless but sensible standardisation and streamlining of military equipment and areas of responsibilities respectively must take place in order to make better use of the limited resources.

(3) As far as the 75mm is concerned it is a good idea as the Japanese were already manufacturing the Type 4 75mm AA gun which also had an tank mounted variant (Type 5). The Japanese could go with your idea of licencing the 75mm PaK 40 from Germany and manufacture (or have Germany send surplus 75mm PaK 40s) or make modifications to the Type 5 to enable it to fire German 75mm ammunition.

Off-topic: Tyr Anazasi. Do you mind if I talk about things that have already happened in the old AH thread but haven't been posted here yet?
manIalwayswritelongposts

Edit no.1: This video made me prefer the 40mm Bofors over the 37mm FlaK M42. I am not sure if the cost of making programmable rounds for the 37mm will be worth it or not.

Click to shrink...

Well, the 3,7 cm 43 has a rof of 240 shots, the Bofors of 120. The weight is lower (355 to at least 470 kg) as are the dimensions, a lighter shell (1,49 to 2,10 kg) but less range. I would go with the 3,7 cm, as they have the much better firepower. Modified with proximity fuse it would give even smaller vessels enough firepower to defend themselves properly. 3 shells per second aare a better argument than 1,5 (practical values).

 

[paulobrito]

Well, the 3,7 cm 43 has a rof of 240 shots, the Bofors of 120. The weight is lower (355 to at least 470 kg) as are the dimensions, a lighter shell (1,49 to 2,10 kg) but less range. I would go with the 3,7 cm, as they have the much better firepower. Modified with proximity fuse it would give even smaller vessels enough firepower to defend themselves properly. 3 shells per second aare a better argument than 1,5 (practical values).

Click to shrink...

Proximity fuse for such a small round is problematic at best, more probably impossible for any nation outside of UT Germany. And i don't see then sending ship loads of AA ammo to Japan during the war...

 

[Tyr Anazasi]

Operation Bagration, Part 1, June 16th to August 7th 1944

Operation Begration would turn out to be a huge success, at least in the eyes of Josef Wissarionowitsch Dschugaschwili also better known as Stalin, of that he was sure. Countless hours of work and Mother Russia´s brightest minds had been put at it and it showed. Their starting point had changed, though, as had Germany which had new and great war machines they could use to wreak havoc across the whole of Russia as they had shown when they had destroyed several hydro plants, Tankograd and some other factories. Production was down by 20%, but it would only reach the soldiers on the frontline in early 1945 in form of a massive reduction of weapon supplies. Time was running out for them, therefore they had to act decisive and destroy the German war machinery to the West. They had little to show for numbers and would therefore be steamrolled by the Soviet colossus. If it meant losing more men, well, Stalin shrugged, their sacrifice would help to further the cause of the people. There still was risk, of course, but war was never without it.

That his Baltic fleet had been sunk still made Stalin bristle with indignation, but in the great scheme of things it mattered little. The war would be won on the ground and Berlin could only be reached on boots anyway. Their estimated that it would take a whole year to reach that blasted city and until then they needed to mitigate the shortfalls of their weapon production and there was only one source Russia could turn to: The Western Allies. And, indeed, they had already promised to deliver more tanks and weapons. They still needed to be careful and cautious about Germany´s new 'Wunderwaffen' but even they wouldn't be able to counterbalance the huge number of soldiers at his disposal.

The dices were thrown, the board was set and so Stalin ordered the attack to commence.

From June 16th on the Red Army began her attack with two armies attacking the Heeresgruppe Mitte with 178 artillery guns per mile firing upon the German positions. The Germans, however, had already started to draw back from these lines in a strategic withdrawal, using a flexible defence to stop any breakthroughs. The UT Luftwaffe helped greatly with that endeavour as they scouted the enemy positions and destroyed enemy air fields and artillery positions as soon as the offensive started. Yet, the number of functional modern planes was low and they couldn't be everywhere. While being able to strongly contest Soviet air superiority and cover the German retreat, they weren't able to do more.

In rapid succession the Soviets took Witebsk, Mogilew, Brobuisk and Polotsk. Stalin´s sources in Germany – of which he had few – told him that the Germans retreated in order to have less to defend. Soon, he reckoned, they would either have to give up the Baltic states or defend them. It was also helpful that this new Germany was led by this Merkel character, a woman who apparently had no abilities to maneuverer her country through these hard times. The morale of the former Wehrmacht forces was low, the officers there despised her and soon they would putsch against her, of that Stalin was sure.

