- Location
- Space
You know if you wish colony, Issa is free and is within our current plan framework.
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Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)
- Thread starter Cetashwayo
- Start date
- Original Alt. History
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- Tags
- ancient greece alternate history empire builder civ quest democracy gods save us granary management hubris it's an eretrian thing. let lose the weasels of war lithocracy lithocracy is my fetish maximum hellene my big fat greek divine wedding this granary aint gonna fill itself cetash unwinnable
You know if you wish colony, Issa is free and is within our current plan framework.
NuclearConsensus
Herald of the Thorned One
- Location
- the Philippines
Why settle them in the Venetian lagoon though? That's a colony I'd prefer to be in Eretrian hands.
Why not this? Why not settle them in Issa?
Eh, such a strategy seems more than a bit hasty in my opinion and I don't think it is a given that the citizens of Kymai would positively receive such a proposal, especially since it in effect means accepting our overlordship. We aren't talking about a small town/colony here but a well established local power with a long and glorious history, ties to the area, sizeable population that may well view their strategic situation not nearly hopeless enough to make the prospect of fleeing wholesale an attractive one. It also seem seriously OC for our city, conqueror of barbarians, to advocate such a course as the first course of action against an enemy we haven't even faced on the battlefield.
That's true, but why wouldn't we expand our trade network on the Adriatic when we have the opportunity?
This way we have an ally, trading partner, and quite possibly Epulian League member (we'll need to work that out later) right at the gateway to Europe.
Issa may also not have enough friendly locals for us to resettle several thousand people abruptly unless we're going to provide most of the supplies. With the Venetian lagoon islands, there's a lot of food locally and they can trade with the Enetoi, so if we spot them a year or two's grain then they'll probably be fine on their own. The lagoon islands are actually extremely fertile, as marshland often is.
I realise this is a lot, but there are times when we want to be bold, and I think this is one of them.
Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
"Eretria Eshkata knows the pain of exile, knows the loss of one's mother-city. Would we not have wished for such aid when the Medes came for us? Is it not the glory of magnificence to give for the good of others, that finest of expressions of power? Among the Enetoi, the Liburnians, or here in Epulia, where matters less than that we do this, that it be known to all the lengths to which Eretria will go for our fellow Hellenes when they are most desperate.
"So says Theopilos the Younger, son of Theopilos the Elder."
"So says Theopilos the Younger, son of Theopilos the Elder."
Droman
𐤊𐤍𐤏𐤍
Huh, he didn't mention anything recently in the thread. Last he said was that there would be options relating to Kymai soon, and while he did also mention user motion I figured he's have a post up for people to start lifting rocks at.
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- Space
We can have our colony that will be our ally, trading partner and member of our league there for sure in lagoon .
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Kymai means we will have a massively larger presence there than we could establish on our own in the same amount of time. Having a city sitting up there will kickstart the whole Adriatic economy from a backwater to a major commercial zone.
Keep in mind, we will have saved these people from slavery or worse. They're going to be extremely grateful, so if it succeeds, they are going to be our allies, and may quite possibly be a member of the League. It's better than a small colony.
What I'm proposing will put is in the history books and save thousands of people who can be our allies rather than being driven into the sea. It will immensely strengthen our position and our sphere of influence in the Adriatic. It will once again show to all our neighbors that Eretria is the decisive power in Italian affairs.
This can work. Apologies if it seems like a bit of a bolt from the blue, I meant to post yesterday but ended up super busy, but trust me on this. It can work, and it will work.
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- Space
It also means that we will do it in cooperation with other powers, many of them who don't want to see Eretrian hegemony in the region and will see to it to avoid it. Add to it that Kymai well established power within region with long history wich means that it won't accept our Lordship so easily even if we save them (once again it won't have lack of support in that matter).
Im fine with helping them but giving the Venetian lagoon is a little to much me.
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- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
With our ships busy fighting the pirates, will we have the capacity to evacuate the people of Kymai?
