Magical Girl Escalation Taylor (Worm/Nanoha)

I'm just pointing out that Shas's concern is a valid one above and beyond typical intra-national braindrain.
Uh... no it isn't. This isn't East Germany or Russia. WOG, Belka is what happened when folks broke the uplifting rule.

You know, the folks who made the biggest interdimensional mass-genocide since Al-hazred went and fucked off.
In a few thousand years most of Bet's Mages, and every one worth a damn, might be tracing their ancestry back to Taylor. Which wont happen if the TSAB lures her away. Which isnt just brain drain but potentially reverse-eugenics preventing Bet-humans from growing into magical talent. Not unlike stealing the very first Clever Monkey. Sure, other monkeys might make the leap in time, but there is no guarantee of that and you are inarguably doing the species a disservice as a whole, even if its great for that one monkey.
If the TSAB takes Taylor away from Bet, Bet basically loses any chance of becoming a magical society in the vein of Midchilda or Belka since they lack the numbers of natural mages that would allow them to notice magic being a thing, let alone science the fuck out of it enough to reach that level.
And that's not how Linker Cores work. You seem to be under the impression that through basic genetics or IAE, they can be made more common or made better.

They can't. Once a magic-rare backwater, always a magic-rare backwater. Technology or genetics doesn't change that. In fact, that sort of thing is called Artificial Mages. It's a dead-end project.

If you want to talk about how Earth Bet is fucked, point fingers at the remaining members of Cauldron and folks who took potions from them. They're the last pieces of stability the world has before its just Undersider-sized groups squatting in small villages. And the Triumverate's not made putting what they can together a priority.
 
And now an actual question about "what to install into Vista's arm"... @Silently Watches, does Vista's arm have enough space and power supply to install a proper Wave Motion Gun? Or, well, a beam cannon the size of a Starlight Breaker to put it into Nanoha terms? Or would that require too powerful a reactor?

I'm not talking about the actual spell, no, I just wonder whether she would be able to install a comparable beam cannon. Because I don't doubt that she'd eventually decide that she wants a beam cannon.
 
And that's not how Linker Cores work. You seem to be under the impression that through basic genetics or IAE, they can be made more common or made better.

They can't. Once a magic-rare backwater, always a magic-rare backwater. Technology or genetics doesn't change that. In fact, that sort of thing is called Artificial Mages. It's a dead-end project.

If you want to talk about how Earth Bet is fucked, point fingers at the remaining members of Cauldron and folks who took potions from them. They're the last pieces of stability the world has before its just Undersider-sized groups squatting in small villages. And the Triumverate's not made putting what they can together a priority.
I may be somewhat foggy... but i know that magic ran in Nanoha's family. Her mother and both older siblings all have above-average Linker Cores (in a world where you are extremely unlikely to have one at all), and this has been the case long enough for them to have developed a system of semi practical combat magic mixed with their family's martial arts. Theres also things like Rare Skills, belkan genetic foolery that effect magic, and a couple other such things that all seem rather hereditary.

If its hereditary, then its genetic... or something that behaves like genetics. Assuming there isnt some weird rule that it doesnt spread to 'branch' families, then its quite possibly the most valuable inheritable trait on any planet, and Taylor is the only known holder of a high quality Linker Core on Bet IIRC. In canon, there is no reason to assume Nanoha's hypothetical children wouldnt have continued to possess above average linker cores, and their children... and theirs....

Also, Artifical Mages are not so much a dead end as morally questionable as fuck... nearly all the examples we see from canon produced fairly powerful mages; Erio, Fate, Jail, Vivo, etc...
 
And now an actual question about "what to install into Vista's arm"... @Silently Watches, does Vista's arm have enough space and power supply to install a proper Wave Motion Gun? Or, well, a beam cannon the size of a Starlight Breaker to put it into Nanoha terms? Or would that require too powerful a reactor?

I'm not talking about the actual spell, no, I just wonder whether she would be able to install a comparable beam cannon. Because I don't doubt that she'd eventually decide that she wants a beam cannon.
That's a little bigger than what can fit in a prosthetic. And by "a little bigger", I mean WHOA BOY that's big. Something of this size I would probably require Tim to have the Large Weapons skill, and those kinds of weapons can't fit into prostheses.
And that's not how Linker Cores work. You seem to be under the impression that through basic genetics or IAE, they can be made more common or made better.