On August 7th the Red Army reached Minsk.

 

[Tyr Anazasi]

A command bunker near London, June 18th, 9:36

Sir Henry Ruthven Moore, commander of the Home Fleet (HF): The situation is catastrophic. We have lost most of our ships. Only the Eastern Fleet is still a potent battle force.

First Sea Lord Viscount Cunningham of Hyndhope (FSL): Yes, it is. The US send their navy to defend us.

HF: That will save us- for the moment. If the Germans attack us again with such a force...

FSL: I know. Then there won't be much left from Britain.

HF: And I can't do anything against that. It is shocking to see Yanks defending us!

FSL: True, so true.

HF: Not only the Luftwaffe is a nightmare. Their ships as well.

FSL: What is your opinion in regards of the new ships the Germans are reported to have?

HF: Well. The Kriegsmarine ships we know. There's no real problem. The Tirpitz is damaged, as is Gneisenau. The first we should destroy as soon as possible, the latter is reported to be at Gothenhafen.

FSL: And the other ships being reported by our agents?

HF: The new modern ships are dangerous, Very dangerous. They can destroy a ship from a distance of over 100 km in short time. Long before one knows the enemy is in striking range the own ship is sunk. This is true for all ships up to a battleship. Against armoured ships they have problems.

FSL: I think the sailors on the USS Arkansas would disagree.

HF: No, that was an old battleship. A modern armoured battleship is a problem for the ships. They use for them planes or torpedoes. The only good thing is the Germans have no carrier and only a few modern submarines.

FSL: And the reports on new ships? These super carriers or this battleship they just returned to Germany?

HF: I don't believe them. I just can't think the Germans can build battleships or aircraft carriers without our knowledge.

FSL: Yes, indeed. I don't believe that they have those big ships either. It is simply not possible. The Germans need all the metal and other resources they can get for other war material than great ships. Our sources agree. They have stopped constructing anything bigger than a destroyer.

HF: The Germans know what happened to the Bismarck and they would not be irrational enough to waste supplies on more big surface ships. I think these reported ships are just replicas of surface ships to let us think they are stronger than they are indeed.

FSL: That would fit. This is the German strategy in this moment. I will advise that the ships be overlooked and other objectives of more significance be attacked.

HF: Yes. These modern ships are a danger. And unfortunately they are designed to cope with massive attacks. Any attack on them will be costly. We don't have the means to stop these guided rockets.

FSL: That means any attack will be costly.

HF: Yes, indeed. However, with sufficient numbers we can overwhelm them. Even if we lost one such battle a second they would not be able to win, as they would lack the spare rockets.

FSL: But we don't have these forces at the moment.

HF: Well, I did not talk about us. The US Navy should start to fight seriously.

FSL: I agree. We should make a plan. It won't cost us much. However, that particular reason won't be written though.

HF: Of course not!

FSL: It is still a scandal to have to rely on US protection. The Royal Navy should do this task.

HF: Yes, it is. However, we can't retreat the Eastern Fleet as we would weaken our position in Asia.

FSL: That's indeed no option. Also I would like to keep as many ships as possible away from the British islands to keep them in safety.

HF: True. But still we need some ships here. Just to show we are still able to defend Britain.

FSL: Give me a list of possible reinforcements that can be kept permanently home-based so that the Americans don't get all the recognition for defending the state.

 

[Tyr Anazasi]

Operation Bagration, Part 2, August 8th to 22th 1944: The Battle of Minsk

During the Operation Bagration the German army withdrew and only fought when necessary or inevitable, thus avoiding massive loss of life and preventing the Red Army from breaking the German lines. However, the Red Army – with its numerical superiority – forced its way towards Minks, the original goal of the operation. Here the German plans called for a stand against the Soviet forces, a fact which surprised the latter greatly as they had expected the Germans to withdraw behind their pre-war borders.

Minsk, meanwhile, should be defended by the newly formed 13th Army under Generalfeldmarschall Model which soldiers consisted of the Einsatzgruppen, Totenkopf-SS and special Gestapo officals. Additionally, there were also die-hard neo-Nazis who had volunteered for fighting against the Russians. The 13th Army had the orders to hold Minsk at all cost. It was clear, that this order fell short of an actual suicide mission, but most of the men had been lured with the promise of reduced prison sentences as it was abundant clear to Chancellor Merkel and her staff that the German juridical and penal system was ill equipped to handle the sentencing of ten thousands of people. The compromise that was finally reached was that high ranking officials would be tried while the lower levels would be given the option of being sent to the front. Those who didn't were to be tried according to the usual procedures. In the end, the 13th Army reached the number of 130,000 soldiers.

