@Cetashwayo I assume Obander will stop in Thurii on his way to the other Italiote cities? Will he discuss his plans with them? Both regarding Lykai and the choice of potential ally?
Also, IF we choose Krotone what would a "bad roll" look like? Would Obander simply fail to forge the alliance? Or could we even be at risk of upsetting Thurii? The option description, when compared to the Rhegion choice, makes me think that they wouldn't be upset with us for trying.
 
@Cetashwayo I assume Obander will stop in Thurii on his way to the other Italiote cities? Will he discuss his plans with them? Both regarding Lykai and the choice of potential ally?
Also, IF we choose Krotone what would a "bad roll" look like? Would Obander simply fail to forge the alliance? Or could we even be at risk of upsetting Thurii? The option description, when compared to the Rhegion choice, makes me think that they wouldn't be upset with us for trying.

How well Thurii takes the Krotone alliance option is dependent on how well Thurii takes Obander's visit in general. There will be a roll for every city along the tour.

A bad roll on Krotone will simply have the attempt fail. Obander has too much of a bonus to rolls to fail catastrophically.
 
Also, I feel that the Sikeliotes are our allies specifically against Syracuse but not to any great lengths beyond that, while Rhegion could be our ally in almost any venture, and secure us specifically naval dominance over the local region, not just against Syracuse.

Syracuse is an annoyance that we need to keep in check, but other than spending the minimum possible attention on that, we should ignore Sicily and focus on spreading (by sea!) our influence and control elsewhere. (Adriatic!)

Well, I would argue it really depends on our plans and intentions. As I stated a few times I am not the biggest fan of the alliance and especially fear that it will lead to conflicts with Carthage but it has to be said that sicily is quite a rich and prosperous region and the league could make a very powerful faction and thus if it manages to assert its dominance over it. And unlike the italian greek states like Metapontion, Krotone or even Thurii the Sikeliotes are unlikely to ever come really into conflict with us over our own expansion in the region and would probably not worry nearly as much over our "empire building" than other factions nearer to us might. It would probably woirk especially well if we foresee a more hostile approach towards the italian greeks since they are probably not powerfu/united enough to withstand pressure from two (three if include the growing barbarian threat) factions and thus could be subjugated somewhat more easily than they otherwise might. Though of course all that is depedent on them beating syracuse and staying united which is far from a given and I personally don't think it would be worth the risk of Carthage or other conflicts of that nature. But then I don't have high hopes for the whole italian league idea either and that is something people seem both interested in and willing to invest quite a bit of effort into.
 
I have so many posts to catch up on, but it'll all be worth it if I can just sway, uh, fifteen people.

"I understand why some seek an alliance with Rhegion, for one the city has already been an ally of Eretria in the past. Furthermore, our shared Ionian history would make such an alliance fit into the Ionian-Dorian conflict we see on the mainland. Rhegion's position at the Straits of Messana is a crucial one and having a power friendly to us control them would surely be a boon in both trade and war. However, I feel that some points have been overstated by those arguing in favour of Rhegion.

For one, Rhegion's naval support would mostly be a local affair. We should not expect them to readily help us with our Adriatic endeavours. If we look at the distance a trireme has to travel along the coast, for the open sea bears risk in every season, then even Korinthos is closer to Eretria than Rhegion. [OOC:Maps of the Sicillian Expedition make me think that fleets don't cross the Gulf of Taras, they hug the coastline.]

Many here seem to intend on securing Rhegion's support at the Congress of Gela. I wonder though; what is the worth of additional support, if by the same act we weaken the bond with our most important regional ally the Sikeliote League? I agree with Phokion Aristides, Rhegion will continue to oppose Syrakousai for it is in their own self interest. The polis of Rhegion has strived to hinder them, since before our arrival in these lands. So, for as long as we do not purposefully upset them, for example by allying their rival Lokris, we should be save in the knowledge that the enemy of our enemy will continue to be just that. Should war come to the Island of Sicily, the citizens of Rhegion will surely live up to their stalwart reputation and join our alliance in a coalition opposing Syrakousai once more!

Last but not least, I would also like to point out that Krotone's role is not unimportant in such a war. For just as Rhegion is likely to join us against Syrakousai, so is Lokris likely to join against us. Were we to ally Rhegion, then it would have to first enter into a lengthy conflict with Lokris before being able to focus on Sicily. Meanwhile if we ally Krotone, then it would be them and Thurii in Lokris back. In such a scenario Rhegion would be able to much more quickly shift its focus against Syrakousai."
Consider as well the vast distance between Eretria and Sicily. It is hugely expensive to march an army or row a navy to such far lands; neither is it a small endeavor to cross from the Italiote toe to Sicily. We and any non-Sicilian ally suffer a large opportunity cost for war for operating out of our local area. However, that cost is not borne by Sicilians. Take Rhegion; it's already in Sicily to start, so it can respond quicker to news of aggression and use its competent and huge (even bigger than ours) navy to transport its forces and allies as suits it, either to Lokri Epixiphyrii next door or Syrakousai down the coast- and with that naval edge, it can effectively choose wherever it would like to land, perhaps emulating our strategy of raiding far behind Syrakousai's imposing front lines with the Sikeliote League. This costs them far less than it does for say Krotone to first get word of it and then organize its men so that they can start marching a couple hundred kilometers down the toe of Italy only to bog down to cross at the straits with its more limited naval resources who have also traveled far and then start proceeding down south. That means that Rhegion is much more reliable as a force against the Syrakousai, as they are much less likely to balk at it from other concerns such as cost or being distracted by barbaroi incursions and are not nearly so spent by the voyage to get there; they can also campaign for more extended time as they can much more easily return home, and defend our valuable luxury trade with Etruria in pottery even as we send our navy on missions in other spheres such as focusing on piracy in the Adriatic.

In short, we want mostly Sicilians to fight this war. One Sicilian is going to be more effective in fighting these battles at less cost to their society than an Italiote. The best way to have Sicilians around is to throw our support behind Rhegion; this shows to the more minor and unaligned groups of Sicily who are going to be the decisive swing vote at the conference that Eretria and allies respect the small powers of Sicily and support this more to oppose Syrakousai than to create a new titan in the form of the Sikeliote League that could then oppress them. The Sikeliote League has extremely compelling reasons to deal with this scenario; for one, Rhegion is already their nominal ally, and for two, they directly neighbor Syrakousai and would be its first victim with any expansion; they are not able to be all that choosy about where or how help comes. If the conference in Gela decides the peace favorably, that could cause a direct loss to Syrakousai; recall how though we won the war with Taras, the peace actually cut down on the Eretrian side because while both Eretria and the Messapii had fought together, the Messapii were forced to give vital lands to link Taras to its dependencies.

