That's exactly the point, yeah.
In Henrich's model, divination rituals help us take advantage of randomness because we're so bad at it, by transferring it to an external mechanism that is effectively random.
Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)
- Thread starter Cetashwayo
- Start date
- Original Alt. History
-
- Tags
- ancient greece alternate history empire builder civ quest democracy gods save us granary management hubris it's an eretrian thing. let lose the weasels of war lithocracy lithocracy is my fetish maximum hellene my big fat greek divine wedding this granary aint gonna fill itself cetash unwinnable
That's exactly the point, yeah.
In Henrich's model, divination rituals help us take advantage of randomness because we're so bad at it, by transferring it to an external mechanism that is effectively random.
That's actually pretty cool. Now I need to read it too.
- Location
- Luton Airport
That is utterly giraffe cheeseburger!!
- Location
- Central Europe
That makes me interested, if there is a story behind, what allowed Pylona to grow so disproportionately large to the rest of the league? Right now they make up almost 40% of the league's population. In the original thread these were the numbers we got: Pylona & Garnae both founded by 1.5K, Barletos founded by explicitly more than 1.5K and Sipontion's starting population was large enough to sack a weakened Dauni town.
So, all of these were either roughly similar in size to Pylona or even larger, what happened?
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
It was among oldest cities, with the best leadership, a safer situation with the entirety of Mount Garganos protecting it against the Dauni, a wealth in fishing, a convenient locations for ships to stop if they wish to try and cross the Adriatic, and some luck in pulling immigration. However, Pylona has more or less plateaued with very slow growth compared to the rest of the cities which are catching up with it.
- Location
- Vicksburg, MS
Do we know of any reasons that are limiting their growth?
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
Just a lack of arable land and better opportunities for metics elsewhere. It's still growing swiftly but at a more normal rate of about 1% per year.
- Location
- Luton Airport
Probably the same reasons they grew so fast in the first place - they've filled up the nice protected spot they're in.
well if we start making trade post and colonies we should try and get some of thoses metics to join them
Turn 6, 350 OL: An Excess of Heroes
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
Turn 6, 350 OL: An Excess of Heroes
350 OL
Neriton, Messapia
When I was a young man, little Avarthios Artahias, just a chieftan's boy, my father always told me something that I found funny: that the Iapygians have always begged for heroes, and the gods have not listened.
When the Eretrians landed upon the coast, the Peuketii sent out to their fellows and begged for aid, and rallied a vast host upon the bare road, only to be slaughtered like dogs and killed with such ferocity that the streams ran red with their blood, there was a call out for heroes.
The gods did not listen.
When the Eretrians discovered the plot against them by the Iapygian coalition and struck first, sacking cities and destroying armies as if they were a different breed of man, and when the Lucani turned against them and roasted the Peuketii in their own woods, and when cities fell one by one, there was a call out for heroes.
The gods still did not listen.
When the kings of Foetus, Arpus, and Daxtus rose one by one to lead the people, and then fell one by one, to civil war, dissension, or the javelins of their enemies, and the Peuketii submitted to the domination of their former exterminators, there was a call out for heroes.
The gods still did not listen.
And yet still, the Iapygians still call out for heroes. In the halls of Hyria, in the walled fortresses of the madman Ausculos, in the remote hills of the Peuketii uplands where some still stand tall and free from coward kings, there are many who speak of now being the perfect time to strike. The Eretrians have gotten fat and old, no longer the dangerous wolves of their youth. The villains who killed the great pillars of Iapygia have passed away, cursed forever by Artemis and Orion. The Gods say to strike true, and strike well, and end the invaders once and for all!
And all of them are fools.
The Iapygians have never lacked for those who would be heroes. Incredible imbeciles, drunk on their own hubris and unwilling to concede to such mundane realities as military inferiority or demographic weakness, are always happy to throw away the lives of their people for the sake of abstract freedom. Bloviating and chortling with glee at their imagined future successes without ever striking up a single conversation with those they consider their enemy, this breed of idiot works tirelessly to ensure for the sacred principle that if they should commit suicide it should be done in a glamorous fashion.
No, no. The Iapygians have never lacked for heroes. I would say, in fact, quite the opposite: we have had an excess of heroes, and all of them have died in astoundingly stupid ways. What we have lacked in is a bit of common sense and intellect. So it strange how the Iapygians would curse Harpos the Traitor, as they like to call him, and not think and wonder why the passed Peuketii king's realm is the most prosperous of all the Iapyges despite having the smallest land area of the three and having to pay out tribute to the Eretrians. The reason why, if they would only think, is because Harpos was no hero; he was a ruler. And that is what we need, you see. Not heroes, but rulers.
Not heroes, but rulers, who can restore the people to a place of pride and honor, even if under a foreign force. Not heroes, but rulers, who can honor the Gods not by endless wars but by the dedication of temples and the cultivation of culture. Not heroes, but rulers, who can heal their shattered and depopulated lands and see their children off from a bed, not a battlefield.
And this is what the Messapii need, at last, after all this time, all this effort, all this pain and blood and toil and suffering, the loss of land and people, the loss of culture and place, the subjugation beneath a foreign people. The Messapii need not a hero, but a ruler.
The Messapii need me.
[X] Proboulos: Theron Archippos (Demos Exoria)
[X] Xenoparakletor: Obander Eupraxis (Demos Antipatria)
[X] Xenoparakletor: Obander Eupraxis (Demos Antipatria)
Goings on from around the Mediterranean, presented by Xenoparakletor Obander Eupraxis of the Demos Antipatria
OBANDER: Citizens. The world turns, and the Gods and the city have seen fit to reward me with this most magnificent office. I am inestimably below the requirements that would truly be needed for such a position, for I am little more than a farmer, a smallholder who wishes nothing more than to get back to his fields, but public life is a matter of duty, and not choice. I dedicate this victory to the citizenry and the city that made it possible, and thank all who supported me in the final ballot. I also give thanks to my opponents and their spirited efforts, and the past xenoparakletor, Mnemnon Keylonos. Mnemnon worked tirelessly on behalf of the city and its people, gaining glory for Eretria and securing the defense of our northern frontier during our spat with the Tarentines.
