Thanks for the breakdown! A mistake: the Artemis, Ploutos Athene plan and the Gregorios is switched if I'm correct. At least, my (Kleon's) plan is different
Ah damn. And I thought I'd finally gotten things right. Guess that's what I get for working on this so late in the evening. I'll fix it tomorrow morning at the earliest.
I did a manual tally, and Phokion is in the lead by quite a bit. It's got 13 votes compared to second place, which is a three-way tie with 3 plans with 3 votes apiece.
I also did a breakdown of things the various plans are voting for. Note, at the time of writing there are currently 8 plans. Actually, there's a ninth, but it didn't have any votes so I didn't count it.
Plan Name
Phokion
Phobos
Adriatic Reform
Sophos and Phobos
Artemis Ploutos Athene
Gregorios
Theopilos
Dareios
Colony 1
Restricted
Restricted
Open
Open
Restricted
Restricted
Restricted
Restricted
Colony 2
Central Control
Central Control
Central Control
Central Control
Central Control
Central Control
Central Control
Central Control
Colony 3
Single League
Single League
Single League
Single League
Single League
Single League
Single League
Single League
Congress 1
Work With
Work With
Send Away
Work With
Work with
Send Away
Send Away
Work With
Congress 2
Selinous
Selinous
Gela
Selinous
Selinous
Gela
Gela
Gela
Congress 3
Fight Sicels
Fight Sicels
Sicily for Sicilians
Fight Sicels
Fight Sicels
Sicily for Sicilians
Fight Sicels
Sicily for Sicilians
Illyria 1
Enetoi
Enetoi
Enetoi
Enetoi
Dalmatae
Etruscans
Enetoi
Dalmatae
Illyria 2
Wooden Wall
Iron Ram
Wooden Wall
Iron Ram
Iron Ram
Wooden Wall
Wooden Wall
Wooden Wall
Summary
Colony Issues
Issue 1: Selection - 6 plans to 2 in favor of restricted selection
Issue 2: Colonization - unanimous in favor of central control
Issue 3: League - also unanimous in favor of a single league
Congress Issues
Issue 1: Athenai - 5 to 3 in favor of working with Athenai
Issue 2: Diplomacy - Half are for Selinous, the other half for Gela
Issue 3: Peacekeeping - 5 plans are for conquest, 3 for united Sicily, none for fighting Carthage
Illyrian Issues
Issue 1: Allies - 5 are for the Enetoi, 2 for the Dalamatae, and 1 for the Etruscans
Issue 2: Strategos - 5 favor the Wall compared to 3 for the Ram.
Eh, Plan Dareios has both 'Fight Sicels' and 'Enetoi', not 'Sicily for Sicilians' and 'Dalmatae'. I think you have me confused with Plan Theopilos on those.
Eh, Plan Dareios has both 'Fight Sicels' and 'Enetoi', not 'Sicily for Sicilians' and 'Dalmatae'. I think you have me confused with Plan Theopilos on those.
I am once again reminded why I thank the gods daily for having given me success in theater. It's because I'm shite at everything else.
OOC: With that mistake, I'm fairly sure the problem's from my original draft on Gdocs. Seems I can't let this wait 'till morning. Give me a couple of minutes to check all the plans individually.
@NuclearConsensus Thanks for the effort of gathering the info on all the plans, however I wanted to point out that Plan Gregorios is mixed up with Plan Theopilos.
My logic for choosing Selinous is simple; we don't need their active support, just for them to retain their customary neutrality so Syracuse can't force through the ban on outside alliances. They are a mercantile city weakly and newly attached to Syracuse only by concern regarding Carthaginian strength. Thus they may be easiest to sway with Athenian silver and some hints of Athenian interest as a balance against Carthage. And Carthage in any case is overstretched and likely to commit to a long-term campaign against the Numidians after their latest defeat.
Obander is undoubtedly personally better suited to talk to Gela but having the Athenians around compromises the "Idealistic" approach. It's better overall in my thinking to be more assured of getting a reprieve in Sicily that favors our allies and keeping Athens as a dangerous friend, than to gamble on solving the problem for good right now and risk failure while spurning Athens.
Also eh working with Alkibiades will be interesting in any case.