If we join up with Krotone, on the other hand, we have don't get that extra edge of influence on the conference; Rhegion is left to worry about if maybe the balance of power is starting to change in Sicily. We gain some extra hoplites (at the cost of offending Thurii and probably getting somewhat less from them, a more major city, than we otherwise would have). If the stars align and there's no problems with the Brutii and the like, then they are fine to go down to Sicily... but late in the season, we have to go back and harvest our grain. Thurii has to go back. Krotone has to go back. The Sikeliote League gets to stay and live with the consequences of distant allies, while Syrakousai can cackle at the wisdom of having all her friends close at hand.

Go to sleep and achieve what I could not this night.

I see what you're saying about Rhegion's potential contributions. That said, I think for the time being we can still push for Krotone and trust that Rhegion will remain allied to the Skieliote League for at least this war. Next war, who knows, maybe we align with Rhegion against the Sikeliotes after the former shares Lokri's territories with Krotone.

This war is not nearly so important as the peace decided on by the conference, which Krotone has no influence in. It will be over before we have the chance to more closely befriend Rhegion, should we forfeit this opportunity now. That's why I can't content myself with a 'who knows, maybe we align with Rhegion' as if the Sikeliote League suffers a huge hit that is absorbed by Syrakousai we will have to make a great many allies just to tread water.

Looking longer term, allying with Krotone now, we have the immediate potential to mitigate the irritation it might cause Thurii via handing them a free city as a gift.
Ally with Rhegion now, and we irritate the Sikeliote League, which seems unwise going into the Sicilian Conference. Especially when they're already nominally on the same side, raising divisive issues is not a great idea.

However, since Krotone and Rhegion do not seem to be particularly at odds with one another, allying with Krotone just now, pacifying Thurii, and cultivating a friendly relationship with Rhegion in the longer term off the back of the Sicilian Conference would seem to provide us a great deal more in total.
Thurii already deserved Herakleia Lukania from its fight with us against Taras; sealing off its coastal frontier limits the group to start trouble with the commonly bordered Bruttians (IIRC they are relatively close relatives of the Lukanians) to empower themselves, and those jerks live up in less valuable mountains and hill country. I'd start having questions about if the alliance is really that worth it at that point.

Rhegion has influence in the conference at Gela; the Sikeliote League does not, except in so far as whether or not they decide to comply or deny with the word of the conference. Recall how much input Eretria and Taras had on the matter of what the Italiotes had to say; not much, except to begrudgingly comply. While individually powerful, they couldn't compare alone to the united forces against them. It may be divisive with the Sikeliote League, but so what? They can't flip to Syrakousai; that city hates them as much as it does Eretria. They must stand against it to survive, and can't do it alone. However much the Sikeliote League might not like to respect the independence of their nominal ally, there's not a thing they can reasonably do about it if they want to maintain the necessary alliance with all of us that keeps them from getting crushed. Furthermore, keeping the Sikeliote League smaller makes it less likely for Carthage to have a problem with us.
 
And finally, on the matter of allies, I propose we ally with Lokri Epixephyrii on the auspices of holding them back from making trouble with Rhegion from now on, and Obander if you are listening tell that to Rhegion's leaders as an explanation the moment you step into the city! Tell them we are allying Lokri so we can restrain Lokri from attacking Rhegion's butt! In fact, go to Rhegion first and say that to them before going to Lokri with the alliance proposal! Giving Rhegion advance warning and consulting with them about it should lessen any hard feelings on Rhegion's part!
The choice tells you that this will anger Rhegion, because they are enemies of Lokri Epixephyrii. They both want to profit at the expense of the other, so allying Lokri Epixephyrii only to tell them that we won't lift a finger to help them in Rhegion and that they should stay away is only likely to make them scorn such an alliance; simultaneously, blocking off Rhegion's ambitions of grabbing more of a toehold on Italy (they can hardly attack our ally and be allowed to get away with it) and making Syrakousai weaker and with less coalition members that are directly hostile to Rhegion makes it seem much more likely for Rhegion to be less interested in supporting the Sikeliote League at the conference. Please reconsider.

Clearly favouring Rhegion over the Sikeliotes and causing a rift amongst our own allies, going into a conference about how to approach a strong enemy, would be the kind of extremely risky gambit which might make sense if it played into an actual strategy.

There has been no real strategy of that type outlined which I have seen articulated here, just the vague idea that there might be one. Not meaning to be harsh there, but if we're causing a rift amongst our own allies against such a threatening foe, situational allies they may be, then I think we need an actual clear plan here.

I don't know what landmines @Cetashwayo has planned for the conference, but there's bound to be at least one. I would like us to be seen as a reasonable party by everyone as much as possible, going in, because that gives us the most latitude to nudge and mould the situation.

If we were planning some sort of clear gambit in terms of fermenting dissent in our own alliance, then looting the resulting car crash, I could see it. Personally it's not my preferred playstyle, but I could see that there would be a logic there. Right now, I'm struggling to see it.


This looks to be a similar model to what was pounced on us and Taras by Metapontion together with the other unaligned Italiote cities. The conference at Gela will be arbitrating between the claims of the Sikeliote League and Syracuse; however, it's not run by them but instead the other Greek states of Sicily, who will decide where they align and then hammer out a deal accordingly. To that end it's best to make the Sikeliote League appear as non-threatening to their interests as possible (by limiting avenues of their expansion except against Syrakousai) and rewards those who fall on the side of the Sikeliote League so as to make supporting it a more palatable option than giving concessions to Syrakousai. It also secures amity with the major local naval power who is essential in helping to peacefully ferry any other troops over from Italy to Sicily. We need as strong a Sicilian support at this League as we can manage or Syrakousai is going to profit at the direct expense of our biggest ally.

By biggest goal here is to diminish Syrakousai, I think this is the best route by which to do it. The Sikeliote League will not be impressed, but these interludes have shown that the Sikeliote League as it stands relies on us- and the goodwill of the rest of the Sicilians- to stand against Syrakousai. If they aren't the most enthusiastic of allies, so what? They weren't contributing troops to our other wars anyway by virtue of their imperiled position. We have no inherent desire to see them unite all of Sicily; in fact, them trying to do so would quite likely invite trouble with Carthage, who we do not want to tangle with. The biggest worry is that they'll get distant from us if they start to clearly win and gain ground against Syrakousai, but the beauty of supporting the independence of other Sicilian powers and peace by the Sicilian conferences is that we can harness their desire to not get conquered to maintain the balance of power- and at that point, Syrakousai would have to be rather impotent. In the meantime, we'll have secured valuable luxury trade to Etruria via Rhegion and their potent navy allows us the focus of more naval resources in areas that many of us have expressed a preference for, the Adriatic.


