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Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)

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Secretariat said:
Won't help - manpower's the bottleneck here
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Then subcontract most of the making to the Peuketii and the Messapii and Egnatia and the Epulian League.

bryanfran36 said:
Gods save me from overenthusiastic psillois!

Let us get our house and city in order by appeasing the gods in building the Divine Hill and watch put for those Dauni barbaroi before we do some of that kingmaking business!

And I have an idea what to do with this booty I got!

- Iskandar Xanatos
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By subcontracting the production to the Peuketii, Messapii, Egnatia and the Epulian League cities, we can do the Dauni, make the Divine Hill and sell javelins by the thousands all at the same time.
 
kilopi505 said:
That's why I proposed the quantity route.

How about the chance to help determine who wins the Pelopponesian war? You passing that up?

Here's my thinking. Suppose a psiloi as a standard carries 3 javelins. So if we export 10,000 javelins, that is 3300 + extra psiloi on the field for whoever we sold the javelins to. 20,000 javelins would be 6600 + psiloi.

That's not worth it? The chance to play king maker?
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Making ten thousand javelins is a lot easier than making 3300 skirmishers to carry them all, as 3300 mothers can attest.

Part of the reason psilloi carry slings, stones, and javelins is because those weapons are really cheap. They are easy to make in great quantity, so a poor man can afford them. Conversely, weapons so cheap a poor man can afford them are also easy to manufacture locally.

This is an important general pattern. Things that are generally available, such as dung, pointy sticks, fish near the ocean, and random hunks of rock are not worth exporting, because they will be conveniently available in quantity anywhere you go. Export commodities must be rare, or of such surpassing value that they are sometimes in demand far beyond what can be produced.

The latter category includes grain, which grows anywhere but sometimes has a bad season and which is in high demand during (for instance) a siege.

The former category includes rare natural resources (plentiful salt, amber, spices, Eretria's sea silk, fine timber for building large structures, and metals such as copper, lead, and especially tin...), and rare manufactured goods, things that are made only by highly skilled individuals in specific places (jewelry, fine weaponry and armor, certain kinds of wine and olive oil and so on...).
 
kilopi505 said:
Then subcontract most of the making to the Peuketii and the Messapii and Egnatia and the Epulian League.


By subcontracting the production to the Peuketii, Messapii, Egnatia and the Epulian League cities, we can do the Dauni, make the Divine Hill and sell javelins by the thousands all at the same time.
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No one will buy them kilo. Anyone can make javelins they are dirt cheap.

The basis of supply and demand. You want us to make a shitton of stuff for which there is no demand. Because everyone can already make their own javelin. They have no need to trade for it.
 
kilopi505 said:
How about the chance to help determine who wins the Pelopponesian war? You passing that up?

Here's my thinking. Suppose a psiloi as a standard carries 3 javelins. So if we export 10,000 javelins, that is 3300 + extra psiloi on the field for whoever we sold the javelins to. 20,000 javelins would be 6600 + psiloi.

That's not worth it? The chance to play king maker?
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Kilo. Javelins from Eretria are utterly irrelevant to the outcome of the Pelopponesian war.

Sparta and Athens control massive leagues and have massive weapons making capabilities to match.

What decided the war otl cannot be affected by javelins. The deciding factors were a plague that made Athens desperate which made them launch two massively risky military expedition that ended with them losing their entire fucking fleet. Twice.

Sparta did not win the war so much as Athens lost it via a combination of desperation and hubris.
 
Hermesdora, you of all people should know that the javelin is nothing compared to the arm that throws it. Your skill is what makes you valuable as a psilloi, not the stick.

People are not going to buy sticks and stones from us.
 
Half the appeal of spears and spear like weapons is that it takes very little effort and skill to produce them in good enough quantities and good enough quality.

Anything outside high end equipment, IE, luxury goods for the wealthy elite, is easily available locally, and so highly unlikely to generate profits if exported. Redundant.


@Cetashwayo , throughout the medieval period, certain cities and regions did get a reputation for exporting large quantities of good enough quality armaments. (the bulk of unearthed war of the roses armaments comes from a small part of the rhine region)

The existence of a wealthy aristocracy in constant need of arming its levy's and free companies(or officials and slave armies in the near east) , and abundant supply of raw resources played a massive role in such phenomenon.

I assume that due to the citizen militia nature of Greek warfare, such developments are unlikely to occur, but were there examples of large scale hellenic armaments production before the diadochi?

Also how did mercenaries arm and maintain themselves in this place and time?
Where they dependants of a wealthy benefactor who arms and pays them? Are they a militia for rent? Bandits for hire?

