Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
Well don't you worry because next turn you're going to start increasing your naval expenses by more than half
Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)
- Thread starter Cetashwayo
- Start date
- Original Alt. History
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- Tags
- ancient greece alternate history empire builder civ quest democracy gods save us granary management hubris it's an eretrian thing. let lose the weasels of war lithocracy lithocracy is my fetish maximum hellene my big fat greek divine wedding this granary aint gonna fill itself cetash unwinnable
Well don't you worry because next turn you're going to start increasing your naval expenses by more than half
Altered
Duality | Redeemed
- Location
- Terra
Alternatively, expand on trading routes and tariff efficiency.
If we would allow changing citizenship laws to allow one-parent citizenship then I would propose a metic's dowry in where half the wealth in drachma and talents goes to the citizen's family, one tenth goes to the city, and two tenths to the Sacred Treasury with a provision of being free of taxes for two years to recover in wealth. They might also be allowed to pay for the wedding in exchange of counting it as part of the dowry.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
The city doesn't really involve itself in taxing dowries because the administration required would be way beyond the city's capability. The property tax the city has now is already difficult to administer.
Maybe we should task that to the Grand Mantis and the priests of Ploutos to be the ones to assess the fees of dowries between Metics then.
Well don't you worry because next turn you're going to start increasing your naval expenses by more than half
More than half? We're basically doubling it! I honestly think it's only 7 talents a year short of double.
We really need to establish those new trade routes in a hurry. The only problem is that Rhegion has secure hegemonia for itself and that the Peuketti seem to be singed and smoking. The Antipatrids are likely to be invested in the former and the Exoria in the latter. The Drakonids are going to point out we need the trade and it's better to deal with Ankon now than for their neighbours to fight them.
Also, I think it's important to point out: Obander put the (failed) Antipatrid Probolous candidate as his Deputy. I wonder what Mnemnon thought of that and how it's affected their friendship. I think the Deputy system is almost certainly going to default to the Deputy falling within the same Deme as the Xenoparkletor.
- Location
- USA
Well the cost of grain to Kymai is going to fall off, the biggest expense is always the great project which in this case expands our trade capacity so that we can start earning more money. Part of the reason a lot of us pushed Drakonia domestic is that they had a lot of the revenue gains as part of their platform.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
There was really no way he was not going to do that. The demes are a patronage system and Mnemnon would have done the same; you need to develop successors and people you can trust to handle things after you're gone, and the Antipatrids don't really have a deep bench despite the fact that this is Obander's last term. Politics overrides personal relationships here.
- Location
- Central Europe
Well Obander choosing to play "party"-politics and selecting Kyros as his deputy over the better suited Mnemnon is disappointing, but was honestly not unexpected.
Next turn we are gonna get new income from ending the grain shipments to Kymai (+20) and Messapii tribute (~+12), but also gonna lose income to metic tax decrease (-14) and increased naval upkeep(-63.2), before a slight tax increase due to population growth.
Next turn we are gonna get new income from ending the grain shipments to Kymai (+20) and Messapii tribute (~+12), but also gonna lose income to metic tax decrease (-14) and increased naval upkeep(-63.2), before a slight tax increase due to population growth.
- Location
- USA
Next Xeno, for probolus we want the one sponsoring the sewer as the next great project
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Think of it as playing the long game; this method ensures that we are far less likely to need to drop a preferred diplomatic path because of a weak ambassador.
- Location
- Mists of Albion
Especially as the Deputy's job was to get ready to deal with the Messapi, which is one of Mnemnon's specialities.
Obander went surprisingly nepotistic here. Honestly didn't expect that from him of all people.
But it also ensures we might not get the best people for the job in needed position due to favouritism and politics
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Altered
Duality | Redeemed
- Location
- Terra
If you really wanted to discourage that, you could have just gone with the runner up - or had him select from opposite political party with the caveat that they were to legitimately select those useful. It while somewhat splintering does force the interactions of both sides.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
What's nepotistic about it? Kyros Gennadios isn't a relative, he's a former proboulos of the city who has served in foreign campaigns. You can say he doesn't have enough experience, but the entire position of deputy xenoparakletor is meant to help build experience.
