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Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)

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No one should be afraid of antagonizing the Sicilian League for the very reasons @Kipeci points out. They are already badly outnumbered on land and on sea; if they spit on our generosity, then they are harming only themselves. They need our numbers and they know it.
 
I think a bigger concern might be that some of the Italiote cities might be a wee miffed at Eretria participating in an Ionian/Doric war against them during VIctory's Children.
 
Well @Kipeci you've convinced me. I am switching my vote.

[X] [Cattle] Grant Artahias authority over the annual cattle drive [+1% tariff efficiency].
[X] [Italy] Rhegion. The gateway to the Tyrrhenian Sea, Rhegion occupies the critical juncture of the Straits of Messina. Gaining their allegiance would secure Eretria's trade routes to the Etruscans, but cause difficulties with the Sikeliote League, who while their nominal allies envy Rhegion's control of the strait [-10 talents, Xenoparakletor will seek out alliance with Rhegion].
[X] [Mission] Illyrian Expedition: The time has come for more than a simple pirate-hunting expedition. For years Illyrian pirates have stalked the southern islands of the Liburni and threatened Eretrian trade eastwards. It is time for Eretria to seize these islands with a full expedition and establish a colony on the island of Issa, ending the threat of piracy in the Adriatic conclusively through the establishment of a new colony in the region for merchants to call home while building allies for Eretria among the Illyrians to ensure victory [3 Month campaign led by elected strategos, 500 Ekdromoi, 18 Triremes, 72 talents naval upkeep for campaign, if successful, new land for colony on Eastern Adriatic Island of Issa].
Adhoc vote count started by Admiral Skippy on Jun 8, 2019 at 9:33 AM, finished with 193 posts and 69 votes.
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We can't rely on historical events here. It's entirely possible that Korinth will continue to rule over Kerkyra. If that happens, we'll need Rhegion once the Peloponnese War ends.
 
@Kipeci In my opinion, and I will admit that is partially informed by real history information about this period, the Congress of Gela will end in a common peace modeled on the status-quo between the Sikeliotes and Syrakousai. In which everybody (so including Gela and Akragas) promises to unite against future aggressors. Once that common Sicilian peace is in place we will be free to direct our attention elsewhere. I would try to emulate such an result in this time line, especially since Syracuse is weaker here then it was in reality.

To make sure we get the terms we want at the Congress we must make an effort to appear as strong as possible. Here it is IMO Krotone that will help us the most. You bring up that Syracuse won't be able to ally Krotone, due to the power of Thurii and Eretria bearing down on them. This might be true, but let me go one step further: With the power of Thurii, Eretria AND Krotone bearing down on Lokri, it will not want to be the speed bump on our march to Sicily.
IF we manage to flip Krotone, everything you said about Lokri & Krotone is even more true for an isolated Lokri. This is what makes Krotone so attractive to me. Allying them means still retaining the temporary Rhegion alliance against Syracuse AND making it quite likely that Lokri will back down without a fight. This denies Syracuse their Italiote "distraction" and speeding up the rate at which we can reach Sicily.
In Short:
Krotone:
Short-term: More troops committed, less enemies in the upcoming stand-off with Syrakousai
Long-term: Aid against the Bruttii & Lucanians, securing our western flank against future Italiote coalitions.
Rhegion:
Short-term: No new troops/ships committed (already opposing Syrakousai), potentially worse relationship with Sikeliotes
Long-term: "Naval dominance", restraining Sikeliote ambitions, threat in the back of future Italiote coalitions.

I actually see the long-term benefits as roughly equal, with Rhegion maybe even edging out a small win. However, the short-term benefits of Krotone's aid are simply massively superior.

As to your last argument; that the alliance with Krotone will bring with it a new distraction in the form of the Bruttii, which Syrakousai will abuse to strike when we are otherwise occupied. You yourself said, that the end goal is to have the Sicilians keep down Syracuse by themselves. In that I completely agree with you. So, I'm confused then why you worry about us turning our attention to prepare for other serious threats (such as the Oscans). They alliance with Krotone doesn't mean we start warring with the Bruttii immediately. It only means, that should we in the decade to come choose to help Thurii in their struggles, we now have addtional 3,500 hoplites in the field.

In general, I would say both choices have their advantages and Rhegion would have been my clear second choice.
 