The fighting was heavy, even more so when the Red Army realised that they were fighting against the same men that had come to invade their country and ruthlessly massacred their people. Neither side did take any prisoners and the death toll grew higher and higher with each passing minute. If one thought Stalingrad had been hell, then they were taught better by what was happening in Minsk. The Germans had had time to prepare, using bobby-traps, tunnels, attacks in the rear and so on to inflict severe losses on the Soviet troops.

However, on August 13th, the Red Army finally managed to enclose Minsk totally and force the Germans back. Only the remnants of the 13th Army were now holding the city, thus binding a whole Soviet front. On August 17th the Soviets took over everything east of the Swislatsch, an attack on the German pocket on August 19th however failed. The next day, though, the Red Army managed to cut the German pocket into two smaller ones, on – the bigger one – in the quarter of Leninski, the smaller one in Frusenski.

On August 21st the Soviets took the last helicopter landing place, thus cutting off the last supply line to the Leninski pocket. The situation for the German troops was without any hope, but the next day Operation Tannenberg, the German counter offensive, would start.

 

[Tyr Anazasi]

Operation Tannenberg, praeludium, August 22nd 1944

HQ Mauerwald, near Rastenburg, East Prussia

The former Wehrmacht HQ was completely changed compared to what it had looked like a few months ago. The SS forces had left, the Nazi insignia had been torn off and the equipment had been replaced with UT one. Even the coffee had become much better, at least according to Generalfeldmarschall Manstein. On the digital maps on the screens in front of him he could see the position of every unit – even contact every single platoon. At least theoretically as many units were still not equipped with the means to communicate digitally.

"Herr Feldmarschall, the operation can be started now. We await your orders," Oberst Römer-Hillebrecht told him.

"Indeed," Manstein murmured. "Or as Frederic the Great once said: 'The fox left its lair, now I want to punish his arrogance."

"Or Murphy´s Law of Combat Operations: If your attack is going well, it´s an ambush."

Manstein laughed at that. "I don´t know who this Murphy is, but he´s goddamn right. Let´s do it then! The artillery barrage will start on 22:30 and the attack on 22:50."

 

[Tyr Anazasi]

Generalmajor Hellmuth Becker to the troops of 13. Panzerdivision "Totenkopf" prior to the Battle of Minsk:

Soldiers.

We have done a hard thankless job that needed to be done yet today the "new" Germany have no need for us. Worse they condemn us for the service we have done and intend our destruction either here in the field or in a so called court after the war. Like me you have elected to come here, to Minsk. Not because we fear the judgement of the weakling new Germany but because above all else we serve the Fatherland and Minsk is what the Fatherland needs us to do.

Men, while the Fatherland might have turned it's back on us we will never turn our backs on it. There might not be anything left for us back there but we still have Minsk. We will be the rock on which the red wave breaks, we will be the example to the people of new weakling Germany of what they have lost and our example will inspire future generations to follow in our tracks and one day to restore a National Socialist Greater Germany to it's rightful place in the world!


By CJvR

 

[Tyr Anazasi]

Operation Tannenberg, Part 1, August 22nd-23rd 1944

Near Wileika, 1. Panzerdivision, Leopard II tank of Feldwebel Kurt Knsipel, 21:54

Knispel (K): Alright, folks, we got orders. We´re to attack Ivan from here and then try to capture Baryssau this night.

Rudi: That are 80 km. In one night? Are they crazy?

Mehmet: Well, we´ve got night vision goggles, they don't. Once we´re past their lines, there shouldn't be any organised resistance anymore. Ivan´s defence positions are here, here and here. We can push right pass them and leave them for the Grennis*.

Wilhelm: Mehmet, why do you have a Swabian accent?

M: Because I´m from Stuttgart…or, rather a village nearby. Why do you wanna know?

W: Well, your name isn't all that Swabian. Laughs

M: Yeah, you´re right.

All laugh

K: Alright, we´ll see how much we achieve tomorrow, probably not as much as these eggheads want. These beasts are outstanding, but I still have some doubts.