Sure, he's not the optimal candidate, but if you really wanted cross-demos deputies to be guaranteed then you should have voted for Leander's amendment, not Phokion's
- Location
- Vicksburg, MS
Hahaha, nice, that'll show them to give our xenoparakletor the cold shoulder. Those grapes Rhegion plied Obander with don't seem so pricy now, do they? I am somewhat curious as to whether or not the war faction in Taras is apoplectic over the peace faction letting their former kinda-sorta ally get wrecked in exchange for Rhegion's trade concessions or if everyone's too distracted by riches to care much.
- Location
- Canada
- Pronouns
- Him/He
Well, I can't say I disagree with the QM take on Alkibiades here. He was brilliant in his own way, no question about it, but having him believe in pretty much nothing but himself does fit with his OTL actions. I did, however, once read a rather convincing argument that we tend to overestimate his capacities as a strategos, as all his victories happened while he had Thrasybulus at his side while Thrasybulus scored significant victories without Alkibiades in the vicinity. In any event, his talent as a politician and as a diplomat are undeniable, however.
Personally I see three possibilities for his next big move:
I) Trying something with the Lydian satrap son:
This isn't as absurd a move as it sound: Athens would fit close to home and she has a pretty solid track record against Persia, especially at sea. The ods of success of the move would be even greater if Athens had reason to believe Persia was about to have some of the internal troubles it tended to go through from time to time.
II) Going for the kill against Sparta:
Definitely a tantalising possibility as, depending which version of the battle you believe, Sparta might have come close to disaster at Mantinea to OTL. ITTL Corinth is actually allied with Korinthos now, making a potential corinthian participation to the anti-Spartan coalition not completely impossible, even if the reasoning behind it remain a bit fuzzy to me. Moreover, they're is always the possibility Alkibiades will manage to get Athens to intervene in force, with closer to the 10 000 hoplites then it fielded at Platea then a mere 1 000 it send to Mantinea in OTL, on the rebels side.
III) Reconquer Chalcidike:
Loosing the area was the one truly significant downside, in the mid to long-run, in what generally was a pretty solid performance by Athens ITTL (the plague was more a question of luck then military operation and Delium was mainly significant in that it prevented Athens from knocking Thebes out of the war rather then in any actual looses taken). The present situation give Athens a rather free hand to retake it and it would definitely be a usefull step for them in prevision of a resumption of hostilities. On a meta POV, however, I tend to believe Alkiabiades is thinking of something more grandiose.
Closer to home, I must say I am among those disapointed by Obander. Yes, it isn't that surprising he will seek to give Gennadios some experience before he retire so his probable successor as leader of the Antipatrids could better step up in the future but his actions are going against his own tendency to put city before party in the past and to work with other demes for Eretria's benefit. Moreover, his take on the geopolitical situation in Hellas is both rather debatable, after all it was Sparta who first wasn't able to fulfill her commitments under the treaty, and rather worrisome considering he is supposed to lead an embassy to the city soon.
As to the situation in Italy, I must admit I am not too unpleased with Rhegion rise here, and feel I made the right call when I advocated allying with instead of Krotone, since they could be very usefull indeed when/if things come to a head with Corinth. Basically, Corinth trade network use to extend as far as Massalia, with the city dominating much of trade Hellas had with the central and western medditerannean. Basically, Eretria is simply not positioned to take over the western part of that trade network, and therefore they're is a clear danger that as soon Corinth is back at peace and able to try to get her old maritime power back, which will inevitably happen at some point unless it suffer truly cataclismic defeat, she will able to simply reoccupy those portion of her trade network and use it fuell an attempt at a comeback in the Adriatic. Rhegion, however, is well placed to potentially dislodge them in those areas, which would both help truly complete the decline of Corinthian sea and economic power and potentially provide us with a good ally to support us if Corinth attempt to use force to reverse said decline.
Now, the sheer scale of Rhegion victory against Lokri did destabilise Italy to a sigificant extant. More and more, the area seem to divide itself among the big three or four (Eretria, Rhegion, Taras and possibly Thurii) and the rest, with former group growing far faster. What will come out of the upcoming diplomatic alignement remain to be seen but they're will be one and while I'd expect the Drakonids to carry the election for Xenopralector to deal with the finance and not push our luck with the Picentines I would favour an eventual Antipatrid motion to get ourselves involves in any negociations that might be ongoing. If they're is gonna be an italian league I would rather have us be in then out.
