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Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)

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Professor Vesca said:
I mean, all their menfolk are dead. Unless they have more people who are able to stand in the phalanx, they have no hope. Yeah it will take a while, but eventually the money, and the grain, will run out. Then its only a matter of time until they either starve, eat each other, or fall on their own swords.

Mass suicide in these hopeless situations was a thing in ancient times, because mercy was neither given nor expected. Yes, if they think there is no hope then the people who will fight will fall upon those who cannot and kill them, before turning their swords upon themselves.
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And yet history is full of examples of cities withstanding sieges or similar circumstances, especially against barbarians. Because all it takes is a single disease outbreak or internal dispute and the besieging force go away/are satisfied with tribute. After all despite being so terribly weakened the city has been said and shown to capable of withstanding a siege for several years..
 
Erandil said:
And yet history is full of examples of cities withstanding sieges or similar circumstances, especially against barbarians. Because all it takes is a single disease outbreak or internal dispute and the besieging force go away/are satisfied with tribute. After all despite being so terribly weakened the city has been said and shown to capable of withstanding a siege for several years..
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And history is filled with cities under siege, with no manpower to fight off the invaders, eventually giving in and being slaughtered/sold into slavery.

Whats your point? Do you think that your proposed scenario is going to be whats going to happen to Kymai? Will a divine wind sweep down from the mountains and blow the Oscans into the sea? One does not count on miracles in this situation. They are trapped behind their walls, unless the Gods themselves descend Mount Olympus to give them a thumbs up, or some other situation arises which the Kymaians cannot account for, they are doomed.
 
Erandil said:
And yet history is full of examples of cities withstanding sieges or similar circumstances, especially against barbarians. Because all it takes is a single disease outbreak or internal dispute and the besieging force go away/are satisfied with tribute. After all despite being so terribly weakened the city has been said and shown to capable of withstanding a siege for several years..
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I kinda doubt we're going to drag the population of Kymai out of their city at swordpoint onto our ships. If they don't want to take up the offer of evacuation, c'est la vie (Sideros has been picking up phrases from that blacksmith who lives over at the Tiber).
 
Erandil said:
I have no problem with the GM plotting things out or events happening for narrative reasons but what I utterly despise is information asymmetry of the userbase. I spent a not insignificant amount of my free time trying to keep up to date with the quest and even research the time and be involved with the debate so when I see stuff like "seems like this player used information from a private talk with me, the GM, as the foundation/reasoning behind this idea. Oh well, have fun" I tend to wonder why I am playing this thing in the first place. Maybe this wasn't the case here but the way that statement was worded certainly suggested it to me.
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It was an idea that a number of players were discussing, that we then ran by @Cetashwayo because it would be rude not to given it could have major plot implications. I then ended up posting it a the user motion a day later than I said I would, somewhat in haste due to feeling bad about being late, although it now seems like it maybe could have waited a day longer. That's the chain of events here.

Honestly part of the reality of living in the world is that other people will discuss things which they find interesting, and come up with plans. At the end of the day this is a quest, not a criminal trial. There is no mandated wall of silence surrounding GMs or players, and it is frankly unfair to expect there to be for one's own preference, given they are real people with their own lives.

I do realise it must have felt a bit like a bolt from the blue. In retrospect, if I'd had more time I should have raised the idea in discussion earlier, rather than leaping to action suddenly here. I hope you will forgive me for that.

Star said:
I only know that much of our actions will really depend Syracuse.

BTW why did we chose them as our enemies?
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Honestly I'm not entirely sure about that one, although I fee like the fact that they were farthest away was probably a factor. To be fair, I'm actually not all unhappy about that myself, and definitely am pleased we didn't pick Taras as I enjoy our newfound friendship now.
 
Ironanvil1 said:
I kinda doubt we're going to drag the population of Kymai out of their city at swordpoint onto our ships. If they don't want to take up the offer of evacuation, c'est la vie (Sideros has been picking up phrases from that blacksmith who lives over at the Tiber).
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I mean, the choice isn't much of a choice. If they are that proud they would rather face the Barbaroi, we have neither the ability nor time to enact a kidnapping of a polis. We are not that kind of people, and I am pretty sure we would just leave them to their fate if they refused.
 