This is highly inconsistent. You speak about not "disrespecting" the Thurii (giving people cities gratis being an odd form of disrespect), whilst also wanting to disrespect our established allies the Sikeliote League by taking a stance on their dispute with Rhegion.

Rhegion is in no way opposed to us at the moment, nor are they seeking to restrict our shipping. Let us let sleeping dogs lie, and seek to bring the two parties together with us in opposition to Syracuse. In concert with an alliance with Krotone, that leaves Lokri surrounded and exposed should they try and back Syracuse.
The additional benefit of harnessing Krotone and Rhegion to our interests would be that it would almost inevitably shift the Italiote League as a whole, including Metaponiton, towards us.

The Thurii have less pressing reason to be desiring our alliance, so limiting their options is more harmful to our relationship than it is to deny the Sikeliote League. If the Sikeliote League spurns us, Syrakousai and allies are all at its doorstep and quite eager to dogpile on without the fear of incoming ships and hoplites. Thurii, however? It has been fighting Taras to gain Herakleia Lukania, but we plan to make peace with them and for them to gain it; where to go from there? You intend to ally with Krotone and partner with Metapontion, which would leave Thurii with no adjacent coastal land to expand to. The only path left would be in savage hills and mountains filled with tough barbaroi, not the coastal strips most enjoyed by Greeks. Alliances can shift quickly if the reasons for their foundation are no longer present.
Adhoc vote count started by Kipeci on Jun 7, 2019 at 9:17 PM, finished with 169 posts and 67 votes.
 
Eretria has two-parent citizenship, making it effectively only heritable by the children of citizen-citizen marriages. Also, Athenai did allow heroic Metics to become citizens.

Any metic can become a citizen if they're heroic enough, but they cannot marry into citizenship.

What about the question about metichood? Is metic status only applicable for those of Greek ethnicity, or is it also available for non-Greek hellenized people like the...Ardiaei and Egnatians of this quest? How about non-Greek non-hellenized like say...Celts?

Also, what is the chance of this succeeding? As a privilege for being allies of Eretria from the very start, we allow citizenship via marriage only, I REPEAT ONLY for Egnatian daughters who are the second eldest. And we will give that privilege to...those who have been faithful allies for at least 100 years, so the Peucetii and Messapii and the Epulian League have something to look forward to?
 
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What about the question about metichood? Is metic status only applicable for those of Greek ethnicity, or is it also available for non-Greek hellenized people like the...Ardiaei and Egnatians of this quest? How about non-Greek non-hellenized like say...Celts?

Also, what is the chance of this succeeding? As a privilege for being allies of Eretria from the very start, we allow citizenship via marriage only, I REPEAT ONLY for Egnatian daughters who are the second eldest. And we will give that privilege to...those who have been faithful allies for at least 100 years, so the Peucetii and Messapii and the Epulian League have something to look forward to?

Citizenship expansion isn't going to be a thing, especially not just being done out of the blue, especially in this era. Even Rome needed to have the Social War (in the 1st century BCE!) in order to be forced(!) to expand its franchise. Cetashwayo has answered this sort of question time and time and time again. If you think you've found some "clever" argument or loophole, you haven't, because it won't be accepted as a change to the general rule of citizenship.
 
What about the question about metichood? Is metic status only applicable for those of Greek ethnicity, or is it also available for non-Greek hellenized people like the...Ardiaei and Egnatians of this quest? How about non-Greek non-hellenized like say...Celts?

Also, what is the chance of this succeeding? As a privilege for being allies of Eretria from the very start, we allow citizenship via marriage only, I REPEAT ONLY for Egnatian daughters who are the second eldest. And we will give that privilege to...those who have been faithful allies for at least 100 years, so the Peucetii and Messapii and the Epulian League have something to look forward to?

Metic is any non-citizen resident. They can be non-Greek, though no non-Greeks are allowed to immigrate to the city. What's more likely is for a freed slave to be of a non-Greek ethnicity.

But Metic is for residents of the city, not allies. And no, you cannot allow citizenship via marriage to Egnatians.
 
Metic is any non-citizen resident. They can be non-Greek, though no non-Greeks are allowed to immigrate to the city. What's more likely is for a freed slave to be of a non-Greek ethnicity.

Oh my...

...do you see that folks?

There's potential for a scam here. Of course it requires coordination between multiple folks who trust each other but dear God entire families of non-Hellenes can scam their way into metic status in Eretria here.
 
Once again, these "clever tricks" won't work because the citizens aren't complete idiots and will notice someone is trying to pull this sort of stupid stunt.
 
Please consider the conference. If we do not win there, Syrakousai can gain massively at the expense of the Sikeliote League. Gaining hoplites from Krotone on the one hand while also losing some from Thurii becoming more disgruntled than otherwise cannot account for that imbalance; particularly as Krotone is far from Sicily, increasing the expense of foreign campaigning even as the season for it is shortened by hard travel. They must also spare some of their warriors to defend from the depradations of the Brutii, while the only hostile force Rhegion borders is Lokri, an ally of Syrakousai, so they may fully commit what men they have.

Edit: I wish terribly that I didn't have work tomorrow, this vote is extremely important and I hope I may sway the result.

My greatest concern would be that Syrakousai is not idle over the next three years. According to Obander, he only plans to directly deal with with Sicily and the Congress there in year three of his term.

Finally, in my third year I will go myself, and dispatch emissaries to, the cities of Sicily, while working with the Sikeliote League. Our aim is to blunt the aims of Syrakousai's ambitions at the Congress of Gela and prevent the intervention of powers from the east who might seek to take advantage of the situation to support Syrakousai's intentions, such as Korinthos.

Obander's first year is going to be a ground tour of the various Italian/Sicilian city-states. His second year is going to focus on forging a lasting peace with Taras. It's only in the 3rd year that we'll begin working on the Congress directly.

What I'm most worried about is the opportunity cost of not securing Krotone. If they are left nominally unaligned, I'm deeply worried that Syrakousai will reach out to them and offer an alliance with the promise of them expanding against Thurii should war come. If they do this, then Krotone and Lokri can support each other on the Italian mainland and check both Rhegion and Thurii. Krotone and Lokri don't even have to do anything and they will tie down Thurii's hoplites as well as Rhegion's. The threat that Krotone or Lokri have something to throw against Thurii and Rhegion's homes will have to be taken seriously.

Syrakousai is able to keep Lokri nominally on their side as is. Whatever strategic calculus they're promising to Lokri goes similarly to Krotone. Better, in fact. Lokri might choose to take land from Rhegion and threaten the Straits of Messina, something Syrakousai desperately wants for themselves. Krotone doesn't have anything that conflicts with Syrakousai.