Talking about finance, our situation isn't actually that horrible. The metic taxes and the rower cost us about 77 talents. As has already been said we get 32 back out of the Messapii and not having to pay for Kimai grain anymore. Between Kimai Adriatica soon paying tributes alongside our, and our league allies, population growth we probably get about another 20 talents. Finally, the work on Bysossi harbour has been stated to give us another two staple routes, just by allowing us to accomodate more trade, worth about another 11 talents. That leave us only down by 14 talents and if we get lucky the metic policy of Linos is gonna give another staple route yet, potentially leaving us only down by 9 talents.
Personally I see three possibilities for his next big move:
I) Trying something with the Lydian satrap son:
This isn't as absurd a move as it sound: Athens would fit close to home and she has a pretty solid track record against Persia, especially at sea. The ods of success of the move would be even greater if Athens had reason to believe Persia was about to have some of the internal troubles it tended to go through from time to time.
II) Going for the kill against Sparta:
Definitely a tantalising possibility as, depending which version of the battle you believe, Sparta might have come close to disaster at Mantinea to OTL. ITTL Corinth is actually allied with Korinthos now, making a potential corinthian participation to the anti-Spartan coalition not completely impossible, even if the reasoning behind it remain a bit fuzzy to me. Moreover, they're is always the possibility Alkibiades will manage to get Athens to intervene in force, with closer to the 10 000 hoplites then it fielded at Platea then a mere 1 000 it send to Mantinea in OTL, on the rebels side.
III) Reconquer Chalcidike:
Loosing the area was the one truly significant downside, in the mid to long-run, in what generally was a pretty solid performance by Athens ITTL (the plague was more a question of luck then military operation and Delium was mainly significant in that it prevented Athens from knocking Thebes out of the war rather then in any actual looses taken). The present situation give Athens a rather free hand to retake it and it would definitely be a usefull step for them in prevision of a resumption of hostilities. On a meta POV, however, I tend to believe Alkiabiades is thinking of something more grandiose.
Closer to home, I must say I am among those disapointed by Obander. Yes, it isn't that surprising he will seek to give Gennadios some experience before he retire so his probable successor as leader of the Antipatrids could better step up in the future but his actions are going against his own tendency to put city before party in the past and to work with other demes for Eretria's benefit. Moreover, his take on the geopolitical situation in Hellas is both rather debatable, after all it was Sparta who first wasn't able to fulfill her commitments under the treaty, and rather worrisome considering he is supposed to lead an embassy to the city soon.
As to the situation in Italy, I must admit I am not too unpleased with Rhegion rise here, and feel I made the right call when I advocated allying with instead of Krotone, since they could be very usefull indeed when/if things come to a head with Corinth. Basically, Corinth trade network use to extend as far as Massalia, with the city dominating much of trade Hellas had with the central and western medditerannean. Basically, Eretria is simply not positioned to take over the western part of that trade network, and therefore they're is a clear danger that as soon Corinth is back at peace and able to try to get her old maritime power back, which will inevitably happen at some point unless it suffer truly cataclismic defeat, she will able to simply reoccupy those portion of her trade network and use it fuell an attempt at a comeback in the Adriatic. Rhegion, however, is well placed to potentially dislodge them in those areas, which would both help truly complete the decline of Corinthian sea and economic power and potentially provide us with a good ally to support us if Corinth attempt to use force to reverse said decline.
Now, the sheer scale of Rhegion victory against Lokri did destabilise Italy to a sigificant extant. More and more, the area seem to divide itself among the big three or four (Eretria, Rhegion, Taras and possibly Thurii) and the rest, with former group growing far faster. What will come out of the upcoming diplomatic alignement remain to be seen but they're will be one and while I'd expect the Drakonids to carry the election for Xenopralector to deal with the finance and not push our luck with the Picentines I would favour an eventual Antipatrid motion to get ourselves involves in any negociations that might be ongoing. If they're is gonna be an italian league I would rather have us be in then out.
Talking about finance, our situation isn't actually that horrible. The metic taxes and the rower cost us about 77 talents. As has already been said we get 32 back out of the Messapii and not having to pay for Kimai grain anymore. Between Kimai Adriatica soon paying tributes alongside our, and our league allies, population growth we probably get about another 20 talents. Finally, the work on Bysossi harbour has been stated to give us another two staple routes, just by allowing us to accomodate more trade, worth about another 11 talents. That leave us only down by 14 talents and if we get lucky the metic policy of Linos is gonna give another staple route yet, potentially leaving us only down by 9 talents.