Also, as every household had to provide its own equipment, how much of it was cottage and how much was dedicated artisans?
Specifically, where spears/javelians and heavy tunics made in whole by artisans, in part (be it production or assembly) , or just home made?

Lastly, did Greek polis of the time restrict commerce and new production that competes with current produce? how extensive was protectionism and what form did it typically take?
 
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Godwinson said:
Requires better overland and shipping infrastructure, cheap and readily supplied sawmills to provide the sawdust to insulate, and requires better ships for hauling sufficient cargoes as well as shiphandling for being able to sail faster to reduce losses from melt.

Seriously, this "pluck random anachronisms to try to force-insert an advantage into the quest" is really annoying, why do people insist on doing this? I'm not just meaning you, kilopi505, you're far from the first person even in the past week to do this.
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Excuse me.

Bacon is not a random anachronism to try to force-insert an advantage into the quest.

It's however, absolutely haraam.

Cetashwayo said:
The arms trade as an international moneymaker is a phenomenon that emerged in the early modern period due to the technical requirements and military need for musket weapons. There were certainly luxury weapons being traded back and forth, but this would be part of a larger trade in finished metal goods, not a mass manufactured weapons industry. And besides, the premier metalworkers of the period are the Etruscans and the Gauls, not you.
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Okay, but seriously about the bacon idea? Or beef jerky? Too much of an anachronism or did the Ancient Greeks have equivalents? Because my mind is on unique foods for Etretria cultural growth...

Been looking at articles like this for ideas and modern-day comparisons.
 
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High-quality hams were very much a thing by the Roman period at the latest, but IIRC that was more a northern Italy product.

Really I feel that our next major effort after settling the Dauni situation (and getting a cut of the saltworks on Lake Salpi) should be in Illyria. Which admittedly is a bit frustrating to make specific plans about because it seems like there's very little evidence about what was produced where, at least along the coast. There does seem to have been a substantial amount of gold, silver, and iron mining further inland, but the places where we know for sure it went on were all either well into or on the other side of the Dinaric Alps and thus not really viable to get to without a degree of road-building we have neither the manpower or money for. About the only thing I could find definitive evidence of was murex shellfish at Salona, though admittedly that itself is more than valuable enough to justify a trade outpost there and probably a naval station to do anti-piracy patrols along the coast.

The only place near the coast of the Adriatic I know for sure has metals, precious or otherwise, is the gold deposits up by Aquileia at the northern tip of the sea. Problem is that northern Italy is going to be full of migrating Gauls in the next decade or two, which isn't likely to have positive consequences for a distant trade port that would be making money from gold mining.
 
Are we allies with the Enetoi? Would they attempt to hire our help against the Celts when the Celtic migrations happen to them?
 
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A tribal migration of that scale isn't a thing we're equipped to deal with beyond being lucky that we're probably too far south for it to reach us. As is we may well have to fend off a swipe or two at Ankon, which is much closer to us and is also a member of the Epulian League rather than a group of barbaroi whose current primary export we're going to be sourcing locally by then.
 
Friends, while industry and artisanwork brings glory and silver to the coffers of our fair city, the recent war with Taras has opened my eyes on how valuable our horses are and their contributions along with their lesser cousins the donkey and the mule. I believe that its in the greater interest of the city to purchase and breed bigger and faster horses so that we can range further afield to to attack our enemies in an unexpected flank, to carry more provisions in case of our beasts of burden travelling in maintainous and rocky areas. I am also greatly interested in the barbaroi's beef trade and the wool from their sheeps. I see great potential in these livestock markets. Also dogs and weasels should not be discounted for such hunting animals can greatly help in tracking down lost animals and may be useful in times of war. And if these animals' leavings would further stench our beloved city, then i believe the profits from the animal trade would be enough to support the payment for slaves who would pick up their wastes.

So says I, Calyx the animal breeder

OOC: Do we use dogs to hunt? How about pigs and truffles?
 
Ze_Count said:
Also this thread reminded me I bought 25 feet of paracord for 99 cents at goodwill so im going to try my hand at making a shepherds sling.
Let's hope I dont break anything.
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Ze_Count said:
[X] Accept the peace.
My attempt at making a split pouch sling out of a single length of paracord did not go well.
Think its time to go back and try my hand at the basic pouch.
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My ODYSSEY Is complete
BEHOLD
Other then that part I accidentally tossed the cord into the fan and the small burn I gave myself it went super smooth.
She is not perfect and the weave is a little loose but shes mine and I love her.