With a Krotone alliance, Lokri will have their northern flank secured and thus be able to focus exclusively on Rhegion while Krotone does the exact same to Thurii. Since both Rhegion and Thurii will now be fighting on the 'home front' in Italy, they can't offer support to Sicily. Rhegion still has their navy, but that doesn't do the Sikeliote Greeks any good since Syrakousai and their allies can simply march over them. Syrakousai has something like 20,000 hoplites directly loyal to them in Sicily while the Sikeliote Greeks only have 8,000. Being able to distract Rhegion and Thurii, even if only temporarily, will mean that Syrakousai can acquire a commanding numerical advantage against the other Sicilian Greeks.

The Congress is ultimately a substitute for war. Depending on how it's resolved, it's a proxy for an actual violent conflict that could occur if the participants don't get what they want. If Syrakousai can arrange for our allies to be implicitly surrounded or distracted, then that means there is no longer a united front to oppose them. They're large enough that with just their allies it takes basically everyone to oppose them. All it would take is one distraction or a single new friend to completely change the calculus into their favour.

We've seen in the Sallantine War the advantages enjoyed by a power with greater force concentration. Taras smashed the Messapii and basically sidelined them for the entire war before we could even get involved. By the time we can get to Sicily, and Thurii/Rhegion fight free from Lokri/Krotone, the campaign season is going to be severely shortened. Plus, during that time, the Sikeliote League will be utterly ravaged by the Syrakousai League who out number them 2.5 times over. If they can ensure we're disunified in any way, they can repeatedly try to pick us apart piecemeal.

Rhegion as an ally is definitely a 'safe' choice. It doesn't bring anything new to the table, but it's also unlikely to meaningfully alienate someone. Their navy would also be sufficient alongside ours to firmly dissuade Korinth from sticking their nose into Sicily. But they don't really take any weaknesses away, either. If Korinth decides to stick their nose in, then it's either going to be against Syrakousai (which we want) or in their favour (which Rhegion must oppose). If we want to bring the fight to Korinth in the Adriatic Sea, then Rhegion is definitely our best bet, since they would normally not fight Korinth there.

Rhegion would help us greatly against Korinth, but I don't see Korinth ever turning their eyes west (they never did IRL and that's for good reason). Korinth is likely to be wrapped up in affairs in Hellas for decades. Once the current war is over, the Medes will interfere again and support someone else to keep Hellas weak and divided. They remember that when the Greeks united, they were able to oppose and throw back the Persians. Even without their interference, Sparta is not going to be magnanimous in victory; look at their Hellots and tell me there is kindness in any Spartan heart. They slaughtered the surrendered defenders of Palatia last year. Sparta will drive their former allies to rivalry and rebellion through heavy-handedness quite quickly.

What Rhegion doesn't do, unfortunately, is contribute to entrapping Syrakousai. They're already fully invested there so allying them gains nothing in that theater. Krotone, on the other hand, gets us 3,500 more hoplites who can be immediately thrown into battle against Lokri; without an alliance, does Krotone have any reason to get involved with a Syrakousai war?

With Thurii possibly getting that city they wanted from Taras, now is the time to try and sell them on this; we give them something and ask for something in return. Obander is the best diplomat we're likely to get for working with other Greeks, so his chances of success are best. Krotone and Thurii are more likely to stay our allies because we can offer them opportunities long-term to expand and are likely to actually call them into war; the chance to expand and loot are what builds alliances in this day and age. Does anyone else remember when Egnatia almost broke their alliance with us when we asked them not to go to war with us?

Sure, in the short-term, Thurri has nowhere to expand beyond that city that Taras might cede to them, but the Sallantine Peace will end eventually. Metapontion may find itself isolated over time or Taras might nurture thoughts of revenge against us and require a violent reminder of their place. Thurii will still be able to expand against them at that point. Given how Thurii will need some time to digest their current acquisition, some time for enforced peace might be ideal.

With Krotone backing up Thurii and that subsidiary city of Taras out of the way, Krotone/Thurii may be able to jam war down Metapontion's throat regardless of what they want. They will out number them that much.

Krotone is always going to be able to expand against Lokri until they bump up against Rhegion's sphere of influence. By that point, they're going to be directly under Syrakousai's baleful eye. They're going to be forcibly welded tighter to the Sikeliote Coalition because if they fall, Syrakousai is going to be taking bites out of their territory just as much as Rhegion.

Past that point, I'm not sure Thurii or Krotone could expand. They're still city-states and democracies at that. There's a sharp limit to how large they can grow due to the needs necessary in maintaining civic debates, tradition, and rule of law.

Over all, I just don't see the risk of allowing Syrakousai the chance to ally Krotone to be worth it. Getting them on-board would utterly devastate coordination among the non-Syrakousai powers. Krotone and Thurii are actually likely to be more useful in war in the longer term due to us being able to call them in against Taras, Metapontion, or the barbaroi of Magna Gracia.
 
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The Thurii have less pressing reason to be desiring our alliance, so limiting their options is more harmful to our relationship than it is to deny the Sikeliote League. If the Sikeliote League spurns us, Syrakousai and allies are all at its doorstep and quite eager to dogpile on without the fear of incoming ships and hoplites. Thurii, however? It has been fighting Taras to gain Herakleia Lukania, but we plan to make peace with them and for them to gain it; where to go from there? You intend to ally with Krotone and partner with Metapontion, which would leave Thurii with no adjacent coastal land to expand to. The only path left would be in savage hills and mountains filled with tough barbaroi, not the coastal strips most enjoyed by Greeks. Alliances can shift quickly if the reasons for their foundation are no longer present.
This is not a RTS of infinite territory blobbing.
Have you looked a the stretch of territory that gaining hegemony over Herakleia Lukania would provide Thurii with? There's plenty there to enhance the power and status of their polis, and occupy their attentions for quite some time, while demonstrating that Eretria is a generous and useful friend to have.
 
Oh my...

...do you see that folks?

There's potential for a scam here. Of course it requires coordination between multiple folks who trust each other but dear God entire families of non-Hellenes can scam their way into metic status in Eretria here.

Hermesdora, you are skirting incredibly close to treason by these musings of subverting our way of citizenship and metic status. I advise you to lay off.
 
So if Obander rolls extremly well, do we have to give him a a laurel wreath? If that naval strategos that we will send to defeat the pirates rolls extremly well, do we have to give something as well? How about the marines and the rowers, should we give them some sort of honor? What if the temple architects rolled great as well and finished it early, what should be their reward? How about the Drakonids that made our city extremely wealthy, in what way should we reward them? How about the if other proboulos and future xenopreklators wrestled with barbarian kings and gain their friendship should we name streets after them? How about the great heroes of this city like Drako and Herodon who we honor in our songs and histories, should we posthumously reward them with a gift? I agree with @Satar here... i just think doing your job well is its own reward. Anyway, let's see in the next vote

Edit: this is a great way IC to make military ribbons, medals and medals or make a wall with names of fallen heroes
 
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Hermesdora, you are skirting incredibly close to treason by these musings of subverting our way of citizenship and metic status. I advise you to lay off.