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Sure, he's not the optimal candidate, but if you really wanted cross-demos deputies to be guaranteed then you should have voted for Leander's amendment, not Phokion's
Eh. I still think it's the right decision to try to gently shift the culture of the Demes before forcing them to change.
I am very OK with this.
fasquardon
- Location
- Central Europe
With regards to taxes and tribute:
Kymai will give us 6.9 Talents, but the effects of population growth will be weaker this census. For one, our chosen immigration policy will bring in less people than the ones before. Furthermore, the 10% in Metic tax also applies to new immigrants. I expect population growth (both domestic and abroad) to provide less than 10 Talents, probably closer to 5.
With regard to trade:
At current trade efficiency the two staple trade routes will give us 15.9 Talents. Also the Metic policy of Demos Drakonia even has the chance to produce a Luxury trade route, that would be an additional 13.3 talents. I have some hope that the sculptors from Kymai are that trade route, however they could also be the famed artwork.
- Location
- Vicksburg, MS
Hmm, taking stock of the situation...
If the rumors are true, there is a burgeoning coalition against Sparta with Elis, Mantinea, and Argos, which just the prior year has allied with Korinthos. We know additionally that Megara is quite cross with Sparta, as is Thebes, both having suffered terribly in the war only to not be included in Sparta's attempted settlement. So this would appear to simultaneously present most of the northern Peloponnesian League as potential enemies to Sparta, and the allies/underlings it might have called upon to open up a front with them to the north are unhappy and unimpressed with Sparta, even if they weren't otherwise occupied with Athens. Apparently some driving factors for the Argives and Elians to go against Sparta in our time included the desire of the former to control Epidauros (note it as part of the area labeled 'Argolis' on the map) among other neighboring minor cities and the latter getting upset at Sparta trying to assert dominance over contested Lepreon. Those would then probably be the areas in which those states would push their luck; as I understand it, Mantinea also had some disputes ongoing with Tegea.
Tegea seems pretty critical, nestled as it is on an effective pass between mountains and acting as a sort of gate. With it in hand, Sparta can threaten two out of the three centers of the alleged coalition against it with ease; however, if the Argives and co. take it, they have direct paths to link up with Elis as well as to march on an unwalled Sparta available. Expect some decisive battle(s) to take place in that area between Mantinea, Tegea and Argos, as happened in our history. I don't know if it might be better from an Athenian perspective to join in or to stay out of it and cause trouble elsewhere; on the one hand one would want to tip whatever battle that would occur there in favor of ruining the Spartans. On the other hand, if the Spartans are forced to concentrate so far inland right near the center of the Peloponnese then the Athenians could easily take advantage of their absence to expand their toehold in Messenia and cause some nasty damage by liberating a bunch of helots, threatening the cornerstone of their society- though, that could just as easily make entities like Elis far more hostile to Athens.
It seems pretty clear that the peace between Athens and Sparta is going to fall to pieces. Sparta didn't actually get its goal of dissolving the Delian League, got absolutely embarassed at Pylos and peaced out separately, so it looks pretty weak and cowardly to its league- not a reputation it can have if it wants to stay hegemon. Athens is actively working against their peace treaty off of the excuse that it can hold onto Pylos since the Spartans couldn't convince Amphipolis to turn themselves over, no doubt in part because they're seeing the Peloponnesian League fraying apart and turning against itself in addition to the advantages of securing Eretrian grain and having the ability to stick a thumb in Sparta's eye via influence among the Messenians.
The Lydian issue could go either way. On the one hand, an opportunistic Persia seizing on the matter could be quite disastrous for the Greek colonies in Asia, or provide the chance for the king of kings to put his thumb in the pie by funding the underdog. However, isn't part of the reason that the Delian League started revolting so much due to that it got converted away from being an anti-Persian alliance to a vehicle for Athenian empire? Dunking on a weakened Sparta (or worse, failing to do so) isn't the sort of prestigious cause that opposing the largest empire in the world is. At least in Eretria it would probably help our relations a lot if Athens got distracted from local expansion and integration by being forced to strive against the folks probably considered as an ancestral foe at this point by Eretrians... at least, provided that Korinthos didn't take advantage of the opportunity to finally pay us a visit, though I'd think that they're be more prone to try to settle accounts with Korkyra first due to the geography and importance of it in controlling trade. Probably on the whole this is going to lead to some trouble, however much I try to convince myself that perhaps it is fine.