Half an hour later the engines roared to life and another half an hour later – after a short but effective bombardment of artillery and planes – the attack commenced.

K: I´m really glad we have these night vision goggles, otherwise we wouldn't see anything in this darkness. There, one o´clock, the Soviet first line. Gunner, target Pak, distance 3.600 meters. Load HEAT.

W: HEAT.

It was a full hit. The other tanks of their formation joined the attack as well, targeting several Soviet positions. Even though the German tanks were still too far away for the Soviets to recognise them, they still fired blindly in the dark. As they expected the German tanks to be nearer than they actually were, the Soviets didn't manage to hit anything. Meanwhile, the German MBTs fired multiple times into the Soviet lines, thus creating even more havoc. Then finally, the Soviets artillery fired star shells; however, their light did also illuminate their positions. Mortar positions were attacked by the German tanks while the bigger guns fell victim to German planes.

The advantage lied on the Germans' side, but that should not last. Soviet fire became more accurate, even managing to hit Knispel´s tank.

K: Fuck That was a full hit! Everyone alright?

Everyone acknowledged. A second shell barely missed them.

M: And I thought someone was knocking on the tank.

All loughed.

K: The gun is over there! Gunner target Pak, 800 meters, 11 o´clock.

W: HEAT away.

Knispel saw yet another Pak explode. They were aiming at a tank when it was destroyed by one of their fellow tanks. Finally, they were at the Soviet lines and even though Knispel used the coaxial MG he tried to drive the enemy away instead of killing them. He wanted to give them a chance to surrender and survive, something that could not be said of everyone in the German tank command.

Soon, they were past the enemy lines and crossed into a small forest where they used the cover it provided them to rearm from their own small storage as 15 shells were spent rather fast. Behind the forest was a vast area of fields, long since abandoned by its owners who had fled with the war machinery on their heels. Knispel could make out several enemy tanks nearing.

K: Mehmet, full speed ahead. Willi, target T-34. 12 o´clock, 2.600 meters. Use HEAT. Fire at will at other targets.

The T-34 exploded as did other Soviet tanks. It was a massacre, with the Leopard 2 MTBs attacking with full speed and firing without stopping. What was designed as Soviet counter attack soon came to a standstill. Of the T-34s only eight managed to escape.

W: Kurt, we´re down to seven rounds, we need to rearm. I reckon the others have to as well.

K: Yeah, We…fuck! Soviet IS-2 tanks, two o´clock. We need to keep these bastards at bay until we get relieved. Rudi, load APFSDS, Willi, target the IS-2, 12 o´clock, range 4.000 meters.

R: APFSDS ready.

W: APFSDS on its way.

The DM63 was a kinetic projectile meaning it contained no explosives. The core consisting of tungsten carbide would penetrate the enemy armour and then copy the effect of a pump gun within the tank. The IS-2 targeted by Knispel´s crew stopped dead in its tracks after being hit. The next tank just behind was hit by the same dart and lost its turret. The infantry following the tanks was soon decimated by splinters and HEAT shells as well as even they were able to severely damage an IS-2 on distances of up to 2.500 meters. Seeing the carnage the Germans wrought upon them, the Soviets soon retreated, unopposed by the Germans who had no ammunition left to pursuit them.

A few minutes later they were relieved by a fresh unit of tanks which gave Knispel and his crew the opportunity to drive to the next provisional supply depot to rearm and to survey any damage the Soviets may have inflicted upon them. But despite several dents in the metal, Knispel could not see any damages that would have prevented them from continuing their mission, so soon after he gave the order to continue.

They made their way back to the front on which they came across several scattered Soviet units, many of which had lost any will to fight and just surrendered to the Germans. They also came across several Soviet tents, supply depots and even a full tank repair facility. While many of the former were destroyed, some of the supply depots and the tank repair facility could be captured intact, as well as several T-34 and IS-2 tanks.

After finally reaching the front again, Knispel could see his unit completely surprising the Soviet units in the hinterland. He didn't know that the enemy communication lines had been hit by bombs as well as being disrupted by electronic counter measures, resulting in chaos amongst the Soviet troops.

An hour before dawn they finally reached their objective, Baryssau. The other prong did arrive only little later. Surprised and attacked from both sides the few defenders were taken down quickly, but still the fighting lasted until noon when the last defenders surrendered. They even managed to capture a train full of intact Soviet tanks.