Again, I am honestly not sure where you get this idea from that the people of Kymai want to desperately flee at this point in time since I would argue that this is quite an extreme statement to make with no further information. Because historically speaking events like that were very rare even when the possibility presented itself and people weren't exactly in the habit of giving up well fortified cities at the drop of a hat. What is history full is however cities that resisted even several year long sieges by various "barbarian" groups... If the people were that desperate to flee the city they would probably have done so already or at least cast out some feelers considering we aren't exactly talking about a nobody here but a city with a long naval, mercantile and military tradition.
- Location
- Hungary
Kleon is more than happy to support any plan to save Kymai, but I think we have to try and save the city there rather than move the citizens.
First they probably won't take that too kindly. They have stout walls, enough food for a siege and while probably quite terrified by now, under siege just by barbarians. If they are a proud bunch, they will hesitate to leave their city.
If they leave, that'll only push the oscans againt Neapolis, which is also in the region and threatened by the Barbaroi. So if we manage to reach out for Campania, we might have to think about them too.
Also, I'm not sure if leaving the area to the shepherd will do good to us. If I'm correct, the ships of this area are not really suitable for longer journeys and make stops daily on their way. (@Cetashwayo , can you confirm this?) With the fall of Campania (and the missed opportunity to secure the trade routes with the alliance with Rhegion), our tradeships will find harder to reach Etruria, the destination of one of our luxury trade routes. Kymai give us a safe and friendly port on the Tyrrhenian Sea, which can be useful any time we do business there.
On the other hand, our foreign policy this year will tie down our capacity to lend meaningful aid to them. Our ships will fight in the Adria, our xenoparakletor is occupied with stirring the Sicilian Pot. (If war brokes out there, I fear that the strait of Messina will be a messy place and further threaten our helping plans.)
On a side note, Kleon will be much happier if we can manage to aid the Etruscans of the region too but I fear that it is too late for that. May the gods be merciful for every civilized people out there.
So, I will happily support any plans to help them, but first we will need to gather more information on the situation and gather our strength to help too.
After that, we might have to secure the city: if we can defeat the Oscans and the lose momentum with their attack, we may secure our friend's town there.
Then, if we fail or can't save them there, we try to evacuate the city. It will be hard and need a careful plan, for now I can't say if moving them as a single bloc will be the best solution.
(Sorry for the OOC post, I don't really have time right now to write more :-()
First they probably won't take that too kindly. They have stout walls, enough food for a siege and while probably quite terrified by now, under siege just by barbarians. If they are a proud bunch, they will hesitate to leave their city.
If they leave, that'll only push the oscans againt Neapolis, which is also in the region and threatened by the Barbaroi. So if we manage to reach out for Campania, we might have to think about them too.
Also, I'm not sure if leaving the area to the shepherd will do good to us. If I'm correct, the ships of this area are not really suitable for longer journeys and make stops daily on their way. (@Cetashwayo , can you confirm this?) With the fall of Campania (and the missed opportunity to secure the trade routes with the alliance with Rhegion), our tradeships will find harder to reach Etruria, the destination of one of our luxury trade routes. Kymai give us a safe and friendly port on the Tyrrhenian Sea, which can be useful any time we do business there.
On the other hand, our foreign policy this year will tie down our capacity to lend meaningful aid to them. Our ships will fight in the Adria, our xenoparakletor is occupied with stirring the Sicilian Pot. (If war brokes out there, I fear that the strait of Messina will be a messy place and further threaten our helping plans.)
On a side note, Kleon will be much happier if we can manage to aid the Etruscans of the region too but I fear that it is too late for that. May the gods be merciful for every civilized people out there.
So, I will happily support any plans to help them, but first we will need to gather more information on the situation and gather our strength to help too.
After that, we might have to secure the city: if we can defeat the Oscans and the lose momentum with their attack, we may secure our friend's town there.
