- Location
- Asia
Wait...if Japan still holds the Pacific Islands, where are the American bombers coming from?
Merkels Operation Walküre
- Thread starter Tyr Anazasi
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- Timeline Post-1900 Supernatural
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- isot (isekai) germany
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Santander
Verified Beachresort
- Location
- Not Brockton Bay
Considering WHEN Germany was ISOTED (Is that a word?) they hold SOME Island but there were already setbacks.
Guadacanal happened in August 1944 (OT), Germany was switched in July 1944.....
The Forces for that Operation were most llikely already in place were most likely used for that Operation.
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- Location
- Asia
Would they have the range to hit Tokyo from there?
Santander
Verified Beachresort
- Location
- Not Brockton Bay
Honest?
I have no real Idea.
Its likely? I think I remember that they bombed from Islands.
- Location
- Asia
Yeah, I do too...from Saipan and Wake, both of which would still be under Japanese control right now.
- Location
- Hamburg, Germany
The bombers come from India. Very long range and not very successful, as too few planes and too few ordinance.
BTW, Guadalcanal was evacuated in 1943, not 1944. Currently the Caroline islands are under attack by the US.
BTW, Guadalcanal was evacuated in 1943, not 1944. Currently the Caroline islands are under attack by the US.
Why wasting bombs on Bletchey park ? modern germans do not use Enigma anyway, and could let british decode that to their hearts content.Fun things - Enigma was first cracked by Poland before WW2 - and England still could not say that.
And why send to Japan fighters ? modern missiles would take less place,and USA could not counter that.When USA pilots could deal with elites in Fw 190.Just like they dealed with germans in OTL.
And why send to Japan fighters ? modern missiles would take less place,and USA could not counter that.When USA pilots could deal with elites in Fw 190.Just like they dealed with germans in OTL.
NuclearBird
More issues than Reader's Digest
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Because, aside from hosting their Enigma cracking operation, Bletchley Park also hosts the Government Code and Cipher School, actively working on the diplomatic codes and cryptosystems of OVER 26 COUNTRIES, many of them either Axis-aligned or subjects of British ambitions.
I mean, who would even want to destroy one of the HQs of of the British Intelligence Services? That'd be crazy...
Second, the iteration of Enigma that the Polish managed to crack was quickly replaced by a more complex machine that simply added more rotors to the mechanism. To put it in layman's terms, that little addition, plus the addition of a switchboard that directly substituted select letters in the already-shifted input is what necessitated Alan Turing's machine, which while being similar to the Polish decryption machine, was both more advanced and faster.
Third: Germany. Cannot. Manufacture. Modern. Weapon. Systems.
They do not possess the electronics industry to provide the components that actually make modern missiles/rockets as effective as they are.
Fourth: Because the A6M Zero cannot actually keep up with US aircraft once their pilots actually start using tactics. While the Ki series fighters are formidable and in many ways solve the problems of the Zero, they are IJA aircraft, while the main need for them is in the IJN. And the rivalry between the two is legendary to the point of being comical.
Meanwhile, the Bf-109K and Fw-190D series are not only the epitome of German piston-powered fighter aircraft design, even before the ISOT-enabled upgrades and the availability of high-octane fuel, Allied pilots who got to fly the Fw-190 post-war described it as a superior fighter aircraft to their own. That's not even starting on Jet Fighters.
Lastly, combining nearly all previous points: LOGISTICS
Germany cannot even make modern missiles and high-tech equipment for domestic use, but they have a surplus of other equipment, munitions, vehicles and production capacity, etc. and it JUST SO HAPPENS that their (tentative) Far-Eastern ally is in dire need of JUST ABOUT EVERYTHING, and they are engaged in a protracted war against THE COUNTRY WITH THE HIGHEST ECONOMIC OUTPUT ON THE PLANET (That's the USA).
All other reasons being listed, simple pragmatism dictates that you keep one of your greatest and most dangerous enemies, the president of which is psychotically obsessed with destroying you utterly, busy and above all, weakened BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY.
Neepa
Always pondering story possibilities
- Location
- Germany
Strategic reasons I assume. Also to further break morale. It will greatly hamper the probable postwar ability of the UK to work in the field of electrical computing machines and stall their advancement in a couple of fields with nearly annihilating a whole decade of the most skilled scientists and engineers in them. IIRC in Betchley Park was also the largest intelligence analyst concentration of the RN and RAF. With taking those out too they hamper the ability of both services to even understand wtf the Reich is doing in the air and at sea.
