@Cetashwayo - Would it be unusual for a Greek to have business ties to Carthage or family relations (like, a cousin married to a Carthaginian or something?)

Why do you think Greek city states are often so willing to kill and destroy other city states? They don't have any ties to them. That's the point. Polis life is deeply alienating to anyone who wants to break out of the polis. An unfortunate reality (or advantage) of the model.


[x] Plan Adriatic Focus
[x] [Selection] Open it up to any citizen or Metic willing to make the trip to the colonies and fund their voyage [-2 talent upkeep per turn, faster and uncontrolled colonial growth].
[x] [Colonization] Keep founding new colonies centrally controlled [Better diplomatic relations with local powers, less chance of citizen-led colonization].
[x] [League] Better to maintain a single league with a single synedrion [maintain single district of Epulian League, happier new colonies but stronger league].
[x] [Athenai] Advise them to send the Athenians away. We cannot afford Syrakousai rallying the Sicilians against Athenai, and by extension us, to force out all non-Sicilian powers from intervention in Sicily.
[x] [Diplomacy] Gela. Gela is the symbolic and ceremonial center of Sicily and Sikeliote identity. In the past decades it has generally switched between being neutral and supporting Syrakousai. We must convince them that a balance of power is better for Sicily and Sikeliotes than one power uniting all of the rest [Success influenced by Xenoparakletor and other Sicilian choices].
[x] [Peacekeeping] A Sicily for Sicilians is a Peaceful Sicily! What is needed is a revolution in diplomacy and an improvement in communication. Let the cities exchange diplomats, conclude sacred truces, and create a common league to keep the peace among them so that no one city should be powerful [Could delay war in Sicily indefinitely, Sicilians will pursue closer cooperation].
[x] [Allies] The Enetoi & Histri. Merchants and fishermen, the Enetoi and Histri have a naval tradition just as the Iapodes and Liburni do, but prefer trading to piracy. The Enetoi were past friends to Eretria, and working with them will surely gain their favor as well as their light but numerous navies [If successful, better relations with the Enetoi and Histri, +200 allied warriors, +40 allied pentekontors].
[x] [Strategos] Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia, The Wooden Wall)

Please make all subvotes with a dash so it doesn't count them separately.

I will say that if it wasn't for the ridiculous 3 trireme squad thing, I would be all the way behind wooden wall after kipeci and vesca's arguments. It's just the absurd division of our forces that dissuades me. It feels to me like Linos is so proud of his guerrilla war success that he's trying to repeat it here despite this conflict being an offensive war in enemy territory that he has no knowledge of, and where retreat can be cut off easily and much more completely.

You have some knowledge of the terrain, but more pertinently given the small amount of room for manuever it would be a little crazy to deploy all of the fleet at once. Three triremes manuever better than fifteen.

So please consider my plan:

Please add dashes for the subvotes so that it doesn't count those votes.

@Cetashwayo
What exactly would be the plan if we got the the assistance of either one? How would we be bringing in our own armed forces for the matter?

How do you mean?

@Cetashwayo Would approval-plan voting be an option here? I dislike normal plan voting, because it (just like first-past-the-post voting) almost always comes down to only two leading plans competing for first place. With the rest of the plans abandoned in favor of the most similar leading plan (last time that was Steel ram vs Greatest victory). In my opinion the resulting discussions are often heated and more focused on what is bad about the other plan, rather than finding compromise.

I would prefer not to muck up the tally more than it is. I can think about it in the future, though.

A few mistakes made their way into the treasury tab (although I suspect the final result is correct):
#1 The total Expenses are wrong:
If you add up everything listed under expenses you get 324.9 Talents. (Or 326.9 see #3)
#2 The final budget is then "wrong":
If you add up inital Budget + Income - corrected Expenses, you arrive at 327 Talents.
#3 It seems you calculated our Expenses 2 talents higher than shown in the update:
I suspect you simply forgot to bumb Salaries & Subsidies to 22.0 Talents due to the calendar reform.

Amazing update as always!

Yeah, this is just an artifact of me changing the numbers after I had already written down the turn budget. Fixed.
 
Holy cow is the tally for this vote borked. Shouldn't plan votes all be formatted:

[Ex] Plan Name
-[Ex] [Task1] Subvote A

For the initial plan creator, then:

[Ex] Plan Name

For all following votes on the plan? As a new and fairly casual voter, this is super challenging to grapple with even though I would like to vote.

Yes, I agree. But plan votes are not used often in this quest and I am not as familiar with them, so this is my bad.
 