Don't worry people I got some pretty high quality safety glasses.(Walmart clearance)
Tomorrow I shall sling!
 
Ze_Count said:
My ODYSSEY Is complete
BEHOLD
Other then that part I accidentally tossed the cord into the fan and the small burn I gave myself it went super smooth.
She is not perfect and the weave is a little loose but shes mine and I love her.

Don't worry people I got some pretty high quality safety glasses.(Walmart clearance)
Tomorrow I shall sling!
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You are taking instruction from slinging.org on how to make slings, right? Those folks are the experts.

Also, remember to sling very far away from any houses. Treat the sling as if it is a gun because of its range.
 
We have one available trade channel, and the potential to export either salt from Salapia or amber as part of the Baltic trade routes to the Mediterranean. Either would be far more valuable than arms so we should work toward that end.

In other matters it seems like the mythical founder of the Iapygians was called Iapyx, and at least one derivation of his lineage has him as the son of Daedalus. There were a few other derivations, including from Lycaon in Arcadia. A lineage stretching from Orion would not altogether be implausible, and maintains a persistent Iapygian claim to ancient Greek ties. This may be useful.

We need to settle the affairs of the Messapii next turn, but I'm sure the update will focus heavily on that. One thing though I had a thought of was establishing a Sacred Grove dedicated to Artemis outside Ereitrea's walls, nearby the festival of tribute, with an altar and maybe other attendant structures as appropriate. The Peuketti and Messapii, plus even friendly Dauni, could be allowed and invited to make sacrifices there to establish a cult-center for Artemis and their own ancestor Orion.

Not sure mind if entirely in character to allow barbaroi to sacrifice in such a grove though it's still a good way to honor Artemis even if "Hellenes only."
 
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Trade wise...salt. All the (worthwhile) ideas use lots of salt.
Hams? Salt.
Fish? Salt.
Jerky? Salt.
Cheese? Salt.
Garum? Salt - Banished to the shadow realm.

Bring the salt, everything else will follow, because salt and salted food are low bulk, medium value, people will pick up or bring other stuff to trade. Thats where our Huge Metic Stacks can generate profit off handicrafts, pottery and metalwork.
 
Ironanvil1 said:
If you were looking for one anachronism to make the fortune of a large grain producing region in antiquity, it'd be distillation...
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On a side note, I'm genuinely interested what the traditional drinks of the Peuketii are like, and whether they have any regional specialties.

Thule said:
do any of our barbarian Subjects have any sheep? if so the we can get wool and start a clothes industry
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Our barbarian subjects have tons of sheep, and I believe there is still a yearly ritual where the Pueketii (or possibly Egnatia?) bring us a flock of sheep and we all get drunk and have kebabs. @Ironanvil1 would be able to say more.

One thing to keep in mind here though is that pretty much everyone makes their own clothing in this period, or will have clothing made by their servants/female family members, or may possibly see a professional clothing maker if they're exceptionally wealthy and want the finest and most ostentatious clothes - I don't know if this is a thing in Eretria. There isn't an economic advantage in shipping clothes right now; Too much bulk for high shipping costs, for a product that is either literally personally tailiored for the elites, making shipping pre-made clothes pointless, or far too expensive for the overwhelming number of people to want to buy considering they can make their own.

Another more general point to keep in mind with all these kind of "what if we did X" ideas is that our people aren't just sitting around waiting for something to do right now. There is a lot of labour that goes into running a primarily agricultural society of tenant farms, and all the basic supporting industries. So any new thing we do, to a certain extent, has to be traded off against the other things our people are doing, which means it needs to boost net productivity or be very valuable. We have a bigger reserve labour pool than most, but it is far from infinite.

So mostly, we're talking about small, iterative improvements on what we're already doing, that boost productivity in some way, rather than kick-starting new "industries". The exception is stuff like salt, which is so hilariously valuable that it's worthwhile.

Cavalier said:
We need to settle the affairs of the Messapii next turn, but I'm sure the update will focus heavily on that. One thing though I had a thought of was establishing a Sacred Grove dedicated to Artemis outside Ereitrea's walls, nearby the festival of tribute, with an altar and maybe other attendant structures as appropriate. The Peuketti and Messapii, plus even friendly Dauni, could be allowed and invited to make sacrifices there to establish a cult-center for Artemis and their own ancestor Orion.

Not sure mind if entirely in character to allow barbaroi to sacrifice in such a grove though it's still a good way to honor Artemis even if "Hellenes only."
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That would be really nice. We could even roll into the cattle-trading idea. If they're bring oxen to the city once a year it's a natural step...