I concur with this argumentation. Selinous is more likely to be swayed by keeping Athens around, for their main interest is protection. Gela on the other hand is more likely to be turned by our focus on fighting the natives. They seem to mainly be interested in a balance of power and would probably react quite badly to Athenian threats.
I see Plan Phokion as guaranteed to succeed in the short term (Selinous will back us at the Congress), but fail in its declared long term ambition of blocking Syrakousai from gaining strength by conquering the interior. For this to work we would first have to turn Gela away from them. Otherwise, Syrakousai will be their go to ally when confronting the Sicels.
Plan Gregorios, on the other hand relies more on Obander's stats and Gela's interest in expanding to the interior to secure our "victory" at the Congress. However, should we succeed in this then a neutral Gela might well team up with the Sikeliote League to take Morgantina. This would make sure that Syrakousai is kept away from gaining new lands in the interior.
My logic for choosing Selinous is simple; we don't need their active support, just for them to retain their customary neutrality so Syracuse can't force through the ban on outside alliances. They are a mercantile city weakly and newly attached to Syracuse only by concern regarding Carthaginian strength. Thus they may be easiest to sway with Athenian silver and some hints of Athenian interest as a balance against Carthage. And Carthage in any case is overstretched and likely to commit to a long-term campaign against the Numidians after their latest defeat.
Obander is undoubtedly personally better suited to talk to Gela but having the Athenians around compromises the "Idealistic" approach. It's better overall in my thinking to be more assured of getting a reprieve in Sicily that favors our allies and keeping Athens as a dangerous friend, than to gamble on solving the problem for good right now and risk failure while spurning Athens.
Also eh working with Alkibiades will be interesting in any case.
My logic for the idealistic approach is that having Athens around might make our case for Sicily banding together for us -- if they're more closely united, then they can tell Athens to fuck off if they want. The idea here is basically to stop dicking around with them and make it clear that we're trying to help them, even if it means that we won't have the advantage. Because we're not going to keep said advantage for much longer, so why not deliberate set it aside in favor of the diplomatic advantage in having helped them do this.
As for the choice of barbarian allies in the Adriatic, yeah, I could go either way between the Dalmatae and the Enetoi & Histri for the immediate benefit, but I see allying with the Dalmatae here as synergizing exceptionally well with our measured pace of colonization.
While this is true, citizenship limitations were devised specifically as a way to prevent the development of a cross-city aristocracy with more loyalty to family in other poleis than their own.
As for the choice of barbarian allies in the Adriatic, yeah, I could go either way between the Dalmatae and the Enetoi & Histri for the immediate benefit, but I see allying with the Dalmatae here as synergizing exceptionally well with our measured pace of colonization.
How would the choices of allies alter the plan? How much time would it take to for the Dalmatae to get in position? Are they the origin of Dalmatian dogs?
It depends on the allies. Let's say Irenaeos. He'd use the Etruscans as additional ships for raiding, he'd use the Enetoi and Histri to scout ahead for him and act as additional raiding forces, and he'd use the Dalmatae as a distraction pressing on the Liburni while he burned through their islands.
Now Linos, he'd use the Enetoi and Histri to raid with his own parties as more of an irritant to press the Liburni to attack and shadow their approach to retaliating against Eretria, Etruscans would be used primarily to help fund the more expensive campaign and their ships would be kept in reserve, and Dalmatae would be deployed to threaten the Liburni on land and force them to engage. That's the broad strokes of it, anyway.
And no, they're not the origin of Dalmatian dogs, who emerged in the 17th century, I believe. They are the origin of the term Dalmatia, however, just as the Enetoi (Roman Veneti) are the origin of Venetia, the Ligures are the origin of Liguria, etc.
Division into smaller groups for raiding and then gathering into larger ones in order to attack towns and larger villages that needs more marines. Xanthos' plan is comprehensive in its targets, whereas Linos' plan avoids bigger villages and islands closer to the far shore. Xanthos, like Linos, would generally avoid deploying large numbers of triremes in narrower areas unless he has to, but that he has to at all is an obvious risk of the plan. The biggest risk of Linos' plan is that the Liburni just don't bite at all and you're left having to extend the campaign to another year or take the fight to them.