I should now present the city with the itinerary of my plans, arranged by the elders and wisest men of the Demos Antipatria. In this year I will embark on a journey through the Italiote cities of Metapontion, Krotone, Rhegion, and Lokri, as well as the minor cities as far as Hyele. In the following year I will embark to Taras where I hope we will be able to negotiate a mutual ceasefire to the hatred that has embroiled our two cities. I should say now, ahead of such a decision, that I am aiming, if possible, to trade control of the city of Lykai for control of Herakleia Lukania, which will be transferred to the protection of Thurii. In this mutually agreeable way, our allies Thurii will become extremely pleased with us, the dishonor of Lykai on the city of Taras shall be removed, and Taras shall gain security in the southern Sallentine without any great concession on the part of Eretria. Finally, in my third year I will go myself, and dispatch emissaries to, the cities of Sicily, while working with the Sikeliote League. Our aim is to blunt the aims of Syrakousai's ambitions at the Congress of Gela and prevent the intervention of powers from the east who might seek to take advantage of the situation to support Syrakousai's intentions, such as Korinthos. If we are successful we could build a peace to last a hundred years in Sicily. In addition to this, as an agreement of truce between the three factions who battle over the hearts of citizens, an additional mission is now offered, to be conducted in the third year at the same time as the Congress in Sicily in order to ensure there is proper preparation, with the vote happening this year.
Now, I turn to the news around the Mediterranean.
News from Hellas! In response to the loss of Kerkyra the Athenians and their allies in the northwest of Hellas, including the Akarnanians, Ozolian Lokrians, and Amphilokians have banded together against the Aetolians, Korinthians, and Ambrakia in a war for the Ionian approaches to the mainland. Athenai has put the island of Leukas to siege, but its Aetolian campaign has suffered heavy losses among its marines. On Kerkyra the oligarchs have embarked on a terrible rampage through the citizenry, slaughtering any that they see of supporting democracy, after opening their bloody rule by a massacre of much of the reigning government. Athenai has seized the island of Kythira south of Lakonia, sure to be a springboard for further mainland invasions, and taken the town of Herakleion in Pieria from the Makedonians. Politics in Athenai is in flux; the rising politician Kleon advocates an aggressive approach and has tripled the tribute of Athenai's subject allies in order to pay for this new strategy. Plague has also broken out again in the city.
News from the west! Raiding in Campania has intensified far beyond anything that was expected. A joint Etruscan army of the Campanian cities has been defeated on the fields north of Capeva, but they believe their walls will hold against the interior raiders. The Hellenes of the coast are much disturbed, however, especially as the flocks of these shepherds graze closer to their fields each day. Carthage has won a mighty victory against some of the Sardinian tribes, seizing a section of the western coast and founding the new city of Boson there. Syrakousai has accused the Sikeliote League of funding the native Sikels and paying them to raid Syrakousai's territory, and vows that this will be addressed at the conference. It is known that the cities of Akragas and Gela are on its side, while the cities of Rhegion and Himera support the Sikeliote League. Selinous remains aloof.
News from the north! There is fighting on land between raiders from the Histri against the Iapodes, though the Iapodes have scored a victory against incursions on their lands. With the coup in Kerkyra, the southeastern Adriatic is becoming another target for Liburni pentekontors, who use their slight form and swift speed to overcome fat merchant ships. With much of Korinthos' naval assets tied up in supporting the coup or fighting the Athenians, there is precious little protection for merchant ships in this region beyond what Eretria is able to provide without a full-scale expedition. The Northern Etruscan League has agreed to assist in the fight against pirates, however, and led a successful expedition against the Liburni with the support of the Enetoi. King Sitalces of the Odryssians has expanded his territory in the west and southwest, taking the upper Styrmon which the Athenians had always had a light presence in (and accepted the intrusion), and defeated the Paeonian tribes in battle to seize their mountainous eastern territory.
Goings on from within the city, presented by Proboulos Theron Archippos of the Demos Exoria
THERON: I thank the citizens for my election, but I must speak to the general dissent that was voiced among the citizenry in the structure of government and the favor given by the citizens to the demes. Let it never be said that the demes serve for anything other than the pleasure of the citizenry, but we must also note the reason for the reforms that were made. As the city of Eretria grew in size and stature, the business of government became too much to consistently delegate to the assembly, as citizens were beginning to complain of being stolen away from their fields and work, and the subsidies provided by the assembly could not justify the amount of time spent on the assembly's discussions. And so, in conjunction, Sideros the Elder and Kallias the Wise both proposed and passed a series of reforms aiming at granting greater leeway to the boule and the xenoparakletor, as well as splitting the power so that it did not belong too much to a single man, and thus open the way to tyranny.
However, now the city is threatened by the specter of a pantomime of oligarchy, in which the wealthy and the powerful determine all through factions. I was not elected by the people to ensure the continuation of this policy, and in fact, especially given the augurs shown by the Gods through the results of the offices chosen by lot, they wish for us to have a mixed government. So be it! And so be it also that from this day forth, in addition to the missions proposed by the winning party in foreign affairs, there should also be a mission put forward by the people among the remaining six proposals. I would warn the citizens that to have much more than this would over-strain the resources of the city, drain its coffers, and lead to a fatal lack of focus in our foreign affairs.
With that in mind, let us announce the results of the elections formally:
Xenoparakletor: Obander Eupraxis (Demos Antipatria)
Lead Strategos: Only appointed in times of war.