I'm quite pleased with the Rhegion situation. The vaguely hostile Lokri Epixephyrii that was friendly to Syrakousai has been humbled and brought to the verge of irrelevance, our friend Rhegion is strengthened substantially in large part due to the assistance we have provided it and this display of competence might encourage the Sikeliote League to leave it be... plus, the former vassals will now have more funds available to develop themselves into something formidable, should the ruler of Rhegion keep their promise well. The snag is of course that this will embolden a frightened Krotone that sees itself falling behind to get more onboard of that Inaros' idea for an Italiote League of Akhaian cities such as Sybaris on the Traeis and Kaulonia. While I would actually rather welcome some consolidation among the looser cities (I imagine that that chief who conquered Poseidonia in the night might have been a bit more cautious if he thought his action could wind up with him in war with the all the local Greek cities like Hyele and Pyxos rather than just the one that would be a non-issue if he triumphed anyway), it is also the case that Krotone has terrible relations with Thurii despite our sharing an alliance with both of them. After all, Krotone would likely have moved against Lokri Epixephyrii themselves had Thurii not been hungrily watching them from the north; Sybaris on the Traeis is the natural next stop for expansion for Thurii, after all, being a weak single city with good land, a coast and a road rather than a barbarian waste that they need to gradually shove out the pastoral Bruttii from to claim. If it came to blows I'd rather side with Rhegion and Thurii versus Krotone rather than the other way around, but I don't like the idea of war heating up in an area right next to some rather dangerous barbaroi who have in living memory robbed away the lands of a whole people, the Oenotrians. We're going to have to come up with some way to divert their ire against the barbaroi rather than each other.
Also, fun note: it seems that while a lot of Greek polities on Sicily made out like bandits in the aftermath of the war with the Sikels, Kale Akte actually shrunk following the foundation of Halaesa which chips away at the hinterland they'd previously enjoyed. I'm actually rather surprised too that the Sikels held onto the vicinity of Abacaenum; I'd have thought that in Rhegion's absence in war participation would have made more sense for the Sikeliote League to assert control over the city on its own, compared to some of the steep mountains they ended up occupying.
Kymai is dead, long live Kymai. The Etruscans seem to have gotten a bit of a redo, Atria and Spina are now both independent rather than just Spina. The Peuketti are probably getting mad over some grazing/pastureland versus their now traditional agriculture which they would have to learn from the ground up, probably it's not actually as effective as feeding them is.
Good to hear that the harbor is developing nicely.
If the rumors are true, there is a burgeoning coalition against Sparta with Elis, Mantinea, and Argos, which just the prior year has allied with Korinthos. We know additionally that Megara is quite cross with Sparta, as is Thebes, both having suffered terribly in the war only to not be included in Sparta's attempted settlement. So this would appear to simultaneously present most of the northern Peloponnesian League as potential enemies to Sparta, and the allies/underlings it might have called upon to open up a front with them to the north are unhappy and unimpressed with Sparta, even if they weren't otherwise occupied with Athens. Apparently some driving factors for the Argives and Elians to go against Sparta in our time included the desire of the former to control Epidauros (note it as part of the area labeled 'Argolis' on the map) among other neighboring minor cities and the latter getting upset at Sparta trying to assert dominance over contested Lepreon. Those would then probably be the areas in which those states would push their luck; as I understand it, Mantinea also had some disputes ongoing with Tegea.
Tegea seems pretty critical, nestled as it is on an effective pass between mountains and acting as a sort of gate. With it in hand, Sparta can threaten two out of the three centers of the alleged coalition against it with ease; however, if the Argives and co. take it, they have direct paths to link up with Elis as well as to march on an unwalled Sparta available. Expect some decisive battle(s) to take place in that area between Mantinea, Tegea and Argos, as happened in our history. I don't know if it might be better from an Athenian perspective to join in or to stay out of it and cause trouble elsewhere; on the one hand one would want to tip whatever battle that would occur there in favor of ruining the Spartans. On the other hand, if the Spartans are forced to concentrate so far inland right near the center of the Peloponnese then the Athenians could easily take advantage of their absence to expand their toehold in Messenia and cause some nasty damage by liberating a bunch of helots, threatening the cornerstone of their society- though, that could just as easily make entities like Elis far more hostile to Athens.