[X] Plan The Labyrinth Has But A Single Exit
-[X] [Selection] Restrict selection for the colonies to lotteries for landless citizens and Metics [-1 talent upkeep per turn, slower but more controlled colonial growth]. -[X] [Colonization] Keep founding new colonies centrally controlled [Better diplomatic relations with local powers, less chance of citizen-led colonization]. -[X] [League] Better to maintain a single league with a single synedrion [maintain single district of Epulian League, happier new colonies but stronger league]. -[X] [Athenai] Advise them to send the Athenians away. We cannot afford Syrakousai rallying the Sicilians against Athenai, and by extension us, to force out all non-Sicilian powers from intervention in Sicily. -[X] [Diplomacy] Gela. Gela is the symbolic and ceremonial center of Sicily and Sikeliote identity. In the past decades it has generally switched between being neutral and supporting Syrakousai. We must convince them that a balance of power is better for Sicily and Sikeliotes than one power uniting all of the rest [Success influenced by Xenoparakletor and other Sicilian choices].
-[X] [Peacekeeping] A Sicily for Sicilians is a Peaceful Sicily! What is needed is a revolution in diplomacy and an improvement in communication. Let the cities exchange diplomats, conclude sacred truces, and create a common league to keep the peace among them so that no one city should be powerful [Could delay war in Sicily indefinitely, Sicilians will pursue closer cooperation]. -[X] [Allies] The Enetoi & Histri. Merchants and fishermen, the Enetoi and Histri have a naval tradition just as the Iapodes and Liburni do, but prefer trading to piracy. The Enetoi were past friends to Eretria, and working with them will surely gain their favor as well as their light but numerous navies [If successful, better relations with the Enetoi and Histri, +200 allied warriors, +40 allied pentekontors]. -[X] [Strategos] Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia, The Wooden Wall)
Glory 5, Lawfulness 6, Friendliness 4, Courage 2, Magnificence 6, Wisdom 2
A man of much moderation, known in the past for his leadership against pirates in the Adriatic. Wealthy and kind, he has devoted much of his life to assisting the Eretrian poor rather than building great works. He is known for his preference for avoiding battle in favor of more methodical and careful tactics, but what was once assumed for cowardice has become heroism after his success in the Tarentine War.
This year's meeting of the ekklesia promises to be one of the most momentous in recent memory, and thus I would be remiss were I not to propose my own thoughts on the issues at hand.
First, regarding colonization, I believe proper planning is crucial to the establishment and success of these endeavors without squandering wealth and manpower on what amount to gifts of goods and slaves to the barbaroi who inevitably either destroy the badly constructed settlement or plunder the ruins after its collapse. Further, we want to ensure that we do not inadvertently empty our own established poleis by way of encouraging every metic dreaming of citizenship or freeman dreaming of land to rush headlong into the wilds with little more than idle fancies and what they can carry on their backs to support them. No, best to ensure that our new colonies are arranged in orderly fashion, with the necessary supplies and population carefully calculated beforehand to ensure that we must only found each colony once rather than refounding a succession of them on the bones of previous expeditions, and with the sites picked with an eye towards their future prospects for growth while not prompting immediate war with all the local barbaroi if such can be avoided. And in keeping with that goal, we should maintain the unity of the Epulian League rather than giving any implacably hostile barbaroi the false impression that they can avoid a more general war by restricting their depredations to our new colonies and thereby encouraging them to despoil at will.
On the coming great Congress at Gela, I would suggest a different tack than the one most of the prior speakers have offered. The Athenians, I fear, must be dissuaded from interfering in this matter; partly because the lesson of the Delian League suggests that once Athens involves itself in Sicily it will not stop doing so until the whole of the island becomes just another satrapy of the Athenian Empire, and partly because with the loss of Amphipolis the Athenians can ill-afford to send an expedition on any task but the reclamation of their silver mines, lest the Spartans be allowed to offset their own present martial weakness with the emptying of Athenian coffers and shortly thereafter of Athenian granaries.