Metic Prytanis: Timotaios Herais (Demos Antipatria).
Agoranomos: Heliodoros Damastor (Demos Drakonia).
Assembly of the Mint: Makarios Exekios (Demos Drakonia).
Chief of Public Lands: Arsenios Hermagoras (Demos Exoria).
Popular Tribunal: Korydon Morys (Demos Drakonia).
Grand Mantis: Imbrios Drimylos (Demos Exoria).
Elder Ekdromos: Alexandros Hilarion (Demos Exoria).
As one might see, the Gods have granted us with an excess of demitude, if one might use such an expression, and granted us one of the most mixed governments in living memory. In order to honor the clear message the Gods have given us, our program for the following years is thus: In this year, we will pursue the project of advancing barbarian commerce with the office we have already founded and lay down plans for the Temple of Artemis. In the following year, following discussion with the Demos Drakonia, we will put forward the colonial policy that they had proposed as part of their platform in reforming the bounds of citizenship in Eretria's colonies, though we shall need the support of the Epulian League in this endeavor in order to pass it through their synedrion. In the following year we shall also pursue the reform of the calendar in the new year. Finally, in the third year, the Hill of the Divine Marriage is sure to be complete, and we will dedicate a great celebration and festival to its completion.
Our finances in this year are in fine shape, though we do face the clear specter of deficit owing to the spending on the Hill as well as some temporary expenses such as the talents given to our agents in Hellas to recruit metics from among the people. We have, however, gained two new trade routes in the form of the steers which are being driven towards Eretrian territory by the Messapii and Dauni. In fact, we were pleased to accept tribute from none other than Avarthios Artahias this year, who brings important news to us from among the Messapii.
Finally, I remain in awe of the rhetorical ability of our ordinary citizens. This is what is meant by the citizen service, that we are so thankful to have among us so many wise and well-spoken ordinary people, where other cities monopolize brilliance in wit and thought to the wealthy and the powerful. This is what is meant by demokratia. The following citizens, regardless of which deme they spoke for, are thanked: Skantarios the Hoplite, Phokion Aristeides of the Silver Tongue, Gregorios Alexios, Zotikos the Strangely-Named, Karenos the Hoplite, Alkaios son of Kleitos, Nereos the Captain, Isigas Euplastos, Kyrillos Halophilos, Leander the Long-Speaking, Leukos Who Hates Pythagoreans, Diomedian the Terse, Hermesdora Eretriazenis who is honored by the Weasels, Kleon the First-Speaking, Heliodoros the Young, Phylakos of the Fine-Cut Ice, Arktos the Well-Argued, Kleon Son of Aristophanes who is not the Other Kleon, Methodios son of Pelagios, and all other citizens who spoke up either in short or in length. If you wish to be recognized, be sure to speak well and true, and to announce your name alongside your speech, in preference with the name of your honored father or your profession, so you may be identified!
Theopilos Theopilos is thanked for their speech, but is also asked in the future not to resent the demoi in such a way as to create his own deme in contravention of the laws of the assembly, which mandate that any deme must have kleftes to lift their stones, not weasels.
The Driver's Seat
The defeat of the Messapii by Taras, the Peace of Phaidros that officially subjugated them to Eretria and then Mnemnon's expedition confirmed the final subjugation of the Messapii to Eretria. Centuries of proud independence ended in mere decades by the combined pressure of Taras and Eretria on them. Cities had been lost or sacked many times, and the regions nearest to the Tarentine Border such as Neriton had been particularly devastated. It was thus no surprise that it was a king of Neriton, Avarthias Artahias, who rose up among those who supported putting the past rivalries and hatreds to an end and accepting the Eretrian peace deal.
There were of course, those opposed. Hyria, though with a young chief by the name of Zisomus, had a proud aristocracy of fine riders who had been the traditional hegemons among the Messapii. Though never capable of exerting total control over Messapia, they briefly had leadership of the confederacy under King Daxtus, though his reign ended in such humiliation that his entire clan had been killed. Caelia and Brention, both with opportunistic local rulers, and more wealth from trade, accepted Eretria's rulership but distrusted Artahias. His election had been secured mostly by the support of Manduria, Luipae, and Rudiae, the southern cities. And of course there was the lost son, Egnatia, which had always been separate from the Messapii Confederacy and was on its own hellenizing trajectory, a fast and stalwart ally of Eretria.
The stage was set for a battle for dominance over the Messapii which Eretria had inadverdantly wandered into through its overlordship. Immediately, tempers flared over the inauguaral cattle drive which had been initiated by the Office of Barbarian Commerce. Though the Agoranomos was a member of the Demos Drakonia, he wisely recruited Mnemnon Keylonos to help him negotiate the trade deals with the surrounding allies. The Peuketii were simple enough; the king had authority over cattle drives and ordered a general drive of the cattle herds of the nobility towards the city, with citizens of Eretria gathering to see the hundreds of head of cattle outside the walls, with some like the young Heliodoros salivating at the very thought of beef outside of festival days, only to be told off by an elder who reminded the young one that spitting or drooling on public city property was strictly forbidden by city laws. Such were the intensely strict laws of Hesperos the Lawgiver, who had written them for the city all those years ago.
The cities of Turai and Egnatia similarily both brought up their small herds to the city gates, along with some sheep to shear wool for the city's clothworkers, few as they were. However, the trouble really began with the Messapii, as it became clear that the varying cities had each brought up their own herds, with the largest herd led by Artahias himself, and a battalion of his finest horsemen, as if the cattle drive was really a parade. Artahias greeted the watching citizens before the walls and delivered a ballad in perfect Greek to the cheers of the audience, speaking of loyalty and the plenty the Messapii had delivered. The Hyrians, Caelians, and Brentionians, however, all put forth their own cattle herds and gave their own speeches in poorer and less proficient Greek, and then came, in the confusion, a cattle herd led by the people of Aoxenta, who had become partly nomadic as a result of the sacking of their city and carried with them their clothes as well as their cattle. This confusing mess frustrated the office deeply, but on the other hand there were real symbolic realities. Artahias remained king of a divided realm, and he looked to the city to decide for him, bringing up the issue to the Office and then forwarding it to the Xenoparakletor.