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The main problem with fighting the hill tribes is strategic. It is almost impossible for a state as small as Eretria or Thurii to actually conquer them; only neutralize them for a generation. This is because holding their territory requires yearly effort to slowly but surely degrade the freedom of movement of their herds and cut off the mountain passes. Rome spent years and years doing this during the Second Samnite War.

So you can defeat them in battle for long enough for them to leave you alone for a while, and you could potentially eventually do diplomacy with them, but you can't really conquer them.
 
Cetashwayo said:
The main problem with fighting the hill tribes is strategic. It is almost impossible for a state as small as Eretria or Thurii to actually conquer them; only neutralize them for a generation. This is because holding their territory requires yearly effort to slowly but surely degrade the freedom of movement of their herds and cut off the mountain passes. Rome spent years and years doing this during the Second Samnite War.

So you can defeat them in battle for long enough for them to leave you alone for a while, and you could potentially eventually do diplomacy with them, but you can't really conquer them.
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I think the Etretians have demonstrated an unmatched capacity for pacifying and subduing barbaroi, so I'm not too worried about a generational war against the Brutii or Lucani.
 
Allying with Rhegion, which sits on the other side of Italy, so that we can assert greater control in the Adriatic, is a bit of a puzzling concept to me, I have to admit.

In the medium term, the Lucanii and Brutii are likely to be a huge issue which will require a concerted approach from multiple cities just to quieten them down for a generation, as @Cetashwayo says. Our unique skills in diplomacy with barbaroi could be useful here in maybe eventually finding a lasting compromise. But we need to start building a coalition now if we want that to happen. Krotone is useful because they really lock down our relationships and alliances with all the cities in our "corner" of Italia, probably making Metapontion more inclined to want to be our friend.

Honestly, most of the arguments for Rhegion I've read here here feel like they're starting at finding the bit about the trade route appealing, then working backwards.
 
Cetashwayo said:
The main problem with fighting the hill tribes is strategic. It is almost impossible for a state as small as Eretria or Thurii to actually conquer them; only neutralize them for a generation. This is because holding their territory requires yearly effort to slowly but surely degrade the freedom of movement of their herds and cut off the mountain passes. Rome spent years and years doing this during the Second Samnite War.

So you can defeat them in battle for long enough for them to leave you alone for a while, and you could potentially eventually do diplomacy with them, but you can't really conquer them.
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Neutralizing them for a generation is fine to me.
Also while I can see this being 100% the case for the Lucanians and Samnites, wouldn't marching up the valley to Consensa and sacking it, break the Bruttii tribes?
Of course that fight would not be an easy one.
 
Spacegnom said:
Neutralizing them for a generation is fine to me.
Also while I can see this being 100% the case for the Lucanians and Samnites, wouldn't marching up the valley to Consensa and sacking it, break the Bruttii tribes?
Of course that fight would not be an easy one.
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Consentia is a hill fort and meeting place, not a real town.
 
[X] [Cattle] Grant Artahias authority over the annual cattle drive [+1% tariff efficiency].
[X] [Italy] Rhegion. The gateway to the Tyrrhenian Sea, Rhegion occupies the critical juncture of the Straits of Messina. Gaining their allegiance would secure Eretria's trade routes to the Etruscans, but cause difficulties with the Sikeliote League, who while their nominal allies envy Rhegion's control of the strait [-10 talents, Xenoparakletor will seek out alliance with Rhegion].
[X] [Mission] Illyrian Expedition: The time has come for more than a simple pirate-hunting expedition. For years Illyrian pirates have stalked the southern islands of the Liburni and threatened Eretrian trade eastwards. It is time for Eretria to seize these islands with a full expedition and establish a colony on the island of Issa, ending the threat of piracy in the Adriatic conclusively through the establishment of a new colony in the region for merchants to call home while building allies for Eretria among the Illyrians to ensure victory [3 Month campaign led by elected strategos, 500 Ekdromoi, 18 Triremes, 72 talents naval upkeep for campaign, if successful, new land for colony on Eastern Adriatic Island of Issa].
 