For the question of which city to cleave away from the Syracusan faction, I would recommend that we attempt to sway Gela itself. Aside from the value of bringing the host of the conference to our side or at least to neutrality between ourselves and Syracuse, their position at the heart of general Sikeliote identity would grant far greater weight to what I believe should be the heart of our proposal: a general pan-Sikelian league to settle disputes between the various Sikeliote poleis and to promote common cause and general fellowship among them.
To those who say that by doing so we would merely be handing Syracuse hegemony over all of Hellenic Sikelia, I say that therein lies the genius of this proposal: it presents Syracuse with an impossible choice between abandoning its dreams of subjugating the rest of Sikelia under a single Syracusan tyrant or setting itself at odds with every other polis on the island in one final desperate attempt to fulfill its long-held ambitions. Because by the very terms of this nascent league, no one polis would be allowed primacy over any other in the eyes of men or the Gods, no matter how many talents in their treasury or hoplites upon their walls, and this is something that forever bars Syracuse from simply demanding the rest of Sikelia follow its will and having any reasonable expectation that the rest of Sikelia will listen.
As for the long-anticipated war against the Liburni, I say that we should use this not merely as the chance to launch a single punitive expedition and merely hope that by virtue of its size we might gain ourselves twenty or even thirty years of peace instead of the usual five or ten before the Liburni return to their usual habits. No, this time we should lay the foundation of a vise that will in time choke the life out of piracy in the Adriatic for good.
Thus, the establishment of both a permanent hold on the islands off the Delmatae coast and of a renewed and strengthened connection to the Enetoi and Histri, the latter hopefully to be cemented in the near future by the adoption by this ekklesia of the standing proposal for the founding of a trade colony in the great lagoon of the Enetoi homelands, which would also provide us a base in the north to complement our new-built forts in the south.
Thus too the denial of the Liburni of a rallying cry for their future generations to stoke their thirst for vengeance against us born amidst our slaughter of their people and annihilation of their homes, or of the chance for a single great battle while at their strongest by which they can still retain the belief that their defeat was merely due to the vagaries of fortune and thus have the hope that a future battle might yet grant them Nike's favor.
No, they shall simply be ground down and given no such succour for their ambition. Bit by bit, their strength shall be worn away, their opportunities reduced, their paths walled off, until they come to the end of their road and find that their only options are to march forward into their own submission or to turn back and fling themselves into a pyre of their own making. No matter the road they choose that day, however, they will have but one destination left to them: their defeat, and our victory.
Generally when a xenoparakletor is poorly suited for a given situation, that will be represented as a negative on their diplomacy roll. However, these negatives will rarely fall below -4 unless it's a spectacularly bad situation or decision. What will happen is using less die, so for example a 2d10 versus a 5d4, which significantly reduces the minimum threshold (the lowest roll on a 5d4 is a 5, while the lowest roll on a 2d10 is a 2).
Adhoc vote count started by Admiral Skippy on Jun 13, 2019 at 5:11 PM, finished with 170 posts and 37 votes.
[X] Plan Gregorios
-[X] [Selection] Restrict selection for the colonies to lotteries for landless citizens and Metics [-1 talent upkeep per turn, slower but more controlled colonial growth].
-[X] [Colonization] Keep founding new colonies centrally controlled [Better diplomatic relations with local powers, less chance of citizen-led colonization].
-[X] [League] Better to maintain a single league with a single synedrion [maintain single district of Epulian League, happier new colonies but stronger league].
-[X] [Athenai] Advise them to send the Athenians away. We cannot afford Syrakousai rallying the Sicilians against Athenai, and by extension us, to force out all non-Sicilian powers from intervention in Sicily.
-[X] [Diplomacy] Gela. Gela is the symbolic and ceremonial center of Sicily and Sikeliote identity. In the past decades it has generally switched between being neutral and supporting Syrakousai. We must convince them that a balance of power is better for Sicily and Sikeliotes than one power uniting all of the rest [Success influenced by Xenoparakletor and other Sicilian choices].
-[X] [Peacekeeping] It is time to bring all Sicily to Heel! The Sicilian natives have long controlled the interior of Sicily and been steadily pushed back. Perhaps it is time for them to be finally subjugated, to prevent the Carthaginians from supporting them and Sicilians from playing them against one another [Will delay conflict for at least a decade, Sicilians will embark on campaign against the Sicels].