Eupraxis was immediately deeply skeptical of this man despite the complaints of members of both the Demos Exoria and Demos Drakonia that to keep the cattle drive decentralized would only serve to make it far more difficult to sort out individual heads of cattle, with different cities coming at different times and without any common schedule of arrival. Allowing a single man to organize the entire cattle drive may give great prestige to Artahias, it is true, but it would also make it a more effective ritual by preventing competition between the differing herds for pasturage on the way to Eretria. But Eupraxis reminded the people that they had chosen not to elevate one man among the Messapii, and that he deeply mistrusted this Artahias, despite his flowering words and fine command of Greek. Mnemnon pointed out that although Eupraxis might not trust him, Artahias had much of the same attributes as King Harpos, who despite his underhanded manner had been loyal to Eretria until his dying day.
The question was put before the assembly.
Should the city grant the king of the Messapii Confederacy the sole right to drive cattle towards the city, or keep it in the hands of the various cities?
[] [Cattle] Grant Artahias authority over the annual cattle drive [+1% tariff efficiency].
[] [Cattle] Better to keep the drive decentralized [-1% tariff efficiency].
A Tour of Italy
Among those policies most celebrated by the people that had been put forward by Eupraxis was the policy to pursue a tour of the cities of Italia in order to secure their friendship and prevent from ever again happening the coalition against Eretria formed by Metapontion. To do this it had been decided that there should be the establishment of various proxenoi in these cities. For although almost every Hellene city of consequence had a xenologos who dealt with strangers, and many cities had proxenoi from their neighbors, few had formalized this practice into something more appropriately permanent, and had given their xenologos such broad powers over policy and decision-making. This would be an important watershed moment in the development of Eretria, and one Obander sought to get right; as a youth he had been involved in Eretrian politics but withdrew over a humiliation involving a shipment of olives, and did not return for decades. When he did, he was older, wiser, and strengthened by defeat. He knew this was to be a part of his legacy.
Before he would set out, however, the xenoparakletor knew that he would have limited time among the Italiotes and that he should aim to pursue some alliance or greater advantage to Eretria than merely settling her relations with the various cities. To do this would take up part of his time, however, and he would need to spend an additional month in the city he aimed to court, and so only one could be chosen among the many he had sought to tour. Among the many cities of the region, three were picked out as potentially willing to make alliance. Metapontion, which may have been the city's first choice, was in a state of peace with Eretria and in any case was unlikely to be receptive so soon after the end of war, especially given the city was meant to reconcile with Taras in the following year, which could frighten the Metapontines and undo his work. Kymai, which may have been a fine choice a decade prior, was now paralyzed by the incursions of the interior tribes and would not be useful until they were vanquished for good. The rest of the cities of Italia were small cities, which may have been notable for one reason or another, such as a famed sanctuary or a philosophical school as in the case of Hyele, but they would not make good allies to assist Eretria in wars both big and small.
Obander's aim in pursuing this alliance was to gain greater allies than the city already had, but also to break the coalition of Italiote powers which had previously menaced Eretria by flipping one over to her and establishing permanent relations with the west. The Italiotes were already similar in political form to Eretria, with most of their constitutions reformed upon her model, proud democracies of free citizens. Now it was simply a matter of extending that poltiical commonality to the diplomatic and cultural sphere and to secure the region's amity to Eretria, so that they may no longer look on her as a threat.
The question of whom to court and gain alliance with among the Italiotes fell to the assembly.
Which of the Italiote cities would it be most prudent to seek out an alliance with?
Pick one of three.
[] [Italy] Krotone. Once the hegemon of the western Italiotes, Krotone's star has fallen significantly. However, they still constitute a significant force and have strong relations with the minor cities of the region. If they were to be swayed into alliance and friendship, the main challenge remaining would be to reconcile them with the ambitious Thuriians [-10 talents, Xenoparakletor will seek out alliance with Krotone].
[] [Italy] Rhegion. The gateway to the Tyrrhenian Sea, Rhegion occupies the critical juncture of the Straits of Messina. Gaining their allegiance would secure Eretria's trade routes to the Etruscans, but cause difficulties with the Sikeliote League, who while their nominal allies envy Rhegion's control of the strait [-10 talents, Xenoparakletor will seek out alliance with Rhegion].
[] [Italy] Lokri Epixephyrii. Although an ally of Syrakousai and Sparta, Lokri has begun to drift apart from her former friends in recent years due to the changing alliances and diplomatic situation in Italia, including the rise of Taras and the Peloponnesian War depriving them of aid. If we could gain an ally, Syrakousai would lose its only friend in Italy, though we would anger Rhegion and Krotone [-10 talents, Xenoparakletor will seek out an alliance with Lokri].
Coalitions of Chaos
Though Theron spoke kindly of the prospect of working with the other demes, the unprecedented mixing of the three factions in a single government in truth threw much turmoil on the government. Whereas previously it had been domination by Demos Drakonia, and then a power-sharing arrangement between the Demos Exoria and Demos Antipatria, the growing anger of the people at the impertinence of the demes in not deferring to their wisdom and their decisions and instead making their own made the situation that had preciously been maintained untenable. Now, at once, an election based on such indecision, where all three demes had made hard work of trying to appeal to the people and construct good policy, had ended not with one being victorious over the others but utter confusion.