Looking at it right now, the festival of Artemis in Athens was held on the 7th of the month of Thargelion, or around the ballpark of the 25th of May. If the timing of our Artemisal festival is similar, and she's a goddess of the hunt so you'd expect spring/summer, then that perfectly lines up with when the yearly cattle drive would be.

Bring your cattle outside the walls, do some trading, make sacrifice with your best bull (or second-best, if you're not quite as pious) at the sacred grove of Artemis. It's a pretty good system.
 
At the same time, shipping dyed textiles to be made into clothes is a thing that's done now, albeit only for dyes that aren't readily available everywhere and that aren't themselves easy to ship.

Like, for example, murex-based purple.

And if we can combine sea silk with purple dye, we take two already-lucrative commodities and make them into one of the highest-value luxury goods possible.
 
Absolutely, that's true, but shipping of cloth is quite a bit different to shipping clothing. The many different skills of cutting and sewing is what makes clothing is a whole industry in itself, one which is intensely local. All the actual cloth-making and finishing is done at the point of delivery, which it pretty much has to be, because the only people buying fine cloth to make clothes will expect intimately personal tailoring. The market for pre-made clothing is a huge one, knitting gets tedious when it is no longer a hobby; but it's very much a late 19th century/early 20th century thing, especially when mail-order catalogues become a thing*.

Similarly, the wool trade in England and the Low Countries was huge, and fortunes could be made and lost on the specific weight and style of wool you were trading, depending on varying fashions and preferences. Poor quality product was not an option, generally. But no one would think of selling pre-made clothes. Now, if you're making dye, as you say, often dyes are very difficult to ship or even store, as it is essentially primitive chemistry and they're often in water solution. In that case you have no choice but to dye at your end, and eat the cost of the shipping. This is also why dyed cloth was very much a luxury good.

Coming up with our own secret variety of dyed sea silk would be really cute, and actually not too ahistorical, lots of places had their "secret formula" for a certain kind of luxury good like that. But I'm not sure where we'd get the dye from; do we have murex right now?


*(Somone is now going to swoop in and refute me with a single example of pre-made clothing being sold in Edo-era Japan, or some shit like that.)
 
Droman said:
Okay, but seriously about the bacon idea? Or beef jerky? Too much of an anachronism or did the Ancient Greeks have equivalents? Because my mind is on unique foods for Etretria cultural growth...
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The example we'd probably know best is Lucanica - Wikipedia -- the sausage of the Lucani, rendered in Portuguese as linguiça and in Greek as loukaniko. Both of these are available at (some) supermarkets today.

More here: https://grbs.library.duke.edu/article/viewFile/2221/5949

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Admiral Skippy said:
That's true, but shipping of cloth is a lot different to shipping clothing. The many different skills of cutting and sewing is what makes clothing is a whole industry in itself, one which is intensely local. All the actual clothe-making and finishing is done at the point of delivery, which it pretty much has to be, because the only people buying fine cloth to make clothes will expect intimately personal tailoring. The market for pre-made clothing is a huge one, knitting gets terdious when it is no longer a hobby; but it's very much a late 19th century/early 20th century thing, especially when mail-order catalogues become a thing*.

Similarly, the wool trade in England and the Low Countries was huge, and fortunes could be made and lost on the specific weight and style of wool you were trading, depending on varying fashions and preferences. Poor quality product was not an option, generally. But no one would think of selling pre-made clothes. Now, if you're making dye, as you say, often dyes are very difficult to ship or even store, as it is essentially primitive chemistry and they're often in water solution. In that case you have no choice but to dye at your end, and eat the cost of the shipping. This is also why dyed cloth was very much a luxury good.

Coming up with our own secret variety of dyed sea silk would be really cute, and actually not too ahistorical, lots of places had their "secret formula" for a certain kind of luxury good like that. But I'm not sure where we'd get the dye from; do we have murex right now?


*(Somone is now going to swoop in and refute me with a single example of pre-made clothing being sold in Edo-era Japan, or some shit like that.)
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Ankon is known for its murex.
 
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Smoked and cured sausages just make an intense amount of sense, if you're in a Mediterranean climate.

Wondering how Eretrian cuisine has intermingled and gained from contact with the food cultures of the neighbouring barbaroi tribes is actually making me kind of fascinated. There may be a few "fusion" dishes already, and of course, probably some excellent local seafood since you're right on the Adriatic.

It's also making me hungry. :lol
 
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