-[x] [Allies] The Enetoi & Histri. Merchants and fishermen, the Enetoi and Histri have a naval tradition just as the Iapodes and Liburni do, but prefer trading to piracy. The Enetoi were past friends to Eretria, and working with them will surely gain their favor as well as their light but numerous navies [If successful, better relations with the Enetoi and Histri, +200 allied warriors, +40 allied pentekontors].
-[X] [Strategos] Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia, The Wooden Wall)
[X] Sophos and Phobos
-[X] [Selection] Open it up to any citizen or Metic willing to make the trip to the colonies and fund their voyage [-2 talent upkeep per turn, faster and uncontrolled colonial growth].
-[X] [Colonization] Keep founding new colonies centrally controlled [Better diplomatic relations with local powers, less chance of citizen-led colonization].
-[X] [League] Better to maintain a single league with a single synedrion [maintain single district of Epulian League, happier new colonies but stronger league].
-[X] [Athenai] Work with the Athenians to sway the conference. We must avoid angering the Athenians, and their added influence and talents could counteract the controversy caused by their presence.
-[X] [Diplomacy] Selinous. Selinous has been a traditionally neutral member of the Sicilian Heptarchy due to its trading interests in the west, concern about the Elymians, and its geographical distance from the major regions of Sicilian conflict. We must try and sway them away from their weak support of Syrakousai towards their traditional neutrality [Success influenced by Xenoparakletor and other Sicilian choices].
-[X] [Peacekeeping] It is time to bring all Sicily to Heel! The Sicilian natives have long controlled the interior of Sicily and been steadily pushed back. Perhaps it is time for them to be finally subjugated, to prevent the Carthaginians from supporting them and Sicilians from playing them against one another [Will delay conflict for at least a decade, Sicilians will embark on campaign against the Sicels].
-[X] [Allies] The Dalmatae. Mighty warriors, the Dalmatae are the greatest land power on the Illyrian side of the Adriatic coast. Gaining their alliance in this war may ease future tension with colonization, and will encourage them support your invasion by sea by one of their own over land [If successful, better relations with the Dalmatae, +800 allied warriors].
-[X] [Strategos] Xanthos Irenaeos (Demos Exoria, The Iron Ram)
[X] [Colonization] Keep founding new colonies centrally controlled [Better diplomatic relations with local powers, less chance of citizen-led colonization].
[X] Plan The Labyrinth Has But A Single Exit
-[X] [Selection] Restrict selection for the colonies to lotteries for landless citizens and Metics [-1 talent upkeep per turn, slower but more controlled colonial growth].
-[X] [Colonization] Keep founding new colonies centrally controlled [Better diplomatic relations with local powers, less chance of citizen-led colonization].
-[X] [League] Better to maintain a single league with a single synedrion [maintain single district of Epulian League, happier new colonies but stronger league].
-[X] [Athenai] Advise them to send the Athenians away. We cannot afford Syrakousai rallying the Sicilians against Athenai, and by extension us, to force out all non-Sicilian powers from intervention in Sicily.
-[X] [Diplomacy] Gela. Gela is the symbolic and ceremonial center of Sicily and Sikeliote identity. In the past decades it has generally switched between being neutral and supporting Syrakousai. We must convince them that a balance of power is better for Sicily and Sikeliotes than one power uniting all of the rest [Success influenced by Xenoparakletor and other Sicilian choices].
-[X] [Peacekeeping] A Sicily for Sicilians is a Peaceful Sicily! What is needed is a revolution in diplomacy and an improvement in communication. Let the cities exchange diplomats, conclude sacred truces, and create a common league to keep the peace among them so that no one city should be powerful [Could delay war in Sicily indefinitely, Sicilians will pursue closer cooperation].
-[x] [Allies] The Enetoi & Histri. Merchants and fishermen, the Enetoi and Histri have a naval tradition just as the Iapodes and Liburni do, but prefer trading to piracy. The Enetoi were past friends to Eretria, and working with them will surely gain their favor as well as their light but numerous navies [If successful, better relations with the Enetoi and Histri, +200 allied warriors, +40 allied pentekontors].