[X] [Cattle] Grant Artahias authority over the annual cattle drive [+1% tariff efficiency].
[X] [Italy] Krotone. Once the hegemon of the western Italiotes, Krotone's star has fallen significantly. However, they still constitute a significant force and have strong relations with the minor cities of the region. If they were to be swayed into alliance and friendship, the main challenge remaining would be to reconcile them with the ambitious Thuriians [-10 talents, Xenoparakletor will seek out alliance with Krotone].
[X] [Mission] Illyrian Expedition: The time has come for more than a simple pirate-hunting expedition. For years Illyrian pirates have stalked the southern islands of the Liburni and threatened Eretrian trade eastwards. It is time for Eretria to seize these islands with a full expedition and establish a colony on the island of Issa, ending the threat of piracy in the Adriatic conclusively through the establishment of a new colony in the region for merchants to call home while building allies for Eretria among the Illyrians to ensure victory [3 Month campaign led by elected strategos, 500 Ekdromoi, 18 Triremes, 72 talents naval upkeep for campaign, if successful, new land for colony on Eastern Adriatic Island of Issa].

I think aside from its hoplites the biggest advantage that Krotone provides is its reputation. Krotone retains considerable sway among the independent cities of Italia, and as a venerable Dorian city its inclusion in an anti-Syracusan coalition provides reassurances that we have no intent of building a purely Ionian coalition directed against Dorians in general. That could be useful in detaching Gela, for example, which at least historically was somewhat conflicted already about having to fight its friend Himera on the other side of the conflict.

Also being able to reconcile Krotone and Thurii and having relations with both may make a key difference in the Brutti expansion, which historically gutted the Italiotes. A stronger, pan-Italiote coalition also including Epulia and even in the future perhaps Taras may make a major difference in thwarting the threat posed by the native population of Italians.
 
Droman said:
I think the Etretians have demonstrated an unmatched capacity for pacifying and subduing barbaroi, so I'm not too worried about a generational war against the Brutii or Lucani.
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That's picking a fight that we won't win, at least not without several generations more to prepare. See, one of the big reasons why Eretria has been doing so phenomenally well has been that it's served as a demographic sink for Hellenes from Sicily and Hellas. If we get into that sort of horribly regular meatgrinder, immigration will flow elsewhere instead.
 
Part of the problem is that the most effective way to break those tribes isn't exactly very glorious.

That is, stealing their herds.
 
Cavalier said:
I think aside from its hoplites the biggest advantage that Krotone provides is its reputation. Krotone retains considerable sway among the independent cities of Italia, and as a venerable Dorian city its inclusion in an anti-Syracusan coalition provides reassurances that we have no intent of building a purely Ionian coalition directed against Dorians in general. That could be useful in detaching Gela, for example, which at least historically was somewhat conflicted already about having to fight its friend Himera on the other side of the conflict.
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I think this is a underrated aspect of allying Krotone, we have in the past seen Ionian vs Dorian tensions so by avoiding the appearance of caring about that (which to my knowledge we as a player base don't) and should make it easier to ally with other Dorian cities down the line.

Edit- Also interesting that the only contested decision is the alliance, cattle drive is 69 to 1 and mission is 67 to 3 while alliance was 35-24-10
Adhoc vote count started by Void Stalker on Jun 8, 2019 at 11:05 AM, finished with 207 posts and 71 votes.
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Admiral Skippy said:
But we need to start building a coalition now if we want that to happen. Krotone is useful because they really lock down our relationships and alliances with all the cities in our "corner" of Italia, probably making Metapontion more inclined to want to be our friend.
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I am pretty sure it would be far easier to organize a united effort against the Bruttii and Co once they actually really threaten the region and perhaps even defeated one or two local forces then try to establish a coalition/alliance now when the threat is still viewed as not as that serious. And there seems to me to be a significant difference between a short-term coalition against the barbarians and the sort of diplomatic ties some of us seem intent on establishing here, especially with the whole Syracuse thing mixed in.And lastly nowhere in the in-game motivation for this diplomatic visit are the barbarians even mentioned and instead the whole idea behind this diplomatic endeavor is to prevent a united coalition against us and break the existing ties between the cities so forgive me if I find your argument of a united anti-barbarian coalition somewhat dubious and very premature.

We aren't going there to build a coalition we are going there to prevent/disrupt one.
 
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The main issue with choosing anybody else then Rhegion is the balance of power at sea. According to word of god, only Eretria, Rhegion and Akragas have any profeciency at it, and the recent war with Taras pretty eloquently demonstrated how the triremes of those three polis probably stand head and shoulder above anyone else.

Now, we don't know where Akragas is gonna end up but if we can add Rhegion naval forces to our own then we can ensure that we have a good edge at sea, and that's no small thing.
 