"Three triremes may maneuver in a strait that would choke ten. And our fathers and their fathers saw what three triremes might do to fifty, if they have room to gather speed. So the smaller detachments of forces argued for by Epiktetos is a source of security, not danger. And if those triremes have local allies to help guide them they will be all the more effective.

Further one should consider the Liburni themselves. They could and would confidently join together against one overwhelming fleet and could lay one ambush. But six smaller threats? To concentrate on one squadron would leave five villages undefended. Would the barbaroi of one village leave their wives and children at our mercy so as to protect a distant village instead? I think it unlikely. Every village will seek it's own security as we strike them, and may soon enough forswear piracy to stay our fury."
 
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Why do you think Greek city states are often so willing to kill and destroy other city states? They don't have any ties to them. That's the point. Polis life is deeply alienating to anyone who wants to break out of the polis. An unfortunate reality (or advantage) of the model.
Transportation would seem to be a bitch. Good enough to trade or fight wars over, but most people with the resources to access it won't want to move and settle elsewhere
 
Transportation would seem to be a bitch. Good enough to trade or fight wars over, but most people with the resources to access it won't want to move and settle elsewhere

While this is true, citizenship limitations were devised specifically as a way to prevent the development of a cross-city aristocracy with more loyalty to family in other poleis than their own.
 
"Three triremes may maneuver in a strait that would choke ten. And our fathers and their fathers saw what three triremes might do to fifty, if they have room to gather speed. So the smaller detachments of forces argued for by Epiktetos is a source of security, not danger. And if those triremes have local allies to help guide them they will be all the more effective.

Further one should consider the Liburni themselves. They could and would confidently join together against one overwhelming fleet and could lay one ambush. But six smaller threats? To concentrate on one squadron would leave five villages undefended. Would the barbaroi of one village leave their wives and children at our mercy so as to protect a distant village instead? I think it unlikely. Every village will seek it's own security as we strike them, and may soon enough forswear piracy to stay our fury."
"Ah, Phokion, would they not be even more easily dissuaded from their piratical ways if they were gravely threatened on land by the Dalmatae?"
 
[X] Plan Phokion

Phokion has the right of it. We cannot approach any of these issues without due deliberation, for each of them could change the entire fate of our fair city as we know it. Each of these decisions as we make them should not be made on their individual merits alone, but instead as part of a greater conceived grand strategy. Thus I would like to toss my boulder into the ring, though I admit my turn of phrase may be be taken rather poorly when we take into account the performance of our discus throwers during the recent Olympic Games.

On the matter of colonization and our future plans regarding our colonies and their fate within the Epulian League, I feel that it is necessary to point out to all, now and in the future, that Eretria is not like Sparta or Athens. Rather than yoke the Epulian League and any future colonies we found within it to our designs, like Athenai does with the Delian League, or Lacadaemon does with the Peloponnesian League, our Epulian League will be one of common cause and friendship, where the League follows our will not because we hold a sword of Damocles hanging over their head, but because they firmly believe it is in their best interests to support us. Were this not true, would we have truly given the League the veto they so desired alongside all of those reforms when war with Taras was on the horizon? I say nay. Thus, while his plan leads to slower colonial growth, and less courageous endeavors in founding these new colonies, in the end I view that the long term impacts of a more united and prosperous League of Allies beats that of simmer hostility.

When it comes to the matter of dealing with the Liburni and their pirates plaguing the Adriatic, I feel that caution and moderation is merited. We are charging headfirst into unknown enemy territory, where our foes know the water and inlets like the back of their hands. The initiative is not our side here, and if we are too rash in our decision, it could cost us dearly against such savage foes. Some could argue that the decisive plan favored by our talented naval strategoi Xanthos Irenaeos is a bold one that could crush the Liburni swiftly and decisively, thus ending the threat of piracy to the region by rooting it out by root and branch. I would counter this by saying it would be folly to embark on such an endeavor that requires too many variables to go our way in order to secure victory. After all, while our rowers and marines are indeed skilled, on par with those say of even Athenai, even they however cannot defeat a foe who has thoroughly outmaneuvered and outnumbers them locally. Furthermore, one should remember that if we wish to assault their strategic port of Iadar, a fortified settlement with a dedicated fleet, our only choice there would be to move as one decisive and concentrated force, one our foes could easily see coming and counter with their local knowledge of the reason. Within narrow straits, even our skilled and vast fleet will lose its strength when confronted by the foe, as shown in famous battles such as Salamis.