They had accomplished his mission and maybe, he thought, they would be ordered to either fight the pocket or to attack further. Instead they got the order to stay in the vicinity in high alert. He and his crew would use the time to rest.

********************************

Manstein's plan to close the ring around Minsk and thus trap two enemy fronts in a two pronged attack had suceeded. And although Schukow had expected such an attack, he had not expected the results. 30.000 of his men were either captured or dead, as well as hundreds of tanks and thousands of guns. His rear, which he had given his reserves for exactly such a case, had been destroyed. This meant facing the danger of being annihilated by the Germans. However, he also had a plan B, as the Third Belorussian Front had not yet fired a single shot. To receive help for them he needed to make contact with Tschernjakowski's 3rd Belorussian front

Whether the plan would succeed he had to see.

 

[JaeneraTargaryen]

Ah...Bagration. Time to retake the initiative on the Eastern Front.

 

[midnight77]

i just feel really bad for the soviets. they're never going to get the sort of closure they did OTL by defeating nazi germany.

 

[Kelenas]

i just feel really bad for the soviets. they're never going to get the sort of closure they did OTL by defeating nazi germany.

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Don't. Their "closure" in the real world involved the rape of millions of German, Polish, Hungarian, Yugoslavian, Austrian, and other nations' young girls and women by the Red Army - often perpetrated by groups.

 

[midnight77]

Don't. Their "closure" in the real world involved the rape of millions of German, Polish, Hungarian, Yugoslavian, Austrian, and other nations' young girls and women by the Red Army - often perpetrated by groups.

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I'm aware of that, but still, to fight so long and hard against a genocidal regime, only to see them beat you just as things were going your way.

 

[Kelenas]

I'm aware of that, but still, to fight so long and hard against a genocidal regime, only to see them beat you just as things were going your way.

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Okay, so you're aware that the Red Army committed one of, if not the greatest cases of mass-rape in recent history... but you feel bad that in this piece of fiction they didn't get to do it anway.

Posts like this really makes me wish the forum had a "dislike" rating.

 

[Darksoul2142]

So it begins, Operation Citadel: USSR Edition.
I look forward to reading (again) the aneurysm that Churchill and FDR would have at the inevitable armistice/ceasefire/[insert word of preference here] that Stalin will declare in the future.

I always get impressed at your idea of leaving the extremist and hard-line elements of the SS and Nazi soldiers to hold down Minsk as best as they could all while acting as a form of "capital punishment".

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I'm aware of that, but still, to fight so long and hard against a genocidal regime, only to see them beat you just as things were going your way.

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It will hurt the ego of the Soviet elite quite badly but the Soviets would have done the same (far worse imo) to Germany if they decided to invade when Germany was busy dealing with France in 1940.
Both Nazi Germany and the Soviets committed horrendous crimes against each other and I only feel at most pity for Stalin and the Soviets at the tide turning once again against them.

EDIT no.1: On the other hand the citizens of the USSR who were affected by the crimes committed by the Third Reich do deserve justice whether that be in the form of the perpetrators being given the maximum sentence (Nuremberg style trials), which if not possible at least provide them some sort of compensation. The same should, but will not because Stalin, happen for the Soviets.
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Well, the 3,7 cm 43 has a rof of 240 shots, the Bofors of 120. The weight is lower (355 to at least 470 kg) as are the dimensions, a lighter shell (1,49 to 2,10 kg) but less range. I would go with the 3,7 cm, as they have the much better firepower. Modified with proximity fuse it would give even smaller vessels enough firepower to defend themselves properly. 3 shells per second aare a better argument than 1,5 (practical values).

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Sorry, yet another long-ish post.

You are considering only the weight of the gun itself (breech block and the barrel), the gun mount's weight will also have to be taken into account.

I will write the rest of my post in bullet points since I suck at making my paragraphs flow:

(1) The 37mm FlaK M43 and the 40mm Bofors Mark 3 Mod 0 (L/60) both with manual traverse single gun mounts weigh in at 1,380 kg and 1,107 kg respectively. The 40 mm L/60 overall has a lower weight as compared to the 37 mm.


(2) To continue on, the 40mm L/70 represents a vast improvement over the L/60. The one the Bundesmarine has is I suspect a heavily modernised SAK-40/L70-520 (let's call it the 520 variant for ease) which has a powered traverse, integrated radar (like the Phalanx CIWS) and an equivalent rate of fire (240 RPM) to the 37mm (250 RPM). The integrated radar allows it to engage subsonic sea skimming cruise missiles so it should represent a significant threat to DT naval aircraft. However, the L/70-520 is significantly heavier compared to the 37mm M43 at 3,400 kg and 1,380 kg respectively.

