I really hate it when such important information gets disseminated out of thread and OC and it honestly ruins the whole quest for me knowing stuff like that happens here.
Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)
- Thread starter Cetashwayo
- Start date
- Original Alt. History
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- Tags
- ancient greece alternate history empire builder civ quest democracy gods save us granary management hubris it's an eretrian thing. let lose the weasels of war lithocracy lithocracy is my fetish maximum hellene my big fat greek divine wedding this granary aint gonna fill itself cetash unwinnable
I really hate it when such important information gets disseminated out of thread and OC and it honestly ruins the whole quest for me knowing stuff like that happens here.
Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
Oh good grief, it's not like it was some huge spoiler, he'd said just as much in the thread previously.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
What...? I said that I wanted to wait until turn end before for a Kymai expedition. What new info is this?
Sorry dude. Honestly I was going to make a user motion yesterday, I just got delayed because it was my birthday and a bunch of stuff ended up happening. I felt guilty for not getting it done when I thought I would, so rushed on to the forum to do it early this afternoon. That's the chain of events here.
I'm not sure what else is upsetting here, other than that GMs do plan plot events in advance? I guess knowing there's a guy behind the curtain can end up hitting the feeling of immersion a bit, but it's sort of unavoidable in a story that has to be written by another person. Especially one as detailed and in-depth as this one. @Cetashwayo can't do it all on the fly or it'd kill him.
- Location
- Southampton, Great Britain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
It was first mentioned in the thread a couple weeks ago.
- Location
- Canada
- Pronouns
- Him/He
In normal times I would agree but they're is allot riding on both the Congress of Gela and the Adriatic expedition so I'd rather we lead both to completion first and no risking stretching ourselves beyond our limits before that. Besside, @Cetashwayo said we would have a chance to rescue Kymai next year, which means that if everything is going well the city will still be there when we could afford to turn our gazes away from Syracuse and the Liburnians for a while.
Then they're is that too: a colony in modern day Venice would mean taking lands from allies and while we might, and that's a big might, get them to agree to it, what would happen if Kymai latter on decided it need more land? Moreover, a colony so big and so far from us might run the risk of not being so easily manageable and become a commercial rival instead of a trade partner.
If we are gonna do this, and I do understand that might be too much realpolitik for some, I'd say we are better relocating them to lands presently held by the Liburnians, either Issa or somewhere else. That way they would be closer at hand and need us more, and would be perfectly placed to prevent any further resurgence of Liburnian naval power.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
Also this isn't even a matter of plotting plans. People kept poking me about Kymai so I set up a timeline of when you could intervene and left it entirely open on whether and when I would present that until the outcome of the Illyrian expedition and Sicily was decided. It isn't some pre-determined thing, and even if I have long term plans they are necessarily loose and vague without a lot of detail so that player intervention can change them.
Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
What greater expression of wealth and power is there, than to save another people from destruction? Truly, the richest and most powerful people are those who can afford to care for others. Let us demonstrate our generosity and magnanimity to all by saving an entire city from the fires of war. Let there be no plunder for these 'Oscans' these barbaroi from the hills. Let them find naught but empty houses and vacant temples. So great are we, that we shall sail off with the city of Kymai in its entirety. We shall host them all in our city as our guests, and we shall make for them a home here in the Adriatic, and they shall join our league and forever more know peace and prosperity beneath our Demokratia. Let us bring our wayward children home.
I shall lift your stone.
So says I, Arkadios the Captain, son of Arkadios the Fisherman.
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My feeling is that now is an ideal opportunity, because we're negotiating right now with everyone who we will need to negotiate with to get this off the ground. Consequently, the added effort is actually reduced a great deal compared to doing it later in some ways. That synergy was a major motivating factor for me.
Rhegion and the south-western powers are at the Sicilian Conference, where we're going strong on the theme of a united Hellene front against barbaroi, so it kind of makes sense. It would not be hard to add it to the agenda, and it works well with our overall pitch.