Demos Drakonia, despite the issue of Kerkyra arguably losing them the election for xenoparakletor, was victorious in several minor offices, and some of its policies were individually extremely popular, such as the colonial land policy. Demos Exoria, despite losing handily in the foreign sphere, was able to flip the proboulos debate thanks to the extensive and unbidden effort Arktos Arkadios, a citizen whose endurance on the field in swaying foes and friends to support Theron Archippos shocked many, most of all Kyros Gennadios, who lost an early lead among the people in the span of only a few hours of debate before the stones were properly cast. And finally, Demos Antipatria, despite a commanding percentage of the overall vote for Proboulos and Xenoparakletor, won not a single minor office except for the re-election of their man as Metic Prytanis, a position not relevant until after the following election!
The result was a political shakeup. Immediately, Symmachos announced that he would not run against for xenoparakletor in the following election, stepping aside and taking ownership within the faction for his failed push for an intervention in Kerkyra. Epiktetos Linos, the rising star whose colonial land policy had been praised by many, re-entered the council of strategoi. Kyros Gennadios, who had been so suddenly dethroned, said he would step aside from politics until the following election to comprehend where the appeal for his opponent had come and how he could better represent the people. Finally, Mnemnon Keylonos, who had been so ungratefully pulled down to third place after achieving every single one of his foreign policy objectives, spent most of his time negotiating cattle contracts with the barbaroi.
In the meantime, there needed to be a political compromise between the three demes or the city would erupt into stasis. With the citizens clearly unhappy, and the demes disturbed by the attempt of one citizen, Theopilos, to form their own deme which was partly satirical but also a rebellion against the demes as a whole, it was dawning on the aristocracy that their ability to fully control and channel the energy of the people into a more representative form of government was breaking down. The compromise upon which Eretria had grown strong from was one between the aristocracy and the people; that the aristoctacy shall be privileged to rule in the public eye, and the people should be privileged to control them and make decisions on their conduct and ability. Now, with the compromise having swung too far to the aristocracy who had increasingly constrained the citizenry's ambitions to their narrow vision, faced the growing citizen service, a group of citizens who were, or had at one time, served in a minor office. With the system of lots Eretria used for many of its minor offices, this was a large group, composed of hundreds, who had gained better monetary resources thanks to the decent pensions and wages offered for being selected.
These citizens, who now formed the core of the opposition to such constrained demes and had enough lifters to stand on their own rocks, composed such varied personalities as Skantarios the Hoplite and Diomedion the Terse who were known for their laconic language, to Leander and his long monologues, to Phokion, Arktos Arkadios, and Sideros the Younger, who were all titans of the assembly and could sway the people through their words and wisdom. Many of them had the opportunity to serve as agoranomoi, or as members of the assembly of the mint, or as speakers in the popular tribunal, and therefore had a level of expertise and understanding that rose above the ordinary citizen, despite many of them being from more middling families than the great aristocrats. It was these men, and the women behind them who had urged them on in many cases such as the terrifying matriarch Anysia of the Drakonids who, in a well-known open secret, controlled much of the family's decision-making, who formed the new opposition to the domination of the demes.
In light of this, a major compromise was reached between the demes to balance their power, and to provide something to the people. The assembly would gain the opportunity to choose among all six of the demes' foreign missions that had not been picked, and if relevant, the ruling xenoparakletor would carry them out. Now, of course, this meant that it would be difficult to accomplish of these missions, but on the other hand, the xenoparakletor could enlist the assistance of his opponents, if he was willing to put aside his pride and his political concerns in favor of accepting his lack of competency in certain areas.
The question now fell to the assembly.
Which of the six missions of the Demes which had not been chosen in the election would the citizens embark on?
Pick one of six.
[] [Mission] Illyrian Expedition: The time has come for more than a simple pirate-hunting expedition. For years Illyrian pirates have stalked the southern islands of the Liburni and threatened Eretrian trade eastwards. It is time for Eretria to seize these islands with a full expedition and establish a colony on the island of Issa, ending the threat of piracy in the Adriatic conclusively through the establishment of a new colony in the region for merchants to call home while building allies for Eretria among the Illyrians to ensure victory [3 Month campaign led by elected strategos, 500 Ekdromoi, 18 Triremes, 72 talents naval upkeep for campaign, if successful, new land for colony on Eastern Adriatic Island of Issa].
[] [Mission] Trading Expedition: Dispatch the Xenoparakletor on a trading mission to the head of the Adriatic to convince the Enetoi to open up the Amber Road to Eretrian trade and gain a monopoly on amber exports to the rest of the Mediterranean. Through this we can new allies, but also a new trading network, with an ultimate goal of establishing a new lagoon-bound colony in the swampy marshes of the northern Adriatic from which we may receive the trade of cold Europa [Mission success dependent on Xenoparakletor. If successful, Eretria will be then be able to construct a trading colony in the Venetian lagoon and a new luxury trade route].
[] [Mission] Intervention in Kerkyra: The polis of Kerkyra, once a proud democracy in the Ionian Sea, has been overtaken by oligarchs aligned with Korinthos. If Eretria is to maintain its advantage and control of the Adriatic sea this cannot stand. With the Athenians supporting the democratic faction and also encroaching on the Ionian Sea, Eretria must sway the democrats over to its side and restore them to power in order to ensure that the Ionian sea does not become either a Korinthian or Athenian lake [Diplomatic emissaries dispatched to sway Kerkyran Democrats. If successful, military mission will embark to Kerkyra to help them regain power as an Eretrian-aligned power neutral in the war between Athenai and Korinthos].
[] [Mission] War Against the Dauni: For decades the Dauni have sat on the border of the Epulian League and menaced our allies with raids and skirmishes. Their kings have plotted against us, warred with us, and allied against us many times. Now, the time has come to pay back the debt they have bestowed upon us by destroying them once and for all. The xenoparakletor will rally the cities of Herdonia, Salapia, and whatever other cities would be willing, and back them in a rebellion that seeks to overthrow King Ausculos and end the Dauni as a threat. Whether that will be through annexing the rest of the cities or simply replacing their leadership with something more amenable to Eretria remains to be seen, but the Dauni must be made to never again threaten the city of Eretria Eskhata [War against the Dauni with attendant strategos options].