It seems pretty clear that the peace between Athens and Sparta is going to fall to pieces. Sparta didn't actually get its goal of dissolving the Delian League, got absolutely embarassed at Pylos and peaced out separately, so it looks pretty weak and cowardly to its league- not a reputation it can have if it wants to stay hegemon. Athens is actively working against their peace treaty off of the excuse that it can hold onto Pylos since the Spartans couldn't convince Amphipolis to turn themselves over, no doubt in part because they're seeing the Peloponnesian League fraying apart and turning against itself in addition to the advantages of securing Eretrian grain and having the ability to stick a thumb in Sparta's eye via influence among the Messenians.
The Lydian issue could go either way. On the one hand, an opportunistic Persia seizing on the matter could be quite disastrous for the Greek colonies in Asia, or provide the chance for the king of kings to put his thumb in the pie by funding the underdog. However, isn't part of the reason that the Delian League started revolting so much due to that it got converted away from being an anti-Persian alliance to a vehicle for Athenian empire? Dunking on a weakened Sparta (or worse, failing to do so) isn't the sort of prestigious cause that opposing the largest empire in the world is. At least in Eretria it would probably help our relations a lot if Athens got distracted from local expansion and integration by being forced to strive against the folks probably considered as an ancestral foe at this point by Eretrians... at least, provided that Korinthos didn't take advantage of the opportunity to finally pay us a visit, though I'd think that they're be more prone to try to settle accounts with Korkyra first due to the geography and importance of it in controlling trade. Probably on the whole this is going to lead to some trouble, however much I try to convince myself that perhaps it is fine.
I'm quite pleased with the Rhegion situation. The vaguely hostile Lokri Epixephyrii that was friendly to Syrakousai has been humbled and brought to the verge of irrelevance, our friend Rhegion is strengthened substantially in large part due to the assistance we have provided it and this display of competence might encourage the Sikeliote League to leave it be... plus, the former vassals will now have more funds available to develop themselves into something formidable, should the ruler of Rhegion keep their promise well. The snag is of course that this will embolden a frightened Krotone that sees itself falling behind to get more onboard of that Inaros' idea for an Italiote League of Akhaian cities such as Sybaris on the Traeis and Kaulonia. While I would actually rather welcome some consolidation among the looser cities (I imagine that that chief who conquered Poseidonia in the night might have been a bit more cautious if he thought his action could wind up with him in war with the all the local Greek cities like Hyele and Pyxos rather than just the one that would be a non-issue if he triumphed anyway), it is also the case that Krotone has terrible relations with Thurii despite our sharing an alliance with both of them. After all, Krotone would likely have moved against Lokri Epixephyrii themselves had Thurii not been hungrily watching them from the north; Sybaris on the Traeis is the natural next stop for expansion for Thurii, after all, being a weak single city with good land, a coast and a road rather than a barbarian waste that they need to gradually shove out the pastoral Bruttii from to claim. If it came to blows I'd rather side with Rhegion and Thurii versus Krotone rather than the other way around, but I don't like the idea of war heating up in an area right next to some rather dangerous barbaroi who have in living memory robbed away the lands of a whole people, the Oenotrians. We're going to have to come up with some way to divert their ire against the barbaroi rather than each other.
Also, fun note: it seems that while a lot of Greek polities on Sicily made out like bandits in the aftermath of the war with the Sikels, Kale Akte actually shrunk following the foundation of Halaesa which chips away at the hinterland they'd previously enjoyed. I'm actually rather surprised too that the Sikels held onto the vicinity of Abacaenum; I'd have thought that in Rhegion's absence in war participation would have made more sense for the Sikeliote League to assert control over the city on its own, compared to some of the steep mountains they ended up occupying.
Kymai is dead, long live Kymai. The Etruscans seem to have gotten a bit of a redo, Atria and Spina are now both independent rather than just Spina. The Peuketti are probably getting mad over some grazing/pastureland versus their now traditional agriculture which they would have to learn from the ground up, probably it's not actually as effective as feeding them is.
Good to hear that the harbor is developing nicely.
- Location
- Central Europe
@Cetashwayo I noticed that you moved Terina and I have to say this location makes much more sense. In the first thread I always wondered how Krotone could found Terina "behind" Temesa, after having just lost the latter to Lokri. In retrospect the new spot for Terina also explains the followup war over these to cities, since it threatens Lokris connection to Temesa.