Ironanvil1 said:
I kinda doubt we're going to drag the population of Kymai out of their city at swordpoint onto our ships. If they don't want to take up the offer of evacuation, c'est la vie (Sideros has been picking up phrases from that blacksmith who lives over at the Tiber).
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Professor Vesca said:
I mean, the choice isn't much of a choice. If they are that proud they would rather face the Barbaroi, we have neither the ability nor time to enact a kidnapping of a polis. We are not that kind of people, and I am pretty sure we would just leave them to their fate if they refused.
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Ultimately it should probably be pretty easy to find out if they'd be receptive to the offer before we sail the massive rescue fleet into their harbour. We could send someone from our delegation in Sicily right now to sound them out about it, even.

Personally, I think a lot of them will be.
 
After some deliberation, Methodios son of Pelagios will lift Arktos' rock. Given the dire circumstances of Kymai at present, I think it fair to say that the citizens of that polis will be pleased at any assistance we can spare, even if only to evacuate as much of their own families and their wealth (so that said families might not be reduced to paupers as well as refugees) as possible, and that our known distaste for slavery will greatly reassure them that we have no nefarious ulterior motives behind our offer.
 
The thing people need to understand is that the Oscans arent the Tarantines. If Taras say, invaded, and we lost, we could retreat behind our walls. They would pillage and burn the countryside, and then go home. They have fields to tend, just as we do. They have their own enemies to worry about and their own city.

These Oscans? They have none of those things. They are shepherds. They arent here to bunch the Kymaians in the teeth, they are here to settle down and raise their flocks. All that they own are probably right behind them, and the only thing they are worried abut is killing all the Kymaians so that they can do shepherd things in peace. Because the Kymaians have land that they want.

They have no cities to go back to, no fields to distract them during the winter time. If Kymai settles in for a siege, the Oscans have no problem settling in themselves because chances are their house is probably being built just over the hill right now. Unless the Kyamaians have soldiers with which to push back the Oscans or otherwise threaten their settlements, the Oscans can stay for as long as they need to, because eventually the food will run out, and so will the money to buy grain. Yes, the City can lat for years under siege, but unless they can afford mercenaries or can give birth to men ready to stand in the phalanx, then they are done for.
 
@Cetashwayo - How developed is Kymai? Like, if we somehow evacuate everyone, are we leaving behind a shell of a city that the Oscans will be able to transform into the capital of a new Samnite polity? Because Kymai is like one of the oldest Greek colonies in Italy if I'm not mistaken.
 
Droman said:
@Cetashwayo - How developed is Kymai? Like, if we somehow evacuate everyone, are we leaving behind a shell of a city that the Oscans will be able to transform into the capital of a new Samnite polity? Because Kymai is like one of the oldest Greek colonies in Italy if I'm not mistaken.
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Well, historically it evolved into the Roman city of Cumae (note pronunciation), which was fairly significant as I recall.

So yeah, the Samnites will probably be able to take it and get some mileage out of holding it. But that's not exactly the worst thing in the world, and it's not like we can stop them in the long run.
 
When we say we're lifting the rock of a user motion, the implication is in fact that we are picking up a rock and the dude standing on top of it so he can speak over the crowd, right?

Also, what is the typical attire for men attending the assembly?
 
Erandil said:
I have no problem with the GM plotting things out or events happening for narrative reasons but what I utterly despise is information asymmetry of the userbase. I spent a not insignificant amount of my free time trying to keep up to date with the quest and even research the time and be involved with the debate so when I see stuff like "seems like this player used information from a private talk with me, the GM, as the foundation/reasoning behind this idea. Oh well, have fun" I tend to wonder why I am playing this thing in the first place. Maybe this wasn't the case here but the way that statement was worded certainly suggested it to me.

Yes, we knew that we would get an option to do something about Cumae/Kymai and if you want to be generous and include history we also knew that it was highly likely it would fall. But that is still a ways off from "city is doomed to fall, thoroughly demoralized and desperately looking for an escape and somehow we know that and send a massive fleet to relocate them and highly likely integrate them into our league so who wants to send the ships now?". Especially since the last public GM statement regarding the whole business was that it would come up in the future. I would have hoped that before we need to decide what to do about Kymai we would get some information about the situation because as it stands I find both hard to argue against the motion but also hard to divine possible alternatives because a few minutes ago I knew basically nothing beyond the historic facts and believed that the most likely option we would get would be a miliatry expedition or perhaps a diplomatic effort for an alliance with other Greek cities for an intervention (or if you want get fancy perhaps even Latin powers or other etruscans) , perhaps not even led by ourselves but one of the cities closer to the situation and with stronger ties to Kymai.
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Ey gevolte.