As submarine warfare is still ongoing the sub crews will be very grateful for that latter part. They can also get back up to sinking all that merchant tonnage.
Will make the situation 1942 hopeless for the UK and might take them out of the war.
Does Germany even have the resources to manufacture all those modern day missiles ad infinitum? To my knowledge there are some computer chip factories in my homeland but sufficiently pure silicone could be a problem.
The logistics of only producing (near) modern equipment wouldn't work out in the slightest.
Edit: looks up Junker 022....begins to drool like the turbojet mechanic he is....I mean thats no J79 or RB199...but damn...
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NuclearBird
More issues than Reader's Digest
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I know, right? It's positively pornographic.
What about missiles from East Germany Army ? they could be produced without modern parts, and was good enough not only for stuff from 1945,but till at least 1970.East Germany had the same missiles, who made much problem for Israel in 1973,after all.
They would not fight modern jets for at least next 30 years, so they do not need modern missiles for next 30 years.
And problem with elite pilots on FW.190D - german had them,and how that helped them ?
They would not fight modern jets for at least next 30 years, so they do not need modern missiles for next 30 years.
And problem with elite pilots on FW.190D - german had them,and how that helped them ?
- Location
- Hamburg, Germany
Germany has chip manufaturers and other electronic industry. HOWEVER, it is by far not possible to build sufficient quantities needed. They need to supplement them with other means, including technology from the 60's and '70s. So the newer models of the Me 262 will have J79 engines and the ability to fire AIM 9F missiles. They even COULD use Iris-T missiles, but they are reserved to the UT wings. It's much more economical though to use R4M rockets, though.
NuclearBird
More issues than Reader's Digest
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If they have East German missiles, then they wouldn't be sending them anyway, since Germany is still at risk of aerial attack by Allied forces.
No clue on the technical sophistication of the electronics.
...huh?
[Bird.exe has encountered an Error]
The possibility of modern jets has nothing to do with this.
"Yeah, those guys won't have rifled muskets for another century! Let's have our most important units switch back to crossbows and pikes!"
The reason why Luftwaffe pilots were underperforming wasn't because they were lacking in skill. How else would you explain the ludicrous number of aces in their ranks, or the amount of kills?
Their main issue late-war was that A) Allied Air Forces outnumbered the Axis and B) Experienced pilots weren't being rotated to instructor postings frequently enough and C) Fresh pilots were being pumped out with progressively less and less training while the early-to-mid war pilots in the Luftwaffe were either veterans of the Spanish Civil War or trained by them.
- Location
- Canada
Very nice update - nice to see what is happening more int he Pacific Theatre
Anchises
Le Charismeur
- Location
- Germany
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I mean do they really need that knockout punch? If the war continues to develop like this I would seriously doubt that the United States have the resources for a knockout of Japan. Sure, they could try to starve them out but with Europe turning into an utter disaster I have my doubts how long they can continue the war.
Neepa
Always pondering story possibilities
- Location
- Germany
You do realize the J79 is nearly half as long as the 262 and nearly a meter in diameter? It will not fit on it. Something like the TA183 might be able to utilise it but the 262 is simply to small for that thing.
The afterburner flame could probably melt the tail off if mounted on the wings like the Jumo 004.
Believe me I stand in front of that thing each day at work.
A plane that would be ideal is the TA154. Made from wood and the factory producing the glue for it might still exist. A powerful strike aircraft that could become a 40ies A-10 Warthog with some guns and missiles.
NuclearBird
More issues than Reader's Digest
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- Here and There
The way I see it, the war has to continue until FDR keels over and cooler heads are ready to take charge of America.
Anything less would leave enough resentment that could potentially lead to "Ach, Scheisse! Jetzt geht es wieder los!"
It's not about forcing the enemy into economic exhaustion. You have to break their morale.
- Location
- Porto, Portugal
They can use - like the Me 262 Project - the General Electric CJ610 - a derivative of the J85, that is 60's tech.
- Location
- Hamburg, Germany
I meant the J85, sorry.
Chapter III, Part 7.2: Iron Crosses over the Land of the Rising Sun, Part 2
- Location
- Hamburg, Germany
Haneda airport, second start lane
The "Friederike" alarm (German military slang for an air attack alert) was still ringing, when Major Anton "Toni" Hackl made last pre-flight checks in his new Focke-Wulf 190-D9 "Black One". On his rear fuselage was the Winkel (chevron), the sign of the lead fighter plane, and once more the Eiserne Kreuz instead of the Balkenkreuz markings. On the rudder tail fin were victory marks, 183 in total. The group leader of the detached 3rd Group from Fighter Wing 11 was one of Germany's greatest aces at the time and nicknamed "Viermotexperte" (four-engine expert) as Anton was highly skilled in attacking bomber aircraft.