-[X] [Strategos] Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia, The Wooden Wall)
[X] Plan Theopilos
-[X] [Selection] Restrict selection for the colonies to lotteries for landless citizens and Metics [-1 talent upkeep per turn, slower but more controlled colonial growth].
-[X] [Colonization] Keep founding new colonies centrally controlled [Better diplomatic relations with local powers, less chance of citizen-led colonization].
-[X] [League] Better to maintain a single league with a single synedrion [maintain single district of Epulian League, happier new colonies but stronger league].
-[X] [Athenai] Work with the Athenians to sway the conference. We must avoid angering the Athenians, and their added influence and talents could counteract the controversy caused by their presence.
-[X] [Diplomacy] Gela. Gela is the symbolic and ceremonial center of Sicily and Sikeliote identity. In the past decades it has generally switched between being neutral and supporting Syrakousai. We must convince them that a balance of power is better for Sicily and Sikeliotes than one power uniting all of the rest [Success influenced by Xenoparakletor and other Sicilian choices].
-[X] [Peacekeeping] A Sicily for Sicilians is a Peaceful Sicily! What is needed is a revolution in diplomacy and an improvement in communication. Let the cities exchange diplomats, conclude sacred truces, and create a common league to keep the peace among them so that no one city should be powerful [Could delay war in Sicily indefinitely, Sicilians will pursue closer cooperation].
-[X] [Allies] The Dalmatae. Mighty warriors, the Dalmatae are the greatest land power on the Illyrian side of the Adriatic coast. Gaining their alliance in this war may ease future tension with colonization, and will encourage them support your invasion by sea by one of their own over land [If successful, better relations with the Dalmatae, +800 allied warriors].
-[X] [Strategos] Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia, The Wooden Wall)
[X] Plan Dareios
-[X] [Selection] Restrict selection for the colonies to lotteries for landless citizens and Metics [-1 talent upkeep per turn, slower but more controlled colonial growth].
-[X] [Colonization] Keep founding new colonies centrally controlled [Better diplomatic relations with local powers, less chance of citizen-led colonization].
-[X] [League] Better to maintain a single league with a single synedrion [maintain single district of Epulian League, happier new colonies but stronger league].
-[X] [Athenai] Work with the Athenians to sway the conference. We must avoid angering the Athenians, and their added influence and talents could counteract the controversy caused by their presence.
-[X] [Diplomacy] Gela. Gela is the symbolic and ceremonial center of Sicily and Sikeliote identity. In the past decades it has generally switched between being neutral and supporting Syrakousai. We must convince them that a balance of power is better for Sicily and Sikeliotes than one power uniting all of the rest [Success influenced by Xenoparakletor and other Sicilian choices].
-[X] [Peacekeeping] It is time to bring all Sicily to Heel! The Sicilian natives have long controlled the interior of Sicily and been steadily pushed back. Perhaps it is time for them to be finally subjugated, to prevent the Carthaginians from supporting them and Sicilians from playing them against one another [Will delay conflict for at least a decade, Sicilians will embark on campaign against the Sicels].
-[x] [Allies] The Enetoi & Histri. Merchants and fishermen, the Enetoi and Histri have a naval tradition just as the Iapodes and Liburni do, but prefer trading to piracy. The Enetoi were past friends to Eretria, and working with them will surely gain their favor as well as their light but numerous navies [If successful, better relations with the Enetoi and Histri, +200 allied warriors, +40 allied pentekontors].
-[X] [Strategos] Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia, The Wooden Wall)
[X] Artemis, Ploutos, Athene Plan
-[X] [Selection] Restrict selection for the colonies to lotteries for landless citizens and Metics [-1 talent upkeep per turn, slower but more controlled colonial growth].
-[X] [Colonization] Keep founding new colonies centrally controlled [Better diplomatic relations with local powers, less chance of citizen-led colonization].
-[X] [League] Better to maintain a single league with a single synedrion [maintain single district of Epulian League, happier new colonies but stronger league].
-[X] [Athenai] Advise them to send the Athenians away. We cannot afford Syrakousai rallying the Sicilians against Athenai, and by extension us, to force out all non-Sicilian powers from intervention in Sicily.