Skippy asked me ooc on discord about their motion. I said to wait, but then said if they wanted to suggest the idea before turn end that was fine. They misinterpeted that to mean a full on user motion. I don't have any intention to implement their motion as it stands, though the possibility of moving some of Kymai's people to Venice could be possible. There's not enough player information about Kymai to justify it and as you say it would be unfair to privilege Skippy's motion.

They didn't really ask me very much on the subject, just some basic questions about the possibility.

I got a day job, guy. I'm not the same neurotic kid desperate for kudos and approval I used to be. I do this quest for fun and sometimes I talk to friends about the quest and they talk to me. There was some miscommunication here but it's not a big deal. I am not really going to take this user motion and run with it, and I actually had something more complicated planned for the situation, but now you're suddenly impugning motives on me all of a sudden and saying this ruins the quest for you. Legit a bit baffled by this behavior given I have literally refused to set up a discord to be fair to people in thread and I am constantly making an effort to include people. When have I ever done anything other than make an effort to ensure players are happy and their concerns are met? I wrote 3,000 words just to settle your justifiable concerns about mercenaries!
 
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Cetashwayo said:
Ey gevolte.

Skippy asked me ooc on discord about their motion. I said to wait, but then said if they wanted to suggest the idea before turn end that was fine. They misinterpeted that to mean a full on user motion. I don't have any intention to implement their motion as it stands, though the possibility of moving some of Kymai's people to Venice could be possible.

They didn't really ask me very much on the subject, just some basic questions about the possibility.

I got a day job, guy. I'm not the same neurotic kid desperate for kudos and approval I used to be. I do this quest for fun and sometimes I talk to friends about the quest and they talk to me. There was some miscommunication here but it's not a big deal. I am not really going to take this user motion and run with it, and I actually had something more complicated planned for the situation, but now you're suddenly impugning motives on me all of a sudden and saying this ruins the quest for you. Legit a bit baffled by this behavior given I have literally refused to set up a discord to be fair to people in thread and I am constantly making an effort to include people. When have I ever done anything other than make an effort to ensure players are happy and their concerns are met? I wrote 3,000 words just to settle your justifiable concerns about mercenaries!
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For what it's worth, from where I stand, YOU are fine, though I get a bit twitchy and paranoid sometimes because I've had a history of tripping over cases where QMs do start sharing huge amounts of information on separate channels and it creates strongly tiered access to information.

But you don't do that, as you pointed out. You are fine.
 
Oh, sure. I see it happen a lot. But I am not that guy. When I share info it's with people who beta my work, not with an entire discord cabal. I am only in one discord channel, and it's a private group with me and friends I know from AH.com who I voicechat with. I sometimes DM people about this quest but it's to beta my work and check the plausibility of some concepts I am likely to change over time.

And if that's too much then I don't give a shit, because this is a quest on a website and I like talking to people about it. I expect they will not talk about things I tell them unless I want them to and am free to contradict them at any time. Like what kind of QMs are gonna fuck players on an asymmetry of information? That's just dickish. I approach this quest just like I do GMing a nation game, which means being fair to players and listening to their concerns.
 
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Himmelhand said:
When we say we're lifting the rock of a user motion, the implication is in fact that we are picking up a rock and the dude standing on top of it so he can speak over the crowd, right?

Also, what is the typical attire for men attending the assembly?
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Yes, you stand on a rock carried by your supporters. There's usually ropes now and rocks built for the purpose making the job a little easier.

Traditional Hellene attire, although a modified Illyrian cap is sometimes popular as a hat if it's sunny out.