[X] [Cattle] Grant Artahias authority over the annual cattle drive [+1% tariff efficiency].
[X] [Italy] Krotone. Once the hegemon of the western Italiotes, Krotone's star has fallen significantly. However, they still constitute a significant force and have strong relations with the minor cities of the region. If they were to be swayed into alliance and friendship, the main challenge remaining would be to reconcile them with the ambitious Thuriians [-10 talents, Xenoparakletor will seek out alliance with Krotone].
[X] [Mission] Illyrian Expedition: The time has come for more than a simple pirate-hunting expedition. For years Illyrian pirates have stalked the southern islands of the Liburni and threatened Eretrian trade eastwards. It is time for Eretria to seize these islands with a full expedition and establish a colony on the island of Issa, ending the threat of piracy in the Adriatic conclusively through the establishment of a new colony in the region for merchants to call home while building allies for Eretria among the Illyrians to ensure victory [3 Month campaign led by elected strategos, 500 Ekdromoi, 18 Triremes, 72 talents naval upkeep for campaign, if successful, new land for colony on Eastern Adriatic Island of Issa].

I changed my vote.
 
Rhegion is already a firm part of the anti-Syracusan coalition because it is in their basic interests not to let Syracuse become powerful enough to threaten their control of the Strait of Messana. The purpose of a stronger alliance with Rhegion would be closer ties even within and outside of the coalition. I'm not saying that's a bad idea, but if our most pressing need is to insure the Congress of Gela firmly boxes in Syracuse (and I believe that is the case) then Krotone can contribute more to that end.

Perhaps we could pursue closer ties to Rhegion later, especially if we have need to expand our trade routes into the Tyrrhenian Sea. But right now we don't even have firm control of the Adriatic so it's a bit premature.
 
Random Member said:
Dareios: "What do you mean 'not glorious'? Was not the first act of the god Hermes to steal the herd of Apollo?"
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I mean, if you think you can get our warriors excited about a grand campaign of sheep rustling, go for it. But given how much complaining there was about the more indirect strategy in our last war, I feel like we still aren't quite at the point where we can get Greek soldiers excited about a campaign that denies them a chance to display personal valor.

Then again, they might be more willing to do it since it would be against barbaroi instead of fellow Greeks.

Speaking of which, do we have a specific word for Hellenized/Hellenizing barbaroi like our vassals that differentiates them from true barbaroi like the hill tribes? I feel like we're at a point where we do want to start making the Peuketii, Messapii, and friendly Dauni feel like we recognize them as no longer being the same as the wild men of the uplands.
 
Vote is closed. It doesn't seem to be swaying enough to matter. Letting Artahias conduct the cattle drive, the Illyrian Expedition, and Krotone as an ally win.
 
The Sandman said:
I mean, if you think you can get our warriors excited about a grand campaign of sheep rustling, go for it. But given how much complaining there was about the more indirect strategy in our last war, I feel like we still aren't quite at the point where we can get Greek soldiers excited about a campaign that denies them a chance to display personal valor.

Then again, they might be more willing to do it since it would be against barbaroi instead of fellow Greeks.

Speaking of which, do we have a specific word for Hellenized/Hellenizing barbaroi like our vassals that differentiates them from true barbaroi like the hill tribes? I feel like we're at a point where we do want to start making the Peuketii, Messapii, and friendly Dauni feel like we recognize them as no longer being the same as the wild men of the uplands.
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I suspect that the reason there was so much complaining about our tactics in the Sallantine War is because we, the voter base, was heavily divided. Remember that, ultimately, we the voters are the army. If we vote in favour of something, that means there's general, wide-spread support for it in the polis. That's the benefit of having a democracy where half of all voters are citizen-militia making up the army. If the polis as a whole wants to do something, the army will too. Conversely, since the army basically is the polis, you don't have to worry about tyranny or coercion by the army; the army is the city so it can't coerce itself.

We still have metics that fight as part of our army, but our metics tend to be sharecroppers or tenant farmers in Eritria; they most likely fight as psioli. Ongoing cattle raids where the army literally walks off with mobile wealth are likely to appeal greatly to them. After all, skirmishers can loot more than hoplites and range further. Getting enough wealth might allow the metics to move up in social class from tenant farmer to craftsman or merchant. Alternatively, after we reform our colonial citizenship policy, a good haul from cattle rustling (as little as 1-2 captured animals) could ensure a relatively poor metic could set themselves up as a successful land-owning hoplite in their new colony. Given how the metics are already farmers, they have the skills to succeed there; they just need an injection of wealth.
 
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