Improvements to aircraft provided by the UT Luftwaffe enabled him to increase the number of his victories even more. Anton had been one of the pilots attacking the Nuremberg bomber stream and ended that day with 7 more victories.
For a time the combined Luftwaffe Command had considered sending other aces like Otto Kittel or Georg Eder to Japan but Toni was chosen since he already was a major.
Under the wings of his "190", 24 R4M missiles were on their racks. The UT Germans had made some improvements to them, especially their accuracy, so now the pilots were not required to fire mass salvos to guarantee a hit, 2 missiles at a time were good enough, the old bombers not being nimble enough to evade the improved R4Ms. Surviving UT reports from the last war months were glowing in praise. The R4M outranged the defence weaponry of the bombers and depending on where you hit one, 1-3 R4Ms did the job.
It was not the sole modification made to his bird by their fellow countrymen from the future. The Jumo engine powering the Fw 190 had a better turbocharger installed. According to the "black crew", the mechanics, this was not the end of it. New motors were developed since the current engine could not handle the more powerful turbochargers UT Germany produced. But even with this average new turbo the Fw 190 now had far more power than the D-9 which was already an excellent fighter.
Looking around, it seemed to Anton as if he was standing in a German airfield. Most fighters assembled in Haneda were Messerschmitts and Focke-Wulfs sent over with the transport jets. Fighter production in 1944 had not been a problem for old Germany (actually OTL fighter production topped in 1944 despite all bombings), getting capable pilots were. The arrival of UT Germany had helped with that and new powerful planes allowed Germany to transfer some DT fighters to Japan.
Half of the fighters in Tokyo that day with the Sun symbol on it were of German origin, complemented with the newest variants of the Japanese fighters like the Ki-84 Hayate and some outdated planes, like the Nakajima Ki-43.
They too carried as many R4M rockets as they could, the rockets manufactured as fast as possible by several German and Japanese firms. The R4M was a potent rocket, easy to produce and a good stopgap measure until more "modern" weapons could be made in numbers needed for the war effort.
The biggest surprise for the incoming enemy would be the single Schwarm (Flight) of 4 modern Jets, the so-called "Taifun" (the DT Germans had soon labelled the jet incorrect German spelling instead English) Eurofighter. Their task, as would be the same for the first 2 squadrons of upgraded DT fighters, was to distract and destroy as many of the US command planes as possible, seeding confusion and breaking up the formations to be picked off by the intercepting force.
Since the jet fighters could reach the incoming bombers and escorts faster than the "old-time" planes, the 4 machines waited on the extended lane 1 until the piston-engined ones took off.
The Amis would be surprised in more ways than one. With modern radar, the combined German fighter force could be precisely guided to the bombers intercepting them much earlier than expected. The German and Japanese pilots knew US tactics, strengths and weaknesses of their aircraft, like the raised chances of a fire in the B-29 engines.
When Anton Hackl, Isamu Kashiide, Hugo Broch, Tetsuzo Iwamoto, Satoru Anabuki, Hiroyoshi Nishizawa and the other pilots lifted off, a new chapter in the Pacific War would soon be written.
20 km away from Gerald Johnson´s P-38 Lightning
The German recon flight shadowing the US task force, ironically with an American-built Boeing AWACS aircraft. Their second objective was to listen in on US radio communications to identify the leader planes and to scramble allied radar.
70 years of technological progress showed their devastating effects here. The Allied radar was jammed unable to detect aircraft at all, listening into the allied wireless traffic and recognising the leader planes from afar was child's play. This information was sent to the ground station in Tokyo and the fighters. The interceptors were guided unfailingly towards the bomber formation.
Anton Hackl´s FW 190 Langnase (Longnose, the nickname of the FW190 D types)
It was a different feeling from the operations of old. He received precise information on the allied attack force their, course, altitude, speed and command planes. The German-Japanese interceptors now were lying in wait, missiles "hot", with the sun to their backs. The first strike would come as a total surprise since it would be far earlier than usual. Anton had informed his pilots of the attack plan and all of them were waiting for the Americans to show up. When he recognised the approaching silhouettes, Anton´s thumb came to rest on the rocket fire button. "'Indians'* coming into range. We make pauke-pauke. Hals und Bein! Gute Jagd!"