They can't. Once a magic-rare backwater, always a magic-rare backwater. Technology or genetics doesn't change that. In fact, that sort of thing is called Artificial Mages. It's a dead-end project.
I may be somewhat foggy... but i know that magic ran in Nanoha's family. Her mother and both older siblings all have above-average Linker Cores (in a world where you are extremely unlikely to have one at all), and this has been the case long enough for them to have developed a system of semi practical combat magic mixed with their family's martial arts. Theres also things like Rare Skills, belkan genetic foolery that effect magic, and a couple other such things that all seem rather hereditary.

If its hereditary, then its genetic... or something that behaves like genetics. Assuming there isnt some weird rule that it doesnt spread to 'branch' families, then its quite possibly the most valuable inheritable trait on any planet, and Taylor is the only known holder of a high quality Linker Core on Bet IIRC. In canon, there is no reason to assume Nanoha's hypothetical children wouldnt have continued to possess above average linker cores, and their children... and theirs....

Also, Artifical Mages are not so much a dead end as morally questionable as fuck... nearly all the examples we see from canon produced fairly powerful mages; Erio, Fate, Jail, Vivo, etc...
Magic is genetic and heritable. That's canon. Per maybe-canon or at least per Aleph and definitely in this quest, it is a mitochondrial-liked trait, passed down from mother to children. So yes, technically you could increase the number of mages on Earth Bet. But because a Linker Core yields no evolutionary benefit in an advanced magic-naive world, the only way you'd turn Earth Bet or this cluster-world into one with a large number of mages is through selective breeding programs, which tend to be… looked poorly upon, let's say.

It doesn't help that because magic is inherited from the mother, you can't just freeze sperm from male mages and use it for artificial insemination in willing women. Female mages would have to be treated like broodmares, pumping out kids as fast as their bodies could handle. Or egg donation and surrogates, but that would require a lot of surgery on a lot of women, most of whom would probably say no.

This is the real reason why low-magic worlds tend to stay low-magic. It's not a theoretical impossibility, just a insurmountable transition from theory to practice.
 
Also, Artifical Mages are not so much a dead end as morally questionable as fuck... nearly all the examples we see from canon produced fairly powerful mages; Erio, Fate, Jail, Vivo, etc...
That's taking what are clearly isolated successes, and calling them the norm. There aren't a bunch of Jails, Fates, and Vivos running around.

Trust me, I know that phenomenon when I see it, it's a really common problem with analysis of Shounen and Magical Girl shows.
Magic is genetic and heritable. That's canon. Per maybe-canon or at least per Aleph and definitely in this quest, it is a mitochondrial-liked trait, passed down from mother to children. So yes, technically you could increase the number of mages on Earth Bet. But because a Linker Core yields no evolutionary benefit in an advanced magic-naive world, the only way you'd turn Earth Bet or this cluster-world into one with a large number of mages is through selective breeding programs, which tend to be… looked poorly upon, let's say.

It doesn't help that because magic is inherited from the mother, you can't just freeze sperm from male mages and use it for artificial insemination in willing women. Female mages would have to be treated like broodmares, pumping out kids as fast as their bodies could handle. Or egg donation and surrogates, but that would require a lot of surgery on a lot of women, most of whom would probably say no.

This is the real reason why low-magic worlds tend to stay low-magic. It's not a theoretical impossibility, just a insurmountable transition from theory to practice.
Ah, so the truth is roughly in between me and chaotic with info neither of us touched on.
 
That's taking what are clearly isolated successes, and calling them the norm. There aren't a bunch of Jails, Fates, and Vivos running around.

Trust me, I know that phenomenon when I see it, it's a really common problem with analysis of Shounen and Magical Girl shows.
Worth noting there are infact 12 Jails, one in the womb of each Number cyborg, he planned to use it as a form of immortality, but could easily have put them all in incubation pods and had a dozen clones of himself active at once.

And there could easily have been a dozen Fates as there was one, given that she herself was a successful AM, just her mother didnt want a dozen (and infact, didnt want her.)
 
Worth noting there are infact 12 Jails, one in the womb of each Number cyborg, he planned to use it as a form of immortality, but could easily have put them all in incubation pods and had a dozen clones of himself active at once.

And there could easily have been a dozen Fates as there was one, given that she herself was a successful AM, just her mother didnt want a dozen (and infact, didnt want her.)
It's like you're intentionally missing what I'm saying. Outside people involve with Project Fate, there aren't any examples of it working. Jail is the only person who can pull off the technology and intricacies of the Project Fate memory transfer. It's straight-up comic book 'only this person understands the technology' Mad Science. Thus, it's not normal.
 