-[X] [Diplomacy] Gela. Gela is the symbolic and ceremonial center of Sicily and Sikeliote identity. In the past decades it has generally switched between being neutral and supporting Syrakousai. We must convince them that a balance of power is better for Sicily and Sikeliotes than one power uniting all of the rest [Success influenced by Xenoparakletor and other Sicilian choices].
-[X] [Peacekeeping] A Sicily for Sicilians is a Peaceful Sicily! What is needed is a revolution in diplomacy and an improvement in communication. Let the cities exchange diplomats, conclude sacred truces, and create a common league to keep the peace among them so that no one city should be powerful [Could delay war in Sicily indefinitely, Sicilians will pursue closer cooperation].
-[X] [Allies] The Northern Etruscans. Wealthy and powerful, an alliance made with the northern Etruscans will draw Eretria into their politics, with its advantages and disadvantages. The northern Etruscans can commit a small force of triremes and pay for part of the Eretrian expedition, considering their fight against piracy a service [If successful, better relations with Northern Etruscans, +40 talents, 5 allied triremes].
-[X] [Strategos] Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia, The Wooden Wall)
[x] [Peacekeeping] A Sicily for Sicilians is a Peaceful Sicily! What is needed is a revolution in diplomacy and an improvement in communication. Let the cities exchange diplomats, conclude sacred truces, and create a common league to keep the peace among them so that no one city should be powerful [Could delay war in Sicily indefinitely, Sicilians will pursue closer cooperation].
[x] [Allies] The Enetoi & Histri. Merchants and fishermen, the Enetoi and Histri have a naval tradition just as the Iapodes and Liburni do, but prefer trading to piracy. The Enetoi were past friends to Eretria, and working with them will surely gain their favor as well as their light but numerous navies [If successful, better relations with the Enetoi and Histri, +200 allied warriors, +40 allied pentekontors].
[X] [Selection] Restrict selection for the colonies to lotteries for landless citizens and Metics [-1 talent upkeep per turn, slower but more controlled colonial growth].
[x] [Diplomacy] Gela. Gela is the symbolic and ceremonial center of Sicily and Sikeliote identity. In the past decades it has generally switched between being neutral and supporting Syrakousai. We must convince them that a balance of power is better for Sicily and Sikeliotes than one power uniting all of the rest [Success influenced by Xenoparakletor and other Sicilian choices].
[x] [Athenai] Advise them to send the Athenians away. We cannot afford Syrakousai rallying the Sicilians against Athenai, and by extension us, to force out all non-Sicilian powers from intervention in Sicily.
[x] [League] Better to maintain a single league with a single synedrion [maintain single district of Epulian League, happier new colonies but stronger league].
[x] [Selection] Open it up to any citizen or Metic willing to make the trip to the colonies and fund their voyage [-2 talent upkeep per turn, faster and uncontrolled colonial growth].
[X] [League] Create a separate ring of the Epulian League with naval and trade obligations [New district of Epulian League with stronger Eretrian control].
[X] Plan Lasting Peace
-[X] [Selection] Open it up to any citizen or Metic willing to make the trip to the colonies and fund their voyage [-2 talent upkeep per turn, faster and uncontrolled colonial growth].
-[X] [Colonization] Keep founding new colonies centrally controlled [Better diplomatic relations with local powers, less chance of citizen-led colonization].
-[X] [League] Better to maintain a single league with a single synedrion [maintain single district of Epulian League, happier new colonies but stronger league].
-[X] [Athenai] Advise them to send the Athenians away. We cannot afford Syrakousai rallying the Sicilians against Athenai, and by extension us, to force out all non-Sicilian powers from intervention in Sicily.
-[X] [Diplomacy] Gela. Gela is the symbolic and ceremonial center of Sicily and Sikeliote identity. In the past decades it has generally switched between being neutral and supporting Syrakousai. We must convince them that a balance of power is better for Sicily and Sikeliotes than one power uniting all of the rest [Success influenced by Xenoparakletor and other Sicilian choices].
-[X] [Peacekeeping] A Sicily for Sicilians is a Peaceful Sicily! What is needed is a revolution in diplomacy and an improvement in communication. Let the cities exchange diplomats, conclude sacred truces, and create a common league to keep the peace among them so that no one city should be powerful [Could delay war in Sicily indefinitely, Sicilians will pursue closer cooperation].