Droman said:
@Cetashwayo - How developed is Kymai? Like, if we somehow evacuate everyone, are we leaving behind a shell of a city that the Oscans will be able to transform into the capital of a new Samnite polity? Because Kymai is like one of the oldest Greek colonies in Italy if I'm not mistaken.
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In the historical timeline Capua became the main city of the plain, in competition with Nuceria in the south. The Campani, an Oscan tribe emerging from the ashes of the invasion, will eventually become more urbanized over time, but at first the fall of Kymai severs many of the commercial networks with Etruria the Hellenes maintained.

Professor Vesca said:
So what about Neapolis, Pompeii, and Pithekousai?
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Small towns, with Neapolis being the largest of them. Pithekousai started as a trading post in the hazy first days of western colonization and is the original settlement in the area. Neapolis was founded this century, and Pompeii is a small settlement which should really have a greek name, but I unfortunately don't know its Greek name. It becomes far more important as a Campanian city before it is viciously and spectacularly looted by Sulla, after which it becomes the diminished Roman Pompeii that is buried by Vesuvius.
 
Cetashwayo said:
Yes, you stand on a rock carried by your supporters. There's usually ropes now and rocks built for the purpose making the job a little easier.

Traditional Hellene attire, although a modified Illyrian cap is sometimes popular as a hat if it's sunny out.



In the historical timeline Capua became the main city of the plain, in competition with Nuceria in the south. The Campani, an Oscan tribe emerging from the ashes of the invasion, will eventually become more urbanized over time, but at first the fall of Kymai severs many of the commercial networks with Etruria the Hellenes maintained.



Small towns, with Neapolis being the largest of them. Pithekousai started as a trading post in the hazy first days of western colonization and is the original settlement in the area. Neapolis was founded this century, and Pompeii is a small settlement which should really have a greek name, but I unfortunately don't know its Greek name. It becomes far more important as a Campanian city before it is viciously and spectacularly looted by Sulla, after which it becomes the diminished Roman Pompeii that is buried by Vesuvius.
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I was more asking if we were going to take them all with us or if they wanted to tough it out.
 
Professor Vesca said:
I was more asking if we were going to take them all with us or if they wanted to tough it out.
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Pompeii already fell to the Oscans this turn. And once again, I'll have options up for this later depending on circumstances.

Let's drop further conversation of Kymai. You'll get more information this update. Thanks to everyone who supported the user motion and apologies for any misunderstandings and miscommunication. Rest assured there will be open-ended options to deal with the situation as well as plenty more info on what to do.
 
And let me clear: Regardless of your bad situations with other QMs, I am not those other QMs. I do not fuck over players without prior explanation. I try to establish threats beforehand. I do not blow threats out of proportion or give them special advantages the players don't have. I do not suddenly have a new power burst out from nowhere that can defeat the players. I do not have issues explode in a single turn that players are helpless to stop. I communicate information constantly to players and make changes based on player concerns. I do not alter background mechanics in ways that are unfair to players, and when I do make changes (like the naval change), I compensate players if it caused them to lose revenue in the past. If I contradict my past statements I'll acknowledge that and make sure a retcon does not fuck over players. I'm not perfect, but my purpose here isn't to put you through the ringer.

I treat this quest like I am GMing a grand strategy roleplay and you are my players, which means that I endeavor to be fair, honest, and straightforward. If I've given any indication otherwise let me know, but try to take me on good faith here rather than exporting anxieties from other quests I have no awareness of.
 
Cetashwayo said:
And let me clear: Regardless of your bad situations with other QMs, I am not those other QMs. I do not fuck over players without prior explanation. I try to establish threats beforehand. I do not blow threats out of proportion or give them special advantages the players don't have. I do not suddenly have a new power burst out from nowhere that can defeat the players. I do not have issues explode in a single turn that players are helpless to stop. I communicate information constantly to players and make changes based on player concerns. I do not alter background mechanics in ways that are unfair to players, and when I do make changes (like the naval change), I compensate players if it caused them to lose revenue in the past. If I contradict my past statements I'll acknowledge that and make sure a retcon does not fuck over players. I'm not perfect, but my purpose here isn't to put you through the ringer.

I treat this quest like I am GMing a grand strategy roleplay and you are my players, which means that I endeavor to be fair, honest, and straightforward. If I've given any indication otherwise let me know, but try to take me on good faith here rather than exporting anxieties from other quests I have no awareness of.
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Which is why I quest here and not on other forums. The questmasters in SV are very advanced compared to other places I have been.
 
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