That is why I believe that Epiktetos Linos has the right of it. By entrenching ourselves within the region, harassing them on land and sea with our superior warriors and sailors, we will force the Liburnians to confront us or die the death by a thousand cuts. With this plan in mind I further support the idea to approach the Enetoi and Histri. Long have the Enetoi been our friends within the region. Unlike the Etruscans any friendship built with them will not be mercurial and mercantile, this endeavor not being seen as a transaction but a coalition in service to a greater joint cause. Unlike the Dalmatae, the Enetoi and Histri are not complete barbaroi, whose sensibilities would not appreciate wise Obander's metaphors and wordplay. If we wish to approach an ally, and if an ally is to be a key part of that plan, we must make sure we pick carefully among those who we believe we can court, and I believe the Enetoi and Histri to be hellenized enough to understand his cogent arguments. Thus with them in tow, we will not only gained 200 more men to assist us on land, but more importantly more light and numerous ships that can act as our screens and guide us through the treacherous straits of our foes. By dividing our forces into small raiding teams, we can force the Liburni to abandon their greatest strength, their numbers and ability to concentrate force at will, and instead force them to try to defend everything, while also defending nothing. For even if they are able to manage a defense, with their numbers weakened and the ground one of our choosing we can then defeat them in detail. Thus with this dilemma set they will be forced to either face us decisively or be nibbled away into defeat.

On the matter of Sicily, while I am galled that we have been forced into this position by Syrakousai, it is too late to change the past. I must admit that I am leery of the proceedings now that Athenai has decided to throw their hat into the fray. However if we are to break the matter down rationally into the likely and unlikely consequences of our decision, here is my view. If we try and succeed in expelling Athenai from the Congress, while we may succeed in preventing Syrakousai from rallying the other Sicilians against Athenai for being a powerful outsider, we also will surely earn the ire of Athenai's displeasure and attention should we do so, while also not guaranteeing that Syrakousai will not attempt to rally the Sicilian Hellenes against us as another powerful outsider. However if we support Athenai and allow them to have their say here, I believe that we are well poised to tip the balance enough in our favor for now. While it is true that Athenai acting here would likely sour the Sicilians to any future outside powers intervening on the island, Syrakousai could likely use the same argument against us, with or without Athenai. On the other hand, we know Athenai if given the chance here will spend both its influence as well as it's coin in an effort to curb Syrakousai to our benefit. While ideology and pathos may cause some of the cities to see Athenai's intervention in a negative light, the coin and the threat of direct Athenian military action is more than enough I believe to cow those pragmatic enough to see the potential outcomes of this. As while Athenai is distracted now, none could call her weak or feeble.

With the Athenians, we would be well poised to convince long neutral Selinous to stay neutral instead of supporting Syrakousai. After all, heaps of Athenian silver are as good as any to the trading city, and a small price to pay for discarding ideological concerns. After all they gain nothing from us and Athenai if they choose to support Syrakousai, potentially getting entangled in a costly war, while supporting us allows them to gain wealth and potentially avoid war altogether. All of that combined should ensure that Sicily remains as balanced, as all things should be, for now.

In the future however, I agree that the balance will likely not be maintained, however if we are to seriously entertain a disruption of the region, I believe that our only choice here is the Sikels. While Carthage may be occupied now, I do not believe even a united Sicily could weather a vengeful campaign from them, and even if they did, I do not doubt that Syrakousai will come out all the better for it. Instead of uniting the Sicilian Hellenes against Carthage, which could lead to eventual unity under Syrakousai, we are better able to focus their energies on the interior Sikels. With the barbaroi tamed our allies in the Sikelliote League will be better positioned and with more wealth to take on Syrakousai once more. As the barbaroi are simply a mere nuisance, any campaign here would need to rely on Syrakousai to succeed for our fellow poleis are well positioned to succeed in time.

Thus, I support Phokion's plan.

So speaks Alkaios son of Kleitos
 
How would the choices of allies alter the plan? How much time would it take to for the Dalmatae to get in position? Are they the origin of Dalmatian dogs? :p

You have some knowledge of the terrain, but more pertinently given the small amount of room for manuever it would be a little crazy to deploy all of the fleet at once. Three triremes manuever better than fifteen.
Then how does Xanthod plan to do it?
 
Concerning the Conference:
Dealing with the Athenians is a risky business. I think we are better if we leave them out of this, they can't really be mad at us, we are still shipping grain to them, and we are a democratic bastion more-or-less on the same platform as them.

The choice of a partner is a more complicated matter. Selinous is tempting, but can lead to potential conflict with Carthage. They are a silent, neutral power on the island and if we manage to gain a symbolic success for our side, they might lose interest in helping Syrakousai. Gela, on the other hand, if we can turn them away from our enemy, we can open a new front in the back of Syrakousai Coalition, at least broke their hegemony over the southern half of the island. Gela is a cultural centre and a symbolic city. I think they can tip the balance in our friends favour.