The 37mm is a decent AA gun but modernising it will take time while you can simply start manufacturing the L/70 straight away as a licence for it was granted to Germany (not that it matters in this scenario anymore).


(3) The 37mm though can be used as a very good anti-tank gun IF you create an APFSDS round for it. The 40mm Bofors APFSDS round can penetrate about 140mm of RHA from 1,500m away so the 37mm APFSDS should be somewhat similar.

 

[JaeneraTargaryen]

Don't. Their "closure" in the real world involved the rape of millions of German, Polish, Hungarian, Yugoslavian, Austrian, and other nations' young girls and women by the Red Army - often perpetrated by groups.

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Agreed; the Soviet Union does deserve some measure of restitution (re: reparations whether in cash or manufactures) for the crimes of the Third Reich, but they don't have the blanket right to commit atrocities in their turn simply for payback's sake. Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

[midnight77]

Agreed; the Soviet Union does deserve some measure of restitution (re: reparations whether in cash or manufactures) for the crimes of the Third Reich, but they don't have the blanket right to commit atrocities in their turn simply for payback's sake. Two wrongs don't make a right.

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i never said it did?

 

[Magni]

Speaking of upgrades, here's an (expanded) list of upgrades for the IJN cross-posted from AH.

1) Get rid of the oxygen torpedoes. The extra 10 km of range (total range of an oxygen torpedo is ~20 km) is redundant, as without homing ability you can never aim a torpedo accurately enough beyond 10 km. Not to mention oxygen torpedoes are notoriously unstable, as a glancing hit that a warship could otherwise shrug off might set them off, and sink the ship carrying them (this actually happened IRL).

2) Rebuild those pagoda masts. They're redundant thanks to radar, and otherwise make the ship too top-heavy. Fixing them would go a long way in making Japanese ships more stable.

3) Get some proper damage control training and procedures. Historical IJN damage control was badly inept. Fixing this would go a long way to reducing fleet losses.

4) Replace those crap 22 mm light AA guns with 3.7 cm Flak. The 22 mm light AA gun was slow to fire, inaccurate at long and medium range, and cumbersome to reload. The 3.7 cm Flak - get quadruple mounts if you can - would make a very painful surprise for American aircrews, and would make Japanese warships less vulnerable to air attack.

5) Install working radar and sonar. IRL the Japanese had them but they were very inferior compared to that used by the Allies. Working radar and sonar would vastly improve air defense capabilities as well as ASW capabilities, and complement the rebuilding of pagoda masts.

6) Update ASW training and equipment. The IJN historically only had a very basic understanding of ASW, and even then disregarded it as they saw submarines as of no threat to their surface fleet. Actually true, submarines were ineffective in a proper battle during WWII, except to hunt down stragglers and retreating ships. Against merchant shipping though...they were very deadly.

7) Step up development of modern planes like the Ki-84, N1K-J, and the A7M. All of them featured heavy armor as well as safety systems lacking in previous planes, and heavy armament including 20 mm cannon and heavy machine guns. The Ki-84 is considered the best fighter the Japanese ever made, a match for any late-war Allied aircraft in the Pacific, ditto for the N1K-J, and the A7M on paper was also comparable to any late-war Allied aircraft in the theater.

EDIT: Something else that can be of use to Japan from Germany, and well within their industry's ability to produce, the 7.5 cm Pak 40. It'll be a huge improvement over the 47 mm anti-tank gun they've previously been using.

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The main problem here is that it's 1944 and Japan's industry is already crumbling as it is. Major changes are not something you can do in a timely manner at this point before sorting out the underlying issues of their industry first.

Now more specifically:
1) Them not being homing doesn't really matter given the way torpedos were employed in surface battles (IE, massed waves covering and area and relying on the law of averages to score a few hits) and the extra range, speed, warhead size and lesser trail are all highly desireable. By all means, eliminate the reloads on cruisers and make it doctrine to flush the tubes at the start of the fight, or even dismount them off cruisers entirely. But no way you should not keep using them on tincans and subs, both of which are going to get fucked up anyway when they take serious fire.