Plus it gives her a reason to port over the Ghost in the Shell SAC anime from Earth Aleph (or have Taylor go there to purchase a copy for her).

IOn other note.... anyone wanna theorycraft ideas for the weapons for Vista's arm before we have to actually vote on it?

Yaaay anime binge!

Relatedly, I'd mentioned before, but one specific upgrade I really want us to give Vista is not part of her arm, but actually an eye. Specifically, something like Saito from Ghost in the Shell.


It seems like the perfect complement to Vista's skills really, since she's all about playing around with ranges. Plus.... I know some people want her to be a spear-user, but if all she does is mess with the distances between herself and target.... it doesn't really matter if the spear thrust is coming from a kilometer away and aimed for the heart, if its still baseline fourteen-year-old-Missy behind the thrust. Maybe hard light or tiny-rockets behind the spearhead (a bit like Raging Heart venting steam? :p ) would help, but I'd still much rather see that same Cape warping distance to make impossible shots with a recoil-controlled (via cyberarm-pistons or a tripod that shoves hard-light spikes into the ground or otherwise) anti-material rifle, wouldn't you?


Imagine a pillar duel like this, only with Vista's power! (Also this is a prime episode to suggest she watches really, along with maybe some spoilery ones like the end of first series with Section 9 getting rounded up... Motoko badass moments, in other words)

Not that I want her using Skill Wires in a world of Tinkers and Thinkers, mind....better to figure out how to mix AI-tech and hard-light projectors to make her a stylish training room :V
 
On other note.... anyone wanna theorycraft ideas for the weapons for Vista's arm before we have to actually vote on it? Assuming we have free reign within reason... might be beneficial to think ahead?
Just remember: Armor is free, it does not take a slot up. We just need to remember to vote for it.
It seems like the perfect complement to Vista's skills really, since she's all about playing around with ranges. Plus.... I know some people want her to be a spear-user, but if all she does is mess with the distances between herself and target.... it doesn't really matter if the spear thrust is coming from a kilometer away and aimed for the heart, if its still baseline fourteen-year-old-Missy behind the thrust.
There's a big issue with any kind of melee combination with guns: A bayonet is just a spear.

Now, while we have super-strength behind one arm, I would suggest making that the main melee weapon. We can do things like make matter-disruptor fields or super-heat it, but unless we want to introduce the fist changing into something like a hard-light shield, sword, or Crescent Rose-style scythe, our best bet is having Vista Doomfist stuff.
I'd still much rather see that same Cape warping distance to make impossible shots with a recoil-controlled (via cyberarm-pistons or a tripod that shoves hard-light spikes into the ground or otherwise) anti-material rifle, wouldn't you?
As for weapons... well, going Crescent Rose would kinda be the way to go. We're wanting to make Vista a ranged combatant, so while we've got the fist's thruster mobility, a long-range attack would both benefit from Vista's power and not suffer is for whatever reason Vista doesn't use her power. It's also a pretty adaptable system: It didn't take much modification to turn an M82 Barret into a 25mm A-M rifle.;)
 
It doesn't help that because magic is inherited from the mother, you can't just freeze sperm from male mages and use it for artificial insemination in willing women. Female mages would have to be treated like broodmares, pumping out kids as fast as their bodies could handle. Or egg donation and surrogates, but that would require a lot of surgery on a lot of women, most of whom would probably say no.

This is the real reason why low-magic worlds tend to stay low-magic. It's not a theoretical impossibility, just a insurmountable transition from theory to practice.
Eh, not so much. This is One of the things the various Artificial Womb projects are looking into, and China's published research is looking pretty promising. Given that china only ever publishes their old stuff as brag sheets, they've probably already solved that issue. It's driving Japan nuts, because up until a few months ago they thought they were the furthest along on that tech tree.
Magic is genetic and heritable. That's canon. Per maybe-canon or at least per Aleph and definitely in this quest, it is a mitochondrial-liked trait, passed down from mother to children. So yes, technically you could increase the number of mages on Earth Bet. But because a Linker Core yields no evolutionary benefit in an advanced magic-naive world, the only way you'd turn Earth Bet or this cluster-world into one with a large number of mages is through selective breeding programs, which tend to be… looked poorly upon, let's say.
Not as much as you might think. Hypergamy is a massive issue right now. And make magic and it's heredity known.....heh. People would love the idea of being able to become a parahuman without a trigger event. And love that it's something you can relaiably pass onto your kids more. A breeding program isn't specifically needed. Even ignoring the reply above.