-[x] [Allies] The Enetoi & Histri. Merchants and fishermen, the Enetoi and Histri have a naval tradition just as the Iapodes and Liburni do, but prefer trading to piracy. The Enetoi were past friends to Eretria, and working with them will surely gain their favor as well as their light but numerous navies [If successful, better relations with the Enetoi and Histri, +200 allied warriors, +40 allied pentekontors].
-[X] [Strategos] Xanthos Irenaeos (Demos Exoria, The Iron Ram)
Right, well, I would edit my vote so as not to vote for the utterly useless option, but it doesn't look like it'd impact the results at all anyway, so there's no point in it.
Generally when a xenoparakletor is poorly suited for a given situation, that will be represented as a negative on their diplomacy roll. However, these negatives will rarely fall below -4 unless it's a spectacularly bad situation or decision. What will happen is using less die, so for example a 2d10 versus a 5d4, which significantly reduces the minimum threshold (the lowest roll on a 5d4 is a 5, while the lowest roll on a 2d10 is a 2).
What made Obander poorly suited to deal with Thurii? If I remember correctly we only had 2d10 in that roll. Was it his stats, or simply their disapointment with the outcome of the war with Taras?
What made Obander poorly suited to deal with Thurii? If I remember correctly we only had 2d10 in that roll. Was it his stats, or simply their disapointment with the outcome of the war with Taras?
Disappointment with the outcome and the decision to ally Krotone, which I had mentioned in that vote option would make Thurii unhappy. So the risk was higher and the general difficulty of the roll was higher.
Right, well, I would edit my vote so as not to vote for the utterly useless option, but it doesn't look like it'd impact the results at all anyway, so there's no point in it.
Please remain calm. I do believe no one is saying that picking the Dalmatae is a useless option. Cavalier's point, if I understood it correctly, is that they are a suboptimal choice when taking into account the abilities of the current xenoparakletor. Being suboptimal does not mean Dalmatae is useless. The problem lies in the fact that the Dalmatae choice has a higher chance of going badly than the Enetoi.
None of the options are useless. Allying the Dalmatae if successful has several advantages, not least of which is that they're going to be interacting with you a lot in the future given if you win this war you'll be neighbors, and one of the best harbors in the Adriatic, the future site of Salona, is in their lands.
My general position is never to present a true "trap" option. Every option has some consequence, some options are riskier than others. Some options have short term costs and long term benefits, other have short term benefits and long-term costs. History rarely has "trap" options; even disastrous decisions like Athenai's expedition to Syrakousai, had a number of different decisions been taken, or a number of different events happened, could have been remembered as the beginning of their Mediterranean empire.
If any of the options leads to a disaster here it would be because of a really bad roll but that applies to all of them, and I generally set rolls up in a way where if I didn't explicitly warn players that something was risky that roll isn't going to have that risk; it'll either have modifiers put on it or it'll be a 5d4 and therefore be by definition impervious to disaster, if not to failure. Some rolls might also have multiple parts, like Obander's visit to Taras, allowing for a recovery from a bad roll.
I don't think the Dalmatae would be a disastrous choice or anything, just prone to a higher degree of risk of failure due to Obander's characteristics. And we minimize some of the disadvantages of not interacting with them here by keeping a tight rein on colonization in most of the plans.
The Enetoi though have a history of positive interaction with Eretria and are civilized traders and so are more likely to be a successful negotiation. And if we work well with them here we might gain an advantage in future negotiations over trade and colonization rights to the Venetian lagoon.
Indeed. I was just pushing back against the feeling that any option is necessarily useless; sometimes I do give options which are a little more obviously suboptimal, but I'm not a fan of it and try my best to ensure any option works and makes sense. it's part of the fun of being a QM, building choice architecture.
I agree with many of the ideas here, and believe that of all the Sicilian peacemaking options, A Sicily for Sicilians is a peaceful Sicily has the strongest chance of promoting good long term relations, whereas distracting them with a common enemy might instead simply give us a small advantage now in exchange for a stronger and more unified foe in the decades to come.