2) Too much effort for too little gain, not to mention that mounting optical rangefinders/fire control and radars on top of a high mast does in fact notably increase their range.

4) The 25mm were inadequate, but this is again where the industrial problem rears its head. The Japanese had a perfectly good twin-mount Bofors copy at this point, they just couldn't build enough of them.

5) Again more of an issue with production and yard time than technology, meaning that you just have a very uneven level across the fleet. Yamato probably had the best set they could make, and displayed full-on radar-based blindfire at Samar. Trying to refit older ships is likely more of an issue of space, tonnage and integration, and the limited production output you have to work with.

6) Not that much that can be done equipment-wise without breaking the bank at this point, and IJN ASW weapons were good enough overall once they sorted out some early war issues. ASW doctrine can be helped with, though they've by now started that themselves.

7) The Frank and George are in service already. The Sam you can speed up a bit, though it also has the problem of not fitting on all their carriers because the older ones have smaller elevators. Again, the real issue here is in industry and logistics. They can build Franks and George's just fine by now, they just can't build enough of them.

8) Setting up an entire new production line for an AT gun would be prohibitively expensive with the resource limitations they have to work with. A modification of their old 75mm AA gun or the Type 90 artillery gun would make more sense. In either case, this is kind of an afterthought. Having to deal with Shermans is pretty far down the list of problems the Japanese have at this point. And frankly, devising better ammo for the 47mm and getting the IJA a cheap shoulder-fired AT weapon would be a quicker and more practical solution given resource limitations and the nature of much of the fighting in the Pacific.

 

[Darksoul2142]

.

8) Setting up an entire new production line for an AT gun at this point would be prohibitively expensive comapred to the resources they have to work with. A modification of their old 75mm AA gun or the Type 91 artillery gun would make more sense. In either case, this is kind of an afterthought. Having to deal with Shermans is pretty far down the list of problems the Japanese have at this point. And frankly, devising better ammo for the 47mm and getting the IJA a cheap shoulder-fired AT weapon would be a quicker and more practical solution given resource limitations and the nature of much of the fighting in the Pacific.

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The Japanese did have the Type 3 75mm gun on the Type 3 Chi-Nu medium tank (over 100 were made starting in 1943). The performance of the gun was 100mm of pen at 100m and 65mm of pen at 1,000m and given that the 50mm Pak 38 had similar penetration and had no issues against the T-34 so the Type 3 shouldn't have issues against Shermans and especially any light tanks of the Stuart variety.

The only problem is the severe lack of raw materials and the not so good state of the Japanese industry.

 

[Magni]

The Japanese did have the Type 3 75mm gun on the Type 3 Chi-Nu medium tank (over 100 were made starting in 1943). The performance of the gun was 100mm of pen at 100m and 65mm of pen at 1,000m and given that the 50mm Pak 38 had similar penetration and had no issues against the T-34 so the Type 3 shouldn't have issues against Shermans and especially any light tanks of the Stuart variety.

The only problem is the severe lack of raw materials and the not so good state of the Japanese industry.

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Type 3 was also based on the Type 90 (not 91, I goofed there) artillery gun I mentioned.

 

[Tyr Anazasi]

Operation Tannenberg, Part 2, August 24th – 31st 1944

For Georgi Schukow, Marshal of the Soviet Union the German counter-attack per se was no surprise, but its effect was. He had expected losses, but not such a German success. Somehow he felt like Caesar at Alesia. Schukow had surrounded Minsk but was now encircled as well. He highly doubted in the figures he was given about the enemy´s strength, though; there had to be more modern tanks than the 200+ that had been reported to him. The fights at night had been a vile surprise, too, inflicting severe casualties on his troops, which left him hoping that their fortunes would turn during the day.

Schukow had ordered the Third White Russian front to follow the other two fronts, which were now enclosed. This front should be able to attack and destroy the German forces. Of course, he had ordered them to attack in daylight as a nightly attack would be pure suicide. His own forces would attack in the east in order to make contact with the Third White Russian Front. In a feint attack the 16th Army should be attacked by the 1st Baltic front. There they should be able to cut the German Army Group North from the other German forces, if it succeeded. If not, at least the Germans should have been forced to send fresh troops to rescue the 16th Army. That should give Schukow the needed relieve to break out of the encirclement.

The plan was delayed, though, when the Third Front was not within range to strike on August 24th, so it finally did start the next day. The Germans were prepared, though, as they had known about the Front when their satellites and recce planes had discovered them. Additionally, the new Soviet codes had been decoded with ease, making nearly every order known to the Germans at the very same time the Soviet officers received them.