The first wave of R4M rockets from the fighters were in flight.
*Indians=Indianer, German term for Bandits
The "Friederike" alarm (German military slang for an air attack alert) was still ringing, when Major Anton "Toni" Hackl made last pre-flight checks in his new Focke-Wulf 190-D9 "Black One". On his rear fuselage was the Winkel (chevron), the sign of the lead fighter plane, and once more the Eiserne Kreuz instead of the Balkenkreuz markings. On the rudder tail fin were victory marks, 183 in total. The group leader of the detached 3rd Group from Fighter Wing 11 was one of Germany's greatest aces at the time and nicknamed "Viermotexperte" (four-engine expert) as Anton was highly skilled in attacking bomber aircraft.
Improvements to aircraft provided by the UT Luftwaffe enabled him to increase the number of his victories even more. Anton had been one of the pilots attacking the Nuremberg bomber stream and ended that day with 7 more victories.
For a time the combined Luftwaffe Command had considered sending other aces like Otto Kittel or Georg Eder to Japan but Toni was chosen since he already was a major.
Under the wings of his "190", 24 R4M missiles were on their racks. The UT Germans had made some improvements to them, especially their accuracy, so now the pilots were not required to fire mass salvos to guarantee a hit, 2 missiles at a time were good enough, the old bombers not being nimble enough to evade the improved R4Ms. Surviving UT reports from the last war months were glowing in praise. The R4M outranged the defence weaponry of the bombers and depending on where you hit one, 1-3 R4Ms did the job.
It was not the sole modification made to his bird by their fellow countrymen from the future. The Jumo engine powering the Fw 190 had a better turbocharger installed. According to the "black crew", the mechanics, this was not the end of it. New motors were developed since the current engine could not handle the more powerful turbochargers UT Germany produced. But even with this average new turbo the Fw 190 now had far more power than the D-9 which was already an excellent fighter.
Looking around, it seemed to Anton as if he was standing in a German airfield. Most fighters assembled in Haneda were Messerschmitts and Focke-Wulfs sent over with the transport jets. Fighter production in 1944 had not been a problem for old Germany (actually OTL fighter production topped in 1944 despite all bombings), getting capable pilots were. The arrival of UT Germany had helped with that and new powerful planes allowed Germany to transfer some DT fighters to Japan.
Half of the fighters in Tokyo that day with the Sun symbol on it were of German origin, complemented with the newest variants of the Japanese fighters like the Ki-84 Hayate and some outdated planes, like the Nakajima Ki-43.
They too carried as many R4M rockets as they could, the rockets manufactured as fast as possible by several German and Japanese firms. The R4M was a potent rocket, easy to produce and a good stopgap measure until more "modern" weapons could be made in numbers needed for the war effort.
The biggest surprise for the incoming enemy would be the single Schwarm (Flight) of 4 modern Jets, the so-called "Taifun" (the DT Germans had soon labelled the jet incorrect German spelling instead English) Eurofighter. Their task, as would be the same for the first 2 squadrons of upgraded DT fighters, was to distract and destroy as many of the US command planes as possible, seeding confusion and breaking up the formations to be picked off by the intercepting force.
Since the jet fighters could reach the incoming bombers and escorts faster than the "old-time" planes, the 4 machines waited on the extended lane 1 until the piston-engined ones took off.
The Amis would be surprised in more ways than one. With modern radar, the combined German fighter force could be precisely guided to the bombers intercepting them much earlier than expected. The German and Japanese pilots knew US tactics, strengths and weaknesses of their aircraft, like the raised chances of a fire in the B-29 engines.
When Anton Hackl, Isamu Kashiide, Hugo Broch, Tetsuzo Iwamoto, Satoru Anabuki, Hiroyoshi Nishizawa and the other pilots lifted off, a new chapter in the Pacific War would soon be written.
20 km away from Gerald Johnson´s P-38 Lightning
The German recon flight shadowing the US task force, ironically with an American-built Boeing AWACS aircraft. Their second objective was to listen in on US radio communications to identify the leader planes and to scramble allied radar.
70 years of technological progress showed their devastating effects here. The Allied radar was jammed unable to detect aircraft at all, listening into the allied wireless traffic and recognising the leader planes from afar was child's play. This information was sent to the ground station in Tokyo and the fighters. The interceptors were guided unfailingly towards the bomber formation.