Likewise we're already negotiating with the Enetoi, so we can bring it up with them then. They're likely to make immense amounts of money through trade if a successful colony gets set up, so it's in their interest.
That was basically my thought process in wanting to do this now; I suddenly realised the opportunity this turn, because we already have everyone we'd need sitting down at the table, so to speak. That's sort of where I was coming at this from, so maybe it feels less abrupt.
Now, maybe we can wait another six months, I don't know, and a lot of that will depend on @Cetashwayo. But if we're talking about how and when to make this work, then that's already great progress I think.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
A polis of17,000 people (not the city proper but the city+all farmers who fled inside) and 10 ships that has lost a significant portion of its male population to the Oscans.
Droman
𐤊𐤍𐤏𐤍
Then I find myself in Tarentine boots, unequipped for the war he wishes to fight!
Random Member
Gardener of Human Happiness
- Location
- Behind You
BTW, how many people could we transport per ship anyway?
- Location
- Mists of Albion
If they agreed to resettle, that'd be awesome, immediately the three colonies, Ankon, Issa being planned and Venice being a near sure thing for the extra Xenoparakletor policy choice next election, would have a major source of manpower to draw on.
However, transporting these people would be a bitch, and actually getting them to wholesale abandon their city would also be an issue, Eretria itself is a precedent, but it's still going to be difficult if that is our aim.
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- Location
- Space
Taking in the fact that we will be occupied fighting pirates as well and possibility of Syracuse using us being busy to push it's own agenda.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
As I said there will be options in later updates if Eretria ends this turn a free actor. It will not be easy, of course, and require negotiations. It will also have a cost on your other diplomatic choices during election since it is an ambitious expedition.
- Location
- Luton Airport
Assuming we could evacuate them, they needn't all go to the same place. I daresay some would go to Eretria, some to Issa, some to Venice, Sicily, etc.
We just offer them the options to stay together as a community.
We just offer them the options to stay together as a community.
I would be happy for a vote on that.
However I feel like the lagoon is actually a huge opportunity, because we gain a much stronger ally in a key position, and can still get an amber trade route. Actually given the size of Kymai, even if we assume a lot of people might not make the journey or would decide to go elsewhere, it will likely be able to sustain more trade routes than a colony set up at the same time would.
Imagine how much stronger we would be in the Adriatic with an ally or even a League member who had ten Triremes.
It may also be be easier (for the Enetoi) to feed them in the lagoon than at Issa where as far as I'm aware there are a lot less friendly locals.
- Location
- Denmark
- Pronouns
- She/Her
@Cetashwayo: hey can you wait a bit, i was going to announce it in thread later, there's really no need to be so hast-
Me:
I, Glaukommes, son of Perixeontes will lift your rock, Arktos son of Arkadios, for the citizens of Kymai. What glory to save the citizens of Kymai, fellow Hellenes, in need. What great honour to aspire to our own illustrious history and flight from the wrath of the long-haired Persian, to reach across divisions and borders and extend a hand to our fellow Hellenes, our brothers and sisters who suffer while we prosper. Let us show all of Hellas that since we made our escape from old Eretria, we have grown to be a charitable and proud people, who honour our ancestors and the gods in rightful measure. Let us remember the kindness of the Divine Marriage, let us remember the friendliness of Zeus Panhellenios who protects all the Hellenes. Fellow citizens of Furthest Eretria, let the citizens of Kymai fear no evil and know that this sacred ekklesia stands on guard for them.