Once again, these "clever tricks" won't work because the citizens aren't complete idiots and will notice someone is trying to pull this sort of stupid stunt.

Pointing out any possible loopholes in the rules to the ekklessia for the aim of closing the loopholes before anyone uses it is bad?

Remember the attempted slave rebellion by the Peucetii in our grandparent's day? Isn't it farfetched, which is another word for stupid? And yet it was still attempted. With that event in our history, no idea is too outlandish.

Think of it this way. Is there anything bad going to happen if we close a loophole in the rules regarding metics and non-Hellenes next meeting? If no one has used the loophole before now, good for us! No future harm can happen. If someone has already did before now in secret, then no further harm is incurred by our city from this point on.

Yes, barbaroi are chomping at the bit to have an inferior status in a city that doesn't speak their language and sees them with suspicion, after being sold into slavery.

If the monetary rewards one can get by scamming your way into a second class status in a powerful city state is worth it, then yes some will try this.

And in a world were Drug Mules exist, where migrant workers in Saudi Arabia, UAE and Kuwait work in slave-like conditions and sometimes die at the petty whims of delusional houseowners, I doubt..."this" doesn't exist in the past.

My official IC position here is closing a loophole before someone goes winning a Darwin award for scamming their way into Eretrian metic status, just like drug mules in China.

If I always sound incoherent in every single post I have ever made online, I'm sorry.
 
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Remember rules are enforced by people. The Trick works if somebody popular is smuggling in a few Hellene-blooded close friends so they share their status, with a whole bunch of favor trading to get there.

Doing it on a larger scale means more people likely to notice and object.
 
I've seen a number of people arguing that we are hemming in Thuriian expansion, which I feel is only partial correct if viewed in the historical context. Thurii was founded on the ruins of old Sybaris. Sybaris was once a mighty polis, however along the coast its expansion was much constraint by the presence of Krotone and Siris (now the location of Herakleia Lukiania). The Sybarites then decided found a series of colonies on the Tyrrhenian Sea. Should we succeed in coming to an accord with Taras on the matter of Lykai, then Thurii will reign over a longer stretch of coastal lands than Old Sybaris ever did. There is also still a small buffer between Krotone and Thurii, in the form of Sybaris on the Traeais. They represent a potential bargaining chip in our effort to console these two mighty poleis with each other.

Furthermore, just like Sybaris founded Laos, Skidros and Poseidonia to its northwest, Thurii also strives for an connection to the wealthy trade networks of the Tyrrhenian Sea. To achieve this, one of their goals is the destruction or subjugation of the recently migrated Bruttii tribe. This is a powerful Oscan tribe, with many close kin among the Lucanians to the north. They will not be as easily beaten as the Iapygians. To have any chance of pushing back the Barbaroi threat and establish safe overland passage to the cities on the western coast Thurii will need more regional support. Krotone is the city that has both the greatest capability and interest to strike against this threat.
 
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[X] [Cattle] Grant Artahias authority over the annual cattle drive [+1% tariff efficiency].
[X] [Italy] Rhegion. The gateway to the Tyrrhenian Sea, Rhegion occupies the critical juncture of the Straits of Messina. Gaining their allegiance would secure Eretria's trade routes to the Etruscans, but cause difficulties with the Sikeliote League, who while their nominal allies envy Rhegion's control of the strait [-10 talents, Xenoparakletor will seek out alliance with Rhegion].
[X] [Mission] Illyrian Expedition: The time has come for more than a simple pirate-hunting expedition. For years Illyrian pirates have stalked the southern islands of the Liburni and threatened Eretrian trade eastwards. It is time for Eretria to seize these islands with a full expedition and establish a colony on the island of Issa, ending the threat of piracy in the Adriatic conclusively through the establishment of a new colony in the region for merchants to call home while building allies for Eretria among the Illyrians to ensure victory [3 Month campaign led by elected strategos, 500 Ekdromoi, 18 Triremes, 72 talents naval upkeep for campaign, if successful, new land for colony on Eastern Adriatic Island of Issa].
 
My greatest concern would be that Syrakousai is not idle over the next three years. According to Obander, he only plans to directly deal with with Sicily and the Congress there in year three of his term.



Obander's first year is going to be a ground tour of the various Italian/Sicilian city-states. His second year is going to focus on forging a lasting peace with Taras. It's only in the 3rd year that we'll begin working on the Congress directly.

What I'm most worried about is the opportunity cost of not securing Krotone. If they are left nominally unaligned, I'm deeply worried that Syrakousai will reach out to them and offer an alliance with the promise of them expanding against Thurii should war come. If they do this, then Krotone and Lokri can support each other on the Italian mainland and check both Rhegion and Thurii. Krotone and Lokri don't even have to do anything and they will tie down Thurii's hoplites as well as Rhegion's. The threat that Krotone or Lokri have something to throw against Thurii and Rhegion's homes will have to be taken seriously.

Syrakousai is able to keep Lokri nominally on their side as is. Whatever strategic calculus they're promising to Lokri goes similarly to Krotone. Better, in fact. Lokri might choose to take land from Rhegion and threaten the Straits of Messina, something Syrakousai desperately wants for themselves. Krotone doesn't have anything that conflicts with Syrakousai.

With a Krotone alliance, Lokri will have their northern flank secured and thus be able to focus exclusively on Rhegion while Krotone does the exact same to Thurii. Since both Rhegion and Thurii will now be fighting on the 'home front' in Italy, they can't offer support to Sicily. Rhegion still has their navy, but that doesn't do the Sikeliote Greeks any good since Syrakousai and their allies can simply march over them. Syrakousai has something like 20,000 hoplites directly loyal to them in Sicily while the Sikeliote Greeks only have 8,000. Being able to distract Rhegion and Thurii, even if only temporarily, will mean that Syrakousai can acquire a commanding numerical advantage against the other Sicilian Greeks.

The Congress is ultimately a substitute for war. Depending on how it's resolved, it's a proxy for an actual violent conflict that could occur if the participants don't get what they want. If Syrakousai can arrange for our allies to be implicitly surrounded or distracted, then that means there is no longer a united front to oppose them. They're large enough that with just their allies it takes basically everyone to oppose them. All it would take is one distraction or a single new friend to completely change the calculus into their favour.