[] [Mission] Allied Reforms: The allies of Eretria fought well during the war with Taras, but they were slow to mobilize and sometimes disorganized. It is time to create a common command structure and organization of their levies so that we can call on set amounts of their men in war, rather than counting out the number of allies that we need with each war and giving them much grief in assembling the men to do so. In doing so we will tie them closer to us and make them more effective in battle [Opens up options to reform the militaries of the allies and make them more effective].
[] [Mission] Messapii Expedition: The question of the Messapii cannot wait. Too much is still to be settled among them and their internal problems resolved. The Messapii must be pulled up from their place of devastation and become strong once more, so that their strength can become our strength, their numbers can become our numbers, and their cities will become part of our dominion in truth as well as in theory. The xenoparakletor will be dispatched on a tour of the Messapii cities to gain their respect and bring them into the Eretrian fold [If successful, access to about half of the possible Messapii levy and tribute, which will recover to its full potential over time].
Note: This map is for geographic reference and does not reflect border changes between 349 OL-353 OL. The map is updated every four turns, so the next update is 353 OL (423 BCE).
When voting, please copy out vote text in its entirety in order to preserve the coherency of the vote. That includes the word with the vote brackets.
No plan votes; if you want to vote for someone else's plan in its entirety, copy and paste their votes.
No plan votes; if you want to vote for someone else's plan in its entirety, copy and paste their votes.
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- Location
- Central Europe
Damn... Demos Antipatria had some seriously bad luck. Not winning a single office when having a 50% chance for each.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
It was legit crazy.
Rat King
Izutsumi-pilled
I'm in favor of granting Artahias the authority, now that they're more firmly under our thumb.
As for allies, I'm up in the air. They all have advantages and disadvantages. One makes trouble with out allies, another makes trouble with the other two, and yet another will have issues with the Thurii.
Tough choice, really.
As for allies, I'm up in the air. They all have advantages and disadvantages. One makes trouble with out allies, another makes trouble with the other two, and yet another will have issues with the Thurii.
Tough choice, really.
- Location
- United States
Citizens, remember the lessons we learnt with the Peuketii and King Harpos. Initially, we were wary of our new subjects and tried to keep them divided, but in the end that just turned into a waste of time, and granting Harpos the power he desired turned out better for both of our peoples. Let us not make this same mistake twice.
[X] [Cattle] Grant Artahias authority over the annual cattle drive [+1% tariff efficiency].
[X] [Italy] Lokri Epixephyrii. Although an ally of Syrakousai and Sparta, Lokri has begun to drift apart from her former friends in recent years due to the changing alliances and diplomatic situation in Italia, including the rise of Taras and the Peloponnesian War depriving them of aid. If we could gain an ally, Syrakousai would lose its only friend in Italy, though we would anger Rhegion and Krotone [-10 talents, Xenoparakletor will seek out an alliance with Lokri].
[X] [Mission] Illyrian Expedition: The time has come for more than a simple pirate-hunting expedition. For years Illyrian pirates have stalked the southern islands of the Liburni and threatened Eretrian trade eastwards. It is time for Eretria to seize these islands with a full expedition and establish a colony on the island of Issa, ending the threat of piracy in the Adriatic conclusively through the establishment of a new colony in the region for merchants to call home while building allies for Eretria among the Illyrians to ensure victory [3 Month campaign led by elected strategos, 500 Ekdromoi, 18 Triremes, 72 talents naval upkeep for campaign, if successful, new land for colony on Eastern Adriatic Island of Issa].
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Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
[X] [Italy] Lokri Epixephyrii. Although an ally of Syrakousai and Sparta, Lokri has begun to drift apart from her former friends in recent years due to the changing alliances and diplomatic situation in Italia, including the rise of Taras and the Peloponnesian War depriving them of aid. If we could gain an ally, Syrakousai would lose its only friend in Italy, though we would anger Rhegion and Krotone [-10 talents, Xenoparakletor will seek out an alliance with Lokri].
[X] [Cattle] Grant Artahias authority over the annual cattle drive [+1% tariff efficiency].
[X] [Mission] Illyrian Expedition: The time has come for more than a simple pirate-hunting expedition. For years Illyrian pirates have stalked the southern islands of the Liburni and threatened Eretrian trade eastwards. It is time for Eretria to seize these islands with a full expedition and establish a colony on the island of Issa, ending the threat of piracy in the Adriatic conclusively through the establishment of a new colony in the region for merchants to call home while building allies for Eretria among the Illyrians to ensure victory [3 Month campaign led by elected strategos, 500 Ekdromoi, 18 Triremes, 72 talents naval upkeep for campaign, if successful, new land for colony on Eastern Adriatic Island of Issa].
[X] [Cattle] Grant Artahias authority over the annual cattle drive [+1% tariff efficiency].
[X] [Mission] Illyrian Expedition: The time has come for more than a simple pirate-hunting expedition. For years Illyrian pirates have stalked the southern islands of the Liburni and threatened Eretrian trade eastwards. It is time for Eretria to seize these islands with a full expedition and establish a colony on the island of Issa, ending the threat of piracy in the Adriatic conclusively through the establishment of a new colony in the region for merchants to call home while building allies for Eretria among the Illyrians to ensure victory [3 Month campaign led by elected strategos, 500 Ekdromoi, 18 Triremes, 72 talents naval upkeep for campaign, if successful, new land for colony on Eastern Adriatic Island of Issa].
[X] [Cattle] Grant Artahias authority over the annual cattle drive [+1% tariff efficiency].