Worse that whether 1 in 20 or 1 in 50, that's still LOADS better than the parahuman rate of 1 in 8K-20K it is now depending on your region.
 
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So weapons being beam sword, ranged weapon (because people will vote for it, even if vista can beamstab you from anywhere in LoS) Fist of Justice (shouldn't require a slot) and then... I dunno. We have three.


And I'm pretty sure we can just have Tim build a supertech rangefinder headset. I think it was Silently who brought up Garrus' hardlight HUD, which could easily do that.
 
Magic is genetic and heritable. That's canon. Per maybe-canon or at least per Aleph and definitely in this quest, it is a mitochondrial-liked trait, passed down from mother to children. So yes, technically you could increase the number of mages on Earth Bet. But because a Linker Core yields no evolutionary benefit in an advanced magic-naive world, the only way you'd turn Earth Bet or this cluster-world into one with a large number of mages is through selective breeding programs, which tend to be… looked poorly upon, let's say.
And this is why dropping the whole "magic-naive" bit is important. Sure, going maximum eugenics would probably be looked upon poorly, but simply saying "hey, we're gonna do a big old scan and if you ping, you can become a Parahuman without the mindbending trauma, plus your kids will probably be able to as well" is a fancy way of telling people they're really likely to get some if they just tell people about it.

Y'know, that or we design and release a genetic retroviral through the water supply that gives everyone dormant "is a wizard" genes. Not as hard as you'd think, considering most water supplies already have flourine and oestrogen in them.
 
Y'know, that or we design and release a genetic retroviral through the water supply that gives everyone dormant "is a wizard" genes. Not as hard as you'd think, considering most water supplies already have flourine and oestrogen in them.
It's a little... harder than that. DNA/RNA are rather fragile. Massive molecules prone to breaking and mutating not quite spontaniously when working properly in ideal environments. Even boxing them in Viral Proteans for delivery faces the issue that you need literally one retrovirus for every cell, and they don't replicate like the flu does because A) you want that specific RNA, not some variant and B) the replication wetware destroys healthy cells and triggers an immune response. So you have to release trillions upon trillions of them into a water supply, enough for anyone who drinks it to very quickly receive a dose at critical mass so that they don't either become resistant to it, or suffer potential rejection issues as the infected parts of the body begin to differentiate themselves from the rest.

Better to do it in a lab setting.

This also doesn't take into account that apparently magic in Nanoha deals heavily with Mitochondrial DNA, over Human DNA. Mitochondria are trickier to replicate, but easier to adopt into a host body. You'll have to change both in order to make things work. This is where the "its in the water" would be... not useful, but much much easier to do.
 
What about a Laser canon arm in the style of Samus Arns powersuit, but with manipulator fingers around the barrel.

Or like Megaman maybe. Can Tim manage a barrel arm that mechashifts a hand into place when needed?
 
Uh... no it isn't. This isn't East Germany or Russia. WOG, Belka is what happened when folks broke the uplifting rule.

You know, the folks who made the biggest interdimensional mass-genocide since Al-hazred went and fucked off.
I prefer to use Japan as an example.
It's undeniable, they did some major shit after their Westernization, but does it means they should have stay feudal backwater forever?
 
Uh... no it isn't. This isn't East Germany or Russia. WOG, Belka is what happened when folks broke the uplifting rule.

You know, the folks who made the biggest interdimensional mass-genocide since Al-hazred went and fucked off.

It's not like IOE will let it though, you know though it doing so could be very bad news.
 
Its worth noting that Shaseyu does have a good point though. The TSAB is obligated not to interfere in the development of primitive/nonmagical societies... much like star trek's Prime Directive with regards to Warp technology.

The difference being twofold;
Firstly, unlike the Federation... the TSAB seems to have a habit of grabbing any mages they happen to find on nonmagical works. That would be sorta like the Federation abducting any physicist who starts to twig onto Warp theory. Sure the Federation can offer a quality of life beyond the comprehension of most lower tech civilizations, but if they keep doing that then there wontbe any more warp-capable civilizations because the Federation is incidentally nipping future advancement by cutting it off at the roots. If the TSAB takes Taylor away from Bet, Bet basically loses any chance of becoming a magical society in the vein of Midchilda or Belka since they lack the numbers of natural mages that would allow them to notice magic being a thing, let alone science the fuck out of it enough to reach that level.