We've seen in the Sallantine War the advantages enjoyed by a power with greater force concentration. Taras smashed the Messapii and basically sidelined them for the entire war before we could even get involved. By the time we can get to Sicily, and Thurii/Rhegion fight free from Lokri/Krotone, the campaign season is going to be severely shortened. Plus, during that time, the Sikeliote League will be utterly ravaged by the Syrakousai League who out number them 2.5 times over. If they can ensure we're disunified in any way, they can repeatedly try to pick us apart piecemeal.

Rhegion as an ally is definitely a 'safe' choice. It doesn't bring anything new to the table, but it's also unlikely to meaningfully alienate someone. Their navy would also be sufficient alongside ours to firmly dissuade Korinth from sticking their nose into Sicily. But they don't really take any weaknesses away, either. If Korinth decides to stick their nose in, then it's either going to be against Syrakousai (which we want) or in their favour (which Rhegion must oppose). If we want to bring the fight to Korinth in the Adriatic Sea, then Rhegion is definitely our best bet, since they would normally not fight Korinth there.

Rhegion would help us greatly against Korinth, but I don't see Korinth ever turning their eyes west (they never did IRL and that's for good reason). Korinth is likely to be wrapped up in affairs in Hellas for decades. Once the current war is over, the Medes will interfere again and support someone else to keep Hellas weak and divided. They remember that when the Greeks united, they were able to oppose and throw back the Persians. Even without their interference, Sparta is not going to be magnanimous in victory; look at their Hellots and tell me there is kindness in any Spartan heart. They slaughtered the surrendered defenders of Palatia last year. Sparta will drive their former allies to rivalry and rebellion through heavy-handedness quite quickly.

What Rhegion doesn't do, unfortunately, is contribute to entrapping Syrakousai. They're already fully invested there so allying them gains nothing in that theater. Krotone, on the other hand, gets us 3,500 more hoplites who can be immediately thrown into battle against Lokri; without an alliance, does Krotone have any reason to get involved with a Syrakousai war?

With Thurii possibly getting that city they wanted from Taras, now is the time to try and sell them on this; we give them something and ask for something in return. Obander is the best diplomat we're likely to get for working with other Greeks, so his chances of success are best. Krotone and Thurii are more likely to stay our allies because we can offer them opportunities long-term to expand and are likely to actually call them into war; the chance to expand and loot are what builds alliances in this day and age. Does anyone else remember when Egnatia almost broke their alliance with us when we asked them not to go to war with us?

Sure, in the short-term, Thurri has nowhere to expand beyond that city that Taras might cede to them, but the Sallantine Peace will end eventually. Metapontion may find itself isolated over time or Taras might nurture thoughts of revenge against us and require a violent reminder of their place. Thurii will still be able to expand against them at that point. Given how Thurii will need some time to digest their current acquisition, some time for enforced peace might be ideal.

With Krotone backing up Thurii and that subsidiary city of Taras out of the way, Krotone/Thurii may be able to jam war down Metapontion's throat regardless of what they want. They will out number them that much.

Krotone is always going to be able to expand against Lokri until they bump up against Rhegion's sphere of influence. By that point, they're going to be directly under Syrakousai's baleful eye. They're going to be forcibly welded tighter to the Sikeliote Coalition because if they fall, Syrakousai is going to be taking bites out of their territory just as much as Rhegion.

Past that point, I'm not sure Thurii or Krotone could expand. They're still city-states and democracies at that. There's a sharp limit to how large they can grow due to the needs necessary in maintaining civic debates, tradition, and rule of law.

Over all, I just don't see the risk of allowing Syrakousai the chance to ally Krotone to be worth it. Getting them on-board would utterly devastate coordination among the non-Syrakousai powers. Krotone and Thurii are actually likely to be more useful in war in the longer term due to us being able to call them in against Taras, Metapontion, or the barbaroi of Magna Gracia.

You speak of Syracuse turning Krotone against us. Why not consider the opposite, what if they turn Rhegion? Offer safety and land, and gain naval dominance. All Italiote allies are now worthless! And so are we.
 
You speak of Syracuse turning Krotone against us. Why not consider the opposite, what if they turn Rhegion? Offer safety and land, and gain naval dominance. All Italiote allies are now worthless! And so are we.
Because while Krotone is currently neutral in the conflict, and thus open to be swayed to one side or the other, Rhegion is already firmly opposed to Syracuse's ambitions for hegemony. As stated here:
While somewhat united on the matter of preventing Eretria or Taras to vanquish the other, the Italiotes are divided on the matter of Sicily. Lokri is a strict Syrakousian ally, while Rhegion and Thurii favor the Sikeliote League, and the Krotone and Metapontion are neutral. Sicily does provide a situation where a power there would become so overwhelming that it'd become a matter of choosing one side or the other.
... and here:
Syrakousai has accused the Sikeliote League of funding the native Sikels and paying them to raid Syrakousai's territory, and vows that this will be addressed at the conference. It is known that the cities of Akragas and Gela are on its side, while the cities of Rhegion and Himera support the Sikeliote League. Selinous remains aloof.
The only way Syracuse could turn Rhegion this quickly, would be us upsetting them by allying Lokri.

Should war break out and Syracuse end up massively weakened in comparison to the Sikeliote League, then Rhegion might rethink its position. However, the part where Syracuse's power is significantly reduced will in my opinion not happen for a very long time.
 
[X] [Cattle] Grant Artahias authority over the annual cattle drive [+1% tariff efficiency].
[X] [Italy] Lokri Epixephyrii. Although an ally of Syrakousai and Sparta, Lokri has begun to drift apart from her former friends in recent years due to the changing alliances and diplomatic situation in Italia, including the rise of Taras and the Peloponnesian War depriving them of aid. If we could gain an ally, Syrakousai would lose its only friend in Italy, though we would anger Rhegion and Krotone [-10 talents, Xenoparakletor will seek out an alliance with Lokri].
[X] [Mission] Illyrian Expedition: The time has come for more than a simple pirate-hunting expedition. For years Illyrian pirates have stalked the southern islands of the Liburni and threatened Eretrian trade eastwards. It is time for Eretria to seize these islands with a full expedition and establish a colony on the island of Issa, ending the threat of piracy in the Adriatic conclusively through the establishment of a new colony in the region for merchants to call home while building allies for Eretria among the Illyrians to ensure victory [3 Month campaign led by elected strategos, 500 Ekdromoi, 18 Triremes, 72 talents naval upkeep for campaign, if successful, new land for colony on Eastern Adriatic Island of Issa].

Friends, while caution is wise, we must take care to not let it overcome our good senses. Artahias is a man cut from the same cloth as Harpos, and as such we should be wary, but like Harpos I believe him to be too cunning to court distruction by crossing us overtly. We can trust in his basic ill nature.