[X] [Italy] Lokri Epixephyrii. Although an ally of Syrakousai and Sparta, Lokri has begun to drift apart from her former friends in recent years due to the changing alliances and diplomatic situation in Italia, including the rise of Taras and the Peloponnesian War depriving them of aid. If we could gain an ally, Syrakousai would lose its only friend in Italy, though we would anger Rhegion and Krotone [-10 talents, Xenoparakletor will seek out an alliance with Lokri].
[X] [Mission] Illyrian Expedition: The time has come for more than a simple pirate-hunting expedition. For years Illyrian pirates have stalked the southern islands of the Liburni and threatened Eretrian trade eastwards. It is time for Eretria to seize these islands with a full expedition and establish a colony on the island of Issa, ending the threat of piracy in the Adriatic conclusively through the establishment of a new colony in the region for merchants to call home while building allies for Eretria among the Illyrians to ensure victory [3 Month campaign led by elected strategos, 500 Ekdromoi, 18 Triremes, 72 talents naval upkeep for campaign, if successful, new land for colony on Eastern Adriatic Island of Issa].
[X] [Italy] Lokri Epixephyrii. Although an ally of Syrakousai and Sparta, Lokri has begun to drift apart from her former friends in recent years due to the changing alliances and diplomatic situation in Italia, including the rise of Taras and the Peloponnesian War depriving them of aid. If we could gain an ally, Syrakousai would lose its only friend in Italy, though we would anger Rhegion and Krotone [-10 talents, Xenoparakletor will seek out an alliance with Lokri].
[X] [Mission] Illyrian Expedition: The time has come for more than a simple pirate-hunting expedition. For years Illyrian pirates have stalked the southern islands of the Liburni and threatened Eretrian trade eastwards. It is time for Eretria to seize these islands with a full expedition and establish a colony on the island of Issa, ending the threat of piracy in the Adriatic conclusively through the establishment of a new colony in the region for merchants to call home while building allies for Eretria among the Illyrians to ensure victory [3 Month campaign led by elected strategos, 500 Ekdromoi, 18 Triremes, 72 talents naval upkeep for campaign, if successful, new land for colony on Eastern Adriatic Island of Issa].
- Location
- USA
I feel that this turn rolls makes up for Drakonia poor showing last election where they won no minor offices.
I do like that we are keeping them honest and that everyone is feeling things out. I also am coming around to liking Arthas as leader of the Mesappii.
[X] [Mission] Illyrian Expedition: The time has come for more than a simple pirate-hunting expedition. For years Illyrian pirates have stalked the southern islands of the Liburni and threatened Eretrian trade eastwards. It is time for Eretria to seize these islands with a full expedition and establish a colony on the island of Issa, ending the threat of piracy in the Adriatic conclusively through the establishment of a new colony in the region for merchants to call home while building allies for Eretria among the Illyrians to ensure victory [3 Month campaign led by elected strategos, 500 Ekdromoi, 18 Triremes, 72 talents naval upkeep for campaign, if successful, new land for colony on Eastern Adriatic Island of Issa].
Edit- added in the other two votes
[X] [Cattle] Grant Artahias authority over the annual cattle drive [+1% tariff efficiency].
[X] [Italy] Krotone. Once the hegemon of the western Italiotes, Krotone's star has fallen significantly. However, they still constitute a significant force and have strong relations with the minor cities of the region. If they were to be swayed into alliance and friendship, the main challenge remaining would be to reconcile them with the ambitious Thuriians [-10 talents, Xenoparakletor will seek out alliance with Krotone].
I do like that we are keeping them honest and that everyone is feeling things out. I also am coming around to liking Arthas as leader of the Mesappii.
[X] [Mission] Illyrian Expedition: The time has come for more than a simple pirate-hunting expedition. For years Illyrian pirates have stalked the southern islands of the Liburni and threatened Eretrian trade eastwards. It is time for Eretria to seize these islands with a full expedition and establish a colony on the island of Issa, ending the threat of piracy in the Adriatic conclusively through the establishment of a new colony in the region for merchants to call home while building allies for Eretria among the Illyrians to ensure victory [3 Month campaign led by elected strategos, 500 Ekdromoi, 18 Triremes, 72 talents naval upkeep for campaign, if successful, new land for colony on Eastern Adriatic Island of Issa].
Edit- added in the other two votes
[X] [Cattle] Grant Artahias authority over the annual cattle drive [+1% tariff efficiency].
[X] [Italy] Krotone. Once the hegemon of the western Italiotes, Krotone's star has fallen significantly. However, they still constitute a significant force and have strong relations with the minor cities of the region. If they were to be swayed into alliance and friendship, the main challenge remaining would be to reconcile them with the ambitious Thuriians [-10 talents, Xenoparakletor will seek out alliance with Krotone].
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Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
@Cetashwayo I have a question. If we establish a colony on Issa, does this also mean that the nearby greek colonies will fall beneath our hegemony?
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
No, why would they?
Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
Would their be opportunities in the future to draw them beneath our wing though?
Walker Of Chaos
Best/Worst Dynasty
- Location
- Sweden
If we want the Adriatic Greeks in the League we're gonna need to send triremesa "friendship delegation".
- Location
- Central Europe
[X] [Cattle] Grant Artahias authority over the annual cattle drive [+1% tariff efficiency].
[X] [Italy] Krotone. Once the hegemon of the western Italiotes, Krotone's star has fallen significantly. However, they still constitute a significant force and have strong relations with the minor cities of the region. If they were to be swayed into alliance and friendship, the main challenge remaining would be to reconcile them with the ambitious Thuriians [-10 talents, Xenoparakletor will seek out alliance with Krotone].