Inciting a war on the island can be a risky move. As we are allies of a couple of powers, we may have to use our forces there and we can't fight in Sicily and pacify the Adria at the same time. If the cities are bogged down in a conflict with the locals, that can easily turn into a war over spoils for example and a non-stop guerrilla war inside the island will destabilize the situation even more. War with Carthage is risky. Not just we are on acceptable terms with them, so provoking a war won't be the most honourable act but they are probably richer and so more dangerous than before. They are preoccupied for now, that's true but they will retaliate sooner or later and that will be a bigger trouble than we want. Let the Siceliotes argue between themselves a peace. That will take the "innocent victim" card out of Syrakousai's hand and left them with the choice to deal with the league without war or attack and alienate the neutral powers on the island.

So I think if we manage to close the door before Athenai, gain a symbolic supporter for our plan and cool down the war fervor on the island, we are on a right track. And the Artemis, Ploutos, Athene plans aim at this. So Citizens, please consider!
 
I did a manual tally, and Phokion is in the lead by quite a bit. It's got 13 votes compared to second place, which is a three-way tie with 3 plans with 3 votes apiece.

I also did a breakdown of things the various plans are voting for. Note, at the time of writing there are currently 9 plans. Actually, there's a tenth, but it didn't have any votes so I didn't count it.
Plan Name Phokion Phobos Adriatic Focus Sophos and Phobos Artemis Ploutos Athene Gregorios Theopilos Dareios One Exit Labyrinth
Colony 1 Restricted Restricted Open Open Restricted Restricted Restricted Restricted Restricted
Colony 2 Central Control Central Control Central Control Central Control Central Control Central Control Central Control Central Control Central Control
Colony 3 Single League Single League Single League Single League Single League Single League Single League Single League Single League
Congress 1 Work With Work With Send Away Work With Send Away Send Away Work With Work With Send Away
Congress 2 Selinous Selinous Gela Selinous Gela Gela Gela Gela Gela
Congress 3 Fight Sicels Fight Sicels Sicily for Sicilians Fight Sicels Sicily for Sicilians Fight Sicels Sicily for Sicilians Fight Sicels Sicily For Sicilians
Illyria 1 Enetoi Enetoi Enetoi Dalmatae Etruscans Enetoi Dalmatae Enetoi Enetoi
Illyria 2 Wooden Wall Iron Ram Wooden Wall Iron Ram Wooden Wall Wooden Wall Wooden Wall Wooden Wall Wooden Wall
Summary
Colony Issues
Issue 1: Selection - 7 plans to 2 in favor of restricted selection
Issue 2: Colonization - unanimous in favor of central control
Issue 3: League - also unanimous in favor of a single league

Congress Issues
Issue 1: Athenai - 5 to 4 in favor of working with Athenai
Issue 2: Diplomacy - 6 for Gela, the rest for Selinous
Issue 3: Peacekeeping - 5 plans are for conquest, 4 for united Sicily, none for fighting Carthage

Illyrian Issues
Issue 1: Allies - 6 are for the Enetoi, 2 for the Dalamatae, and 1 for the Etruscans
Issue 2: Strategos - 7 favor the Wall compared to 2 for the Ram.

Edit: Corrected a lot of stuff in the breakdown and in the summary.
Edit 2: Edited table and adjusted summary numbers for plan number 9(10): The Labyrinth Has But A Single Exit
 
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I also did a breakdown of things the various plans are voting for
Thanks for the breakdown! A mistake: the Artemis, Ploutos Athene plan and the Gregorios is switched if I'm correct. At least, my (Kleon's) plan is different :)

The lack of discussion is annoying.
I tried to propose alternatives and counterpoints, maybe not the best but something. My English is a bit rusty, so they aren't the best structured... :-(
 
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My logic for choosing Selinous is simple; we don't need their active support, just for them to retain their customary neutrality so Syracuse can't force through the ban on outside alliances. They are a mercantile city weakly and newly attached to Syracuse only by concern regarding Carthaginian strength. Thus they may be easiest to sway with Athenian silver and some hints of Athenian interest as a balance against Carthage. And Carthage in any case is overstretched and likely to commit to a long-term campaign against the Numidians after their latest defeat.

Obander is undoubtedly personally better suited to talk to Gela but having the Athenians around compromises the "Idealistic" approach. It's better overall in my thinking to be more assured of getting a reprieve in Sicily that favors our allies and keeping Athens as a dangerous friend, than to gamble on solving the problem for good right now and risk failure while spurning Athens.

Also eh working with Alkibiades will be interesting in any case.
 
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Things can easily change. Last plan vote there was a big shift from an early lead for one plan that was then overtaken by another.
 
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