At dawn on August 24th the Third Front attacked. The Germans countered with every force that was available to them: 100 Leopard I, 700 Leopard II, 120 M-1 Abrams, 120 Challenger II, 600 PzKw V Panther, 600 PzKw IV J, 150 PzKw VI Tiger and 64 PzKw VI Tiger II, 1.000 Marder IFV, 31 Puma IFV, 60 Warrior IFV, 300 Stryker IFV, ca. 1.000 APC, 700 assault guns and over 1.000.000 men as well as 130 Panavia Tornado, 48 EF 2000 Eurofighter, 96 F-104 G Starfighter, 32 Alpha Jets, 110 Bo 105 PAH-1 anti tank helis, 30 Tiger attack helis, 16 Mil-24 helis, 64 AH-64 Longbow helis, 1.000 DT planes and over 12.000 guns. On short notice 72 MiG 21, 24 Su-22 and 48 Fiat G-91 Gina were sent to assist the 16th army in Latvia. The Soviet used 3.000 tanks and assault guns, 20.000 artillery guns, 4.000 planes and nearly 2,5 million men in this battle. However, two-thirds of these forces were encircled.

The Soviet attack forces soon found themselves under heavy fire. While they were now able to shoot at the Germans more effectively than in the night, they were also easier targets for the Germans as well. On August 25th, they were indeed able to shortly break through the lines, but the German counter strikes stopped that quickly. After this day, the Soviet losses were so high, that a concentrated attack on German positions was no longer possible.

Furthermore, the Soviet forces in the pocket were no longer able to prevent the Germans from breaking through to Minsk and relieve the remnants of the 13th army on August 26th. The main body consisted of only 40.000 men and women under Model, most of them wounded. The smaller pocket was believed to be destroyed, but under the leadership of Colonel Skorzeny 2.500 men survived, nearly all of them wounded. Six Soviet soldiers had been taken as PoW by them, mostly high ranking officers. The Germans could only liberate four of their own that had been kept as PoW by the Soviets.

A day later the Germans started their counter attack on the Third White Russian Front. Having no supplies left and because of the high losses, Tschernjachowski gave the order to retreat. Finally, on August 29th, the Germans let him escape, only to concentrate their efforts on Schukows other two fronts. The situation became so critical for them that Schukow was ordered to travel back to Moscow for "urgent talks" and left the battlefield with the last plane. It was the commander of the 2nd White Russian Front, Army General Georgiy Sacharow, who finally surrendered the remnants of the two fronts to the Germans on 11:00 AM on August 31st.

The attack on Saucken's 16th Army had turned into a defeat for the Soviets as well. He had received hundreds of 8,8 cm Flak guns from the cities, several hundred DT tanks and planes as well as 144 jets and Milan AT missiles to counter the Soviets. With these forces, he was able to hold the position for three days when he would have been forced to start to retreat had the Soviets continued their attack. However, as it became clear the 1st Baltic Front would no longer receive any support, the offensive, which had been a kind of feint attack anyway, was terminated and the 1st Baltic Front retreated to its starting positions. Over 800 Soviet tanks and 200 planes had been destroyed and 30.000 men had died.

In the aftermath of the offensive the centre of the Eastern Front was de facto no longer existing. Stalin needed new forces soon if he wanted to continue the offensive against the Germans. However, he faced many problems: Would the Ukrainian Fronts be destroyed as well? Would he be able to build up new forces in time? And another problem was already looming on the horizon; Operation Sommersturm.

 

[Tyr Anazasi]

Losses since the beginning of Operation Bagration to August 31st

German losses:

13th Army: 55.000 men dead or missing, 30.000 wounded and evacuated (as long as it was possible, note, that civilian helicopters were used as well), 25.000 wounded, 20.000 still combat ready.

16th Army: 5.500 dead or missing, 12.000 wounded.

Army Group Center: 25.000 dead or missing, 150.000 wounded, 40.000 PoW

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Soviet losses:

pre-Minsk: 250.000 dead or missing, 600.000 wounded

Minsk: 250.000 dead or missing, 750.000 wounded

1st Baltic Front: 30.000 dead or missing, 85.000 wounded

Tannenberg (without Minsk): 300.000 dead or missing, 1.100.000 PoW (incl. 500.000 wounded)