Anton Hackl´s FW 190 Langnase (Longnose, the nickname of the FW190 D types)
It was a different feeling from the operations of old. He received precise information on the allied attack force their, course, altitude, speed and command planes. The German-Japanese interceptors now were lying in wait, missiles "hot", with the sun to their backs. The first strike would come as a total surprise since it would be far earlier than usual. Anton had informed his pilots of the attack plan and all of them were waiting for the Americans to show up. When he recognised the approaching silhouettes, Anton´s thumb came to rest on the rocket fire button. "'Indians'* coming into range. We make pauke-pauke. Hals und Bein! Gute Jagd!"
The first wave of R4M rockets from the fighters were in flight.
*Indians=Indianer, German term for Bandits
- Location
- Hamburg, Germany
Again thanks to @mko95 for writing and @Darksoul2142 for editing.
It's almost certainly a matter of cost:benefit ratio. Even if they might be able to produce them, a modern missile is expensive, and will (most of the time) bring down only a single enemy aircraft, which might very well be cheaper than the missile expended to destroy it. Particularly once you figure in that each and every missile would have to be produced in Germany, then transported across the world to Japan.
By contrast, they could probably upgrade a fair number of Japanese AA guns with improved fire control systems for the same price as a single missile, but said AA guns would be able to keep shooting at (and ideally downing) enemy aircraft as long as they have ammunition, which can be produced locally in Japan. In fact, improved FCS for AA would help twice over; it would increase the economic strain on the US/UK (more aircraft getting shot down means more aircraft that need to be replaced, crews that need to be trained, etc), while decreasing the economic strain on Japan (higher accuracy for their AA guns means lower ammunition expenditures to down an enemy aircraft, more shot-down enemy aircraft means less damage to their cities which needs to be repaired, etc).
Same principle with things like advanced radar, upgraded aircraft, etc.
If you want to increase the efficiency of flak, introducing proximity fuses and better fire control is the way to go.
A centrally controlled, radar guided flak with proximity fuses would greatly reduce the number of shells one needs per downed airplane. Thus cutting down on the number of shells that need to be produced.
A centrally controlled, radar guided flak with proximity fuses would greatly reduce the number of shells one needs per downed airplane. Thus cutting down on the number of shells that need to be produced.
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- Location
- Asia
Will Roosevelt be getting a stroke afterward? I mean...the war in Europe has gone to hell, and soon there'll be reports of 109s and 190s flying over the Pacific.
- Location
- Hamburg, Germany
At first, the Germans did enhance the flak system not only of Germany, but also Japan. So they are indeed RADAR controlled and have proximity fuses. They are much more dangerous. Also Germany is developing upgraded DT SAMs like Wasserfall and Enzian.
But it's true to look for the numbers of a missile needed, costs and the use of it. An IRIS-T missile costed about 380.000 € in 2013. A Meteor missile even 900.000 €. Attacking a bomber with a missile is justifiable, as such a bomber can do much more damage. And costs about 3,5 million $ as of today's money. A P-51 about 570.000 $ as of 2018 (all data from Wiki). So you can use an Iris-T, but normally no Meteor.
As for DT equipment one estimated to fire flak shells worth 100.000 RM to down a single enemy plane. That are about 410.000 € as of today (1937 RM). As for missiles one estimated for the C-2 Wasserfall costs of 15.000 RM per hit (10.000 RM per missile). That are about 65.000 €. A MIM 23 Hawk costs 250.000 $, a MIM-104 Patriot even up to 3 million €.
So you need to have modern weapons, but they must be supplemented by upgraded DT systems, as it would be too costly to use only UT equipment. Even if it was possible to build them in necessary numbers.
But it's true to look for the numbers of a missile needed, costs and the use of it. An IRIS-T missile costed about 380.000 € in 2013. A Meteor missile even 900.000 €. Attacking a bomber with a missile is justifiable, as such a bomber can do much more damage. And costs about 3,5 million $ as of today's money. A P-51 about 570.000 $ as of 2018 (all data from Wiki). So you can use an Iris-T, but normally no Meteor.
As for DT equipment one estimated to fire flak shells worth 100.000 RM to down a single enemy plane. That are about 410.000 € as of today (1937 RM). As for missiles one estimated for the C-2 Wasserfall costs of 15.000 RM per hit (10.000 RM per missile). That are about 65.000 €. A MIM 23 Hawk costs 250.000 $, a MIM-104 Patriot even up to 3 million €.
So you need to have modern weapons, but they must be supplemented by upgraded DT systems, as it would be too costly to use only UT equipment. Even if it was possible to build them in necessary numbers.
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