Then, if we fail or can't save them there, we try to evacuate the city. It will be hard and need a careful plan, for now I can't say if moving them as a single bloc will be the best solution.
(Sorry for the OOC post, I don't really have time right now to write more :-()
Rhegion really does not care what we're up to in the Adriatic.
If we were going to be arbitrary dicks like Athens, maybe, but we have never conducted ourselves with our league members and allied states in that kind of way. We will be far stronger with Kymai as our lifelong ally than with a tiny but subservient colony.
Honestly, the idea that main reason we would not save thousands of fellow Hellenes in a feat worthy of song is because they might not bend the knee 100% to us is just ridiculous.
Who cares? It is the generous, strong and brave thing to do.
We aren't sending all our triremes to do that, and I suspect that the overwhelming majority of the ships we'd use for transport would actually be trade ships. We can also ask all of our allies to lend a hand. The Samnites don't have a fleet, so even a modest naval escort is fine.
It will be vital to get Rhegion's okay, but honestly it's in their interests to say yes because it removes a trade rival, and avoids the risk of all the survivors going to Neapolis and still competing with them.
Evacuating a city without even attempting to save it or having shown any sign it desires such an action so that it can serve as a colony/vassal to us and further our own imperialistic and mercantile goals is many things but neither brave, strong or generous.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
Yes, but it appears Skippy has used a discord discussion with me to jump the gun on the subject somewhat before I could give an in-thread okay
We have a number of examples of Hellene poleis evacuating significant portions of the population away and doing so multiple consecutive times. Athenai threatened to do it during the Persian Wars and the Phokaeans moved to Alalia, Hyele and then Massalia all the way from the eastern coast of the Aegean. Not as one group, mind you, just as not every Eretrian landed in Italy.
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The city is about to fall. Historically the Samnites broke through the walls and killed everyone.
The opening to this chapter was about the Samnite war parties sacking cities and the tragedy of war, and we know Kymai is under siege with very little hope right now. So even just within the context of the Quest, we know the city is probably going to fall.
We aren't deducing this from scattered threads here, we can put two and two together and get a number between three and five.
I sympathize, but we can't win a war with the Samnites right now, especially so far from our borders. Not without a degree of support from other cities that is probably not practical right now, especially with everyone so focused on Sicily.
- Location
- Southern Virginia
My main concern here is that the fall of Kymai isn't necessarily easy to forsee? We know they lost and the Samnites overran the city (though not how they did it) but is the situation as known in the present setting "bad enough" to make such an effort plausible to conceive and execute?
We are not attempting to vassalize them, and we have never acted in this manner with our Greek allies.
The fact that we all benefit does not mean this would be an immense act of generosity and kindness to one of our former colonies, and something likely to be celebrated throughout Greece.
Yes, but it appears Skippy has used a discord discussion with me to jump the gun on the subject somewhat before I could give an in-thread okay
guiltylabradorface.jpg
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
Hence why I had wanted it to wait until the end of the turn when I could make new developments justify a mission of this kind in the future, if the Adriatic war is successful.
Random Member
Gardener of Human Happiness
- Location
- Behind You
We can always just "temporarily" evacuate the women and children, the ones who wouldn't be able to fight anyway and who'd only eat food that could be reserved for the soldiers.
We're helping in the defence!
We're helping in the defence!
That is a valid concern.
Personally considering the immense momentum of the Samnite onslaught, and the bewildering and upsetting speed with which they've taken city after city, it is a realistic fear at this point. They've also shown the repeated ability to break through defended walls, and we know Kymai has lost a lot of fighting men. At this point I think it's likely people are going to consider scattering across the Mediterranean. But it's definitely worth checking.
@Cetashwayo, would we in-setting have good reason to think right now that it is likely Kymai will fall?
Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
Hey, look at it like this, in the narrative, Eretria has had people practically chomping at the bit to go off and help Kymai for the entire year.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
When the news comes about Poseidonia and Neapolis you will.