That said, I was wondering what's the story behind Krotone losing control of Terina after we explicitly left it to them?
That said, I was wondering what's the story behind Krotone losing control of Terina after we explicitly left it to them?
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Wow, I had read the last two quests with interest back in... April I think. Just before this iteration started up anyway. So I am excited about the the chance to join in on this one. Though it was a lot to take in, and I might have forgotten some of the events with everything that happened. I'm also not entirely sure how the whole participation works, so please feel free to correct me if I make a mistake.
Some of my thoughts:
This was actually one of my thoughts, which is that one of the issues that is always important for the Xenoparakletor to develop and improve relations with our barbaroi tributaries and allies. Yet with the defeat of Taras and the subjugation of the Messapii it's not as strongly attached our other diplomatic efforts. Furthermore we always say that we are aiding the barbaroi to become more civilized, but what meaningful actions have we done to accomplish this? When the discussion of creating deputies to the Xenoparakletor came up, perhaps it was a missed opportunity to create a smaller sub-office with more specific roles.
My thought is that we ought to have a deputy of the Xenoparakletor who is specifically charged with relations with the Barbarosi tributaries. The role would not only be about touring the tributaries and maintaining knowledge of what is going on in their lands and among their people, but also to deliberately encourage Hellenization of them. This would include things such as sponsoring plays and festivals among them encouraging a Hellenistic interpretation of the Gods and history; establishing the teaching of Greek among their young (and also our weights, measures, calendar, Eretrian laws and customs, etc); and instructing them in our methods of agriculture. This would increase their wealth and prosperity, as well as tie them ever more to Eretria as their mother city. This official would also be able to report to Eretria on any grievances our tributaries have prior to them becoming a true conflict. Perhaps with a budget of half the tribute? (Including the salary of the new official).
The other new official we might want would be a deputy Xenoparakletor who is specifically charged with relations with the Euplian league. As we have granted more power to them, I think we ought to keep a better eye on their feeling and thoughts so that we can avoid any build up of resentment and ensure that they remain a strength of Eretria and not a burden. Let's avoid the mistakes of Athens with the Delian league.
Could we perhaps support an Italian league (de facto led by Krotone) while also pushing for an agreement between them and Thuril to attack the Bruttii? Besides the threat of the other Greek cities, is not the threat of the barbaroi one of the bigger ones facing the smaller independent cities? And yet Thuril will benefit the most from an attack on the Bruttii, enabling them to expand into that territory? It would be a way to harness the Korotone as an ally to Thruil expansion instead of expanding by fighting each other.
My two thoughts are first that we should try to make sure that Athens does not get in that Sicilian expedition again (or worse case, if they do, make sure that the Ionian Sicilians win, perhaps mitigating their dependence on Athens and the resulting threat to Sparta by having them lean on us instead of Athens). The second is that we ought to strongly oppose the involvement of Persia, to the extent of actively trying to negotiate a peace if we can to avoid bringing in the Persians. Considering our history I think we have a reasonable hatred of Persia, and a desire to make sure that the conflict between Sparta and Athens does not give Persia an opening to attack Greece.
Some of my thoughts:
This was actually one of my thoughts, which is that one of the issues that is always important for the Xenoparakletor to develop and improve relations with our barbaroi tributaries and allies. Yet with the defeat of Taras and the subjugation of the Messapii it's not as strongly attached our other diplomatic efforts. Furthermore we always say that we are aiding the barbaroi to become more civilized, but what meaningful actions have we done to accomplish this? When the discussion of creating deputies to the Xenoparakletor came up, perhaps it was a missed opportunity to create a smaller sub-office with more specific roles.
My thought is that we ought to have a deputy of the Xenoparakletor who is specifically charged with relations with the Barbarosi tributaries. The role would not only be about touring the tributaries and maintaining knowledge of what is going on in their lands and among their people, but also to deliberately encourage Hellenization of them. This would include things such as sponsoring plays and festivals among them encouraging a Hellenistic interpretation of the Gods and history; establishing the teaching of Greek among their young (and also our weights, measures, calendar, Eretrian laws and customs, etc); and instructing them in our methods of agriculture. This would increase their wealth and prosperity, as well as tie them ever more to Eretria as their mother city. This official would also be able to report to Eretria on any grievances our tributaries have prior to them becoming a true conflict. Perhaps with a budget of half the tribute? (Including the salary of the new official).