[X] [Mission] Illyrian Expedition: The time has come for more than a simple pirate-hunting expedition. For years Illyrian pirates have stalked the southern islands of the Liburni and threatened Eretrian trade eastwards. It is time for Eretria to seize these islands with a full expedition and establish a colony on the island of Issa, ending the threat of piracy in the Adriatic conclusively through the establishment of a new colony in the region for merchants to call home while building allies for Eretria among the Illyrians to ensure victory [3 Month campaign led by elected strategos, 500 Ekdromoi, 18 Triremes, 72 talents naval upkeep for campaign, if successful, new land for colony on Eastern Adriatic Island of Issa].
I believe that Artahias is indeed the next Harpos, and the increased funds from elevating him certainly help the city in these spending intensive years. Let us support Artahias here, for Barbaroi kings whose power to rule stems from our support are less likely to forget, that they fall under Eretria Eskhata's hēgemonía.
For our choice of ally I favor mighty Krotone! Our only war with them ended on amicable terms, and there are many practical reasons to prefer them. For one it is only in coordination with Krotone that our ally Thurii might have a chance of ending the Bruttii threat. Also, of these three Krotone is the most likely to align with Taras against us and Thurii. Choosing Lokri seems to make us more enemies than allies. Finally, the choice of Rhegion is made less by the upset that it would cause to our existing relationships. Good relations with the Sikeliote League seem paramount, as the Congress of Gela looms.
Lastly, the Illyrian Expedition has my full support. Even more so now, that we are planning to implement the colonial policy of the Demos Drakonia next year!
So speaks Gregorios, son of Alexios.
[X] [Italy] Krotone. Once the hegemon of the western Italiotes, Krotone's star has fallen significantly. However, they still constitute a significant force and have strong relations with the minor cities of the region. If they were to be swayed into alliance and friendship, the main challenge remaining would be to reconcile them with the ambitious Thuriians [-10 talents, Xenoparakletor will seek out alliance with Krotone].
[X] [Mission] Illyrian Expedition: The time has come for more than a simple pirate-hunting expedition. For years Illyrian pirates have stalked the southern islands of the Liburni and threatened Eretrian trade eastwards. It is time for Eretria to seize these islands with a full expedition and establish a colony on the island of Issa, ending the threat of piracy in the Adriatic conclusively through the establishment of a new colony in the region for merchants to call home while building allies for Eretria among the Illyrians to ensure victory [3 Month campaign led by elected strategos, 500 Ekdromoi, 18 Triremes, 72 talents naval upkeep for campaign, if successful, new land for colony on Eastern Adriatic Island of Issa].
I believe that Artahias is indeed the next Harpos, and the increased funds from elevating him certainly help the city in these spending intensive years. Let us support Artahias here, for Barbaroi kings whose power to rule stems from our support are less likely to forget, that they fall under Eretria Eskhata's hēgemonía.
For our choice of ally I favor mighty Krotone! Our only war with them ended on amicable terms, and there are many practical reasons to prefer them. For one it is only in coordination with Krotone that our ally Thurii might have a chance of ending the Bruttii threat. Also, of these three Krotone is the most likely to align with Taras against us and Thurii. Choosing Lokri seems to make us more enemies than allies. Finally, the choice of Rhegion is made less by the upset that it would cause to our existing relationships. Good relations with the Sikeliote League seem paramount, as the Congress of Gela looms.
Lastly, the Illyrian Expedition has my full support. Even more so now, that we are planning to implement the colonial policy of the Demos Drakonia next year!
So speaks Gregorios, son of Alexios.
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[X] [Cattle] Grant Artahias authority over the annual cattle drive [+1% tariff efficiency].
[X] [Italy] Lokri Epixephyrii. Although an ally of Syrakousai and Sparta, Lokri has begun to drift apart from her former friends in recent years due to the changing alliances and diplomatic situation in Italia, including the rise of Taras and the Peloponnesian War depriving them of aid. If we could gain an ally, Syrakousai would lose its only friend in Italy, though we would anger Rhegion and Krotone [-10 talents, Xenoparakletor will seek out an alliance with Lokri].
[X] [Mission] Illyrian Expedition: The time has come for more than a simple pirate-hunting expedition. For years Illyrian pirates have stalked the southern islands of the Liburni and threatened Eretrian trade eastwards. It is time for Eretria to seize these islands with a full expedition and establish a colony on the island of Issa, ending the threat of piracy in the Adriatic conclusively through the establishment of a new colony in the region for merchants to call home while building allies for Eretria among the Illyrians to ensure victory [3 Month campaign led by elected strategos, 500 Ekdromoi, 18 Triremes, 72 talents naval upkeep for campaign, if successful, new land for colony on Eastern Adriatic Island of Issa].
[X] [Italy] Lokri Epixephyrii. Although an ally of Syrakousai and Sparta, Lokri has begun to drift apart from her former friends in recent years due to the changing alliances and diplomatic situation in Italia, including the rise of Taras and the Peloponnesian War depriving them of aid. If we could gain an ally, Syrakousai would lose its only friend in Italy, though we would anger Rhegion and Krotone [-10 talents, Xenoparakletor will seek out an alliance with Lokri].
[X] [Mission] Illyrian Expedition: The time has come for more than a simple pirate-hunting expedition. For years Illyrian pirates have stalked the southern islands of the Liburni and threatened Eretrian trade eastwards. It is time for Eretria to seize these islands with a full expedition and establish a colony on the island of Issa, ending the threat of piracy in the Adriatic conclusively through the establishment of a new colony in the region for merchants to call home while building allies for Eretria among the Illyrians to ensure victory [3 Month campaign led by elected strategos, 500 Ekdromoi, 18 Triremes, 72 talents naval upkeep for campaign, if successful, new land for colony on Eastern Adriatic Island of Issa].
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
AwwwwwwwAbsolutely, but it doesn't just happen spontaneously
I am a sad panda now.
Edit: Would it be possible to rope that tiny islet to the west of Issa into the deal?
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