We should court Lokri to deny Syrakousai friendship. As any hoplite knows, even the mightiest man cannot stand alone. This remains true for cities as well; without allies, Syrakousai will fall.

Finally, it is long past time for the pirates to die. This measure will accomplish that, therefore it has my support.

Thus speaks Kaidos, messenger.
 
My greatest concern would be that Syrakousai is not idle over the next three years. According to Obander, he only plans to directly deal with with Sicily and the Congress there in year three of his term.



Obander's first year is going to be a ground tour of the various Italian/Sicilian city-states. His second year is going to focus on forging a lasting peace with Taras. It's only in the 3rd year that we'll begin working on the Congress directly.

What I'm most worried about is the opportunity cost of not securing Krotone. If they are left nominally unaligned, I'm deeply worried that Syrakousai will reach out to them and offer an alliance with the promise of them expanding against Thurii should war come. If they do this, then Krotone and Lokri can support each other on the Italian mainland and check both Rhegion and Thurii. Krotone and Lokri don't even have to do anything and they will tie down Thurii's hoplites as well as Rhegion's. The threat that Krotone or Lokri have something to throw against Thurii and Rhegion's homes will have to be taken seriously.

Syrakousai is able to keep Lokri nominally on their side as is. Whatever strategic calculus they're promising to Lokri goes similarly to Krotone. Better, in fact. Lokri might choose to take land from Rhegion and threaten the Straits of Messina, something Syrakousai desperately wants for themselves. Krotone doesn't have anything that conflicts with Syrakousai.

With a Krotone alliance, Lokri will have their northern flank secured and thus be able to focus exclusively on Rhegion while Krotone does the exact same to Thurii. Since both Rhegion and Thurii will now be fighting on the 'home front' in Italy, they can't offer support to Sicily. Rhegion still has their navy, but that doesn't do the Sikeliote Greeks any good since Syrakousai and their allies can simply march over them. Syrakousai has something like 20,000 hoplites directly loyal to them in Sicily while the Sikeliote Greeks only have 8,000. Being able to distract Rhegion and Thurii, even if only temporarily, will mean that Syrakousai can acquire a commanding numerical advantage against the other Sicilian Greeks.

The Congress is ultimately a substitute for war. Depending on how it's resolved, it's a proxy for an actual violent conflict that could occur if the participants don't get what they want. If Syrakousai can arrange for our allies to be implicitly surrounded or distracted, then that means there is no longer a united front to oppose them. They're large enough that with just their allies it takes basically everyone to oppose them. All it would take is one distraction or a single new friend to completely change the calculus into their favour.

We've seen in the Sallantine War the advantages enjoyed by a power with greater force concentration. Taras smashed the Messapii and basically sidelined them for the entire war before we could even get involved. By the time we can get to Sicily, and Thurii/Rhegion fight free from Lokri/Krotone, the campaign season is going to be severely shortened. Plus, during that time, the Sikeliote League will be utterly ravaged by the Syrakousai League who out number them 2.5 times over. If they can ensure we're disunified in any way, they can repeatedly try to pick us apart piecemeal.

Rhegion as an ally is definitely a 'safe' choice. It doesn't bring anything new to the table, but it's also unlikely to meaningfully alienate someone. Their navy would also be sufficient alongside ours to firmly dissuade Korinth from sticking their nose into Sicily. But they don't really take any weaknesses away, either. If Korinth decides to stick their nose in, then it's either going to be against Syrakousai (which we want) or in their favour (which Rhegion must oppose). If we want to bring the fight to Korinth in the Adriatic Sea, then Rhegion is definitely our best bet, since they would normally not fight Korinth there.

Rhegion would help us greatly against Korinth, but I don't see Korinth ever turning their eyes west (they never did IRL and that's for good reason). Korinth is likely to be wrapped up in affairs in Hellas for decades. Once the current war is over, the Medes will interfere again and support someone else to keep Hellas weak and divided. They remember that when the Greeks united, they were able to oppose and throw back the Persians. Even without their interference, Sparta is not going to be magnanimous in victory; look at their Hellots and tell me there is kindness in any Spartan heart. They slaughtered the surrendered defenders of Palatia last year. Sparta will drive their former allies to rivalry and rebellion through heavy-handedness quite quickly.

What Rhegion doesn't do, unfortunately, is contribute to entrapping Syrakousai. They're already fully invested there so allying them gains nothing in that theater. Krotone, on the other hand, gets us 3,500 more hoplites who can be immediately thrown into battle against Lokri; without an alliance, does Krotone have any reason to get involved with a Syrakousai war?

With Thurii possibly getting that city they wanted from Taras, now is the time to try and sell them on this; we give them something and ask for something in return. Obander is the best diplomat we're likely to get for working with other Greeks, so his chances of success are best. Krotone and Thurii are more likely to stay our allies because we can offer them opportunities long-term to expand and are likely to actually call them into war; the chance to expand and loot are what builds alliances in this day and age. Does anyone else remember when Egnatia almost broke their alliance with us when we asked them not to go to war with us?

Sure, in the short-term, Thurri has nowhere to expand beyond that city that Taras might cede to them, but the Sallantine Peace will end eventually. Metapontion may find itself isolated over time or Taras might nurture thoughts of revenge against us and require a violent reminder of their place. Thurii will still be able to expand against them at that point. Given how Thurii will need some time to digest their current acquisition, some time for enforced peace might be ideal.

With Krotone backing up Thurii and that subsidiary city of Taras out of the way, Krotone/Thurii may be able to jam war down Metapontion's throat regardless of what they want. They will out number them that much.

Krotone is always going to be able to expand against Lokri until they bump up against Rhegion's sphere of influence. By that point, they're going to be directly under Syrakousai's baleful eye. They're going to be forcibly welded tighter to the Sikeliote Coalition because if they fall, Syrakousai is going to be taking bites out of their territory just as much as Rhegion.

Past that point, I'm not sure Thurii or Krotone could expand. They're still city-states and democracies at that. There's a sharp limit to how large they can grow due to the needs necessary in maintaining civic debates, tradition, and rule of law.

Over all, I just don't see the risk of allowing Syrakousai the chance to ally Krotone to be worth it. Getting them on-board would utterly devastate coordination among the non-Syrakousai powers. Krotone and Thurii are actually likely to be more useful in war in the longer term due to us being able to call them in against Taras, Metapontion, or the barbaroi of Magna Gracia.