One thing I forgot to dispute is your comparison of the Federation abducting any physicist who starts to twig onto Warp theory.

The TSAB doesn't kidnap. It doesn't 'grab' mages. They just offer people with magical talent opportunity to sign up if they involve themselves in one of their operations (which often are to contain and seal lost logia that may have gotten to a magic naive world).

Hell. If the barrier that makes dimensional travel difficult can be taken down Taylor can just transit between TSAB space and Earth Bet.

Though frankly, given how Earth Bet is... I kinda doubt magic will help make it better. More than likely the various governments and groups will commit to horrific experiments to try to make mages or something.

Unless you think Taylor can prevent that somehow?
 
become a parahuman without a trigger event.
become a Parahuman without the mindbending trauma,
Just a quick FYI: Trigger Events, the mental trauma angle, and other details were intentionally kept from the populace of Earth Bet by Cauldron to minimize the amount of people trying to artificially force triggers. Not that folks didn't try anyway, but eh.
I prefer to use Japan as an example.
It's undeniable, they did some major shit after their Westernization, but does it means they should have stay feudal backwater forever?
It's not like IOE will let it though, you know though it doing so could be very bad news.
I have the same reply to both of you: I do not understand your reply, could you clarify?
Shas, why is Japan a relevant example?
eragon, what does Immortal Assimilation do to prevent Earth Bet from going Belka?
 
The TSAB doesn't kidnap. It doesn't 'grab' mages. They just offer people with magical talent opportunity to sign up if they involve themselves in one of their operations (which often are to contain and seal lost logia that may have gotten to a magic naive world).
You are correct, the TSAB doesn't kidnap mages, and gives an offer only to mages who accidentally found themselves in the middle of Lost Logia crysis. Trouble is, these mages are the only ones that actually matters. If a stable magical tradition wasn't established in a thousand of years, chance it will appear without outside interference, are miniscule. By offering a job to any mage that found out about them, the TSAB nullifies consequences of such an interference, and ensure that non-magical worlds remain non-magical.

Of course, mages in question can refuse, but, as @Hate Fish said, it's difficult to refuse, because the TSAB offers much more than a non-magical world capable to. Actually, a non-magical world cannot offer anything, because they have no idea what's going on!
And, I'm quite sure, if the mage asks why the world cannot be informed about magic and the TSAB, the TSAB will truthfully answer that it's a horrible idea. It will cause chaos, governments will start new arms race, with the mage in question as the focal point of it. Whatever happens next, it will surely destroy their life and hurt hundreds of other people.

So, it looks like to take the TSAB's offer is the most beneficial for all sides.
The mage will have a chance to develop and use their powers.
The TSAB will receive additional asset to deal with their many problems.
The non-magical world will avoid chaos and uncertainties of the First Contact and/or the Magical Revolution. But, of course, it's only beneficial in short-term.

Because magic is incredibly useful tool, capable to drastically improve quality of life.
Because magic is the only way to fight magical threats.
And, while revealing of magic will certainly be hurtful, every major development in humanity's history was hurtful.
The Industrial Revolution hurted thousands of people, the atrocious Soviet Industrialisation hurted millions, but I, for one, glad they happened.

Though frankly, given how Earth Bet is... I kinda doubt magic will help make it better. More than likely the various governments and groups will commit to horrific experiments to try to make mages or something.
It surely wouldn't hurt.
Parahumans are the main problem of Earth-Bet. Even with Zion gone, even after Endbringers will be defeated, triggers continue to happen. Damaged people, additionally conditioned to provide maximal conflict, continue to receive incredible powers and use them for their own advantage, which usually means crime.
The result is obvious: the USA, probably the most well-off and stable country in the world, have triple more villains than heroes, and even that only thanks to Cauldron's meddling. Meanwhile half of the world already in a state of parahuman feudalism. Without Cauldron this process will continue until Earth-Bet civilization ends.

Introduction of magic let us reverse this process. Unlike parahumans, mages don't necessary have psychological traumas, they need to be trained and need to have a Device to be actually effective.
As long as we control magical knowledge and Device construction, we can guarantee our mages will bolster law-enforcement and not criminals.

Of course, other countries won't be happy with the US strengthening, but people who can start 'horrific experiments to try to make mages', are already doing such an experiments to make parahumans, so... *shrug*


Shas, why is Japan a relevant example?
Because it's the closest example of what I want to do with Earth-Bet.
Not uplift, but modernisation.
 
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