The other new official we might want would be a deputy Xenoparakletor who is specifically charged with relations with the Euplian league. As we have granted more power to them, I think we ought to keep a better eye on their feeling and thoughts so that we can avoid any build up of resentment and ensure that they remain a strength of Eretria and not a burden. Let's avoid the mistakes of Athens with the Delian league.
Could we perhaps support an Italian league (de facto led by Krotone) while also pushing for an agreement between them and Thuril to attack the Bruttii? Besides the threat of the other Greek cities, is not the threat of the barbaroi one of the bigger ones facing the smaller independent cities? And yet Thuril will benefit the most from an attack on the Bruttii, enabling them to expand into that territory? It would be a way to harness the Korotone as an ally to Thruil expansion instead of expanding by fighting each other.
My two thoughts are first that we should try to make sure that Athens does not get in that Sicilian expedition again (or worse case, if they do, make sure that the Ionian Sicilians win, perhaps mitigating their dependence on Athens and the resulting threat to Sparta by having them lean on us instead of Athens). The second is that we ought to strongly oppose the involvement of Persia, to the extent of actively trying to negotiate a peace if we can to avoid bringing in the Persians. Considering our history I think we have a reasonable hatred of Persia, and a desire to make sure that the conflict between Sparta and Athens does not give Persia an opening to attack Greece.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
The war party has re-oriented. The victories of the peace party means that the old playbook is no longer holding up, and since a war against the Messapii now means war against Eretria, their raison d'etre has been disposed of.
Peter Green made the argument that Alkibiades' greatest skill was self-promotion. Every source we have of him tends to be somewhat fawning, but all were exposed to his own arguments and narrative; for example, Thucydides interviewed him. But how much does that align with the actual Alkibiades? If we think about it his accomplishments are hardly impressive, and he's plagued by a sense of taking good ideas and either not following through on them or relying on others to carry them out. The Quadruple Alliance would have been far more capable of taking down Sparta if Alkibiades had committed more to it rather than having a reflexive and youthful demand to go to war with Sparta.
This is historical, but keep in mind that being allied with Argos is not the same thing as being allied with Athenai. Korinthos didn't participate in the OTL coalition but they also didn't oppose it.
According to Thucydides, Mantinea used the opportunity of Spartan distraction during the first phase of the war to carve out more power and territory for itself in Arkadia and joined the alliance in part because they're afraid Sparta would restore the status quo.
This is indeed the case; Tegea was historically the gate to Sparta and a crucial military position. When Epaminondas founded the city of Megalopolis in Arkadia and Messene in Messenia his purpose was constructing new military counterweights to Spartan power surrounding it that could effectively oppose an attempt by the Spartans to re-assert hegemony.
Most of the area is wooded, hilly, and not very rich. By comparison, the Sikeliote League targeted the interior river valleys, the center of Sicel settlement.
Indeed, this was the actual historical location of Terina; I simply made a cartographical mistake before. I'm quite happy that it makes more sense now.
As for Krotone's loss of Terina, it was likely that Krotone was simply an unkind master but was also weakening and Terina used the opportunity to break off. Lokri was also likely involved.
Welcome to the quest! I saw you like-bombing the quest yesterday. I'd advise that you just see what other people are doing when it comes to IC participation; just find an appropriate Greek name, an occupation or father, and speak as that person to convince others of your arguments. Otherwise you can post OOC; there's no pressure to roleplay beyond getting your IC name mentioned by the Proboulos next update as among those speaking.
I actually blocked that in part because the necessity isn't obvious. I don't want to allow players to just naturally collect reforms; it needs to make sense for those reforms to happen. What's the point of a xenoparakletor of the barbaroi when the barbaroi have been mostly quiet and if they need to be dealt with the Xenoparakletor can do it anyway? There are obviously issues with them right now, but regardless unless there's a major crisis there isn't any obvious reason to change.
This has both realistic and mechanical reasons to happen; on the realistic side, reforms don't generally come from nowhere, and although players can have foresight, in-game characters won't see a reason to reform unless it's actually clear from their perspective as to why they should bother. On the mechanical side, if I allow players to reform willy-nilly, there's nothing to reward people for say, surviving a crisis.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
The mere fact of there being issues isn't really a convincing argument, especially as players previously chose to take a hands-off approach to the issue.