Syrakousai isn't going to be idle, for sure. They have a lot riding on their diplomatic finangling to take a good bite out of the Sikeliote League and will be doing their best to be in good shape for the conference; that's why I want us to be in the best state we can for it, as well. However, I would not be so frightened at the thought of Krotone flipping unless we ourselves tried to ally Lokri Epixephyrii and peel that poisoned fruit away from Syrakousai; that alliance with LE is a massive hindrance given their antagonism towards all of their neighbors in the area, and it seems kind of like a bad deal for Krotone. They get to deal with heavyweight Eretria and Thurii bearing down on them while Lokri Epixephyrii is fighting Rhegion and Syrakousai & its Sicilian friends are merrily chastising the Sikeliote League. One of those assignments seems substantially worse than the others. Furthermore, Syrakousai already has the distraction capability in the form of Lokri Epixephyrii in that they can be fighting Rhegion long before word can get to Thurii and especially Eretria, and any Italiote powers trying to pass down through the toe will need to deal with the LE before they can go to Sicily. In the meantime, as you say, the Sikeliote League and friends as it stands now is in trouble: the numbers excluding non-Sicilians are as follows.

Syrakousai:
Sy. on Land: 10k + 6k + 7k = 23k
Sy. at Sea: 35 + 15 + 25 = 75 (25 proficient)

Sikeliote League:
SL. on Land: 8k + 2.5k + 8.142k + 4k + 2.5k = 25.142k 13k
SL at Sea: 15 + 25 + 22 + 30 + 10 = 102 (47 proficient) 50 (25 proficient)

What this says to me is that it's most vital to shore up Sicilian relations. Krotone can help us out with some hoplites potentially (although it also introduces chances for distractions by making fighting against the Brutii more important to keep them and Thurii on good terms), but the initial damage that Syrakousai and pals are capable of is tremendous before the rest of the non-Sicilians get called, organize their militaries (which may not be the full amounts due to South Italy being a huge and dangerous place) and send them to go a few hundred kilometers of marching, fighting with LE, shipping over into Sicily and THEN being able to fight up until they need to start returning for the harvest and peace out early. That's not sustainable; we need to establish a balance of power on Sicily that can do more self-regulation, albeit nudged along by our efforts and watched carefully. If the Sikeliote League has to rely on the full bevy of foreign powers coming in to rescue it each time trouble gets started with Syrakousai, its days are numbered. I have already repeated myself quite a bit on how formally allying with Rhegion sets up a positive atmosphere for this so I won't bore you with regurgitating that spiel again; suffice to say that allying with Rhegion is worth more than just Rhegion for the tone it sets. The powers that we can sway over on the conference through this would be what are entrapping Syrakousai, not Rhegion itself.

I'm not sure why you're bringing up Korinth here. I don't think they're too likely to look west, they're having trouble enough as it is with the Peloponnesian war and maintaining their grip on Kerkyra through butchery.

Consider the perspective of the Thurii here. We just fought a war against Taras where the Thurii got absolutely nothing despite being their efforts and being on the winning side. Krotone is one of the powers responsible for snatching this status quo antebellum from the jaws of victory that cheated them of what they deserved; now we're going to come to them and say that, well, Krotone are actually our new allies! Disregard all that silly business about them repeatedly trying to destroy your city, as well as your dreams of getting an inch more of their coast- don't worry, we'll try to make peace with Taras and if they're up for it we might perhaps get you the city you felt your efforts already deserved in exchange. Between us seeking reconciliation with Taras, allying with the Krotone and Metapontion being locked up in truce for a couple decades (as well as us having that tendency to be friendly to them), we leave the Thurii only the option of facing the Brutii for the dubious reward of only a bunch of hills and mountains and looting shephards for up until the other side can be broken through to. But is Eretria prepared to start new and terrible wars with the Brutii and perhaps the Lukanii as well while all this business with Syrakousai is also going on? If we have shaped the situation where the Sikeliote League has to have about all of Italy weigh in for a chance and then it turns out that oops we're fighting the Brutii, would Syrakousai not take advantage as it exactly did when we fell to blows with Taras?

For the record, I don't see Thurii and Brutii as being all that exciting as allies precisely because it seems like they'd be useful tools primarily against Italian barbaroi or Taras which we're intending to make peace with... and as we saw, they're not even all that useful for that if Metapontion is blocking the way because of its own concerns. I'm much more interested in being a naval trading power than beating up on these feather-wearing jerks, and to that end Rhegion is great because its strong local fleet in the vicinity of the Italiote toe and Sicily can help to defend our trade over there while permitting ours to concentrate more fully on the Adriatic; I also imagine that they'd be quite willing to take advantage of the same effect to boost their own trade ties. The way I see it, Eretria already has a very impressive land sphere of influence among the barbaroi it landed against and expanding it would seem to just invite further and further off struggles against ever stronger and more hostile foes as we work our way up through Italy.

This is not a RTS of infinite territory blobbing.
Have you looked a the stretch of territory that gaining hegemony over Herakleia Lukania would provide Thurii with? There's plenty there to enhance the power and status of their polis, and occupy their attentions for quite some time, while demonstrating that Eretria is a generous and useful friend to have.

I've seen a number of people arguing that we are hemming in Thuriian expansion, which I feel is only partial correct if viewed in the historical context. Thurii was founded on the ruins of old Sybaris. Sybaris was once a mighty polis, however along the coast its expansion was much constraint by the presence of Krotone and Siris (now the location of Herakleia Lukiania). The Sybarites then decided found a series of colonies on the Tyrrhenian Sea. Should we succeed in coming to an accord with Taras on the matter of Lykai, then Thurii will reign over a longer stretch of coastal lands than Old Sybaris ever did. There is also still a small buffer between Krotone and Thurii, in the form of Sybaris on the Traeais. They represent a potential bargaining chip in our effort to console these two mighty poleis with each other.

Furthermore, just like Sybaris founded Laos, Skidros and Poseidonia to its northwest, Thurii also strives for an connection to the wealthy trade networks of the Tyrrhenian Sea. To achieve this, one of their goals is the destruction or subjugation of the recently migrated Bruttii tribe. This is a powerful Oscan tribe, with many close kin among the Lucanians to the north. They will not be as easily beaten as the Iapygians. To have any chance of pushing back the Barbaroi threat and establish safe overland passage to the cities on the western coast Thurii will need more regional support. Krotone is the city that has both the greatest capability and interest to strike against this threat.

It's very hard to be satisfied with what you have, people naturally want to improve their situation and that for their children. When states no longer have a natural reason to be allied, the relationship may fall apart remarkably quickly. The only route really left to support them if we also rope in Krotone is to encourage them to throw themselves at the brick wall of the Brutii through extremely strong warriors in relative poverty eking out a living in imposing hills and mountains. IF we were to succeed they might break through to the other side, but that's committing to a lot of time in barbaroi fighting that I really don't want to do, especially when it may distract our shiny new allies and pre-exisiting ones from the goings-on in Sicily.
 
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