@Admiral Skippy
Me:
I, Glaukommes, son of Perixeontes will lift your rock, Arktos son of Arkadios, for the citizens of Kymai. What glory to save the citizens of Kymai, fellow Hellenes, in need. What great honour to aspire to our own illustrious history and flight from the wrath of the long-haired Persian, to reach across divisions and borders and extend a hand to our fellow Hellenes, our brothers and sisters who suffer while we prosper. Let us show all of Hellas that since we made our escape from old Eretria, we have grown to be a charitable and proud people, who honour our ancestors and the gods in rightful measure. Let us remember the kindness of the Divine Marriage, let us remember the friendliness of Zeus Panhellenios who protects all the Hellenes. Fellow citizens of Furthest Eretria, let the citizens of Kymai fear no evil and know that this sacred ekklesia stands on guard for them.
@Admiral Skippy
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I have no problem with the GM plotting things out or events happening for narrative reasons but what I utterly despise is information asymmetry of the userbase. I spent a not insignificant amount of my free time trying to keep up to date with the quest and even research the time and be involved with the debate so when I see stuff like "seems like this player used information from a private talk with me, the GM, as the foundation/reasoning behind this idea. Oh well, have fun" I tend to wonder why I am playing this thing in the first place. Maybe this wasn't the case here but the way that statement was worded certainly suggested it to me.
Yes, we knew that we would get an option to do something about Cumae/Kymai and if you want to be generous and include history we also knew that it was highly likely it would fall. But that is still a ways off from "city is doomed to fall, thoroughly demoralized and desperately looking for an escape and somehow we know that and send a massive fleet to relocate them and highly likely integrate them into our league so who wants to send the ships now?". Especially since the last public GM statement regarding the whole business was that it would come up in the future. I would have hoped that before we need to decide what to do about Kymai we would get some information about the situation because as it stands I find both hard to argue against the motion but also hard to divine possible alternatives because a few minutes ago I knew basically nothing beyond the historic facts and believed that the most likely option we would get would be a miliatry expedition or perhaps a diplomatic effort for an alliance with other Greek cities for an intervention (or if you want get fancy perhaps even Latin powers or other etruscans) , perhaps not even led by ourselves but one of the cities closer to the situation and with stronger ties to Kymai.
Yes, we knew that we would get an option to do something about Cumae/Kymai and if you want to be generous and include history we also knew that it was highly likely it would fall. But that is still a ways off from "city is doomed to fall, thoroughly demoralized and desperately looking for an escape and somehow we know that and send a massive fleet to relocate them and highly likely integrate them into our league so who wants to send the ships now?". Especially since the last public GM statement regarding the whole business was that it would come up in the future. I would have hoped that before we need to decide what to do about Kymai we would get some information about the situation because as it stands I find both hard to argue against the motion but also hard to divine possible alternatives because a few minutes ago I knew basically nothing beyond the historic facts and believed that the most likely option we would get would be a miliatry expedition or perhaps a diplomatic effort for an alliance with other Greek cities for an intervention (or if you want get fancy perhaps even Latin powers or other etruscans) , perhaps not even led by ourselves but one of the cities closer to the situation and with stronger ties to Kymai.
Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
I mean, all their menfolk are dead. Unless they have more people who are able to stand in the phalanx, they have no hope. Yeah it will take a while, but eventually the money, and the grain, will run out. Then its only a matter of time until they either starve, eat each other, or fall on their own swords.
Mass suicide in these hopeless situations was a thing in ancient times, because mercy was neither given nor expected. Yes, if they think there is no hope then the people who will fight will fall upon those who cannot and kill them, before turning their swords upon themselves.
- Location
- Southampton, Great Britain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
It seemed thematically appropriate given the events of the previous quest.
Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
Allow me to reframe the implied demand behind this statement, so that you'll see how utterly unreasonable you're being:
"I insist that the GM never, ever permit any of their friends to participate in the quest, or that if they do, they never speak to their friends about even the most trivial of details regarding the quest, otherwise I will protest most strenuously and threaten to leave the game!"
If that ruins a game for you, then speaking as a GM of 20 years, good riddance to you, as you're the most selfish, petulant sort of player there is: the sort who insists the GM's life outside the game must conform to their wishes. Words cannot express the utter contempt that I have for this sort of complaint regarding GM behavior.